The Grappler who couldn't Grappleate

[PaucaTerrorem]

Keep seeing people say this PrC sucks for grapplers. How so?

[Zombulian]

I'm sorry hwat.
What are you asking about?

[eggynack]

Do you mean the reaping mauler? If you do, first, it's because the class doesn't grant abilities that make you significantly better at grappling, and second, it's because it has clever wrestling as a prerequisite, which requires small or medium size. Increased size is one of the most important components of grappling, due to the bonus, and because you can't grapple creatures who are too much bigger than you. The latter makes you actively worse at grappling, and the former means that you get nothing to make up for it, so reaping mauler is a net negative for grappling ability.

Edit: The former point could use a bit of elaboration. The first ability, improved grapple, is awful, as you're presumably a dedicated grappler, so postponing that feat until then is completely illogical. The second ability, mobility, obviously does nothing to aid grappling. Adept wrestling isn't the worst, but it's too marginal to make the class workable. The next ability, counter grapple, just, why would you even want that? Why would a dedicated grappler want to get out of a grapple. I mean, it could happen, but it's not really helping you do your thing. After that you get sleeper lock and devastating lock, which look decent, but the fact that they require a pin to operate means that you've already likely won if you can pull them off at all. Thus, you aren't particularly aided in your grappling.

[PaucaTerrorem]

Sorry. Yes I meant Reaping Mauler.

So it's not so much that it makes you worse at grappling, it's that it doesn't help as much as a grappling centered PrC should?

[Urpriest]

Sorry. Yes I meant Reaping Mauler.

So it's not so much that it makes you worse at grappling, it's that it doesn't help as much as a grappling centered PrC should?

Well, most grapplers get buffed to Large or larger size. Which in the case of Reaping Mauler means you lose several levels worth of class features permanently, since it's from Complete Warrior.

[VoxRationis]

Perhaps it's suboptimal because A) the designers didn't intend for people to be running around semi-permanently or permanently enlarged, and B) the designers knew the grapple rules were a pain and didn't want to encourage people to actually use them. If I were the DM and the fighter announced her intent to focus on grappling as her primary modus operandi, I would probably throw something heavy at her.

[Urpriest]

Perhaps it's suboptimal because A) the designers didn't intend for people to be running around semi-permanently or permanently enlarged, and B) the designers knew the grapple rules were a pain and didn't want to encourage people to actually use them. If I were the DM and the fighter announced her intent to focus on grappling as her primary modus operandi, I would probably throw something heavy at her.

It's not a matter of being permanently enlarged, though. If you are enlarged ever, at any point, you lose the class permanently.

[PaucaTerrorem]

And as soon as someone is enlarged they lose the use of Clever Wrestling, and thereby all class abilities. Is this correct?

[Urpriest]

And as soon as someone is enlarged they lose the use of Clever Wrestling, and thereby all class abilities. Is this correct?

Yup, that's how it works.

[eggynack]

Sorry. Yes I meant Reaping Mauler.

So it's not so much that it makes you worse at grappling, it's that it doesn't help as much as a grappling centered PrC should?
It does make you worse at grappling. If the clever wrestling prerequisite didn't exist, then it would only fail to help to the degree that it should. However, with clever wrestling actively harming your ability to function, the class has a net negative impact on a grappler. Ultimately, this means that a grappler would likely perform better with five levels of warrior than with five levels of reaping mauler.

As for the idea of not running around enlarged on a common basis, how? You literally cannot grab hold of an opponent that's more than one size larger than you are, and that's often going to be a decent percentage of enemies. As for the rules for grappling being too complicated, I rather disagree. They're complicated, sure, but they're not even close to the most onerous set of rules to learn in the game. Just look at the rules debates surrounding shape changing abilities. It's utterly ridiculous. It's also worth note that this isn't exactly the only grappling focused thing in the game. Black blood cultist exists, which is much better, and druids make for great grapplers. Arguing that this should be bad because grappling is stupid ignores the fact that improving this class still wouldn't make it the best choice for grappling.

[Haldir]

A quick and dirty houserule to fix this, besides removing the size limit, is to allow characters to grapple large characters by the legs or arms and use their own momentum against them. As a readied action when a large monster made an attack, the player and I rolled the grapples without size modifiers, and if the player matched it, the attack was negated. For every 5 that the players grapple check exceeded the monsters, I bumped up his effective size category by 1 or 2 (depending on circumstances, the monsters stance, who is was attacking, how my player described the grapple attempt to me, you know).

Made it more effective as a playstyle and makes a certain amount of sense, as a man with 25 strength should be able to crank on a giant monsters leg or arm pretty good, and if the giant is off-kilter or not expecting such sudden strength....

I also allowed other melee characters to bullrush large monsters legs, to try and trip them up. You figure a dragon or similar large monster probably has 10% of it's weight in one of it's legs? Depending on tghe creature, of course. That's a pretty easy thing to determine. Can this guys bullrush significantly move that amount of weight, based on what I know of carrying capacity from the SRD?

Still, watch out for Swallow Whole. Unless your party nature guy likes dissecting things.

[Starbuck_II]

And as soon as someone is enlarged they lose the use of Clever Wrestling, and thereby all class abilities. Is this correct?

Yes, unless you are a Leviathan Hunter Prc. They get Clever Wrestling without Prereqs. So they can be Reaping Mauling and large size.

[Kesnit]

Yes, unless you are a Leviathan Hunter Prc. They get Clever Wrestling without Prereqs. So they can be Reaping Mauling and large size.

There's also Half-Giant race, which "lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger." They're Medium, but count as Large for a lot of things. Has an LA+1 though. (I made a Half-Giant Monk/Psy Warrior grapple build for a game once. Worked pretty well.)

[Gnaeus]

Edit: The former point could use a bit of elaboration. The first ability, improved grapple, is awful, as you're presumably a dedicated grappler, so postponing that feat until then is completely illogical. The second ability, mobility, obviously does nothing to aid grappling. Adept wrestling isn't the worst, but it's too marginal to make the class workable. The next ability, counter grapple, just, why would you even want that? Why would a dedicated grappler want to get out of a grapple. I mean, it could happen, but it's not really helping you do your thing. After that you get sleeper lock and devastating lock, which look decent, but the fact that they require a pin to operate means that you've already likely won if you can pull them off at all. Thus, you aren't particularly aided in your grappling.

Let me add 2 more. The Save DCs for your specials should be str based, but they are Wis based, making your wrestler more MAD if you ever want them to be useful. The crummy version of improved grapple that maulers get is limited to light or no armor, so you can't even be wearing plate mail to prevent other people from beating on you while you are locked up in a grapple. Again, fighter or warrior levels would be a much better choice.

[SiuiS]

It's not a matter of being permanently enlarged, though. If you are enlarged ever, at any point, you lose the class permanently.

You lose the class abilities until you shrink again, rather. Not permanently unless there's a clause in the class saying as much.

[Starbuck_II]

You lose the class abilities until you shrink again, rather. Not permanently unless there's a clause in the class saying as much.

Sadly, Complete Warrior says their Prc are lost forever technically. No one knows why they did this.

[Incanur]

I guess reaping maulers take a vow of small or medium size and the gods punish them if they break it. :smallsmile:

[Thiyr]

Sadly, Complete Warrior says their Prc are lost forever technically. No one knows why they did this.

To clarify, it specifies a condition where you lose abilities, but CWar does not specify a condition where regaining prerequisites returns abilities, making it a permanent loss.

Thankfully, however the point is made moot due to an updated ruling in a later book providing the logical method to regain them. (RotD, see the link in my sig if you're curious)