Frenzied Berserker?

[sambouchah]

When I play Chargers, I go with Whirling Frenzy Lion Totem Barbarian 1/X ToB Class/X X. I just heard someone on another thread suggest Frenzied Berserkers are overpowered, is this true? I just took a look at them and I feel the only thing they have really going for them is their +10 Strength and x4 Power Attack when using a THW at higher levels(not to belittle these fantastic melee boons). What am I missing?

Thanks,
Sam

[Z3ro]

Nothing; all they do is deal damage, which, as everyone knows, is just about the least efficient way to end an encounter and is obsolete at higher levels.

[sambouchah]

Nothing; all they do is deal damage, which, as everyone knows, is just about the least efficient way to end an encounter and is obsolete at higher levels.

Okay good! I was thinking has my Optimization training failed me?

I could see it being fantastic in a Kick-Down-the-Door no skill required game. But those are never fun.

[RedMage125]

Okay good! I was thinking has my Optimization training failed me?

I could see it being fantastic in a Kick-Down-the-Door no skill required game. But those are never fun.

I don't know about NEVER fun. I've had some fun every now and then with a little mindless, dice-chucking monster-slaying hootnannies.

Also, I don't see how "doing damage" is poor way to end an encounter.

The most effecient status effect in terms of Battlefield Control is Dead. An enemy who is shaken, sickened, and fatigued at 5 hps can still attack (or worse, cast a spell). An enemy who died last round does no damge this round.

[Dr. Azkur]

The most effecient status effect in terms of Battlefield Control is Dead. An enemy who is shaken, sickened, and fatigued at 5 hps can still attack (or worse, cast a spell). An enemy who died last round does no damge this round.

Hah. Added to my sigged for truth and chuckles.

[VoxRationis]

Also, I don't see how "doing damage" is poor way to end an encounter.

The most effecient status effect in terms of Battlefield Control is Dead. An enemy who is shaken, sickened, and fatigued at 5 hps can still attack (or worse, cast a spell). An enemy who died last round does no damge this round.

Seriously. Except for things like use of flesh to stone or certain other spells, which I do not advise using because a single save completely negates them, most victories in D&D include the losers dying. All the other stuff makes it a lot easier to kill them, and I don't dispute that. But at some point, you need the damage.
In any case, Frenzied Berserkers are great in games where the enemies aren't mage-lords dueling each other with high-level spells. Or roleplaying-heavy games, I suppose; there's not much you can do for intrigue in that case.

[A Tad Insane]

Seriously. Except for things like use of flesh to stone or certain other spells, which I do not advise using because a single save completely negates them, most victories in D&D include the losers dying. All the other stuff makes it a lot easier to kill them, and I don't dispute that. But at some point, you need the damage.

The very words the mailman is based around. Save or dies are generally more effective, but rolling every die at the table has its charm.

[Sir Chuckles]

Seriously. Except for things like use of flesh to stone or certain other spells, which I do not advise using because a single save completely negates them, most victories in D&D include the losers dying. All the other stuff makes it a lot easier to kill them, and I don't dispute that. But at some point, you need the damage.
In any case, Frenzied Berserkers are great in games where the enemies aren't mage-lords dueling each other with high-level spells. Or roleplaying-heavy games, I suppose; there's not much you can do for intrigue in that case.

Well, the roleplay-heavy side is incorrect. Any class can do well in roleplay, as you roleplay with your character, not your class. Skill checks may come up, but then it's not quite roleplay heavy.

Anyway, Frenzied Berserker is definitely an ubercharger. Significant (stacking!) strength bonus, combined with Inspire Frenzy and Deathless Frenzy for all kinds of ridiculous fun times.
That said, the whole "Runs out of enemies before Frenzy ends=attacks friends, or DC 20 Will" is a pretty serious consideration, especially if you have a bad Will.

[VoxRationis]

Well, the roleplay-heavy side is incorrect. Any class can do well in roleplay, as you roleplay with your character, not your class. Skill checks may come up, but then it's not quite roleplay heavy.

Anyway, Frenzied Berserker is definitely an ubercharger. Significant (stacking!) strength bonus, combined with Inspire Frenzy and Deathless Frenzy for all kinds of ridiculous fun times.
That said, the whole "Runs out of enemies before Frenzy ends=attacks friends, or DC 20 Will" is a pretty serious consideration, especially if you have a bad Will.

Truth with the roleplaying aspect, but I find that intrigue-type NPCs often don't like characters whose persona is entirely based around hitting things, and skills like Disguise, Forgery, and Bluff, which frequently come into intrigue-heavy campaigns, aren't the FB's forte.

As for Will, well, that's not too hard to pump up and rage gives you a bonus to it anyway. I DM'ed with a player who ran a frenzied berserker and he made his saves without fail.

[Sir Chuckles]

Truth with the roleplaying aspect, but I find that intrigue-type NPCs often don't like characters whose persona is entirely based around hitting things, and skills like Disguise, Forgery, and Bluff, which frequently come into intrigue-heavy campaigns, aren't the FB's forte.

As for Will, well, that's not too hard to pump up and rage gives you a bonus to it anyway. I DM'ed with a player who ran a frenzied berserker and he made his saves without fail.

Emphasis on "if you have bad Will".

And, well, intrigue does not always equal roleplay. Besides, you don't need any skills to roleplay.

[VoxRationis]

I'm sorry; I'll amend my statement to "intrigue-heavy campaigns."

[Andezzar]

Skill checks may come up, but then it's not quite roleplay heavy.The number of skill checks has nothing to do with how roleplay heavy a game is, unless you are advocating playing yourself instead of your character. Skill checks merely determine whether the actions a character takes are successful or not, whether it is appropriate to take that action is the roleplaying.

While dead is a great condition for BFC, it is not much better than helpless. Additionally a frenzied berserker can only inflict that condition on one or two creatures/round whereas there are other options for casters to inflict similarly debilitating conditions on more enemies.

[Sir Chuckles]

The number of skill checks has nothing to do with how roleplay heavy a game is, unless you are advocating playing yourself instead of your character. Skill checks merely determine whether the actions a character takes are successful or not, whether it is appropriate to take that action is the roleplaying.

While dead is a great condition for BFC, it is not much better than helpless. Additionally a frenzied berserker can only inflict that condition on one or two creatures/round whereas there are other options for casters to inflict similarly debilitating conditions on more enemies.

It has some correlation. A well roleplayed scene shouldn't end with "Make a Diplomacy check to see if your long and eloquent speech matters at all". It can have some bearing, but it should rarely have the final say. For some obvious things, such as Craft or Forgery, it should, but words said in character should override the need for a hard dice roll.

Also, Supreme Cleave and a Reach weapon. Not infallible, but pretty great.

[nedz]

The trouble with FB is that you are going to fail the will save at some point. At this juncture the party better have a contingency plan or it's a TPK risk.


It has some correlation. A well roleplayed scene shouldn't end with "Make a Diplomacy check to see if your long and eloquent speech matters at all". It can have some bearing, but it should rarely have the final say. For some obvious things, such as Craft or Forgery, it should, but words said in character should override the need for a hard dice roll.

I prefer the approach of "Make a Diplomacy roll and then role play the result". For low Cha - no Diplomacy characters this can be hilarious.

[Z3ro]

I prefer the approach of "Make a Diplomacy roll and then role play the result". For low Cha - no Diplomacy characters this can be hilarious.

Complete derail, but I've never thought of doing this, and it sounds brilliant!

[georgie_leech]

Complete derail, but I've never thought of doing this, and it sounds brilliant!

Do it, it's great fun.

Intimidate 20: "Rolling a dagger between my fingers, I say that he should think harder about crossing me while staring him in the eye."

Intimidate 1: "Attempting to roll a dagger along my fingers, I instead nick my hand, curse, stumble backwards, and trip into a pile of trash."

[Andezzar]

I prefer the approach of "Make a Diplomacy roll and then role play the result". For low Cha - no Diplomacy characters this can be hilarious.Exactly. The dice roll should be the final arbiter of the result. No matter how eloquently a player can persuade an audience, if the skill roll does not back it up, there should be no positive result. If the roll is irrelevant you are not roleplaying your D&D character, you are doing some form of improv theater.

I always wonder why people expect that roleplaying involves more acting by the player than fighting or other physical feats.

[Incanur]

If you're going pure RAW, a frenzied berseker in a frenzy technically can't make balance checks, which is a pretty serious weakness. I don't think that's intended, as the barbarian's rage has a specific exception for balance, but it's RAW. :smallfrown:

[Andezzar]

If you're going pure RAW, a frenzied berseker in a frenzy technically can't make balance checks, which is a pretty serious weakness. I don't think that's intended, as the barbarian's rage has a specific exception for balance, but it's RAW. :smallfrown:It gets interesting when the character is both in a frenzy and a rage. Now he can both use balance and not use balance.

[ScrambledBrains]

It gets interesting when the character is both in a frenzy and a rage. Now he can both use balance and not use balance.

...So you're saying he's Schrodinger's Frenzied Beserker? :smallbiggrin:

[Andezzar]

Pretty much.

[cakellene]

Deathless Frenzy could be handy too.

[Valtu]

The most effecient status effect in terms of Battlefield Control is Dead. An enemy who is shaken, sickened, and fatigued at 5 hps can still attack (or worse, cast a spell). An enemy who died last round does no damge this round.

I've never felt compelled to turn a quote into a sig on any forum I've ever been a member of, but that's got me considering it hahaha.

[dantiesilva]

When I build frenzied berserkers I like to start with your base Druid, then go into Bear warrior, then berserker, then Frenzied berserker. It is so much fun and a lot of power

[Theomniadept]

That Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian Frenzied Berserker Leap Attack Shock Trooper build is powerful. Across the land you will be known as the most powerful warrior, as nobody would be able to fight you one-on-one.

You have heavy weaknesses however; despite needing Iron Will your Will saves are still mediocre at best, your Reflex saves say that you'll be using Deathless Frenzy to stay alive against blasters, and you need a 100% unmolested path to hit your target. No rough terrain, no cover, no concealment, straight-line path, line of sight, and I think if you use a method of flight then you can't make Jump checks (unless the RAW is broken witch is very likely) which means no doubling all your damage, plus miss chance and concealment mean that attacks will always have a chance of missing even if your attack bonus is 9001.

Traps? Spellcasters? Your job against those is to practice counting your fingers.

[RedMage125]

My only suggestion to add to this is that your FB chip in to buy the party cleric a Wand of Calm Emotions.

As long as the cleric is not the person being attacked by the FB, there's nothing in the RAW that says the FB percieves him as an enemy. And the FB can always willingly accept a spell from an ally.

So the cleric can reasonably keep the FB from attacking his friends...most of the time.

[Andezzar]

My only suggestion to add to this is that your FB chip in to buy the party cleric a Wand of Calm Emotions.

As long as the cleric is not the person being attacked by the FB, there's nothing in the RAW that says the FB percieves him as an enemy. And the FB can always willingly accept a spell from an ally.

So the cleric can reasonably keep the FB from attacking his friends...most of the time.A bag of marbles should also do the trick.