STR or DEX magus?

[TheOneHawk]

I've done some looking on this particular question and found compelling arguments for both. In general, it appears that DEX is slightly better overall but honestly the difference appears to be fairly minute. Correct me if I'm missing anything but:

DEX pro's : Better AC until mid-late levels, can dump STR so doesn't need four separate stats to be at least decent, easier to get a race that helps you with your two main stats.

DEX con's : Can't power attack, or can but can't two hand ever, Much lower damage level 1-2, No feat selection until level 5

STR pro's : Feats are more versatile, can 2 hand when not casting with power attack for pretty solid damage when not using spells

STR con's : Weak AC early, MAD as a monk, no +str +int races (Except male Lashunta, which I could maybe talk my DM into)

Now, knowing this I would probably go for DEX magus as my first choice. However, there is one additional caveat for me. I want to use metamagic earlier than level 5. I have access to 2 basic traits and I'm thinking of getting magical lineage and metamagic master (wayang spellhunter) both on shocking grasp for free empowered shocking grasps. I wouldn't be able to do this until level 5, however, as I have no feat slots available. Level 7 intensify is pretty much a must and then level 9 maximize. That's a long time to wait. Would it be worth it to go STR magus just to metamagic earlier?

Thanks for any input!

[Hytheter]

Well, you can quicken your feat acquisition by dipping a level in Bard - specifically the Dervish of Dawn Archetype (also known as Dawnflower Dervish) (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/dawnflower-dervish) which gives you Dervish Dance as a bonus feat. This opens up your first and third level feat slots. Unfortunately it also slows down your class progression for everything else by a level

[Bearlock]

It always depends on starting level for me. At level 6/7+ str magus, opens more feats for metamagic use, overall more survivability due to higher AC (med armor) and less MAD. Str magus really only needs str, int and con, not really all that MAD. Start with a decent str and use level increases to bump int.

[Falcon X]

Just for the sake of it, I'll point out a game-breaker: http://ihititwithmyaxe.tumblr.com/post/46007651740/breaking-d-d-3-5-the-muscle-wizard-or-how-to

[TheOneHawk]

As ridiculous and awesome as that is, this is PF only, no 3.5 porting with this DM. My other DM allows it on a case by case basis and I feel this would be a serious case of the 'no'

Starting level is 3, btw. Party is a controller bard, barbarian and bomb specialist goblin alchemist.

[Yanisa]

DEX con's : Can't power attack

I would say wrong, but it depends on what sources your DM allows.
Let me introduce you to Piranha Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/piranha-strike-combat)! Power attack for Finesse. Not core, but paizo published.

[Hytheter]

I would say wrong, but it depends on what sources your DM allows.
Let me introduce you to Piranha Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/piranha-strike-combat)! Power attack for Finesse. Not core, but paizo published.

Doesn't work with Scimitar, as Scimitar is not a light weapon.

[Yanisa]

Doesn't work with Scimitar, as Scimitar is not a light weapon.

The OP didn't specify scimitars or a dervish dance build. But if you are desperately feat starved, you can drop Dervish and pick up the Agile enchant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/agile), allows you to "power attack" too. It does cost a bit so it comes far later in play, sadly.

Not sure what the better route is for Magus is, just tossing out options here.

[Hytheter]

The OP didn't specify scimitars or a dervish dance build. But if you are desperately feat starved, you can drop Dervish and pick up the Agile enchant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/agile), allows you to "power attack" too. It does cost a bit so it comes far later in play, sadly.

Not sure what the better route is for Magus is, just tossing out options here.

Isn't Dervish Dance basically assumed witha DEX Magus though? Especially since he's complaining about being locked into feats.
That said, Agile is a decent option, but it kicks in a fair bit later than Dervish Dance does, especially if you take the Dawflower Dip route.

[TheOneHawk]

Sorry, I should have been more specific. I am talking dervish when I say dex magus. In regards to the bard dip, it really doesn't fit the character theme, and I won't be able to use much of anything except the feat from bard with 7 cha.

[Shinken]

I like Dex magus better. Dex is a better stat than Str, since it applies to more skills and it is added to AC, initiative and Reflex saves. Str only modifies attack rolls, damage and carrying capacity and Dex can do everything but carrying capacity if you invest in it, while Str can't ever add to AC, initiative and Reflex saves. Str is only ever more important than Dex for two-handed weapon users and you're not doing that as a Magus.
As for the feats, you can use Dervish Dance early on, switch to an agile rapier when you have enough money and retrain Dervish Dance to something else.

[NightbringerGGZ]

The STR Magus will deal more damage, particularly during the first 5 levels. You have the option to hold a weapon in both hands and can pick up Power Attack. You will be more fragile during early levels however and will needs to spend some cash on consumables to boost your AC.

The DEX Magus has the choice of either dealing less physical damage to gain an additional dump stat, or boost STR to 13 for Power Attack to deal slightly less damage than the STR build inorder to be slightly less easy to hit at the early levels.

Long term, I personally think the STR Magus wins out as you'll have plenty of spells to boost your defenses in ways that are better than simple AC boosts.

Note, we're getting a new feat for Dex to Damage in the ACG. If it works with at least one finessable weapon then the DEX build is probably the best option (as you'll qualify for Piranha Strike).

[Psyren]

You only need 13 Str to power attack, so if you want it that badly just set your Str at 13 and forget it after that. What's your point buy/stat budget?

And really, most of your damage will come from intensified shocking grasps anyway.

[Person_Man]

It depends on your ability score spread.

If you have just one high attribute, don't play a Magus (or any melee build). It needs high Str or Dex for to-hit, Int high enough to cast spells, and Con 16ish+.

If you can get two high attributes (Str 16+ or Dex 16+, Int high enough to cast spells, and Con 16ish+) and then I would go with Dex based. In the short run you'll have better AC and Acrobatics. (Yes I'm aware it's not a class Skill. But that doesn't matter much for Pathfinder. If you're playing a melee build, invest in it). And at high levels Initiative generally determines victory.

If you can get three or more high attributes, then I would use Str based. Your Dex and all that comes with it will be decent that it's not worth the cost of giving up a bunch of Str based benefits to get marginally better Dex benefits.

This same general principle applies to almost all X to Y calculations.

[Psyren]

^ I disagree that they need 16 Con, 14 is fine for them (and is half the price PB-wise.) With defenses like Mirror Image and Shield to protect them in melee, as well as Vanish/Illusion of Calm/Bladed Dash to safely disengage, they can get by with fewer hitpoints. If you really need more, you can even pick up False Life via spell blending, which gives you roughly as much HP as the extra 2 points in Con would have.

[Person_Man]

^ I disagree that they need 16 Con, 14 is fine for them (and is half the price PB-wise.) With defenses like Mirror Image and Shield to protect them in melee, as well as Vanish/Illusion of Calm/Bladed Dash to safely disengage, they can get by with fewer hitpoints. If you really need more, you can even pick up False Life via spell blending, which gives you roughly as much HP as the extra 2 points in Con would have.

Agreed. Though at least in my games, it always seems like the front line players never have enough hit points, and at least one of them comes close to death or is outright killed at least once every other game session. But we're a pretty high optimization group, so it might just be that.

[Feint's End]

You can two hand with power attack as a dex magus as well as a str magus. Just pick a two handed finessable weapon like an Elven Curve Blade with the Agile Enchantment and set a 13 in str for PA and you are good to go.

In general dex is better on Magi though because the maindraw of str is power attacking with a two handed weapon and you won't be able to do it all of the time. Also the main damage will come from bursts from Intensified Shocking Grasp anyways.
It's also personal preference but Dex Magi are just way cooler.

[NightbringerGGZ]

Agreed. Though at least in my games, it always seems like the front line players never have enough hit points, and at least one of them comes close to death or is outright killed at least once every other game session. But we're a pretty high optimization group, so it might just be that.

My group has the same experiences in our fights, and I'm doing decently with 12 Con Strength Magus. I've come close to death a few times, but most enemies are taken down in 2-3 hits and with the highter base damage my crits are rather nasty for the level we're playing at.

[stack]

You can two hand with power attack as a dex magus as well as a str magus. Just pick a two handed finessable weapon like an Elven Curve Blade with the Agile Enchantment and set a 13 in str for PA and you are good to go.

In general dex is better on Magi though because the maindraw of str is power attacking with a two handed weapon and you won't be able to do it all of the time. Also the main damage will come from bursts from Intensified Shocking Grasp anyways.
It's also personal preference but Dex Magi are just way cooler.

No spell combat with a two hander. Don't give up spell combat.

[Shinken]

No spell combat with a two hander. Don't give up spell combat.

This. So much this.

[Zubrowka74]

No spell combat with a two hander. Don't give up spell combat.

Obviously it's for when you run out of spells. And remember that switching from one handed to 2handed grip is a free action IIRC.

Personnaly I did my DEX based build around the Aldori duelling blade. There's an Aldori feat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/aldori-dueling-mastery)out there that gives you +2 to init. Combine this with high DEX, improved init and a trait that gives you another +2. This is +11 right there at 16 DEX.

[stack]

Obviously it's for when you run out of spells. And remember that switching from one handed to 2handed grip is a free action IIRC.

Personnaly I did my DEX based build around the Aldori duelling blade. There's an Aldori feat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/aldori-dueling-mastery)out there that gives you +2 to init. Combine this with high DEX, improved init and a trait that gives you another +2. This is +11 right there at 16 DEX.

Two-handing a one-handed weapon for increased damage is great, as long as you don't dervish dance. Carrying a second weapon that is two-handed only for use when you run out of spells is sinking a bunch of money for a minor damage increase (or sinking a little money and using a weapon without the enchantments of your main).

[TheOneHawk]

25 point buy as far as stats go, so I can get quite a few stats pretty high. Obviously Cha is a dump stat as it does literally nothing for me and we don't need a face, we already have a bard. What's this new dex to damage feat and when is it coming out?

[Shinken]

Agreed. Though at least in my games, it always seems like the front line players never have enough hit points, and at least one of them comes close to death or is outright killed at least once every other game session. But we're a pretty high optimization group, so it might just be that.

I think that's supposed to happen in every group. If your front liners are not near death, you did not have a challenging encounter.

[Slipperychicken]

No spell combat with a two hander.

Changing handedness is a free action, so you can two-hand while using spell combat.


FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qda)

Two-Handed Weapons: What kind of action is it to remove your hand from a two-handed weapon or re-grab it with both hands?

Both are free actions. For example, a wizard wielding a quarterstaff can let go of the weapon with one hand as a free action, cast a spell as a standard action, and grasp the weapon again with that hand as a free action; this means the wizard is still able to make attacks of opportunity with the weapon (which requires using two hands).

As with any free action, the GM may decide a reasonable limit to how many times per round you can release and re-grasp the weapon (one release and re-grasp per round is fair).


Hit something with 2H weapon
Take one hand off the weapon [free action]
Cast Spell
Put hand back on the weapon [free action]
Rinse and repeat.

[Feint's End]

Two-handing a one-handed weapon for increased damage is great, as long as you don't dervish dance. Carrying a second weapon that is two-handed only for use when you run out of spells is sinking a bunch of money for a minor damage increase (or sinking a little money and using a weapon without the enchantments of your main).

I am aware of all those points. I just wanted to point out that dexterity is a viable stat for 2h fighting style not for the magus specifically (I think I even mentioned that). You probably could make a point in using a dervish dance magus and using the scimitar 2handed when not spellcombating .... would work pretty nice for the times you don't want to waste a spell.

[stack]

Changing handedness is a free action, so you can two-hand while using spell combat.


Hit something with 2H weapon
Take one hand off the weapon [free action]
Cast Spell
Put hand back on the weapon [free action]
Rinse and repeat.


The issue isn't switching hands, its spell combat itself.

At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast. To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand.

You can spellstrike just fine, but cannot spell combat when wielding a two-handed weapon even if you take a hand off of it. This is also why dervish dance meshes so well, since you HAVE to have a hand free (technically not free, just not holding a weapon or shield so a wand or whatever is okay) to dervish dance and a magus has a good reason to much of the time.

[Psyren]

Stack is correct - they specifically designed spell combat to prevent you from using it with a 2-hander.

You can however use a 2-hander and spell combat using a multi-armed race like a Kasatha. Simply make hand #3 be unarmed strike (or hold a dagger or something, just don't attack with it) and leave hand #4 empty.

[Slipperychicken]

The issue isn't switching hands, its spell combat itself.

At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast. To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand.


Then you can take a one-handed weapon (such as a longsword or scimitar) and alternate between wielding two-handed and one-handed. Now you can score your 2H damage (i.e. 1.5xStr and extra Power Attack) with spell combat.

[TheOneHawk]

I don't know, it seems pretty clear to me that it was at least intended that you cannot have your second hand doing anything weapon related while you use spell combat. The option to put a second hand on the weapon when you run out of spells is a solid advantage to the strength build, but once spell recall kicks in, I don't see myself running out of spells regularly. Damn spell recall looks good.

[Shinken]

I don't know, it seems pretty clear to me that it was at least intended that you cannot have your second hand doing anything weapon related while you use spell combat. The option to put a second hand on the weapon when you run out of spells is a solid advantage to the strength build, but once spell recall kicks in, I don't see myself running out of spells regularly. Damn spell recall looks good.

Yes and that is exactly how it works by RAW. Spell combat is a single action that includes casting the spell and a full-attack - you can't wield a weapon with both hands (even a one-handed weapon) during Spell Combat because then that hand would be wielding a weapon during the Spell Combat action so you wouldn't be able to use it.

[Slipperychicken]

I don't know, it seems pretty clear to me that it was at least intended that you cannot have your second hand doing anything weapon related while you use spell combat. The option to put a second hand on the weapon when you run out of spells is a solid advantage to the strength build, but once spell recall kicks in, I don't see myself running out of spells regularly. Damn spell recall looks good.

The FAQ explicitly says you can do that. If it wasn't intended, the designers would have put some commentary on the site, like they usually do.

[TheOneHawk]

Do you have a link to that FAQ? I haven't seen it anywhere in my research. If it works it would obviously be a strong boon for STR magus.

[Shinken]

Do you have a link to that FAQ? I haven't seen it anywhere in my research. If it works it would obviously be a strong boon for STR magus.

I have just checked the FAQ, it says nothing of the sort. Yes, changing handedness is a free action, but you still need one hand to not be wielding a weapon during the whole Spell Combat action.

[Slipperychicken]

I have just checked the FAQ, it says nothing of the sort. Yes, changing handedness is a free action, but you still need one hand to not be wielding a weapon during the whole Spell Combat action.

Yeah, I just posted on the FAQ thread. Hopefully we can get an answer sometime.

[TheOneHawk]

So posting this thread right before a cruise probably wasn't the best time. Hopefully this isn't too necromantic.

I'm curious about people's opinions on str/dex vs int. Walters guide says that your combat stat is more important, and not even his 25 point buy has over 16 int. why is that? Int gives you more spells, more arcane pool, more skills, etc. is getting your combat stat maxed that much more important?

[NightbringerGGZ]

The idea is to completely avoid spells where the primary effect depends on the target failing a Save. You're not going to be able to afford maxing out Int and still have stats that work for melee combat, plus you're limited to 6th level spells with a limited spell list anyway. You'll be casting buffs and touch attack spells mostly so you only need an Int score high enough to cover your max level of spell casting.

Now, Int is still useful to a Magus for a number of other abilities, so there's nothing wrong with pumping it up as you level. You're just going to find that a high Strength/Dex is of more use than a high Int at low levels.

[Slipperychicken]

So posting this thread right before a cruise probably wasn't the best time. Hopefully this isn't too necromantic.

I'm curious about people's opinions on str/dex vs int. Walters guide says that your combat stat is more important, and not even his 25 point buy has over 16 int. why is that? Int gives you more spells, more arcane pool, more skills, etc. is getting your combat stat maxed that much more important?

Yeah, basically what Nightbringer said: Magi need their physical stats to be good at fighting, and they don't need high save DCs. So all they really need is the minimum Int to cast 6th level spells.

As for necro, we should be in the clear:


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