Belkar´s trial

[Crabapple]

How will Belkar´s trail go? will he escape justice :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: polls up, stupid poll the 4 option should be "bribed/killed to get not guilty" but it was to long

[BardicLasher]

Belkar is probably very, very screwed.

[Green Bean]

Dude, anything approaching a halfway functional justice system would, at best, lock :belkar: up and throw away the keys. He's in trouble... :smallbiggrin:

[Awesome Girl]

Well, if the people he killed could be resurrected, he could get off the hook.

[BardicLasher]

He might have to continue giving his moneys to Azure City while he adventures.

[berrew]

I suspect that the havoc wreaked by the upcoming battle will result in some kind of compromise being made; mostly to keep the character around in future strips

[Emanick1]

Probably, the trial won't take place for a few hundred more strips. Roy and the others have a lot of adventuring to do before there's time for a trial.

[Crabapple]

yeah hopefully he will never leave us :smallbiggrin:

[OOTS_Rules.]

I think that Azure City will get destroyed and Hinjo, feeling sorry for Belkar, will remove the mark.

[meep]

I'm with those who say the upcoming battle is going to preclude the trial.

I think the Azure City gate will be destroyed, and Belkar will be needed to help to save one of the other gates. I don't even see Belkar going on trial.

[Porthos]

Other: Xykon's attack will in someway make the trial impossible/incredibly difficult to occur.

[Tordek]

What, specifically, could you charge Belkar with? More importantly, what could they prove? He mostly kills monsters, and hasn't done anything besides break out of prison in quite a while.

[The Extinguisher]

Killing the guard. You know, why he has the MoJ on in the first place.

[vbushido]

Murder (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0265.html)
Assault of a member of the Sapphire Guard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0270.html)
Contaminating a food source (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0279.html)
Assault with a, um, lead sheet (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0281.html)
Destabilizing a paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html)

I think that covers everything by which Azure City could try him.


-----
I've packed my emotional baggage and I'm ready for my ego trip

[Tordek]

I'm mostly posting for the sake of debate here, as its all good points, but Miko really can't be a credible witness now.

[fruityjanitor]

I think that after the battle, the Order is going to chase after Xykon (or maybe try to get a head start towards the next gate) rather than hang around for Belkar to stand trial and most likely get thrown in jail (Azure City doesn't have a Machiavellian leader anymore...).

So I said Belkar runs away, which was the closest choice.

[Adeptus]

Belkar was captured (and twice trouced up) by a crazy-ass paladin on trumped-up charges. He was in essense imprisoned by an enemy, and it was his right to escape. Killing a guard when escaping is just the way the cookie crumbles. The guard can be raised anyway.

If anything, the Sapphire Guard should issue an apology to the whole OotS.

The whole issue is moot anyway. There will be no city and no guard pretty soon.

[Jewel Thief]

Since Azure city will be destroyed, there will be no trial.

[Mewtarthio]

"Other": Xykon is about to render the Sapphire Guard incapable of holding trials.

[fwiffo]

It's just one little kill of a generic guard anyway. Big deal. Adventurers in D&D have kill counts of nameless guards/monsters/random encounters in hundreds, at least, probably thousands. Set the little stabber free.

[ElfLad]

Belkar will be sentenced to a lifetime of assisting the manufacture of Halfling Drop Soup.

[IronMouse]

Belkar has a good defense.. He and his friends were falsely arrested and forced to march to a foreign country where a sham trial was being arranged. It could be argued…and argued well…that Belkar had the duty to attempt to escape

[okpokalypse]

If it was the US and the same circumstances happened, he'd be found not guilty. That's Right. Not Guilty.

Why?

Because the OotS was captured for violating the law of Azure City while being neither Citizens thereof nor committing the crimes within their Jurisdiction. Their bring brought to trial by Miko therefore constitutes unlawful imprisonment. And the US still has laws on record (and likely always will) that striking out against government officials and soldiers is defensable when it is considered a crime against tyranny - which unlawful (and false) imprisonment falls under.

Therefore, all he'd have to do is claim that they were brought in unlawfully and he was being held against his will and was fighting the state, which was committing the tyrannous act.

In the US this has been exemplified in 2 cases which I've studied while in college. Both consisted of imprisoned men who were found guilty and denied an appeal. They both accumulated at least 20 years of additional jail time by fighting against the prison guards while attesting to their innocense. When it was brought to light that they were falsely imprisoned, their conviction time was immediately overturned, and all time (crimes) accumulated while in custody were dismissed as they were fighting against false imprisonment.

I can get you the reference to the cases later on if you really want... But as it stands, in the US - he'd be free. His killing the guard while unlawfully imprisoned would be immediately expunged.

Now I know this is modern law - but as it stands, the DnD universe tends to mimic today's US/Euro system of justsice. At least LG Cities such as Azure City do... So while not a fact of use, it's still a good reference to adhere to today's legal systems as a standard for such issues.

[Dectilon]

There's always insanity (maybe?)

"...Euro system..." : D

[slayerx]

Belkar has a good defense.. He and his friends were falsely arrested and forced to march to a foreign country where a sham trial was being arranged. It could be argued…and argued well…that Belkar had the duty to attempt to escape

Not quite... while the trial was a shame, the charges they were held on were true. They DID weaken the fabric of the universe, and there was enough evidence against them to warrant an arrest; and hell, if the trail wasn't a sham, a true lawful good judge may have found them guilty of tat crime (as Shojo pointed out). Also, the OoTS was given the chance to go peacefully, which would have been a nice fully paid trip across country (on horseback i might add), but ended up CHOOSING to resist arrest, which resulted them NEEDING to be dragged by force so that they could face justice; Durkon in contast, did not resist arrest and thus had a peaceful trip. Essentially, there really isn't much escuse to for Belkar attempting escape, much less going as far as killing the guard (who he could have probably knoacked out), he should have waited out the trail to here his verdict...

Not to mention, even you think Belkar's escape attempt and MURDER was correct (which it is not)... the trial is being held under the laws of Azure city, so it's bascially up to what the nation thinks is the right course of action... and under azure city law, his actions would definatly be condemned


Because the OotS was captured for violating the law of Azure City while being neither Citizens thereof nor committing the crimes within their Jurisdiction.
If i recall Shojo correctly, "weakening the fabric of the world" is not against the laws of Azure City, but the laws of the gods which is the law of the world... The saphire guard, when it comes to enforcing the laws of the gods (such as NOT weakening the fabric of the world), bascially has no limit to their juristiction, and thus the OoTS fall under it

Also... while i think false imprisionment would escuse escaping jail... i somehow doubt it would escuse any kind of Murder that was done while attempting escape, especially since the guard did not activly try to stop Belkar's escape (even though he would have if given the chance)

[Renegade Paladin]

Azure City isn't the United States.

[Aimbot]

It would be hard to imprison someone in a smoking crater.
The throne's been destroyed, gents, that's called foreshadowing.

[Callista]

Wait, wait... Belkar's right to escape? The dude's a murderer! A jillion times over a murderer! Of course, it was right in character of him to escape, but it wasn't his right.

[Wyborn]

There won't be any trial. Hinjo will do his final bit of growing up after Azure City is nearly destroyed, will see that Belkar can help save the multiverse, and give him a pardon - on the condition that he finishes paying for the guard's resurrection.

[Adeptus]

Not to mention, even you think Belkar's escape attempt and MURDER was correct (which it is not)... the trial is being held under the laws of Azure city, so it's bascially up to what the nation thinks is the right course of action... and under azure city law, his actions would definatly be condemned


The laws of a foreign city state give no justification to capturing the OotS by force and dragging them there. Sohjo, I think, has later said that the whole "trial" was just a scam cooked up by him and Eugene (Roy's dad).

Somebody else commented on Belkar being a murderer. That is neither here nor there, and has no bearing on the matter. Heck, almost any D&D character is a murderer by somebody's definition.

[Green Bean]

The laws of a foreign city state give no justification to capturing the OotS by force and dragging them there. Sohjo, I think, has later said that the whole "trial" was just a scam cooked up by him and Eugene (Roy's dad).

The laws of a foreign city had no juristiction to capture the OotS, but Shojo ordered their capture based on divine law, which has no such limit. Also, the trial's decision was a scam, not the charges. The OotS actually did weaken the fabric of the universe.

[Arcane_Secrets]

There won't be any trial. Hinjo will do his final bit of growing up after Azure City is nearly destroyed, will see that Belkar can help save the multiverse, and give him a pardon - on the condition that he finishes paying for the guard's resurrection.

That's similar to the way I saw it. I think Belkar also isn't going to see trial because Roy just saved Hinjo's life from Miko, and if he asks for anything from Hinjo, it's going to be keeping Belkar alive...under the same conditions as before.

Of course, this will be completely insufficient to save Belkar what might happen next: namely Miko joining the Linear Guild to seek vengeance upon Belkar, and does what neither Yikyik or Yokyok could: namely kills him permanently.

[Bosswald]

He's got to run away. if he goes to trial, he's certain to be executed, andhe's immortal til he kills someone on the list. Of course, if he manages to punch Miko's ticket before or during the battle, well...

[Soniku]

Guilty, or he won't get one. My reasoning?

Well, chances are the trial won't happen before the attack on azure city, and if it does it will be dramatically interrupted by the attack. Xykons army is pretty close now.

Naturally, Roy and the order will go chaseing off in whatever direction they need to next, and remember the oracles comment on savoring his next birthday cake? Yeah, I'm guessing on death before the trial, or execution.


Course, I'm probly wrong :smalltongue:

[Adeptus]

The laws of a foreign city had no juristiction to capture the OotS, but Shojo ordered their capture based on divine law, which has no such limit. Also, the trial's decision was a scam, not the charges. The OotS actually did weaken the fabric of the universe.

Nope. The whole thing was cooked together so that Shojo would get the chanse to employ the OotS. It's all in the comic (and some bonuses in the No Cure for the Paladin Blues book)

[slayerx]

Nope. The whole thing was cooked together so that Shojo would get the chanse to employ the OotS. It's all in the comic (and some bonuses in the No Cure for the Paladin Blues book)
So are you saying that it isn't against divine law to "weaken the fabric of the world by destorying the gates"? cause i'm pretty sure the gods wouldn't be too happy about someone doing that...

[Professor Tanhauser]

If i were belakr, I'd tell azure city's court's that I'm not a citizen of azure city, I'm not bound by it's laws, I was taken to azure city against my will by force by one of it's agents and as such I was justifiably entitled to do whatever I could or wanted to in order to escape false arrest and imprisonment.

I would not participate int he trial beyond that point.

[Nightmarenny]

If i were belakr, I'd tell azure city's court's that I'm not a citizen of azure city, I'm not bound by it's laws, I was taken to azure city against my will by force by one of it's agents and as such I was justifiably entitled to do whatever I could or wanted to in order to escape false arrest and imprisonment.

I would not participate int he trial beyond that point.
So? Your found in contemt of court and eventural found guilty. You still die.

[Planewalker]

Something is telling me Belkar won't make it to trial. He can't die yet, but I don't think the opportunity to try him will arise before Xykon arrives.

[Professor Tanhauser]

So? Your found in contemt of court and eventural found guilty. You still die.

Lessee, the gods struck down miko for killing an innocent man, so if azure city's courts kill a man they had no right to, what happens then?

[The Extinguisher]

Professor Tanhauser, going by your logic, then I could go to any country I wanted, other then my own, kill someone and get off free?

Yeah, it doesn't work that way in real life, and I really doubt it works that way in Oots' world.

[Nightmarenny]

Exept you went through court and were found guilty. You got your trial and you did kill a gaurd. You die. They keep their powers. Miko attacked with out a trial on made up evidence.

[Haruki-kun]

If the trial actually happened, he would be Guilty, but only for a single murder, the guard, but I voted for running away.

Also, I don't think the trial will quite happen, given the Lich leading that humongous army to destroy Azure city and take over the world.

[Professor Tanhauser]

Exept you went through court and were found guilty. You got your trial and you did kill a gaurd. You die. They keep their powers. Miko attacked with out a trial on made up evidence.

ARGH! The fact they "tried" him makes no difference if they had no right whatsoever to try him inthe first place because he was not subject to their laws!

[The Extinguisher]

This is about the murder of the guard, not the fake trial Shojo made. So yeah, he still has to abide by thier laws when he's in the country.

[Nightmarenny]

Yes yes they did have the right. Were not talking about the whole weaking the universe thing anymore that was settled hundreds of comics ago. We are talking homicide(not murder) which he is tecnicaly guilty of and though he might argue himself out of it refusing to go to trial means no evidence against the accusation and you die(by the creature of Pure law and Good)

[Professor Tanhauser]

This is about the murder of the guard, not the fake trial Shojo made. So yeah, he still has to abide by thier laws when he's in the country.

NOT if they took him there by force against his will. If you CHOOSE to enter a country, city, whatever, you are bound by it';s rules and laws, yes. If a member of that society forcibly drags you to it in chains, you're NOT!!!

[Nightmarenny]

NOT if they took him there by force against his will. If you CHOOSE to enter a country, city, whatever, you are bound by it';s rules and laws, yes. If a member of that society forcibly drags you to it in chains, you're NOT!!!
Ok. The only thing that can be considered in a trail is what is put into evidence. So if you refuse to come into the trial(refuse legal counsel as well) nothing but damningevidence is there for the BoPLaG to work with. You'll die.

[Solara]

There's no question of whether or not he's guilty, but I voted Other because I'm surprised getting pardoned wasn't an option. Seems the obvious one to me, since by the time his trial is scheduled (after the OotS finish off Xykon) he'll have assisted in saving the world.

[The Extinguisher]

Yeah, you are.

Besides, they had every right. Weakening the fabric of existance is a divine law and as such, there is no limit to the Sapphire Guards juristiction.

It's like being extradited to another country, but while you are there you break out and kill someone. You'll still be charged with that murder even though you were forced into the country.

[Sisqui]

:belkar: is chaotic- in the extreme. He doesn't give one flying, plague ridden, urine soaked rat's a** of a damn if he is actually guilty, if they do have a legal right to try him, or if they actually convict him. He's just gonna do what he did before- stab whoever is guarding him and run (and by before I mean in the comic posted on the web and in OTOPC's......

[sethdarkwater]

If Hinjo takes over, he may pardon Belkar after the upcoming battle.

[sethdarkwater]

The laws of a foreign city had no juristiction to capture the OotS, but Shojo ordered their capture based on divine law, which has no such limit. Also, the trial's decision was a scam, not the charges. The OotS actually did weaken the fabric of the universe.

And even though they are charged with that an are found guilty. Which they are like it or not. It could always be a light sentencing based on the situation.

[berrew]

Yeah, you are.

Besides, they had every right. Weakening the fabric of existance is a divine law and as such, there is no limit to the Sapphire Guards juristiction.I disagree. Hinjo clearly states that the ONLY thing Roy has done wrong was breaking an oath that he didn't even take. Shojo himself said that he had no legal authority to grab OoTS in the first place. More importantly, in No Cure for the Paladin Blues, Rich B. refutes this.

There is no "divine law" - and if there *were*, the ones executing it on a global scale would, well, be the gods.

[okpokalypse]

The laws of a foreign city had no juristiction to capture the OotS, but Shojo ordered their capture based on divine law, which has no such limit. Also, the trial's decision was a scam, not the charges. The OotS actually did weaken the fabric of the universe.

If that's the case, then you must hold that the suicide bombers have it right. Divine law after all. Doesn't matter where the infidels are - kill em everywhere - cause the Gods say so, right?

Divine law is NOT an excuse to come into foreign land under state sanction and arrest/attack/kill non-citizens. That is NOT legal anywhere in our world, and the same holds true for the D&D world according to the "modern thinking" of laws therein. Doing so in today's world is either terrorism or war.

The OotS had every right to resist. They had every right to escape. And last, but not least, Belkar had every right to do whatever was needed in an attempt to escape unlawful imprisonment.

And as an aside - the charges, to quote Shojo, "I couldn't tell her why I had to speak to you, thought, so I invoked criminal charges. I knew that you were innocent..."

And to further reiterate, Roy states, "So everything we've been through - being captured, abused, imprisoned, tried - was all so you could offer me a JOB without your paladin buddies knowing?!" And Shojo simply respondes with, "I supposed Yes."

They were never presumed guilty by the state - and therefore they were taken against their will and falsely imprisoned. Belkar's attempted escape is completely justified.

[slayerx]

I disagree. Hinjo clearly states that the ONLY thing Roy has done wrong was breaking an oath that he didn't even take. Shojo himself said that he had no legal authority to grab OoTS in the first place. More importantly, in No Cure for the Paladin Blues, Rich B. refutes this.

There is no "divine law" - and if there *were*, the ones executing it on a global scale would, well, be the gods.

Shojo kind of contradicts this... I mean, he pointed out that if the truth ever got out, the OoTS would be in deep **** with that trial. If Those charges were completly false and their actions of weakening the fabric of the universe didn't fall under the Jurisdiction, then the OoTS would have had nothing to worry about if the truth got out... and consdiering the Roy was already willing to go after Xykon, Shojo would have had no reason to be pulling his leg at that time.

Not to mention, we must recall that the saphire guard went on a WORLD WIDE crusade to wipe out anything that threatened the gate to the point where there was no one left to remember it's existance. If the Saphire guard can go on a world wide crusade, killing countless evildoers, in the name of protecting the very frabric of the universe, then it stands that they can arrest a bunch of adventures for committing a similar crime; even if there is no divine law stating that exactly.

And the paladin's serve under the gods... essenially, if the gods wanted laws enforced, the saphire guard and the clerics that worship them would be the ones enforcing them... seriously, if the gods could do it themselves they would have blasted Xykon into paste by now

[Nightmarenny]

Shojo kind of contradicts this... I mean, he pointed out that if the truth ever got out, the OoTS would be in deep **** with that trial. If Those charges were completly false and their actions of weakening the fabric of the universe didn't fall under the Jurisdiction, then the OoTS would have had nothing to worry about if the truth got out... and consdiering the Roy was already willing to go after Xykon, Shojo would have had no reason to be pulling his leg at that time.

Not to mention, we must recall that the saphire guard went on a WORLD WIDE crusade to wipe out anything that threatened the gate to the point where there was no one left to remember it's existance. If the Saphire guard can go on a world wide crusade, killing countless evildoers, in the name of protecting the very frabric of the universe, then it stands that they can arrest a bunch of adventures for committing a similar crime; even if there is no divine law stating that exactly.

And the paladin's serve under the gods... essenially, if the gods wanted laws enforced, the saphire guard and the clerics that worship them would be the ones enforcing them... seriously, if the gods could do it themselves they would have blasted Xykon into paste by now
What the giant said was that they didn't have the right to charge them but they were anyway.

[okpokalypse]

It's like being extradited to another country, but while you are there you break out and kill someone. You'll still be charged with that murder even though you were forced into the country.

The rules of extradition require the person in question have sufficient evidence presented against them to the government / law enforcement of the territory housing him.

If there is sufficient evidence, then the government of the terriroty in which he currently resides will legally arrest him by recognizing the charges of an extradition territory, and transfer him to said territory to stand trial.

Extradition has NOTHING to do with a foreign government capturing someone on foreign soil. Zero. Zilch.

Of couse this supposes that Azure City is a LG community. Personally, by what I've seen of the legal system, I'd likely say they're LG. After all, Shojo admitted the charges would never have stuck - despite them being concocted for his own ends. In that regard, I can't see any LG state holding someone accountable for a defense against tyranny (unlawful imprisonment) anymore than they would hold someone for killing in self-defense.

Now if they're LN - he'd go to jail. It wouldn't matter. And so would Miko. And so would Roy. And so would Hinjo, for aiding an abetting Belkar (unknowingly). LN cares nothing for intent or ignorance. LG does.

[Professor Tanhauser]

Um, if shojo ADMITTED that tazure city had no right to charge them, then sent miko to forcibly take them to azure city, isn't that kinda like, oh, I dunno, abduction, which is generally a crime?

Maybe shojo should be facing charges instead of belkar

[AllisterH]

So who does hold jurisdiction over the original charge of "weakening the fabric of the universe" if not the sapphire guard?

I want to say the country where the Redmountain gate was located but if that is no-man's land, then you get into "international waters" type thing.

Which, is another kettle of fish (http://www.funtrivia.com/askft/Question52490.html).

[Nightmarenny]

Um, if shojo ADMITTED that tazure city had no right to charge them, then sent miko to forcibly take them to azure city, isn't that kinda like, oh, I dunno, abduction, which is generally a crime?

Maybe shojo should be facing charges instead of belkar
Shojo didn't, Rich did

[okpokalypse]

So who does hold jurisdiction over the original charge of "weakening the fabric of the universe" if not the sapphire guard?

I want to say the country where the Redmountain gate was located but if that is no-man's land, then you get into "international waters" type thing.

Which, is another kettle of fish (http://www.funtrivia.com/askft/Question52490.html).

No one does. That's the point. The Sapphire Guard has eradicated anyone with knowledge of the gates (sounds Kinda Nazi-esque to me) and they themselves took a vow to never interfere with them - even insofar as to guarding them. So they've relinquished all claim to them in the process that they might have once had.

Thus, it is like international waters. And as such, unless they directly harmed a citizen of Azure City while in non-claimed territory, they've committed no crime againt the state. The charges and trail are a farce - assuming Azure City to be LG - and therefore, Belkar trying to escape is a fight against tyranny, and not a cold-blooded murder as some say.

[Solara]

Okay, just skimmed through this, and why is everyone trotting out all the tired, well-worn arguments about the Shojo and the Gate? That's not even what this poll is about.

[warmachine]

Belkar could claim escape from false imprisonment except his subsequent actions show that wasn't his intent. If he intended to escape, he wouldn't paint directions to the storeroom, which would deliberately make his escape harder.

Unfortunate as the false imprisonment thing holds up till that point.

[okpokalypse]

Belkar could claim escape from false imprisonment except his subsequent actions show that wasn't his intent. If he intended to escape, he wouldn't paint directions to the storeroom, which would deliberately make his escape harder.

Unfortunate as the false imprisonment thing holds up till that point.

No except - he can claim it.

His actions in leading Miko to him could easily be explained as to removing the facotr which contributed to your imprisonment. IE. Kill the tracker that unlawfully brought you in. It's all tied into self-defense and a fight against tyranny.

Essentially, if the state recognizes that he was unlawfully imprisoned, he's exonerated of whatever deeds he did as a fugutive that can be dictated as relating to his efforts to escape and remove the possibility of re-capture. The point at which that ends is when they're found not guilty and offered leave of Azure City. From that point on, so long as he remains within Azure City territory, he's subject to their laws.

He can also likely continue to claim some form of imprisonment beyond that however as he's marked and effectively made defenseless against his will.

[AllisterH]

No one does. That's the point. The Sapphire Guard has eradicated anyone with knowledge of the gates (sounds Kinda Nazi-esque to me) and they themselves took a vow to never interfere with them - even insofar as to guarding them. So they've relinquished all claim to them in the process that they might have once had.

Thus, it is like international waters. And as such, unless they directly harmed a citizen of Azure City while in non-claimed territory, they've committed no crime againt the state. The charges and trail are a farce - assuming Azure City to be LG - and therefore, Belkar trying to escape is a fight against tyranny, and not a cold-blooded murder as some say.

Wait.

You're honestly stating that the potential destruction of the world (which is the charge) means NOONE has jurisdiction? The real question is who has jurisdiction since if the world goes boom, EVERYONE (including those in Azure City) are affected. So explain WHY Azure City doesn't get a crack at them?

Just because the OotS are the stars doesn't mean they get to do anything they want.

As for "belkar was simply escaping an injust imprisonment" that wouldn't fly. The problem with this is that there is a term called "reasonable response". Its why killing a person trespassing across your lawn will get you the charge for murder even though the first person killed was breaking the law.

Belkar _KILLED A GUARD AND DESCREATED THE BODY_. If this anything other than results in an immediate guilty verdict, then Miko was right and the courts are corrupt.

[warmachine]

His actions in leading Miko to him could easily be explained as to removing the factor which contributed to your imprisonment i.e. kill the tracker that unlawfully brought you in. It's all tied into self-defense and a fight against tyranny.
That's daft because it's not just Miko imprisoning him - the Sapphire Guard are responsible. Even if he succeeds in killing Miko, the rest of the Guard know where he is and can recapture him through massive numbers, magic or whatever else they have in their home base. He'd be better off just running and ambushing hunting parties as far from the Guard's base as possible. Neither was he trying to kill Miko to prevent recapture as he made no attempt to coup de grace her when she was knocked out. Even if a court cannot determine Belkar's motives, escaping and avoiding recapture is NOT it.

It is also incredulous to claim the right to kill to avoid recapture by inviting someone to capture you.

[warmachine]

You're honestly stating that the potential destruction of the world (which is the charge) means NOONE has jurisdiction? The real question is who has jurisdiction since if the world goes boom, EVERYONE (including those in Azure City) are affected. So explain WHY Azure City doesn't get a crack at them?

It is absurd to accuse someone of breaking a law when one deliberately blocks knowing such a law even exists, let alone the natural consequences of the action. Otherwise people have no idea if an action or lack of action will break some secret law they can't inform themselves of.

Also, if an organisation wishes to claim authority over something, they have to advertise that they even exist, let alone genuinely have authority. This includes divine authority. Otherwise every charlatan or lunatic will claim authority over something and no one can tell if they really do.

Whether representatives of the Southern gods have jurisdiction in lands that follow Northern gods is a question best left to theologians.

In other words, if the Guard demand power over gate affairs themselves, they have to take responsibility for gate affairs themselves.

[Solara]

I still say you guys are making this way too complicated. Whatever their reasons for being in the city, Belkar still very obviously killed the guard, and further more I don't think he'd try to deny it even if there was any doubt. This is Belkar we're talking about.

Not that I think any of this even really matters, because being one of the protagonists and all, the MoJ is probably the only punishment he's ever going to get. As I said earlier, it's likely he'll get pardoned for helping save the world, and his money will go to raising the guard, so no (permanent) harm done.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Belkar will be found guilty and sentenced to halp save the world.

[Yuudai]

whait..what happens to the moj if the city is a pile of ash?

[Haruki-kun]

Bekar can be found guilty for all I care, they won't imprison him. If he's in Jail, he won't get to kill Roy, V, Miko, Windstriker, or the Oracle, and that HAS to happen, no matter what. So he still has to roam free.

[Professor Tanhauser]

You know, as an interesting twist on belkar's trial, what if HE filed charges against AC for assault, forcible abduction, unlawful imprisonment and so on?

Let's see how and the lawful types dealt with being on the recoieving end of legal charges for a change.

[Lord Zentei]

You know, as an interesting twist on belkar's trial, what if HE filed charges against AC for assault, forcible abduction, unlawful imprisonment and so on?

Let's see how and the lawful types dealt with being on the recoieving end of legal charges for a change.

I imagine Hinjo would take it in his stride, especially if the OOTS were useful during the seige. Perhaps a plea bargain.

I had voted for "guilty", since I couldn't see AC bribed, or Belkar becoming an escaped loner - moreover, he is pretty clearly guilty and Eugene won't be in a position to bail him out.

However, with the possibility of mutually dropping charges or plea bargaining or somesuch, that might not be the result of the case...

So, perhaps its going to be "other".

[Mr Teufel]

As an Australian I'm bemused by what people have said the US would or would not do. Currently there is an Australian being held by US authorities who has never set foot in US soil. If he killed a guard to escape, I think there'd be much doubt what would happen.

[SteveMB]

If i were belakr, I'd tell azure city's court's that I'm not a citizen of azure city, I'm not bound by it's laws, I was taken to azure city against my will by force by one of it's agents and as such I was justifiably entitled to do whatever I could or wanted to in order to escape false arrest and imprisonment.

I would not participate int he trial beyond that point.
That certainly sounds in character (except that Belkar would phrase it in a dialect of legalese that includes such terms as "bite me", "screw this", etc).

[Lord Zentei]

That certainly sounds in character (except that Belkar would phrase it in a dialect of legalese that includes such terms as "bite me", "screw this", etc).

Well, yeah, though that won't help him avoid the trial. Besides if you commit a crime such as kill someone in a country in which you are not a citizen, you can still be tried there.

Also, killing a guard while trying to escape is not migitated by the fact that the initial charges you were arrested for were false.

Put these two together and a "bite me" won't help him much, it would only add a "contempt for court" charge.

[unstattedCommoner]

Murder (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0265.html)
Assault of a member of the Sapphire Guard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0270.html)
Contaminating a food source (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0279.html)
Assault with a, um, lead sheet (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0281.html)
Destabilizing a paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html)

I think that covers everything by which Azure City could try him.


Four of these I agree with, but how exactly can he be charged with contaminating a food source? Quick reviewing of #279 does not provide any evidence that he either intended or was reckless as to that particular consequence. Unless 'contaminating a food source' is a strict liability offence (ie, very minor, like illegal parking), he can't be charged with that. You might as well charge Miko with that for causing Belkar to fall off the battlements and into the soup.

However, you missed:
- Arson in the final two panels of #270
- Theft of a cure potion in #281

If you're going to throw the book, you may as well throw all of it.


It is absurd to accuse someone of breaking a law when one deliberately blocks knowing such a law even exists, let alone the natural consequences of the action. Otherwise people have no idea if an action or lack of action will break some secret law they can't inform themselves of.

QFT. I take it you mean that people should not be liable for consequences of their actions which they would have foreseen, but for the information enabling them to forsee those consequences being a state secret to which they were not privy?

[meep]

I think there will be no trial at all, so all this lawyerizing is moot.

Kind of hard to have a trial if your court is rubble.

[Professor Tanhauser]

As an Australian I'm bemused by what people have said the US would or would not do. Currently there is an Australian being held by US authorities who has never set foot in US soil. If he killed a guard to escape, I think there'd be much doubt what would happen.

Well, if he's being held like peisoners at gitmo, sans charges,evidence, counsel, appeal, etc, and he whacked an american guard to escape I, as an american,would not convict him of a crime because I would believe he was in the right.

But that's just one little mutant's opinion.

[Lord Zentei]

I think there will be no trial at all, so all this lawyerizing is moot.

Kind of hard to have a trial if your court is rubble.

Spoilsport. :smalltongue:

[ildrain_quagot]

I don't think that there will be time for a trial with Xykons army coming to destroy everything

[r23r5]

belkar will probably be guilty, but hinjo will join the oots

[Greyson]

belkar will probably be guilty, but hinjo will join the ootsThat would be an absolutely golden twist. Furthermore, maybe the following could happen: Belkar could then join the Linear Guild and fight against his former allies! Muahahahah! I would love that. Belkar would be finally able to live out his evil potential. Though I doubt he'd risk his own hide by siding with the incompetent Linear Guild. Also, I don't think it's the type of story that Rich would write.

[Rastafast]

If Belkar gets a competant lawyer, who knows all the facts.
I dont belive he can be found guilty in a LG court.

He killed someone ,yes...murder no.

[Elfwitch]

I don't think Belkar will ever come to trial because Rich writes the comic with the belief that PCs actions are not the same as NPCs so they do not suffer the same consquences for their misdeeds as NPCs.

[AllisterH]

If Belkar gets a competant lawyer, who knows all the facts.
I dont belive he can be found guilty in a LG court.

He killed someone ,yes...murder no.

BLINKS

BLINKS

Wait...Killing someone NOT in self-defense and NOT to escape unjust imprisonment isn't Murder?
:smallconfused:

[Professor Tanhauser]

BLINKS

BLINKS

Wait...Killing someone NOT in self-defense and NOT to escape unjust imprisonment isn't Murder?
:smallconfused:

But he was doing it to escape unjust imprisonment.

[Lord Zentei]

But he was doing it to escape unjust imprisonment.

Makes no difference. If you kill a prison guard, the fact that the charges were trumped up doesn't migitate that one iota.

[Professor Tanhauser]

BLINKS

BLINKS

Wait...Killing someone NOT in self-defense and NOT to escape unjust imprisonment isn't Murder?
:smallconfused:


Makes no difference. If you kill a prison guard, the fact that the charges were trumped up doesn't migitate that one iota.Well, if I were on the jury and it turned out that someone had been knowingly falsely imprisoned and killed to escape, I'd certainly take it into consideration and likely vote "not guilty", judge's instructions aside.

[Hallavast]

Well if the trial ever takes place and is finished, I am certain Belkar will be found guilty. However, I firmly believe the trial will be interupted by an attack on the city...

[slayerx]

Y'know, putting aside whether or not Azure city has laws the protect prisoners from wrongful imprisonment, especially under the actions of the saphire guard who feel like they have jursidition everywhere for the sake of serving their gods and protecting the gates...

I think someone made a good point when they brought up Belkar leaving a message taughting Miko to come get him... I mean, for one thing, the guard killed was unarmed and did nothing to prevent Belkar's escape, Thus Belkar used excessive force when dealing with his "opressor"... second, by leaving that message specifically so he can duke it out with Miko, Belkar went beyond the protection... Instead of fighting against tranny that was placed upon him, he took it a step furthar and was down right taking advantage of his position. Instead of escaping using only the amount of force nessasary to fight against the wrongs done to him, he took full advantage of the situation to commit as much murder and pain he desired... bring in some character wittnesses that can point out how sick and murderous he is, and i don't think any jury could stand by him, much less a lawful GOOD judge, maybe lawful neutral, but not so much good

[Professor Tanhauser]

But I think belkar could offer a, um, unique and possibly quite convincing argument to bolster his case.

Basically he could claim that miko was such an arrogant bitch that he just HAD to take her down, and that her arrogance drove hik to leave the message goading her to follow him so he could fight her.

I mean, he could call hinjo, roy, the rest of the order and possibly everyone who ever knew miko as witnesses to testify that she really could drive people over the edge with her self righteous arrogance, and let's face it, belkar was a hell of a lot closer to the edge than most people to beging with...

[SteveMB]

Put these two together and a "bite me" won't help him much, it would only add a "contempt for court" charge.
No doubt, and I think Belkar would heartily affirm that he holds the court in contempt and get himself in that much deeper. :smallbiggrin:

[slayerx]

But I think belkar could offer a, um, unique and possibly quite convincing argument to bolster his case.

Basically he could claim that miko was such an arrogant bitch that he just HAD to take her down, and that her arrogance drove hik to leave the message goading her to follow him so he could fight her.

I mean, he could call hinjo, roy, the rest of the order and possibly everyone who ever knew miko as witnesses to testify that she really could drive people over the edge with her self righteous arrogance, and let's face it, belkar was a hell of a lot closer to the edge than most people to beging with...

Ok, i don't think that would bolster his defence...
Where your going sounds more like going for a plea of insanity, considering your talking about Belkar being driven to kill Miko for being an arrogant b*tch

grant it, character witnesses would however lead back to conclusion that Belkar isn't insane and that he's just plain murderous...

also, not everyone was driven over the edge by Miko... Hinjo was never pushed over the edge really. she killed his uncle and even THAT wasn't enough to drive him over the edge... not to mention, that he's known her for YEARS and has never been pushed over the edge; infact until recent incidents i think Hinjo reguarded her with a certain amount of understanding.