Junkyard Wars in the Playground I

[Kazudo]

Welcome to Junkyard Stadium! It is in this hallowed pile of miscellaneous parts that we will hold a competition of Practical Optimization with three components: The catch? Competitors may not use the third item in their builds!

Contestants: You will need to present a write-up of your build at at least one of the following points: 5th level, 10th level, 15th, 20th, and a "sweet spot" that you feel is the high point of the build, as well as presenting a fully-fleshed out 20-level build in the table below. Feel free to present as many of these as you like, and please give a rundown of the build's abilities and playability at all of the levels you didn't show. The rules are as follows:

Goal: For most challenges, the "special components" will be drawn from Core plus Completes. There will, from time to time, be special challenges that showcase secret ingredients from other books--for example, the XPH.

32 point-buy is the presumed creation method, but we have generally allowed other levels of point-buy.
If you do use a different point-buy, please make your case for its necessity in your entry. Keep in mind that for using exceptionally large or small point-buys may warrant deductions in Build Stability and/or Power.

Workshop: Competitors will be free to use any official 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon magazine is disallowed, and Unearthed Arcana is allowed; but see Build Stability below. Web-exclusive 3.0 or 3.5 materials by WotC are expressly allowed, but take care to verify that an updated version did not appear in print elsewhere, as this may cause an Build Stability deduction at the judges' discretion. If you use web material, link it. Dragon Magazine Compendium is allowed. Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt are not allowed, as they create a different playing field. Also, item familiars are forbidden because I hate 'em. Please refrain from using Taint unless it's necessary for one or more of the Components.

Completion Time: Contestants will have until 11:59 PM GMT Thursday, April 3rd, 2014 to create their builds and PM them to the Chairman, Kazudo. Builds will then be posted simultaneously, to avoid copying. Judges will have until 11:59 PM GMT Thursday, April 17th, 2014 to judge the builds and submit their scores. If no judges have scored by that point, only the scores of the first judge to submit will be counted.

Judging: Judging will be based on the following criteria, with each build rated from 1 (very poor) to 5 (exemplary) in each area: Originality, Power, and Build Stability.

Power level is up to you. Cheese is acceptable, but should be kept to a sane level. Using words similar to another competition's predecessor, "A little cheese is ok, but avoid the mature gruyere unless making a cheese fondue." Or something similar, but with junkyard builds.

Build Stability is a change from the Iron Chef vein of competitions: If you're coming from one of those, it's a synergy of Elegance and Use of Secret Ingredient. Since the builds in this competition will inevitably be build differently than a meal, I've altered this judging term. It's a combination of terms to ensure that the build uses every component and that they synergize well together. The more class dips that a build has, the less stable it will be. The simpler the mechanics, the less chance of something going wrong.

Presentation: Builds will be posted anonymously, in order to avoid the potential of bias towards a particular competitor. For this reason, please don't put your name in the build, as I'm likely to miss it when reviewing the entries!


Due to concerns about standardizing entry format, I'd like everyone to try to use the following table for their entry.NAME OF ENTRY
{table=head]Level|Class|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Skills|Feats|Class Features

1st|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

2nd|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

3rd|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

4th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

5th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

6th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

7th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

8th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

9th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

10th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

11th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

12th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

13th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

14th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

15th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

16th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

17th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

18th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

19th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

20th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities[/table]

CodeNAME OF ENTRY
{table=head]Level|Class|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Skills|Feats|Class Features

1st|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

2nd|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

3rd|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

4th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

5th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

6th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

7th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

8th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

9th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

10th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

11th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

12th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

13th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

14th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

15th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

16th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

17th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

18th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

19th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

20th|New Class Level|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities[/table]

For entries with spellcasting, use the following table for Spells per day and Spells Known. (Spells Known only if necessary, i.e. Sorcerer or Bard, but not Wizard or Warmage)Spells per day/Spells Known
{table=head]Level|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th

1st|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

2nd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

3rd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

4th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

5th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

6th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

7th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

8th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

9th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

10th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

11th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

12th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

13th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

14th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

15th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

16th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

17th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

18th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

19th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

20th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-[/table]

CodeSpells per day/Spells Known
{table=head]Level|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th

1st|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

2nd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

3rd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

4th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

5th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

6th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

7th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

8th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

9th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

10th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

11th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

12th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

13th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

14th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

15th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

16th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

17th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

18th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

19th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

20th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-[/table]

For other systems (Psionics, ToB, Incarnum, etc.) keep track of PP/maneuvers/essentia separately, preferably in a nice neat list.

Speculation: Please don't post or speculate on possible builds until the "reveal," in order to avoid spoiling the surprise if a particular competitor is producing a build along those lines.

Leadership is banned; we're creating one things, not a zillion things. If your entry includes a prestige class or ACF that grants Leadership or a Leadership-like ability as a bonus feat, the feat should be ignored and is not eligible to be traded away for another feat or ACF through any means.

So! Who wants to sign up as a contestant, and who wants to sign up as a judge? Looking for as many contestants and judges as feel like playing!

This competition has two Necessary Ingredients, and one Forbidden ingredient. The ingredients are:

1. Originally introduced in the Player's Handbook: The Sneak Attack Class Feature!
2. Originally introduced in the Dungeon Master's Guide: The Shadowdancer Prestige Class!
And the forbidden ingredient:
3. Originally introduced in the Player's Handbook: The Rogue Base Class!

We will award 1st through 3rd places, as well as a shout-out for honorable mention. The honorable mention prize is given to the most daring or unexpected build. Contestants are invited to vote for honorable mention via PM. Everyone else can vote in-thread.

Ready? Steady? Get to the junkyard and start building!

[Darkcouch]

Good concept, but I would advise using prestige classes that have not been used by Iron Chef or you will likely get rehashes of builds over there.

There isn't any reason to use terrible PCs either if you are already going to limit an entry class or class feature.

[Kazudo]

This is a test run, so I'm attempting to do something relatively simple.

[Seerow]

I like the concept here more than I do for Iron Chef. I may take a shot at this.

[NoACWarrior]

So what do we have to do to enter?

I'm still trying to figure out if the build I have in mind is viable...

Edit: new stuff to add new post...

[G.Cube]

Just asking to confirm, there's no fluff or back story needing to be in the final build?

Just asking to make sure, I'll be giving this a shot either way, granted I find the time to sit down and dip through the scrap and material!

[Kazudo]

Draw it up, put it into the format above, and PM it to me.

[Tarlek Flamehai]

I want in, just a few questions before I get started.

No Dragon Magazines, what about the Dragon Compendium?
Are Rogue Variant classes allowed?
Do other forms of precision damage count as Sneak Attack, or does the class feature have to be labeled Sneak Attack?

[Kazudo]

I want in, just a few questions before I get started.

No Dragon Magazines, what about the Dragon Compendium?
Are Rogue Variant classes allowed?
Do other forms of precision damage count as Sneak Attack, or does the class feature have to be labeled Sneak Attack?

Answers: DMC is allowed. Rogue variants are not. If it modifies the Rogue Base class, it's not allowed. It has to be Sneak Attack. Things like Sudden Strike and Skirmish don't fill the bill.

It's going to be a few similar builds, I'm aware. This is kind of a maiden voyage, and if it works (even crappily), then the next few will be more challenging and varied.

[NoACWarrior]

Ok I think I made a way for it to be viable, I'm in.

Just to confirm, does sneak have to be incorporated by level 1?
How much sneak attack must exist?
Does sneak attack have to exist as a class skill?

I am asking this because its possible to use magic to get sneak attack, and its further possible to get sneak attack from magic items emulating said magic. Also, some base / PrCs have low sneak attack progression. I'll be using sneak attack but I just don't know how much I will have if I have to take 10 levels of SD.

Also, what level do we have to take shadow dancer of, and how many levels should we have of SD by level 20?

[NoACWarrior]

Ok, a few more questions:

Do we get just enough XP to reach level 20?
What about XP penalties from multiclassing base classes?
What about magic item creation (this includes creation of effigies and / or constructs from an artificer)?

I assume that multiclassing penalties will get a lower score due to "harder to pull off in a real game" but what is or isn't allowed in terms of spending XP or taking XP penalties?

[justiceforall]

Posting to say I like the idea - specifically the build stability bonus score.

[Sian]

Full Shadowdancer?

[Windstorm]

Thinking about taking a shot at this, my only question (so far): what is the ruling on the lurk's psionic sneak attack? its technically not sneak attack as the normal class feature, but only because it requires psionic focus to function.

[Kazudo]

Ok I think I made a way for it to be viable, I'm in.

Just to confirm, does sneak have to be incorporated by level 1?
How much sneak attack must exist?
Does sneak attack have to exist as a class skill?

I am asking this because its possible to use magic to get sneak attack, and its further possible to get sneak attack from magic items emulating said magic. Also, some base / PrCs have low sneak attack progression. I'll be using sneak attack but I just don't know how much I will have if I have to take 10 levels of SD.

Also, what level do we have to take shadow dancer of, and how many levels should we have of SD by level 20?

You typically want to maximize the effectiveness of both ingredients. Depending on magical items for things like PRC qualification and other such things may unfortunately cause you to take a hit in build stability depending on the judges.

That being said, the better use of the PRC and the class feature, typically the better the score.

Speaking of judges, would anyone like to step up to that plate? Competitors need not apply of course.

EDIT: I personally don't use the multiclassing XP rule. However, any judges we acquire might, and it may cause your build to be less stable if you don't account for it. Same thing, for example, with LA buyoff and magical item creation. A safe assumption is that you have the XP necessary to reach 20th level. There have been pages of conversation about this on Iron Chef over the years, and really it comes down to personal taste.

As far as Psionic Sneak Attack goes, let me look at it a bit and ponder. Other forms of precision damage don't count, but that's not to say that this one won't.

[Gwachitallemall]

Why not? I'll judge. Will post my criteria when not on phone. Need to revise it.

On my thoughts on psionic sneak attack, it doesn't count because it is not the sneak attack class feature. Neither would assassin's stance count as your only form of sneak attack. Both would get a 0 in build stability if they are the only forms of sneak attack you have.

[Kazudo]

Why not? I'll judge. Will post my criteria when not on phone. Need to revise it.

On my thoughts on psionic sneak attack, it doesn't count because it is not the sneak attack class feature. Neither would assassin's stance count as your only form of sneak attack. Both would get a 0 in build stability if they are the only forms of sneak attack you have.

Duly noted. I'll have to read both of those before I make a decision either way, but welcome aboard!

[Seerow]

Why not? I'll judge. Will post my criteria when not on phone. Need to revise it.

On my thoughts on psionic sneak attack, it doesn't count because it is not the sneak attack class feature. Neither would assassin's stance count as your only form of sneak attack. Both would get a 0 in build stability if they are the only forms of sneak attack you have.

I can understand no psionic sneak attack, but assassin's stance explicitly states "you gain the sneak attack ability, if you do not already have it".

[dysprosium]

Count me in on this competition one way or the other.

It is an interesting concept for build competitions.

Assassin's stance grants sneak attack yes, but it is not a class feature. It is a feature of the maneuver, not a class.

[Gwachitallemall]

I can understand no psionic sneak attack, but assassin's stance explicitly states "you gain the sneak attack ability, if you do not already have it".

I feel that as assassin's stance says ability and not class feature, it wouldn't count. If the original post said ability and not class feature, it would.

This is clarified by the stance saying later on if you have the class feature, your SA ability is increased, which makes me feel that tje class featute and the ability to use sneak attack are seperate.

Now I Will judge the damage if it's not your only form of sneak attack, but of it is the only form of SA ,.barring a ruling from the chair, it will get a 0.

[Kazudo]

Alright. Ruling on Assassin's Stance: [REDACTED, see later on in the competition. Sorry for confusion.]

Ruling on Psionic Sneak Attack: Yes, but. Yes, it will qualify as a class ability for the purposes of the competition. However, relying on psionic focus might get you docked in Build Stability. Though that's a judge call.

Another thing that might come up: Any races which grant Sneak Attack will be considered essentially granting it as the class feature.

[Gwachitallemall]

Good enough, so basically, if I can extrapolate from that, then, anything that is a class or race that says sneak attack anywhere in the name (not the description) will count. Stances and magic items only count for extra points, not to start off the full process. Seem right?

[Kazudo]

Good enough, so basically, if I can extrapolate from that, then, anything that is a class or race that says sneak attack anywhere in the name (not the description) will count. Stances and magic items only count for extra points, not to start off the full process. Seem right?

Correct. That's the ruling I'm going to be working from for this specific episode.

In a slight deviation from the norm (though not entirely), entrants and spectators alike can PM me with an ingredient combination they'd like to see in future episodes. I won't guarantee that it'll be used as is, at all, or that the requester will get any kind of credit for it, but I'll gladly consider any and all requests for future episodes.

EDIT:


Just asking to confirm, there's no fluff or back story needing to be in the final build?

I missed this somehow.

Fluff or back story is at the entrant's discretion. Will writing an epic poem help your scores, or would it be better to just lay out the bare bones and let the build speak for itself? That's up to the judges. I can say that putting some fluff and glitz in your entry, notes as to specific build synergies, an additional section with "alternate suggestions" in case certain things are allowed in personal games where they aren't here (Item Familiars, flaws, alternate rule systems like fractional saves and BAB, etc), all of that may make your build appear more stable and give the judges more to think about when it comes to how to accurately judge your build.

It's the user's guide to the airplane. Sure, it may only have three buttons and a throttle. However, it would still be nice to have an operator's manual.

[Prime32]

Dragon magazine isn't allowed, but is Dragon Compendium?

[Tarlek Flamehai]

Dragon magazine isn't allowed, but is Dragon Compendium?

Yes, answered in Post #9.

[Kazudo]

Edited the OP to reflect that. In the same vein as ICitP, I may end up making an FAQ post as the second post in the thread in future iterations.

[Seerow]

Full Shadowdancer?

Seconding this question. Are we required to have the full 10 levels of shadowdancer, and/or will taking less than a full 10 levels of it hurt out score? Or is it fine as long as Shadowdancer is a central component of the build?

[Tarlek Flamehai]

Seconding this question. Are we required to have the full 10 levels of shadowdancer, and/or will taking less than a full 10 levels of it hurt out score? Or is it fine as long as Shadowdancer is a central component of the build?
Post #15
"You typically want to maximize the effectiveness of both ingredients." I would say that means fewer Shadowdancer levels=lower score.

Is this class allowed?
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b

[Kazudo]

Seconding this question. Are we required to have the full 10 levels of shadowdancer, and/or will taking less than a full 10 levels of it hurt out score? Or is it fine as long as Shadowdancer is a central component of the build?

Well put answer, actually, to the question.

Taking all 10 levels of the PRC aren't required, in fact, taking all 10 levels isn't a great way to guarantee Build Stability points. However, whenever a PRC is a required element in the build, it needs to be a central component.

It's the equivalent of handing you a full sized diesel and steam engine and telling you to make me a boat. Will you need to use every last component, pipe, filter, and flange? Doubtful. Will the boat still need to feature and apply the engine as the primary focus? Yep.

[Seerow]

Well put answer, actually, to the question.

Taking all 10 levels of the PRC aren't required, in fact, taking all 10 levels isn't a great way to guarantee Build Stability points. However, whenever a PRC is a required element in the build, it needs to be a central component.

It's the equivalent of handing you a full sized diesel and steam engine and telling you to make me a boat. Will you need to use every last component, pipe, filter, and flange? Doubtful. Will the boat still need to feature and apply the engine as the primary focus? Yep.

Fair enough.

[Gwachitallemall]

Here's my post on my Criteria:

Starting from a Base Score of 3:

Originality: Was the Race Expected? -.5 if yes, +.5 if no. +0 if no, but used by other players. Was the Base Class Expected? -.5 if yes, +.5 if no. +0 if no, but used by other players. Known Cheese: Yes -.5 Jaw Dropping Awesome: Yes +.5 Unique Mechanics Yes +.5 No -.5

Power: In a vacuum, unrelated to other builds, Offense, Defense, Utility: 3/3 +1 2/3 +.5 1/3 -.5 0/3 -1 Stand Alone: Yes +.5 No -.5 How do you compare to a baseline build of 20 of your base class: Good +.5 Bad -.5 Equal +0

Build Stability: Do you have at least 5 levels of the PRC, and 5d6 of Sneak Attack?: 2/2 +1 1/2 +0 0/2 -1 How does your build tie together? Well, no Multiclass or Dips +.5 one of Multiclass or Dip +0 Both Multiclass and Dips -.5
Is Shadowdancer core to the build: Yes +.5 No -.5
Bonus Points: How many Sources do you use? 7 or less: +.5

(Additional Penalty: Kender are -.5 to start with.
Well..
No, not really. I hate Kenders though.)

[Tarlek Flamehai]

Is this class allowed?
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b

Any chance you have an answer for his yet?

Thanks!

[mabriss lethe]

With the impending forum shutdown starting tomorrow, continuing until...whenever, you might want to extend the entry deadline by at least a few days.

That said, I'm tentatively interested in working up an entry.

[sakuuya]

Is this class allowed?
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b

Rogue variants aren't allowed, so this shouldn't be.

Also, posting interest as a competitor. My 3.5 skills are crazy-rusty, but this challenge looks like fun.

[Kazudo]

Any chance you have an answer for his yet?

Thanks!

It's almost a carbon copy of the rogue but with power points. I'm going to say that it isn't.

[Kazudo]

With the impending forum shutdown starting tomorrow, continuing until...whenever, you might want to extend the entry deadline by at least a few days.

Sorry to doublepost. When the forums come back online, I'll extend deadlines and such to match the amount of time lost since there isn't a guaranteed return date.

[Gem_Knight]

Interested I think, kind of busy today, but will give it a shot when I can.


Edit* well crud, figures the site shutdown was coming >.<

also- question- can we use 3.0 classes or PrCs if they don't have a 3.5 equivalent?

[OMG PONIES]

Yeah, in as a contestant. Things just started to come together for me. Hopefully I'll be able to do my book-diving while the boards are down and come back with a build ready to go. You know, hopefully.

[Kazudo]

Can we use 3.0 classes or PrCs if they don't have a 3.5 equivalent?

If it's never been updated in an accepted source to 3.5, it's still rules legal. Make sure that it hasn't though. Web enhancements count as updates, however (for example) Oriental Adventures was updated in a Dragon Magazine issue, which we aren't allowing, therefore we're acting as though it never happened.


Yeah, in as a contestant. Things just started to come together for me. Hopefully I'll be able to do my book-diving while the boards are down and come back with a build ready to go. You know, hopefully.

Ah! Good! Folk from the popular competition coming to humor the newbie!

[dysprosium]

What am I chopped liver?

[Sian]

What am I chopped liver?

i don't know ... how do you taste?

[PsyBomb]

I build a lot better in PF, but I'm more than happy to judge if you still need one.

My priorities are along the lines of simplicity, dedication, versatility, and fun.

Simplicity: Do i have to dig through six sourcebooks outside of the Core to understand just how you get that last point of damage through? This is my way of thinking on the Stability grade.
Dedication: Does the build maintain the theme through its entirety, as opposed to "enough to say I used it."
Versatility: Can it do something OTHER than just what the theme is?
Fun: Probably the most ephemeral of qualities, but also probably the most important. Could you take the build into a regular game to actually play it?

Each of these would be worth 2.5 points, and I'll put up more specific point-by-point grade sheet if I'm accepted as. Ties will go to the higher Fun score, followed by Dedication, Simplicity, and Versatility.

[Kazudo]

I build a lot better in PF, but I'm more than happy to judge if you still need one.

My priorities are along the lines of simplicity, dedication, versatility, and fun.

Simplicity: Do i have to dig through six sourcebooks outside of the Core to understand just how you get that last point of damage through? This is my way of thinking on the Stability grade.
Dedication: Does the build maintain the theme through its entirety, as opposed to "enough to say I used it."
Versatility: Can it do something OTHER than just what the theme is?
Fun: Probably the most ephemeral of qualities, but also probably the most important. Could you take the build into a regular game to actually play it?

Each of these would be worth 2.5 points, and I'll put up more specific point-by-point grade sheet if I'm accepted as. Ties will go to the higher Fun score, followed by Dedication, Simplicity, and Versatility.

As long as you phrase all of those to fit into Originality, Power, and Build Stability terms then we'll be all good.

ALRIGHT. After a bit of conversation with a few folk outside of the Playground, I've decided to reverse a decision I've made. Growing pains, new chairman of a new competition, whatever waffling excuse I need.

If it grants you Sneak Attack, it will qualify you for the competition. Class feature, racial feature, acquired template, whatever it is. HOWEVER, it should be worth mentioning that if you lose your Sneak Attack for whatever reason (shifting stances, not casting specific spells, walking into an AMF, whatever) you will probably be dinged in terms of Build Stability. That means that my previous decision on Assassin's stance should be completely ignored. As long as you get die of Sneak Attack from somewhere, you qualify.


What am I chopped liver?

As a person who needs no introduction...well...uh...Look! A poorly defined class that could be completely rebuilt using other classes! *ducks*

[OMG PONIES]

Oriental Adventures was updated in a Dragon Magazine issue, which we aren't allowing, therefore we're acting as though it never happened.

So I get to use all the 3.0 Oriental Adventures material I want without fear of reprocussions? :smallamused:

[Kazudo]

So I get to use all the 3.0 Oriental Adventures material I want without fear of reprocussions? :smallamused:

As long as it hasn't been updated, yaknow, ANYWHERE ELSE. :smalltongue:

[Zombulian]

Alright. Ruling on Assassin's Stance: [REDACTED, see later on in the competition. Sorry for confusion.]

Ruling on Psionic Sneak Attack: Yes, but. Yes, it will qualify as a class ability for the purposes of the competition. However, relying on psionic focus might get you docked in Build Stability. Though that's a judge call.

Another thing that might come up: Any races which grant Sneak Attack will be considered essentially granting it as the class feature.

In the vein of using races to grant SA, would I say, be able to use a shapechanging ability from a class I use to turn into a race with Sneak Attack as my source?

[Kazudo]

In the vein of using races to grant SA, would I say, be able to use a shapechanging ability from a class I use to turn into a race with Sneak Attack as my source?

Well, without speculating TOO much (if you have specifics, PM me for details), I'd have to say that's going to be a go. Originally it was going to be the "Class Feature", but I think now it's pretty much the Sneak Attack game mechanic. No, Sudden Strike, Skirmish, etc. are not allowed still. However, you could theoretically do so. Keep in mind that varying too much from sanity could cause some issues in Build Stability at the whim of the judges.

[PsyBomb]

As long as you phrase all of those to fit into Originality, Power, and Build Stability terms then we'll be all good.


They all do. Dedication and Versatility fall under Power. Fun falls under Originality. Simplicity is my version of Stability. I'll rearrange them for the final grading style

[Kazudo]

They all do. Dedication and Versatility fall under Power. Fun falls under Originality. Simplicity is my version of Stability. I'll rearrange them for the final grading style

Ah. Good. Whatever helps you judge to the best of your ability!

[OMG PONIES]

Will the judges deduct if my guy has brown hair with blonde highlights instead of being a natural blonde? :smalltongue:

[mabriss lethe]

I was fiddling around with some ideas for an entry and ran into a conundrum that I asked about on a different thread and I haven't recieved a satisfactory answered yet, so I'm asking you for a ruling on it for the context of this contest, if nothing else.

Here we go. Just how does the HD progression for Summon Shadow work? Nothing adds up. The ability's text doesn't match the example given, nor does it completely match the hard and fast numbers given for the Epic Shadowdancer version (which is 3.0 and doesn't seem to completely mesh with the 3.5 version in any case).

1. The text implies that the HD would start at 5 and cap at 9. (3 for the base creature and +2 for every 3 levels of shadow dancer.) there isn't any language to imply that the first 3 levels aren't figured into the equation.

2. The example given is a 6 HD shadow attached to a Level 9 shadowdancer. That's only possible if instead of gaining +2HD / 3 levels, they instead meant that it possessed 2 HD/3 levels. (2 HD to start at 3rd, and 2 each at 6 and 9) Not the same thing. It also does not match the HD progression in the ELH (explained below.)

3. The Epic Level Handbook continues the progression using the same language as the standard PrC, but actually lists HD in the table. It states that at 12 level a summoned shadow would have 9HD (3 for base creature +2 at 6, 9, and 12) That's only possible if the language of the original version was meant to include a statement such as "For every 3 levels beyond the third." or something similar. Again, it also doesn't mesh with the implied math of stated example in the DMG, which would give you 8 HD at 12.

[Mongobear]

Workshop:[/B] Competitors will be free to use any official 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon magazine is disallowed, and Unearthed Arcana is allowed; but see Build Stability below. Web-exclusive 3.0 or 3.5 materials by WotC are expressly allowed, but take care to verify that an updated version did not appear in print elsewhere, as this may cause an Build Stability deduction at the judges' discretion. If you use web material, link it. Dragon Magazine Compendium is allowed. Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt are not allowed, as they create a different playing field. Also, item familiars are forbidden because I hate 'em. Please refrain from using Taint unless it's necessary for one or more of the Components.


I am expressing interest in this assuming theres still time, however with a question about this part.

Are you allowing the "Generic Classes" from Unearthed Arcana? I can see an arguement for both sides of them being allowed, I would just like a solid Yes/No before I use them.

[Seerow]

I am expressing interest in this assuming theres still time, however with a question about this part.

Are you allowing the "Generic Classes" from Unearthed Arcana? I can see an arguement for both sides of them being allowed, I would just like a solid Yes/No before I use them.

I believe the intent was to allow variants of established classes (like Wildshape Ranger, Thug Fighter, etc), and not allow alternate systems (such as Bloodlines, Flaws, Generic Classes, etc). But I'd wait for a response from Kazudo to be sure.

[Kazudo]

I believe the intent was to allow variants of established classes (like Wildshape Ranger, Thug Fighter, etc), and not allow alternate systems (such as Bloodlines, Flaws, Generic Classes, etc). But I'd wait for a response from Kazudo to be sure.

As far as this is concerned, I'm afraid Seerow is 100% correct. You can feel free to put an "adaptations" section at the end of your build to put in anything you had to avoid doing that would count as an Alternate System.

Concerning the Shadow's HD, we're going with the standard Text over Table.

[Seerow]

I think I've got my build done. I'm working on touch ups and text explanations/snapshots now.

I will probably wait until after the maintenance to submit though, since the table format's going to be messed up and I want to test the new table formatting before submitting.


Edit: What's the typical length for these things? And do judges typical penalize for going too short/too long? I've never paid much attention to Iron Chef, so how these things normally work is a mystery to me.

I ask because I'm worried my post is going a little long.

[PsyBomb]

So, my by-point views

Simplicity: If you can manage it using only Core plus no more than 2 books, all 2.5 points. Every additional book is going to be a half-point off.

Dedication: I'll post my minimums each round, but for this one it's 5d6 Sneak and 5 levels of Shadowdancer, losing a half-point per die or level missed.

Versatility: A bit subjective, but I'm looking for you do be able to do at least one other thing nearly as effectively as what you're building for. Not an easy category to max, and I expect most people to be getting less than 2 points. In this case, I'm looking for either a secondary combat trick to Sneak Attack, or significant out-of-combat utility.

Fun: Could you take the build into a regular game to actually play it? I'm looking for a T3-4 power range and some uniqueness to set you apart from your average Lidda and Tordek.

Each of these maxes out at 2.5 points

[Kazudo]

I think I've got my build done. I'm working on touch ups and text explanations/snapshots now.

I will probably wait until after the maintenance to submit though, since the table format's going to be messed up and I want to test the new table formatting before submitting.


Edit: What's the typical length for these things? And do judges typical penalize for going too short/too long? I've never paid much attention to Iron Chef, so how these things normally work is a mystery to me.

I ask because I'm worried my post is going a little long.

There isn't a length cap. Preferrably (for my own sake) one post length. But, I dunno. It ought to be, as some people say, similar to a poem: Long enough to cover the subject, short enough to be interesting.

[Kazudo]

So, my by-point views

Simplicity: If you can manage it using only Core plus no more than 2 books, all 2.5 points. Every additional book is going to be a half-point off.

Dedication: I'll post my minimums each round, but for this one it's 5d6 Sneak and 5 levels of Shadowdancer, losing a half-point per die or level missed.

Versatility: A bit subjective, but I'm looking for you do be able to do at least one other thing nearly as effectively as what you're building for. Not an easy category to max, and I expect most people to be getting less than 2 points. In this case, I'm looking for either a secondary combat trick to Sneak Attack, or significant out-of-combat utility.

Fun: Could you take the build into a regular game to actually play it? I'm looking for a T3-4 power range and some uniqueness to set you apart from your average Lidda and Tordek.

Each of these maxes out at 2.5 points

Again. Sorry to double post.

Can you repost your criteria and point-buy views within the purview of Originality, Power, and Build Stability, and keep in mind that scores run from 1-5 points. That way, it'll be easy for us to tally up winners, and there wouldn't be a lot of translation and conversion from your judging to the others?

For my sake and the sake of competitors trying to play to your respects!

[PsyBomb]

Will do, as soon as I get back to my computer instead of a phone.

[Inevitability]

I may be interested in this. It's nice to see another build competition.

[OMG PONIES]

And we're back! Still looking to get entries by Wednesday, Kazudo?

[Kazudo]

I think I'll extend until Thursday to allow people to stumble back in.

My, but this forum update sure is swanky.

[Kuulvheysoon]

You know, I had forgotten about this. I may very well try and get something done for this.

Also, neat Optimization tag.

[Kazudo]

You know, I had forgotten about this. I may very well try and get something done for this.

Also, neat Optimization tag.

Right?!

Because the dashing, considerate, wonderful chairperson (whoever the daring build-without-rogue-base-class he or she may be) extended the deadline, you have until Thursday to get a submission to me!

In case people are stumbling back into the playground blind drunk, the table posted in the OP will no longer work. I suck at building tables and coding so I have NO idea what the new table needs to look like (and am kind of hoping I can rob the formatting off of a submission or three to get it replaced for future competitions, assuming people want that kind of thing).

[sakuuya]

In case people are stumbling back into the playground blind drunk, the table posted in the OP will no longer work. I suck at building tables and coding so I have NO idea what the new table needs to look like (and am kind of hoping I can rob the formatting off of a submission or three to get it replaced for future competitions, assuming people want that kind of thing).

Aw, man! I suck too (to the point where I was like, "Hm, this doesn't look like new code, but...it might be?"), and I was hoping I could crib off you. :smallredface:

[Kazudo]

:eek:

Anyone with a stronger grasp of the new table mechanics than myself, please post a blank table with the new code?

If possible?

[Seerow]

Yeah I'll post a correction of the table formatting in a few minutes. (Preposting this so nobody else starts work I'm already doing. Will probably edit it into this post unless someone else posts before then)

[Kazudo]

You're a gentleman and a scholar!

[Kuulvheysoon]

:eek:

Anyone with a stronger grasp of the new table mechanics than myself, please post a blank table with the new code?

If possible?

I posted a (ugly, but serviceable) table in the Iron Chef thread, if that helps.

[Kazudo]

Why not have Seerow post his, then we both use whichever's better?

[Kuulvheysoon]

Why not have Seerow post his, then we both use whichever's better?
Then we'll be using his.:smallsigh:

Skilled at HTML, I am not.

[Kazudo]

Then we'll be using his.:smallsigh:

Skilled at HTML, I am not.

Aww. I'm not either, but at least you were able to make head or tail of the thing.

[Seerow]

Table Example:

NAME OF ENTRY
LevelClassBase Attack BonusFort SaveRef SaveWill SaveSkillsFeatsClass Features


1stNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


2ndNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


3rdNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


4thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


5thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


6thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


7thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


8thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


9thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


10thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


11thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


12thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


13thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


14thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


15thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


16thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


17thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


18thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


19thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


20thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities




Table Code:


NAME OF ENTRY
LevelClassBase Attack BonusFort SaveRef SaveWill SaveSkillsFeatsClass Features


1stNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


2ndNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


3rdNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


4thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


5thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


6thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


7thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


8thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


9thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


10thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


11thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


12thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


13thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


14thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


15thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


16thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


17thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


18thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


19thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities


20thNew Class Level+x+x+x+xSkillsNew FeatsNew Class Abilities




Given some time to play with it I can pretty it up (apparently TH's default setting is to have a lighter border than TD which is weird), but it'll work just the same.

Edit: Apparently no other styles are available for use yet, so the TH element is pretty much a waste. Going to edit the above to use TD instead, and we have to live with the tables being bland until Rawhide makes/gets us some more styles to play with.

[Zombulian]

I've been rolling the challenge over in my head for the past few days that the forum was down and it was a little frustrating to not be able to use it as a reference. I'll try to make the deadline.

[Telonius]

I think I'll have an entry. Going to have to wrestle with the table formatting, though. (Thanks for the examples, that should help a lot)

[Seerow]

So I've run into a problem. Kazudo said to keep the entry down to one post in length, and my entry is that... but apparently the PM character limit is half what the post limit is, so I went over for that.

Kazudo, do you want me to break my PM into two parts, send you a copy of the word doc you can copy/paste into the forum, or cut my post down in size?

[Tim Proctor]

I just read about this and will probably get a build in, hopefully.

[Kazudo]

So I've run into a problem. Kazudo said to keep the entry down to one post in length, and my entry is that... but apparently the PM character limit is half what the post limit is, so I went over for that.

Kazudo, do you want me to break my PM into two parts, send you a copy of the word doc you can copy/paste into the forum, or cut my post down in size?

Yeah, PM size and post size are two different things. So send it to me in two parts (making sure to mark part 1 and part 2) and I'll merge it into one entry.

[Seerow]

All right, thanks. Entry submitted.

[Kazudo]

I got both parts. Looks good. Excited to see what everyone's able to come up with though!

[PsyBomb]

I unfortunately have to withdraw as a judge. My daughter had health issues crop up while the forum was down, and I do not know how much time I will have in the future

[Kazudo]

I unfortunately have to withdraw as a judge. My daughter had health issues crop up while the forum was down, and I do not know how much time I will have in the future

Hope everything turns out ok, and feel free to return for any future installments!

[NoACWarrior]

Well, I tried to make the build viable, but alas its not anymore.

I don't want to enter the build because I think it is simply not original enough or has enough power.

I'd like to judge instead :smallbiggrin:

Given that I think I have to post a criteria, for which I'll modify the criteria from Gwachitallemall:

Originality (2 points):
Race (0.5) - Generalists get a 0.25 and Races which don’t fit well into the architype get a 0.5, expected and optimized races get a 0.
Base Class (0.5) - Using a interesting base class will get you 0.5, where as a more expected base class will net you a 0.25.
Combination of Class abilities (0.5) - being able to synergize between different classes gives you a 0.5 for 3 or more combined class abilities, with a 0.25 for only combing 2 class abilities.
Crackers with your Cheese (0.5) - 1 bit of cheese gets only 0.25 where as 0 cheese gets the full 0.5.

Power (1 point):
In combat (0.5) - if the overall build is a t3 it gets 0.5, with a t4 ranking getting 0.25.
Out of combat (0.5) - for each out of combat role the build can do it gets a 0.25.

Build Stability (1 point):
Multiclassing (0.5) - If only 1 base class is used then 0.5, if two or more 0.25, if breaking multiclassing XP penalties then 0.
Prerequisites (0.5) - If only meeting the prerequisites then 0.25, if exceeding the prerequisites then 0.5, 0 points if a prerequisites was met with some type of magic item or otherwise permanent magical type of buff which can be otherwise suppressed or dispelled.

Technique (1 point):
Use of the Special Prestige Class (0.5) - 0.25 for one ability used, and 0.5 for two or more abilities used.
Use of the Special Class Feature (0.5) - 0.1 for 1d6 sneak with no special use, 0.2 for 1d6 sneak with special use, and 0.25 for 2d6 sneak with no special use, and 0.5 for 2d6 sneak or more with a special use

[Seerow]

I'm curious, what sort of build were you planning to go with before deciding it was unworkable? (PM me if you want to avoid giving others ideas. My submission is already set, so won't change anything. Just trying to figure out if my route was as predictable as I thought it was)

[Kazudo]

Build Stability (1 point): -snip-

Technique (1 point): -snip-


Technique and Build Stability would both fall under the same category. The total judging scores (in case I was horrifically unspecific, which is probably the case here) run between 3 and 15 points upon all three categories being considered. Each category (Originality, Power, and Build Stability) work on a 1-5 point basis.

For a basic idea (keeping in mind variations, naturally) looking at previous episodes of Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground should give an idea of what I'm looking for in judging. This way, we'll keep everyone on the same page and the judging can be objectified a little easier!

[NoACWarrior]

Thanks Kazudo, I'll simply combine the two.

Seerow, I sent you the build info, if you want to use it go right ahead - I just lacked the motivation to continue it after I saw a better option to make the intended build.

[Ikeren]

How often do people deliberately tank one category in attempt to score points in others?

[Kazudo]

How often do people deliberately tank one category in attempt to score points in others?

In this competition, it's never happened. :smallwink:

In similar competitions, sometimes it comes down to needing to do so. The question arises, by taking an obvious hit in one category, do you feel confident that you'll be able to make enough points in other categories to make up for it? Ultimately, it's a game to see who can score the highest total composite score. Sometimes in order to beef power, you may have to sacrifice build stability. Sometimes in order to cap out your build stability, you may have to take a hit in originality. Sometimes when going for the most original, stable build ever, you might have to take a hit in power.

TL;DR: If you think it'll benefit you, do it. If not, recalculate and move on.

[Virdish]

I hope this works out well cause I would love to be a part of the next one. I'll be looking on closely.

[Kazudo]

I intend to do another one after this. Next time, however, there will simply be a second post for "Rules for Judging" to clear up anything, and maybe a reserved third post for an FAQ.

Learned my lesson, but it's been exciting nonetheless!

[3WhiteFox3]

I intend to do another one after this. Next time, however, there will simply be a second post for "Rules for Judging" to clear up anything, and maybe a reserved third post for an FAQ.

Learned my lesson, but it's been exciting nonetheless!

According to some of the posters, you are not allowed to double post with the new forums. So you'd have to put the other posts deeper into the thread and link to them in the main thread. I know that the Monkday guide had some issues with that, as well as the Pathfinder Grab Bag competition.

I might throw a build up, I'm not sure how much time I'll have before Thursday however.

[Ikeren]

Submitted. I hope people find it amusing.

[OMG PONIES]

According to some of the posters, you are not allowed to double post with the new forums. So you'd have to put the other posts deeper into the thread and link to them in the main thread. I know that the Monkday guide had some issues with that, as well as the Pathfinder Grab Bag competition.

This seems to be causing some confusion; it looks like double posts made in a certain window after a post are simply added to the first as updates, while those after the window appear as true double posts. I just don't know how long the window is.

[Kazudo]

Sounds like it's time for a test, methinks.

[Seerow]

I wouldn't worry too much about it. Rawhide has said that the post merging feature will be disabled soon, as they don't like the side effects it has on usability for many situations like this one. (Also for other long posts such as guides/handbooks, large homebrew, play by posts, etc)

[dysprosium]

I see that we have until the 3rd. That's good--I should be able to hammer out my build by then. :smallwink:

If I can't then I will definitely judge.

[Kazudo]

Alright, and here's a test at 10 mi-

Oh. Well. Drat. Good to hear though, Seerow. Glad they see the same things we do.

[Seerow]

According to Rawhide, the double post combining is now disabled.

[Kazudo]

According to Rawhide, the double post combining is now disabled.

Whoo! That sounds tasty. If it works out like that, I'll let ICOCitP know as well.

[Kazudo]

Aaaaaaaaand let's see how it does.

EDIT: Success!

In other news, I've received three submissions so far. I'll be posting them in a different order than I received them to ensure anonymity.

[Amphetryon]

I'll try to have a build submitted in time, term paper permitting.

[justiceforall]

Well crapola. I was going to join in on this, but I didn't take note of the closing date before the forums went down and now I only have one day.

I'll be interested to see if my idea would have been any good, it would highly depend on how much power is scored vs simplicity/etc.

Look forward to reading the submissions.

[Kazudo]

After the submissions have been revealed tomorrow, feel free to post a skeleton of what you were planning. Just for kicks.

AFTER the submissions are revealed. :smallwink:

[justiceforall]

Sounds like a plan. And yes I understand not doing it before - that would be against the rules :).

[Zombulian]

Having an exam tomorrow has turned this challenge into something less feasible than I had hoped. Which is pretty lame because I liked my idea, but I need to sleep now :/
I would still like to end up playing this character some day...

[3drinks]

I've never done one of these before, though I consider myself fairly rules-savvy (my groups always complain about my rules lawyering, power gaming, and higher levels of optimization than they're used to). I'll wait for this to finish, and try to get in on the next one. I can't wait!

Maybe someday I can judge too.

[Kazudo]

Only 9 hours remain to get those submissions in!

So far I have three submissions! It might be an easy time on any of our judges this time around, but who knows! There could be a last minute wave! See you all back at 11:59 PM!

[OMG PONIES]

Only 9 hours remain to get those submissions in!

So far I have three submissions! It might be an easy time on any of our judges this time around, but who knows! There could be a last minute wave! See you all back at 11:59 PM!

Ack, I've gotta get cracking on my submission!

[Ikeren]

I'd be happy with any competition that guarantees me a bronze medal :smallwink:

[sakuuya]

Last minute entry is last minute! And I doubt I'm threatening Ikeren's medal contention. :smallwink:

[OMG PONIES]

I've got my build all planned out, but no formatting or fluff means no entry for me.

[Ikeren]

Submitting anything competent probably threaten's my medal contention :smalltongue:

[Telonius]

So when's the Big Reveal? :smallsmile:

[Kazudo]

My ears started burning yesterday amidst the tornado sirens and internet outages. I had a feeling that I was being talked about.

PLEASE REFRAIN FROM POSTING UNTIL AFTER ALL BUILDS ARE REVEALED

[Kazudo]

Jackal! Jackal! Is it a Jackal? It's a Jackal! Jackal!


Background

For a long time, Ayesha didn't even realize that her crèche had been wiped out. She had been sent by the Marrutact who led her cell to discover and report on the activities of a rival cell when the world fell down around her ears. She'd survived earthquakes before, but never anything like this—so much of the pyramid had collapsed around her that she could neither return home nor press on toward her target cell. She didn't know how long she picked her way through the endless maze of the sunken pyramid, but with time, and with nothing but dust and vermin for company, she began to forget the rituals of her people. A fever dream, caused by the sting of a monstrous scorpion, set her on a path toward her own rituals, aimed at duplicating the prowess of the arachnids. Soon, she became so adept at mimicking a scorpion that she could will herself to take on their form, which allowed her to squeeze into previously-inaccessible areas of the pyramid. She discovered many things in her travels: rooms once inhabited by the Marru themselves, now filled with abandoned machinery of inscrutable purpose; vast treasure troves, sometimes intertwined with the bones of unlucky interlopers; verdant gardens that should never have survived in the desert outside, let alone buried deep in the pyramid below it.

She also discovered one thing more: The children of Marru were not alone in their home. Her cell had always been vigilant against the odd intruder, of course, and during her journey through the pyramid she had encountered wandering creatures that were more than odd, but her long-held that the children of Marru were the only organized force was shattered by the entity that lurked in deep darkness at the bottom of the pyramid. It granted her power in return for her service, but she knew she was its thrall. Though her eyes were accustomed to darkness, she could never determine its form, and though she was adept at concealing herself, it could always find her. For most of her life, Ayesha would have been grateful to have a superior giving her direction, but she had become used to directing herself, and she rankled when it set her to retrieve particular pieces of treasure or assassinate some other pyramid denizen. Whether or not the entity sensed her dislike, it still bestowed upon her its gifts—the ability to fade into shadows, to teleport through the darkness, even to animate her shadow as an independent entity.

It was this last that proved the entity's undoing, for Ayesha's shadow was not under the same watchful eye as Ayesha herself and (along with some careful use of poison) was able to weaken the dark entity enough that it could not defend itself when Ayesha finally turned on it. Free again, Ayesha redoubled her dedication to her scorpion rituals and to remaining independent. The pyramid, though now bereft of the children of Marru, still contained dangers in the form of newly-freed thralls and other creatures rushing to fill the power void left by the dark entity's demise, but Ayesha had mastered the shadows, and no one saw her now unless she willed it.


Build

Ayesha

N Marrulurk Fighter 2/Scorpion Heritor 8/Shadowdancer 6

Pre-Racial-Adjustment Stats: Str 12, Dex 18, Con 10, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 10
Post-Racial-Adjustment Stats: Str 14, Dex 24, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 14
Stat increases go to Dex.



Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
Marrulurk HDl

+1

+0

+2

+2

Hide 4, Know: Nature 2*, Move Silently 4, Survival 2*

Scorpion's Resolve

-


2nd
Marrulurk HD

+2

+0

+3

+3

Hide 5, Know: Nature 2.5*, Move Silently 5, Survival 2.5*

-

-


3rd
Marrulurk HD

+3

+1

+3

+3

Hide 6, Know: Nature 3*, Move Silently 6, Survival 3*

Combat Reflexes

-


4th
Marrulurk LA

+3

+1

+3

+3

-

Manyhot (Bonus Feat), Point Blank Shot (Bonus Feat)

Marrulurk Racial Features (including Sneak Attack +2d6)


5th
Fighter

+4

+3

+3

+3

Hide 7*, Know: Nature 3.5*, Survival 3.5*

Precise Shot (Bonus Feat)

-


6th
Fighter

+5

+4

+3

+3

Hide 8*, Know: Nature 4*, Survival 4*

Dodge (Bonus Feat)

-


7th
Scorpion Heritor

+5

+6

+3

+3

Hide 9, Know: Nature 5, Move Silently 9, Perform: Dance 5

Mobility, Scorpion's Instinct (Bonus Feat)

-


8th
Scorpion Heritor

+6

+7

+3

+3

Hide 10, Move Silently 10, Survival 5, Use Magic Device 7

-

Sneak Attack +3d6


9th
Scorpion Heritor

+7

+7

+4

+4

Craft: Poison 4, Hide 11, Move Silently 11, Use Magic Device 11

-

Scorpion Form


10th
Shadowdancer

+7

+7

+6

+4

Craft: Poison 6*, Hide 12, Move Silently 12, Use Magic Device 12*

Darkstalker

Hide in Plain Sight


11th
Shadowdancer

+8

+7

+7

+4

Craft: Poison 8*, Hide 13, Move Silently 13, Use Magic Device 13*

-

Evasion, Uncanny Dodge


12th
Shadowdancer

+9

+8

+7

+5

Craft: Poison 10*, Hide 14, Move Silently 14, Use Magic Device 14*

-

Shadow Illusion, Summon Shadow (5 HD)


13th
Shadowdancer

+10

+8

+8

+5

Craft: Poison 12*, Hide 15, Move Silently 15, Use Magic Device 15*

Able Sniper

Shadow Jump 20 ft


14th
Shadowdancer

+10

+8

+8

+5

Craft: Poison 14*, Hide 16, Move Silently 16, Use Magic Device 16*

-

Defensive Roll, Improved Uncanny Dodge


15th
Shadowdancer

+11

+9

+9

+6

Craft: Poison 16*, Hide 17, Move Silently 17, Use Magic Device 17*

-

Shadow Jump 40 ft, Shadow Companion (7 HD)


16th
Scorpion Heritor

+12

+10

+9

+6

Craft: Poison 18, Hide 18, Listen 5, Move Silently 18, Use Magic Device 18

Woodland Archer

Sneak Attack +4d6


17th
Scorpion Heritor

+12

+10

+9

+6

Craft: Poison 19, Hide 19, Listen 11, Move Silently 19, Use Magic Device 19

-

Envenom Blade, Immunity to Scorpion Venom


18th
Scorpion Heritor

+13

+11

+10

+7

Craft: Poison 20, Hide 20, Listen 17, Move Silently 20, Use Magic Device 20

-

Sneak Attack +5d6


19th
Scorpion Heritor

+14

+11

+10

+7

Craft: Poison 21, Hide 21, Listen 21, Move Silently 21, Survival 7, Use Magic Device 21

Craven, Scorpion's Sense (Bonus Feat)

-


20th
Scorpion Heritor

+15

+12

+10

+7

Craft: Poison 22, Hide 22, Listen 22, Move Silently 22, Survival 12, Use Magic Device 22

-

Sneak Attack +6d6


* indicates a skill that is cross-class the given level

Marrulurk Racial Features: Death Attack, Nauseating Breath, Poison Use, Sneak Attack +2d6, Darkvision 60 ft., Low Light Vision, Discriminating Hearing, Desiccation Resistance 10, Fire Resistance 5.


Tactics

In General

In combat, Ayesha works best as a hit-and-hide sniper (and I mean "sniper" as in the Hide skill use, not "attacking from very far away"). She pops out of hiding to deliver her sneak attack and poison, then fades back into the shadows. She really doesn't want to be in melee combat, and full attacking nets her at best one extra attack, which probably isn't worth becoming unhidden, since it would make her so much easier to hit.

A benefit of being built to make crazy in-combat Hide checks is that, when she's sneaking around outside of combat--away from that pesky -20 penalty--her Hide skill is bonkers high, and her Move Silently is very good as well. Aside from making her an excellent sneak, these skills mean that she can (and should!) pick her battles. She has no incentive to rush into combat, she's always going to be a bit fragile if caught in the open.


Level 5

Ayesha has four racial levels, so at this point she's not all that different from a standard Marrulurk, save for some odd skill and feat choices. And speaking of her racial levels, I don't think her Monstrous Humanoid HD hurt her as much as they might: Even ignoring her racial features and ability boosts, having Hide and Move Silently as class skills means she's able to get into prestige classes in a timely fashion, and Monstrous Humanoid is her only class with a good Will save. The two special attacks she gets as a Marrulurk, Nauseating Breath and Death Attack, don't scale with her class HD, so they're already fast becoming obsolete. If you want to get some use out of them, though, now's the time! Her other big racial feature, +2d6 dice of Sneak Attack, is much more useful, since she relies on it for damage output. She also starts out with an Assassin-esque ability to use poison, which she should be taking advantage of as often as possible.

With no items, her Hide modifier at this level is +21, so if she hasn't gotten her hands on a Hide-boosting item yet, and maybe even if she has, it's probably in her best interest to stay hidden rather than try to fight, particularly since her one missing HD makes her relatively more fragile at at this level (where she has 20% fewer hitpoints than a non-level-adjusted character). Also assisting in her sneakiness (because part of proper sneaking is not being snuck up on oneself) is her Discriminating Hearing racial feature, which is like a hearing-based version of Scent. On the one hand, it's a bit less powerful than Scent because it can't detect undead or constructs unless they're moving, but on the other, it is not on the list of things Darkstalker negates, which is pretty darn cool.

Level 10

Now we're talking. Getting both Darkstalker and Hide in Plain Sight means that this level is where Ayesha really starts to shine beyond "has a great Hide score." Another lovely stealth booster is Scorpion's Instincts, which she gets as a bonus feat--+2 Hide is always welcome, and bumping that up to +4 Hide/+2 Move Silently in sandy or dusty areas is even better, particularly for someone who lives in an ancient half-buried-in-sand pyramid, in which finding areas where the floor isn't dusty or sandy is likely more difficult than finding ones where it is. The other half of that feat (sharply decreasing the distance at which she can be tracked by scent) is pretty good during levels 7-9, but Darkstalker totally blows it out of the water.

And hey, you know what has a better Hide bonus than a small jackal-lady? A tiny scorpion, which Ayesha can turn into once per day. However, in order for Ayesha to use Scorpion Form for stealth purposes, her Hide-enhancing gear needs to be wearable by a scorpion, whatever that entails. Otherwise, Scorpion Form is still a great exploration utility, as a tiny scorpion can get into a lot of places that Ayesha usually can't.


Level 15

Ayesha's damage-dealing abilities flag during these levels, but that's ameliorated by the great defensive bonuses she gets from Shadowdancer. Evasion means that AoE attacks (which, since they don't need to be precisely aimed, are a pain for anyone trying to avoid damage by hiding) are much less scary. Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge hopefully won't come into play much, but they give her a significant survivability boost when things don't go according to plan and she ends up the quarry instead of the hunter--same with Defensive Roll, though I suspect that that'll see more use than either of the Uncanny Dodges. Shadow Jump is likewise most useful for getting out of sticky situations. Once Ayesha is out of her opponents' line of fire and can re-hide, they're not going to find her until she starts shooting at them again, if then. Darkvision is, unfortunately, redundant; as a monstrous humanoid, she's had it all along.

Her Shadow Companion is probably best reserved for non-combat scouting, since it's quite fragile for the level she gets it at but is even better than her scorpion form at scouting around in places Ayesha can't get to normally. If it does end up in combat...well, it's probably gonna die, but if it's able to land attacks, Ayesha should back it up with Str-damaging poisons; between the two of them, they might be able to cut down the attacker's efficacy to the point where the shadow can get away.

Finally, the one new feat Ayesha gets by this level is Able Sniper, which gives a small bonus to hit if Ayesha is exactly 30' away from her target (she doesn't want to be more than 30' away because she'd lose Sneak Attack damage), and, more importantly, gives +4 to Hide checks when attempting to re-hide after attacking, which is just when she needs it most.


Level 20

More Scorpion Heritor levels, which mostly means more Sneak Attack dice. She also finally has room to pick up Craven at 19th level, which gives her an even better damage boost. Envenom Blade's poison is lackluster for the level Ayesha gets it, but free poison is free poison, and the increasable DC means that if she wanted to put effort into improving her Wisdom, she could boost get the DC up in the dangerous range. It's probably not worth the investment for 1d4 Con/1d4 Con damage, though. The Woodland Archer feat (which I wish was titled something more fitting…) sharply increases her mobility, allowing movement while sniping. Its Pierce the Foliage maneuver is nice too, because it means that she only has to pierce an enemy’s concealment once rather than every round.

For defensive abilities, Immunity to Scorpion Venom seems mostly a flavor thing (because monstrous scorpion venom is, again, delicious), but given her environment, it's actually a pretty likely type of poison to run into. The real defensive coup here is getting Scorpion's Sense as a bonus feat, which grants a small area of tremorsense that gets bigger in sandy or dusty environments. Between this and her Discriminating Hearing, she should be very difficult to sneak up on.



Suggested Equipment

Hide Boosters: Hide is important for every sneaky character, but Ayesha is regularly gonna be making Hide checks at a -20 penalty, and while she gets a net positive bonus on those checks pretty early, assistance in this area will go a long way toward helping her survive. Straight-ahead skill boosters like Shadow armor and Hat of Anonymity are great, of course, but don't neglect things like invisibility and size reduction, particularly when she starts getting a decent UMD score at mid levels.

Weapon: Poison-enhancing enchantments--particularly Assassination, from the Cityscape Web Enhancement (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070314a), and Toxic, from Drow of the Underdark, each of which is +1--synergize well with Ayesha's modus operandi. Additionally, Splitting bows (+3, from Champions of Ruin) are as sweet for her as they are for any other archer; even if Splitting doesn’t allow Sneak Attack damage to apply more than once, that’s an extra chance to hit and free doubling of poison applied to arrows. Yes, please.

Poisons: Oh, yeah, speaking of poison! Marrulurks are described in their monster entry as carrying poison, and Ayesha, with her scorpion theme, shouldn’t be an exception. Monstrous scorpion venom is the top pick for flavor (yum!), and Sandstorm features its cool cousin crystal scorpion venom, which renders creatures helpless for hours. Level-appropriate Str-draining poisons are also a good choice, as they combo well with the shadow companion's touch attack.

Other: Ayesha benefits from the usual rogue-y gear like Dex-increasing items, sneak attack boosters, and non-AC defensive items.


Adaptation
Ayesha would benefit from LA buyoff, should a DM allow it. If you do get to buy off her +1 LA, the best thing to do with the extra level is to take a seventh level of Shadowdancer, which not only nets Ayesha Slippery Mind, but also increases her base attack bonus by one, pushing her over the threshold for a third iterative attack. The other option is to take Scorpion Heritor 8 for a ghostly scorpion tail, but that (a) only functions once a day (b) requires you to be in melee, and (c) does piddly damage compared to poisons she could be making/buying at high levels. Go for Shadowdancer 7.

If Dragon Magazine content is in play, holy crap is Concealed Ambush (from DM 339) good. Take it instead of Able Sniper—they stack, as far as I know, but this build only has room for one, and Concealed Ambush is better for what Ayesha is trying to do.




Sources

Player's Handbook: Fighter, Combat Reflexes, Point Blank Shot, Manyshot, Dodge, Mobility
Dungeon Master's Guide: Shadowdancer
Sandstorm: Marrulurk, Scorpion Heritor, Scorpion's Resolve, Scorpion's Instinct, Scorpion's Sense
Lords of Madness: Darkstalker
Races of the Wild: Woodland Archer, Able Sniper
Champions of Ruin: Craven

[Kazudo]

And from Undystopia, somewhere in Uneurope, maybe?
(name for entry given by chairman due to a lack of one provided. It seems fitting.)


32 point buy: Human:
Str: 14, Dex: 16. Con: 14. Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 8
Non Lawful Evil worshipper of Taiia who killed someone for joining the assassins and has fled or been exiled from the service of a feudal lord, commonly for disobeying orders, displaying rudeness or cowardice at a crucial juncture, or failing in a crucial task. This pretty much writes the story for you; of a sworn soldier who got bought out by a better dollar and runs into hiding. This requires fractional BAB, otherwise you can not qualify for Justiciar of Taiia or Roanin or Staggering Strike --- indeed, at level 8 you'd have an abysmal BAB of +3.


I'm a hired man for lord McLordyson, but I find myself growing weary of this life, and I've been offered a good chunk of coin to kill prisoner McPrisonerson instead of transporting him to Town. What could go wrong?

You've got 3d6 sneak attack here, same as a pure rogue. Feat selection is abysmal; flaws would let you get Two Weapon fighting in, though one of your swordsage manoeuvres can make up for that a little. But you're basically a rogue here, with the same BAB, Sneak attack, a mix of meh skills and bad feats. This is not this builds best level.



I've been running and hiding for so long --- I really should get better at hiding. These days I'm good at fighting, picking up different ways of waylaying people when they aren't expecting it from every person I meet --- including another former bondsman and a priest (at least, I think it was a priest).

At 10th level, you have +8d6 sneak attack, which is most of a rogues. Your saves are solid, and your BAB is 7, which is standard 3/4ths BAB. And now you have staggering strike; when you hit people, they have to make a fortitude save or be staggered. With the sneak attack damage (avg: 28) + weapon + whatever, you're looking at regularly requiring a fortitude save around 40ish versus stagger on hits.



Tumbleweed passes by. Then a man suddenly appears in front of you, and then vanishes again. He appears behind you. “Now I'm invisible.”

You've got hide in plain sight, full ranks of hide + move silently, and the ever important Darkstalker feat. Plus your sneak attack is up to a full +10d6, and you've got your 3rd attack (if you can get the gloves of the balanced hand, that provides TWF, and gives you a 4th attack; flashing sun gives you a 5th). Defensively, saves are huge, with evasion and uncanny dodge and shadow jumps.



You innately get TWF now, but man does it come on late. But with gloves of the Balanced hand, you're looking at 5 attacks with the full +10d6 sneak attack, staggering strike, and some decent maxed out skills. You're basically a rogue --- without ever taking a single level of the class.

Seriously, rogue 20 has +1 BAB, -13 saves, trap sense, +4 special abilities (if they pick Defensive Roll, Slippery Mind, and Improved Invasion, it's +1 special ability) and more/better skills, versus this guy, who has about the same, plus some shadows, shadow jumps, hide in plain sight, and a bit of casting and manoeuvres.

Obviously the messy part is the first 10 levels, which involve 8 classes, but hey, look, I recreated a rogue!



Manoeuvre items can add some much useful versatility; with an IL of 10, you can get 5th level moves if you want.

You want some of the TWFing gear, using a shadowhand weapon, which is probably short swords. So enchant them up in your favourite way. The http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=279079 Two Weapon Fighting Offhandbook has some great suggestions. Also the standard +1 eager warning wand chamber nerveskitter wand staff to carry around and win initiative then drop as a free action.

I particularly like multicharging a stack of chronocharms of the horizonwalker, the shadow cloak , Deathstrike bracers (crit/sneak attack whatever you want for 5000gp), bracers of lightning (11000gp for +1d6 lightning damage), Gloves of Ghost Fighting (4000gp for ghost touch), Gloves of the Balanced Hand (pick up Improved TWFing), Ring of Adamanite Touch (6000gp), the ever cheesy belt of battle.

Standard arrays of stat boosters on melee stats + defensive items, are of course, always useful. You're short on special ways to deal with casters, aside from sneaking up on them and stabbing a dagger in their back, but staggering strike reduces them to a single move or standard action --- and that standard action is still plenty to nuke you with.






Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
Spellthief 1 (Complete Adventurer pg 13) (d6)
+0.75
+0
+0
+2
Bluff +4, Gather information +3, hide +4, move silently +4, search +4, spellcraft +4, spot +4, use magic device +4, speak language 2skillpoints, tumble +1
Dodge, Mobility
Sneak attack +1d6, steal spell (0 or 1st), trapfinding, proficiencies


2nd
Thug, Sneak Attack variant (d10) 1 (Unearthed Arcana)
+1.75
+2
+0
+2
Bluff +5, Disguise +1.5, Gather information +3, hide +4, intimidate +3, move silently +4, search +4, spellcraft +4, spot +4, use magic device +4, speak language 2skillpoints, tumble +1
No Feat
Simple, Martial, Light armor proficiencies, +2d6 sneak attack


3rd
Thug 2
+2.75
+3
+0
+2
Bluff +6, Disguise +4, Gather information +3, hide +4.5, intimidate +3, move silently +4, search +4, spellcraft +4, spot +4, use magic device +4, speak language 2skillpoints, tumble +1
Combat Reflexes
No New Class Abilities


4th
Thug 3
+2.75
+3
+1
+3
Bluff +7, Disguise +4, Gather information +3, hide +7, intimidate +3, move silently +4, search +4, spellcraft +4, spot +4, use magic device +4, speak language 2skillpoints, tumble +1, slight of hands +1
No Feat
Sneak Attack +3d6


5th
Swordsage 1 (d8)
+3.5
+3
+3
+5
Bluff +8, Disguise +4, Gather information +3, hide +8, intimidate +3, move silently +8, search +4, sense motive +3, spellcraft +4, spot +4, use magic device +4, speak language 2skillpoints, tumble +1, slight of hands +1,
Feats
Quick to Act +1, Discipline Focus (Weapon Focus), 6/4 manouvers +1 stance, IL4


6th
Assassin 1 (d6)
+4.25
+3
+5
+5
Bluff +8, Disguise +4, Gather information +3, hide +8, intimidate +3, move silently +8, search +8, sense motive +4, spellcraft +4, spot +6, use magic device +4, speak language 2skillpoints, tumble +1, slight of hands +1
Persuasive
Sneak attack +4d6, death attack, poison use, spells --- 1 per day, 2 known, both divinations: Critical Strike and Vigilent Slumber


7th
Shadow Thief of Amn, pgtf pg 74, d6
+5
+3
+7
+5
Bluff +8, Disguise +4, Gather information +3, hide +8, intimidate +3, move silently +8, perform (dance) +3.5, search +8, sense motive +4, spellcraft +4, spot +8, use magic device +4, speak language 2skillpoints, tumble +1, slight of hands +1 ,
No Feat
Doublespeak, Sneak Attack +5d6


8th
Unseen Seer 1, complete mage 81, d4
+5.5
+3
+7
+7
Bluff +8, Disguise +4, Gather information +3, hide +8, intimidate +3, knowledge religion +6, move silently +8, perform (dance) +5, search +8, sense motive +4, spellcraft +4, spot +8, use magic device +4, speak language 2skillpoints, tumble +1, slight of hands +1 ,
No Feat
Sneak Attack +6d6, +1 assassin spell known (whatever you want)


9th
Justiciar of Taiia, Deities and Demigods pg 205
+6.25/+1.25
+3
+9
+9
Bluff +9, Disguise +4, Gather information +3, hide +12, intimidate +3, knowledge religion +6, move silently +12, perform (dance) +5, search +8, sense motive +4, spellcraft +4, spot +8, use magic device +4, speak language 2skillpoints, tumble +1, slight of hands +1
Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword, Staggering Strike
1st level spell slot if bonus wisdom in the cleric list, as cleric, etc. +7d6 sneak attack


10th
Roanin 1 (d10)
+7.25/2.25
+5
+9
+9
Bluff +13, Disguise +5, Gather information +3, hide +12, intimidate +3, knowledge religion +6, move silently +12, perform (dance) +5, search +8, sense motive +4, spellcraft +4, spot +8, use magic device +4, speak language 2skillpoints, tumble +1, slight of hands +1
No Feat
Imfamy, Sneak Attack +8d6


11th
Shadowdancer 1
+8/+3
+5
+11
+9
Bluff +14, move silently +14, hide +14, Disguise +9, Gather information +3, intimidate +3, knowledge religion +6, perform (dance) +5, search +8, sense motive +4, spellcraft +4, spot +8, use magic device +4, speak language 2skillpoints, tumble +1, slight of hands +1
No Feat
Hide in Plain Sight


12th
Shadowdancer 2
+8.75/+3.75
+5
+13
+9
Bluff +15, move silently +15, hide +15, Disguise +15, Gather information +3, intimidate +3, knowledge religion +6, perform (dance) +5, search +8, sense motive +4, spellcraft +4, spot +8, use magic device +4, speak language 2skillpoints, tumble +1, slight of hands +1
Darkstalker
Evasion, darkvision, uncanny dodge


13th
Shadowdancer 3
+9.5/+4.5
+6
+13
+10
Bluff +16, move silently +16, hide +16, Disguise +16, search +13 Gather information +3, intimidate +3, knowledge religion +6, perform (dance) +5, sense motive +4, spellcraft +4, spot +8, use magic device +4, speak language 2skillpoints, tumble +1, slight of hands +1
No Feat
Shadow illusion, summon shadow


14th
Shadowdancer 4
+10.25/+5.25
+6
+14
+10
Bluff +17, move silently +17, hide +17, Disguise +17, search +17, spot +9, Gather information +3, intimidate +3, knowledge religion +6, perform (dance) +5, sense motive +4, spellcraft +4, use magic device +4, speak language 2skillpoints, tumble +1, slight of hands +1
No Feat
Shadow jump 20 ft.


15th
Shadowdancer 5
+11/+6/+1
+6
+14
+10
Bluff +18, move silently +18, hide +18, Disguise +18, search +18, spot +13, Gather information +3, intimidate +3, knowledge religion +6, perform (dance) +5, sense motive +4, spellcraft +4, use magic device +4, speak language 2skillpoints, tumble +1, slight of hands +1
Martial Stance: Assassin's Stance (10d6 sneak attack)
Defensive roll, improved uncanny dodge


16th
Shadowdancer 6
+11.75/+6.75/+1.75
+7
+15
+11
Bluff +19, move silently +19, hide +19, Disguise +19, search +19, spot +17, Gather information +3, intimidate +3, knowledge religion +6, perform (dance) +5, sense motive +4, spellcraft +4, use magic device +4, speak language 2skillpoints, tumble +1, slight of hands +1
No Feat
Shadow jump 40 ft., summon shadow


17th
Shadowdancer 7
+12.5/+7.5/+2.5
+7
+15
+11
Bluff +20, move silently +20, hide +20, Disguise +20, search +20, spot +20, sense motive +5 Gather information +3, intimidate +3, knowledge religion +6, perform (dance) +5, spellcraft +4, use magic device +4, speak language 2skillpoints, tumble +1, slight of hands +1
No Feat
Slippery mind


18th
Shadowdancer 8
+13.25/+8.25/+3.25
+7
+16
+11
Bluff +21, move silently +21, hide +21, Disguise +21, search +21, spot +21, sense motive +8 Gather information +3, intimidate +3, knowledge religion +6, perform (dance) +5, spellcraft +4, use magic device +4, speak language 2skillpoints, tumble +1, slight of hands +1
Two Weapon Fighting
Shadow jump 80 ft.


19th
Shadowdancer 9
+14/+9/+4
+8
+16
+12
Bluff +22, move silently +22, hide +22, Disguise +22, search +22, spot +22, sense motive +11 Gather information +3, intimidate +3, knowledge religion +6, perform (dance) +5, spellcraft +4, use magic device +4, speak language 2skillpoints, tumble +1, slight of hands +1
No Feat
Summon shadow


20th
Shadowdancer 10
+14/+9/+4
+8
+17
+12
Bluff +23, move silently +23, hide +23, Disguise +23, search +23, spot +23, sense motive +14 Gather information +3, intimidate +3, knowledge religion +6, perform (dance) +5, spellcraft +4, use magic device +4, speak language 2skillpoints, tumble +1, slight of hands +1
No Feat
Shadow jump 160 ft., improved evasion



Spells: 1st level assassin spell + bonuses, with 3 known (Critical Strike, Vigilant Slumber, and your choice). Cleric casting with 0 1st level cleric spots + bonuses for high wisdom --- no spontaneous casting or domain, but otherwise cleric casting.
Manoeuvres known: 6, IL 10: Shadow Jaunt, Rabid Wolf Strike, Fire Riposte, Flashing Sun, Cloak of Deception, Distracting Ember, 4 Readied (usually Distracting Ember, Flashing Sun, Cloak of Deception and Rabid Wolf Strike at lower levels, Shadow Jaunt at higher)
Stances Known: Assassin's Stance, Island of Blades

[Kazudo]

She'll rogue you. With the power of HER SOUL!



Kelia the Souldancer
Human Cobra Strike Monk2/Thug Sneak Attack Fighter1/Incarnate1-4/Shadowdancer1/Incarnate5-16
Lawful Neutral

Starting stats:
Str 15
Dex 15
Con 16
Int 14
Wis 8
Cha 8
LevelClassBase Attack BonusFort SaveRef SaveWill SaveSkillsFeatsSoulmelds/
Essentia/
Chakra BindsBase Essentia CapacityClass Features



1st Cobra Strike Monk1 +0+2+2+2 Balance(4)
Hide(4)
Move Silently(4)
Perform(Dance)(4)
Tumble(4)
Jump(4)
Climb(4) Combat Reflexes (1st),
Able Learner(Human),
Dodge(Monk Bonus),
Improved Unarmed Strike 0/0/01 Flurry of Blows -2/2
Unarmed Strike
+Wis to AC while unarmored
Unarmed Damage +1d6
+2 to Escape Artist



2ndMonk2+1+3+3+3 Balance(5)
Hide(5)
Move Silently(5)
Perform(Dance)(5)
Tumble(5)
Jump(5)
Climb(5) Mobility(Monk Bonus) 0/0/01 Evasion


3rd Thug Sneak Attack Fighter1 +2+5+3+3 Hide(7)
Move Silently(7)
Tumble(7)
Spot(2)
Listen(2) Craven
Simple Weapon Prof.
Martial Weapon Prof.
Light Armor Prof. 0/0/0 1 +1d6 Sneak Atta


4th Incarnate1+2+7+3+5 Hide(7)
Move Silently(7)
Tumble(7)
Spot(2)
Listen(2) Medium Armor Prof.
Shield Prof. 2/1/0 1 Aura
Detect Opposition
+1 Dex


5th Incarnate2 +3+8+3+6 Hide(8)
Move Silently(8)
Tumble(8)
Spot(3)
Listen(3)- 3/2/1 1 Chakra Bind(Crown)


6th Incarnate3 +3+8+4+6 Hide(9)
Move Silently(9)
Tumble(9)
Spot(4)
Listen(4) Darkstalker 3/3/1 2 (+1 Soulmelds) Exp. Soulmeld Capacity +1
Incarnum Radiance 1/day


7thIncarnate4 +4+9+4+7 Hide(10)
Move Silently(10)
Tumble(10)
Spot(5)
Listen(5) - 4/4/1 2 (+1 Soulmelds) Chakra Binds (feet, hands)


8th Shadowdancer1 +4+9+6+7 Hide(11)
Move Silently(11)
Tumble(11)
Spot(6)
Listen(6)
UMD(x4, 5) - 4/4/1 2 (+1 Soulmelds) Hide in Plain Sight
+1 Str


9th Incarnate5 +4+9+6+7 Hide(12)
Move Silently(12)
Tumble(12)
Spot(7)
Listen(7) Exp. Soulmeld Capacity
(Dissolving Spittle) 4/5/1 2 (+1 Soulmelds)
(+1 Diss. Spittle) Rapid Meldshaping 1/day


10th Incarnate6 +5+10+7+8 Hide(13)
Move Silently(13)
Spot(8)
Listen(8)
UMD(6) - 4/6/2 2 (+1 Soulmelds)
(+1 Diss. Spittle -


11th 11th Incarnate7 +5+10+7+8 Hide(14)
Move Silently(14)
Spot(9)
Listen(9)
UMD(7) - 5/7/2 3 (+1 Soulmelds)
(+1 Diss. Spittle) Share Incarnum Radiance


12th Incarnate8 +6+11+7+9 Hide(15)
Move Silently(15)
Spot(x2, 11)
Listen(10) Indigo Strike 5/9/2 3 (+1 Soulmelds)
(+1 Diss. Spittle) Incarnum Radiance 2/day
+1 Con


13th Incarnate9 +6+11+8+9 Hide(16)
Move Silently(16)
Spot(12)
Listen(11)
UMD(8) - 5/10/2 3 (+1 Soulmelds)
(+1 Diss. Spittle) Chakra Binds (arms, brow, shoulders)


14th Incarnate10 +7+12+8+10 Hide(17)
Move Silently(17)
Spot(13)
Listen(x2, 13) - 6/11/3 3 (+1 Soulmelds)
(+1 Diss. Spittle) -


15th Incarnate11 +7+12+8+10 Hide(18)
Move Silently(18)
Spot(14), Listen(14)
UMD(9) Bonus Essentia 6/14/3 3 (+1 Soulmelds)
(+1 Diss. Spittle) Rapid Meldshaping 2/day


16th Incarnate12+8+13+9+11 Hide(19)
Move Silently(19)
Spot(x2, 16)
Listen(15) - 6/15/3 4 (+1 Soulmelds)
(+1 Diss. Spittle) +1 Con


17th Incarnate13 +8+13+9+11 11 Hide(20)
Move Silently(20)
Spot(17)
Listen(16)
UMD(10) - 7/16/3 4 (+1 Soulmelds)
(+1 Diss. Spittle) Incarnum Radiance 3/day


18th Incarnate14 +9+14+9+12 Hide(21)
Move Silently(21)
Spot(18)
Listen(x2, 18) Feat: Left open (season to taste) 7/17/4 4 (+1 Soulmelds)
(+1 Diss. Spittle) Chakra Binds (throat, waist)


19th Incarnate15 +9+14+10+12 Hide(22)
Move Silently(22)
Spot(19)
Listen(19)
UMD(11) - 7/19/4 4 (+2 Soulmelds)
(+1 Diss. Spittle) Exp. Soulmeld Capacity +2


20th Incarnate16+10+15+10+13 Hide(23)
Move Silently(23)
Spot(20)
Listen(x2, 21) - 8/21/4 4 (+2 Soulmelds)
(+1 Diss. Spittle) Chakra Binds (Heart)
+1 (Ability: left open)



At 5th level, the build is just starting out. Kelia started her career as a Monk of the Cobra Strike school. Growing disaffected by the school’s “ivory tower” qualities, she set off on her own to test her strength in the fighting ring. Her dancing skills gained her a few more fans than usual, and she met with moderate success. From her experiences there, particularly during tag-team matches, she learned to take advantage of gaps in her opponent’s defenses. All that changed during one fight where she was knocked senseless by an Azurin. After the fight was over, she implored him to teach her the secrets of Incarnum. The Incarnate agreed, and she began her inner quest anew. At this point in the build, Kelia is fairly resilient. She survives combat by trickery and focuses on outlasting the competition (thanks to her high saves and relatively high HP). She’s started to use a few Incarnum tricks, but hasn’t mastered them.

By 10th level, Kelia has progressed in opening her chakras, and has developed her own style that meshes her previous experiences with her newly-awakened Incarnum abilities. She has gained a greater awareness of the shadows around her, using them to her advantage. She is the calm center of darkness, striking out at the chaos around her.

By 15th level, Kelia is firmly on the path to unlocking her chakras. (This is most likely the sweet spot). She has balanced defenses. Her soulmelds (and her UMD check) allow her to fill a variety of different roles, depending on the need.

By 20th level, Kelia has finally opened her Heart Chakra, and attained a self-mastery that she could have only dreamed of in her early career.

Key soulmelds: Dissolving Spittle (Bound to Throat chakra), Fellmist Robe (Soul), Mage’s Spectacles(Brow). Other suggested soulmelds: Strongheart Vest (heart), Enigma Helm (crown), Acrobat Boots (feet), Theft Gloves (hands), Bluesteel Bracers (arms), Pauldrons of Health (shoulders), Vitality Belt (waist)

The general idea is to pump up Dissolving Spittle to as far as it will go. At 20, you’ll have a base capacity of 4, plus 2 for expanded soulmeld capacity from Incarnate, plus 1 for a feat, giving you 7. 7 essentia invested means 7d6+1d6+20 acid damage two rounds in a row (more if you invest Indigo Strike). With Hide in Plain Sight (and also, potentially, with Fellmist Robe), maxed ranks in Hide and Move Silently, and Darkstalker, you’ll be able to snipe from concealment regularly. This obviously isn’t the most optimized build, but it offers an unusual and flavorful take on Sneak Attack with a dash of Shadowdancer.

I’ve left the feat at 18th level open, as well as the ability bonus at 20th. By this point you should probably have at least one odd score from Tomes or Manuals; put the bonus there.

[Kazudo]

Ha' you seen a six-fingered man around here? Six fingeres on his lefta hand?




Blaine Night the Six-Fingered
http://i404.photobucket.com/albums/pp124/SirOshi/shadowdancer_zpsca73931d.png

Build Stub: Ranger2/Binder3/Fighter2/Shadowdancer 9/Telflammar Shadowlord 4
Attributes(level 1): Str 16; Dex 14; Con 14; Int 14; Wis 12; Cha 08
Attributes (level 20): Str 30; Dex 20; Con 20; Int 14; Wis 12; Cha 08


LevelClassBase Attack BonusFort SaveRef SaveWill SaveSkillsFeatsClass Features


1st Ranger 1 +1 +2 +2 +0 Perform(Dance) 2, Iajutsu Focus 2, Hide 4, Move Silently 4, Spot 4, Listen 4, Search 4, Survival 4, Disable Device 4, Knowledge(Dungeoneering) 4 Able Learner, Dodge Favored Enemy+2, Wild Empathy, Trapfinding


2nd Ranger 2 +2 +3 +3 +0 Hide 5(+1), Move Silently 5(+1), Spot 5(+1), Listen 5(+1), Search 5(+1), Survival 5(+1), Disable Device 5(+1), Intimidate 2(+2) Two-Weapon Fighting(Combat Style) Combat Style


3rdBinder 1 +2 +5 +3 +2 Intimidate 4(+2), Move Silently 6(+1), Hide 6(+1), Search 6(+1) Improved Binding Soul Binding(1 Vestige) [2nd level Vestiges]


4thBinder 2 +3 +6 +3 +3 Iajutsu Focus 3(+1), Perform(Dance) 3(+1), Move Silently 7(+1), Hide 7(+1), Search 7(+1) - Pact Augmentation (1 Ability), Suppress Sign


5thBinder 3 +4 +6 +4 +3 Iajutsu Focus 4(+1), Perform(Dance) 4(+1), Move Silently 8(+1), Hide 8(+1), Disable Device 6(+1) - - [Gain access to 3rd level Vestiges]


6thFighter 1 +5 +8 +4 +3 Move Silently 9(+1), Hide 9(+1), Disable Device 8(+2), Search 8(+1)Blind Fight(Fighter Bonus), Mobility Bonus Feat


7thFighter 2 +6 +9 +4 +3 Move Silently 10(+1), Hide 10(+1), Iajutsu Focus 5(+1), Perform(Dance) 5(+1), Search 9(+1)Combat Reflexes(Fighter Bonus)Bonus Feat


8thShadowdancer 1 +6 +9 +6 +3 Move Silently 11(+1), Hide 11(+1), Disable Device 11(+3), Search 11(+2), Spot 7(+2)-Hide in Plain Sight


9thShadowdancer 2 +7 +9 +7 +3 Move Silently 12(+1), Hide 12(+1), Disable Device 12(+1), Search 12(+1), Iajutsu Focus 6(+1), Spot 11(+4)Spring Attack Evasion, Darkvision, Uncanny Dodge


10thShadowdancer 3 +8 +10 +7 +4 Move Silently 13(+1), Hide 13(+1), Disable Device 13(+1), Search 13(+1), Spot 13(+2), Listen 8(+3)-Shadow Illusion, Summon Shadow


11thShadowdancer 4 +9 +10 +8 +4 Iajutsu Focus 7(+1), Move Silently 14(+1), Hide 14(+1), Disable Device 14(+1), Search 14(+1), Spot 14(+1), Listen 11(+3)-Shadow Jump 20ft


12thTelflammar Shadowlord 1 +9 +10 +10 +4 Move Silently 15(+1), Hide 15(+1), Disable Device 15(+1), Search 15(+1), Spot 15(+1), Listen 13(+2)EWP(Gnomish Quickrazor)Shadowsight, Shadow Jump


13thTelflammar Shadowlord 2 +10 +10 +11 +4 Iajutsu Focus 8(+1), Move Silently 16(+1), Hide 16(+1), Disable Device 16(+1), Search 16(+1), Spot 16(+1), Listen 14(+1)-Shadow Blur


14thTelflammar Shadowlord 3 +11 +11 +11 +5 Move Silently 17(+1), Hide 17(+1), Disable Device 17(+1), Search 17(+1), Spot 17(+1), Listen 16(+2)-Shadow Walk


15thTelflammar Shadowlord 4 +12 +11 +12 +5 Iajutsu Focus 9(+1), Move Silently 18(+1), Hide 18(+1), Disable Device 18(+1), Search 18(+1), Spot 18(+1), Listen 17(+1)Improved Two-Weapon Fighting Shadow Pounce


16thShadowdancer 5 +12 +11 +12 +5 Move Silently 19(+1), Hide 19(+1), Disable Device 19(+1), Search 19(+1), Spot 19(+1), Listen 19(+2), Survival 7(+2) -Defensive Roll, Improved Uncanny Dodge


17thShadowdancer 6 +13 +12 +13 +6 Iajutsu Focus 10(+1), Move Silently 20(+1), Hide 20(+1), Disable Device 20(+1), Search 20(+1), Spot 20(+1), Listen 20(+1), Survival 9(+2)-Shadow Jump 200ft, Summon Shadow


18thShadowdancer 7 +14 +12 +13 +6 Move Silently 21(+1), Hide 21(+1), Disable Device 21(+1), Search 21(+1), Spot 21(+1), Listen 21(+1), Survival 12(+3) Craven Slippery Mind


19thShadowdancer 8 +15 +12 +14 +6 Iajutsu Focus 11(+1), Move Silently 22(+1), Hide 22(+1), Disable Device 22(+1), Search 22(+1), Spot 22(+1), Listen 22(+1), Survival 14(+2)-Shadow Jump 400ft


20thShadowdancer 9 +15 +13 +14 +7 Move Silently 23(+1), Hide 23(+1), Disable Device 23(+1), Search 23(+1), Spot 23(+1), Listen 23(+1), Survival 17(+3) -Summon Shadow
Final Skill Ranks at Level 20: Disable Device 23, Hide 23, Iajutsu Focus 11, Intimidate 4, Knowledge(Dungeoneering) 4, Listen 23, Move Silently 23, Perform (Dance) 5, Search 23, Spot 23 and Survival 17

This character is not a caster, but he does get some spells picked up via Telflammar Shadowlord, and some of these are at least situationally useful, so it's worth nothing. The spells per day however are very low, as shown on the table below.

Spells per day/Spells Known
Level0th1st2nd3rd4th5th6th7th8th9th


1st----------


2nd----------


3rd----------


4th----------


5th----------


6th----------


7th----------


8th----------


9th----------


10th----------


11th----------


12th1---------


13th2---------


14th21--------


15th32--------


16th32--------


17th32--------


18th32--------


19th32--------


20th32--------





Okay, I'm really bad at creative writing, so I'm going to spare you my sorry attempt at it and describe the fluff in a straightforward way.

Blaine starts out as a standard skilled warrior. He comes from the Thesk region of Faerun and his story is much like any typical adventurer. Early in his career, he discovers the power of pact binding, and dives headfirst into those, learning to bully vestiges more powerful than himself into granting him special powers.

Eventually he binds Andromalius, who is different. The two connect and actually become friendly with each other. Andromalius convinces Blaine that continuing to pursue this path could end very badly for him, and gets him to abandon developing his pact-binding ability, and sticking with him. With Andromalius continuing to provide his power in exchange for getting the ability to continue a facsimile of life through Blaine.

The Six-Fingered Monicker actually comes from the Andromalius Vestige, which has the "sign" of each limb gaining an extra digit. So as long as bound to Andromalius, unless he attempts to hide the suppress the sign, he has 6 fingers and 6 toes.

Blaine then somehow or another ends up drawn to the Shadows, where he focuses the rest of his career, steadily gaining an increased mastery over shadow in an instinctual, almost visceral way (as opposed to the more learned way a Shadowcraft Mage, or Shadowcaster might).

By mid-high levels, Blaine can melt into any shadow and hide himself perfectly, jump through shadows so often it may as well be at will, travel through the plane of shadow itself to cross large distances nearly instantly, see through any magical or non-magical darkness, and gain miss chance while in the shadows.



The build does seem a bit erratic at low levels. I needed to hit the Sneak Attack requirement early for Telflammar Shadowlord, and get Hide/Move Silently as Class Skills, but also needed feats to get into both classes on time, so couldn't go the easy route of the Sneak Attack Fighter, or waste feats/skills qualifying for a third prestige class to pick up some sneak attack. The result is what you see above.

The Ranger ACF is only in there for the extra out of combat utility, I find Trap finding more useful than Tracking in most situations. It can easily be eliminated to reduce source bloat if desired. This then results in maxing Survival instead of Search/Disable Device early on, and lets you pick two other skills to have high rated (one max one at 15 ranks). I'd suggest Bluff/Disguise.

Binder qualifies us for Sneak Attac by virtue of the Andromalius Vestige, which the build has by 5th level. At the start of each day, the one vestige the character can bind goes to binding Andromalius. This vestige grants Blaine 2d6 of sneak attack, plus some other fun utilities that remain useful through to level 20.

Once Shadowdancer comes online, it's much more straightforward. The build goes Shadowdancer until Shadow Jump comes online, then hops over to Telflammar Shadowlord to get Shadowpounce + other goodies.



One fun bit of synergy I picked up on that as far as I know hasn't been used before now is that Telflammar Shadowlord and Shadowdancer both get "Shadow Jump". The ability has the exact same name, and works the exact same way, so they are in effect the same ability. This is important because it explains the very high Shadow Jump numbers in my Table above. Shadowlord grants 20ft of Shadow Jump capability per level. So in 4 levels you go from 20ft of Shadow Jump (from Shadowdancer) to 100ft of Shadow Jump (Shadowdancer = Shadowlord).

Now the interesting part. Shadowdancer doesn't just get a set amount of extra jump as it levels up. Referencing the text, it says "Every two levels higher than 4th, the distance a shadowdancer can jump each day doubles". The table provides the 40/80/160ft on the assumption that the Shadowdancer is your only source of Shadow Jumping. But Telflammar Shadowlord provides Shadow Jump as well, by RAW this will get doubled as well. So at level 6 Shadow Dancer, you go up to 200ft of Shadow Jump. At level 8 Shadow Dancer, you go up to 400ft. If there were some way to get the 10th level (there is a way: Discussed in UA variants below), you get all the way up to 800ft.

This synergy is something I find really cool as it makes the Shadowdancer's contribution to the overall build much more meaningful than I anticipated, instead of giving 8 extra 10ft jumps to the Shadowlord, it actually provides 32 of them. This is a massive increase in utility and longevity. It still has a long way to go to match some of the stronger classes out there, but for a core base class, this is a pretty neat trick. And it's not like that's the only thing Shadowdancer is giving you.



Trapfinding-Yeah, I used the Trapmaster variant from Dungeonscape on the Ranger because I like Trapfinding more than I do Tracking (Though if you can get an extra feat somehow, Blaine can totally do both if desired, he has the survival for it).

Hide in Plain Sight-This is a Shadowdancer build, of course it has the best ability from the Shadowdancer class. Step into a shadow, and with his high hide/move silently modifiers, nobody's going to see Blaine. Step into a shadow and shadow jump to another nearby one, and nobody who saw you enter will even know where to look for him. Blaine straight up amazing at sneaking/scouting, and have excellent perception skills to back it up.

Shadow Pounce-The effective capstone of the build. It comes online late, but it is amazing. You have a very effective baseline teleportation method, and with Magic Items and the Variants listed below, you can easily get 2-3 full attacks per round with this, and have so many effective teleportations that you can do it basically at will.

Shadow Walk-Because sometimes you need to travel more than a few feet. This ability puts you ahead of just about everyone but the Tier 1s when that becomes necessary.

Vestige Binding-You are always binding Andromalius. It's a fact of life. You need that sneak attack to qualify for Shadowlord, and you can only go up to 3rd level vestiges anyway. On the bright side, Andromalius is great. In addition to the Sneak Attack, it provides you with Locate Item and See Invisibility at will, and a few minor skill bonuses. See Invisibility at will in particular is great for scouting, but there are a number of missions where Locate Item at will can provide very handy.

Sneak Attack-One of the ingredients of the challenge, Blaine only has the 2d6 from Andromalius. However, with equipment this gets boosted to 5d6 easily, and 7d6 depending on a specific ruling.

Spellcasting-Blaine gets a few spells per day from Telflammar Shadowlord, which includes Invisibility, Knock, and Levitate at level 1, and Haste, Displacement, Improved Invisibility, Nondetection, and Air Walk at level 2. You don't get a lot of these, but that's a nice selection of spells given that you get them basically for free since you were taking the class anyway.

Shadow-As a 9th level Shadowdancer, Blaine has a 9 hit die shadow companion. It serves a useful role in helping to scout, and can be used to incapacitate certain enemy types without risk (read: anything that can't hurt an incorporeal creature). Against anything that can hurt an incorporeal, the Shadow won't be risked because of annoying exp penalties.

Defenses-Okay, not a class feature, but several class features are worth noting here, I want to talk about them all at once. Blaine has an average con, and mostly d8 or higher hit dice, so can take a hit, and has Defensive Roll and Evasion to augment that. He gets Uncanny Dodge and Imp Uncanny Dodge, so is unflankable except by high level (13+) rogues. His saves are above average (Fort and Ref are both slightly above the standard "Good" and even Will is slightly above "Bad") and he gets Slippery Mind to help with failed will saves. On top of it all, anytime he's in Shadow he gets a 20% miss chance to make up for his relatively low AC. Not the tankiest character around, but durable enough to hold his own and earn his keep on any team.


Levels 1-2: At the lowest levels Blaine is a rogue without sneak attack. On the bright side, he has a solid strength, and his first two levels are full BAB. Blaine is as good at hitting and killing low level stuff as any typical fighter, and acts as a solid scout and trap monkey for good measure. You pull your weight in the party as a secondary combatant with utility. At 2nd level he get two weapon fighting, and utilize some armor spikes for that purpose, giving him a little more offensive punch when someone is standing right next to him for a full attack.

Levels 3-4At level 3 Blaine picks up pact magic and is capable of binding 2nd level vestiges. At this point he has no particular reason to stick with just one so can provide a lot of side utility specialized to the current adventure in addition to his scouting and trap finding shtick. Level 4 gives access to Pact Augmentation, so he can choose at the start of the day if he wants +1 insight bonus to Hit, AC or Saves (or a few other things, but those are the important ones). It's just a +1, but still nice to have, and helps him keep up in combat during the slower levels.

Levels 5-7: At level 5 Blaine meets his new best friend, Andromalius. Since Blaine has sworn off using other vestiges, he's now a little more specialized than he was at earlier levels. However, he is now sneak attacking as part of his general attack routine, and at level 7 you hit BAB+6 and get your extra attack. He isn't the heaviest hitter around, but the damage output is respectable, and Blaine has plenty of out of combat utility to earn his keep.

Levels 8-14: Blaine is now one with the Shadows. Throughout these levels, his basic fighting style is mostly unchanged, but he's picking up a lot of the fun out of combat abilities through here. Hide in Plain Sight, Shadowsight, Spellcasting, and Shadow Walk being the most noteworthy of these. At level 12, he picks up his Gnomish Quickrazors, letting your damage keep up here by adding on a few d6 of iajutsu damage to every attack (how much depends on level/gear).

Levels 15+: At level 15 you're finally at the finish line. Blaine picks up the awesome Shadow Pounce. He is now hopping around getting between 1 and 3 full attacks per round (depending on magic item loadout). General strategy is to set up an enemy to be flatfooted, and teleport around them as many times as possible in one round, getting up to 18 attacks each with 7d6-16d6 bonus damage applied(depending on gear/level). At level 18 he nabs Craven, giving another extra major boost to your sneak attack damage.

At these levels you are also getting your Shadow Jump distance multipliers, so Shadow Jump quickly becomes a resource you don't need to conserve so much, allowing you to make short hops out of combat as needed/desired.




The stat spread for level 20 given at the start assumes a +3 tome for primary stat, and 3 +6 Enhancement Boosters, which costs 190,500gp; roughly 1/4th of your available money at level 20. So there's lots of room to play with. Noteworthy items that really help out here include:


+X Item of Iajutsu Focus. Ideally you want +30 by level 20. A +5 to this skill is directly equal to 1d6 damage per attack. This item is up to GM discretion, but immensely helpful (worth +6d6 damage to the character for 90k gp)
Anklets of Translocation. Less than 2000gp, lets you activate your shadow pounce twice a day as a swift action. Blaine may start carrying around a bunch of these and switching out as needed.
Boots of Swift Passage. 5000gp, lets you activate shadow pounce as a move action 5/day. Amazing at levels before Shadow Stride comes online (ie most of them), and even after that will find a lot of use. 8000gp lets you have this and the Anklets on the same item if custom items are being used.
A Scholar/Master Shadow Hand Crown [adapted White Raven Crown from ToB], with Shadow Stride/Blink as the maneuver. This is MUCH more expensive than the Anklets, and you really only want this if you can't carry around multiple anklets and switch them out between encounters. Still move/swift action full attacks are always awesome.
Gloves of the Balanced Hand. This build is really feat starved, but likes extra attacks. This is a way to get ITWF on the cheap.
Eternal Wands. Telflammar Shadowlord gives you the ability to cast a small number of arcane spells, which gives you the ability to activate any Eternal Wand in the game, even if the spell isn't on your spell list. This build is severely feat starved, and a couple of Eternal Wands of Heroics helps this immensely, plus gives even more versatility. There are plenty of other low level spells that are similarly very helpful to have available a couple times a day that you may be interested in picking up as well (swift/immediate action spells in a wand chamber are generally very useful).


No items are required for the build, but most of those listed above will provide an inordinate boost to the build (particularly the Iajutsu item and the alt-action teleport items). Aside from those, just about any items you want for a melee character will be useful. (For example Flight would be useful to have, though less necessary than on a typical melee since you can teleport and could cast Air Walk twice a day if desired). You can probably afford to go with minimal armor/weapon enhancements (get a GMW from a party member, rely on precision damage dice rather than weapon enhancements) and focus most of your money into immunities or miss chances for defense.


Special Note: I'm aware some judges are looking for a minimum 5d6 sneak attack damage. Frankly, getting that much with maximal levels of Shadowdancer is nearly impossible, so I have the minimum +2d6 in my build, with that being offset by Iajutsu and Craven. However there are items that boost Sneak Attack that this character can take advantage of to meet this requirement if needed. I would not normally list these as high priority, but for the purpose of the Junkyard War, you can easily afford all of these plus necessary equipment, with room to spare for covering generic necessities.

Deadly Precision Weapon Enhancement. Adds +1d6 sneak attack damage to weapon for a +1 enhancement.
Bracers of the Hunter. Adds +1d6 sneak attack damage
Rogue's Vest. Adds +1d6 sneak attack damage
Novice Shadow Hand Maneuver item of Assassin's Stance. Adds +2d6 sneak attack damage


With all of these, the character jumps from +2d6 to +7d6 sneak attack, more than enough to meet the minimums expected. They're all relatively cheap items and well within what he has available by mid levels.

Note: The last one is questionable, but as far as I can tell legal by RAW (Stances being described as a special type of maneuver, not as something totally different), but if it is not considered legal the other items are all standard with no slot overlaps, and enough to get to 5d6 sneak attack easily.

Also if you're using an Item to get Assassin's Stance, you may as well make your Weapon a Discipline weapon to help out with Accuracy (+1 enhancement bonus grants +3 to hit).




Flaws. With flaws allowed the character picks up two feats much earlier in progression, getting us access to EWP Quick Draw at a more reasonable level. This opens up room for two extra feats, which would likely go to Martial Stance(Assassin's Stance) and Shadow Blade for some extra damage at high level. Or to add on Weapon Finesse at low level, and switch out the strength for the more traditional dex, making you much stealthier and more fitting with the traditional shadow dancer archetype, though it costs you some damage.

Flaws v2. Instead of using Flaws to gain more feats, they can be used to drop the two fighter levels. You can replace these with the Sneak Attack Fighter variant, thus qualifying for the Sneak Attack requirement without worrying about your Vestige. This opens up the possibility of changing out to other vestiges as the situation warrants, and makes the build more stable. Other options include replacing the Binder with 3 levels of Swordsage, which gives a few extra useful maneuvers/stances, and fits the theme a bit better. You also trade out some Fort for more Reflex, but gain Wis to AC, giving incentive to boost Wisdom some more, giving higher AC and more rounded defense.

LA Buyoff. Telflammar Shadowlord doesn't require Shadow Jump to enter if you have the Shadow Walker template. This template costs a pitance in gold, and could be obtained at low level easily, letting Telflammar Shadowlord, and thus Shadow Pounce, come online much earlier. I didn't take it because I wanted to fit as much Shadowdancer into the class as possible (despite that 9th level not really doing much. Level8 or 10 is the real cutoff point for Shadowdancer).

Fractional BAB/Saves gains the base build +2 to Will Saves, +1 to Fort Saves, and 1 additional BAB, making for a pretty reasonable boost to core stats and hitting the magic +16 BAB number.

Bloodlines. With access to bloodlines and using the questionable RAW interpretation of being able to load up on several of these at level 1-2, you can get increased max skill ranks and enter both prestige classes at an earlier level. This allows entering early enough to get Shadow Pounce and still cap out Shadowdancer 10, which gives us an amazing 800ft per day of Shadow Jumping. I generally view this as cheesy, but getting either class 1 level earlier would make a huge deal for this build.


Ideally you can combine all of the above. Combining the LA Buyoff and Bloodlines and Flaws lets you qualify for both prestige classes a level early, so you can hop into Shadowlord at level 7 instead of Shadowdancer at 8. You get Shadow Pounce by level 10, and manage to get all 10 levels of Shadowdancer. You also get the extra SLAs provided by the Shadow Walker template, which are quite nice.



Core
Dungeonscape (Trapmaster Ranger ACF)
Tome of Magic (Binder, Improved Binding)
Oriental Adventures (Iajutsu Focus)
Unapproachable East (Telflammar Shadowlord)
Races of Stone (Gnomish Quickrazor)
Champions of Ruin (Craven)


The Dungeonscape variant is entirely optional, as noted elsewhere, and can dropped and skill points shifted if desired. If custom +skill items are not available, RoS and OA can both be dropped, and the extra high level feats can get filled in with other options, without much loss. This results in either switching to Weapon Finesse/Shadow Blade and switching to a dex build, or picking up Power Attack and taking advantage of using a big two hander and getting multiple two-handed full attacks a round.

The only really 100% Necessary sources besides Core are Unapproachable East and Tome of Magic, which provide two of the classes being used, and are the source of a lot of the utility that the Shadow Dancer is working with. Other sources all provide benefits used to flesh out the build, but could be replaced with items from other sources without ruining it.


So obviously we can't squeeze everything we want into a build like this. The backbone of this build is the Shadowdancer+Shadowlord, but that still leaves Race + 7 levels to play with. I considered a handful of alternatives that wound up being discarded, mostly due to not being able to hit prerequisites in a timely manner (if making the base build with UA, one of these may have been the winner)


Warforged Totemist/Swordsage entry. This build would be dropping the Iajutsu skill and the Quickrazor/Quick Draw feats. In exchange it would pick up Extra Slam, and Bite feats for Warforged, and at early levels use Totemist melds to get more natural attacks. At late level, switch the Totem Chakra bind to Blink Shirt for at will move action teleports, combined with the standard teleports to have 2 full attacks every round basically at will without any item dependency. The Swordsage dip would be used for a Shadow Hand maneuver to qualify for Assassin Stance at level 10, to get into Shadowlord. Trick here is getting enough feats early enough to qualify for everything, and likely would have been the best bet with full UA access as the baseline.

Swashbuckler/Factotum entry. Heavier focus on Dex/Int. Idea was to pump up int more, gaining more spells per day and take advantage of int to damage and factotum goodies. I considered doing this along with Assassin's Stance + Daring Outlaw, in place of Iajutsu to end up with a few extra sneak attack dice along with the int to damage. The real problem here, like above, was not having anywhere near enough feats to qualify for prestige classes on time and also get the sneak attack needed to fit build requirements and Shadowlord entry requirements.

Scout/Fighter Entry. Has the benefit of providing Skirmish (synergizes awesomely with Shadow Pouncing), and having Hide/Move Silently as class skills plus trap finding (allowing for you to replace Ranger). Costs some BAB though, and you want at least 5 levels + improved skirmish, and need to take two weapon fighting yourself if going that route. Even with Scout5/Fighter 2, getting into Shadowdancer on time was questionable, and Telflammar Shadowlord would be delayed until Assassin’s Stance came online, potentially moving Shadowpounce to the very end, making the build less viable at mid levels.

Some form of Monster build. I didn't look too much into this. It would probably have been better for originality score, and may have come together nicely, but honestly I don't like running monsters, and really didn't like the idea of having to lose more Shadowdancer levels to RHD/LA.

[Kazudo]

And that's it! We've got four entries, so we should have a Gold, Silver, Bronze, and Honorable Mention! Hey look at that! Interesting.

Competitors, don't give away which one is yours! I'll let everyone know after the judges are done, which should begin....

NOW!

[dysprosium]

Real life is a cruel mistress sometimes.

My entry was going to be NE goblin Swordsage 5/Stonedeath Assassin 5/Shadowdancer 7/Incarnate 3 with Sneak attack coming from assassin's stance, and Stonedeath Assassin, using Indigo Strike to pump up the sneak attack damage.

As promised though, I will judge these and begin posting results soon. (Soon in a cosmic sense that is).

[Kazudo]

I attempted to streamline and simplify judging down just a tad to ensure that we get multiple points of view. There's not as much emphasis on cleanliness or technique, just whether the build contains the elements, utterly refutes the disallowed element, and the general stability of the build including some likelihood of it being accepted by a DM.

I really enjoy a lot of the builds that were sent in! Here's looking forward to seeing how the rest of this plays out!

[Amphetryon]

I was going to submit a Kalashtar Lurk 7/Ebon Saint 5/Shadowdancer 8, who could use Power Points to get a relatively arbitrarily high number of Sneak Attack dice while being all but impossible to find.

[Sian]

My build consideration didn't get far enough to even flesh out the end, but the unevolved baseline were Swashbuckler 10/Swordsage 2/Shadowdancer 8, or something in those lines with Daring Outlaw to grab Sneak Attack dice ... and probably cut off a few Swashbuckler levels for something else

[sakuuya]

Guaranteed honorable mention? AW YISS. :smallcool:

In addition to the build I did submit, I tried to make one that was SRD only: Human Paragon 2/Sneak Attack Thug 3/Assassin 5/Human Paragon +1/Arcane Trickster 4/Shadowdancer 5. It was pretty rickety (needed a Hand of the Mage to qualify for Arcane Trickster), so I'm glad I decided to focus on the other build.

[Kazudo]

Repaired a few entries on the request of the competitors who submitted them.

I think I've about figured out what the next competition's going to be, though I'm still open to suggestions in case something better comes along.

[Zombulian]

I'm pretty bummed I didn't end up submitting, but the build just sort of had Shadowdancer as an afterthought, and it barely helped the build at all, so I didn't think it'd do very well.
The plan was Spellthief 1/DFA 6-8/Assassin 1/Unseen Seer X and then Shadowdancer shoved in. I really liked the DFA part of the build as it gave me invisibility all day, insane CC, and the ability to shift into a humanoid that gets an extra 3d6 SA and Hide and Move Silently bonuses. Unfortunately it kept shifting focuses, and the consistent odd-man out of the build was Shadowdancer. Good job to those who did post, I'm excited to see the judging.

[OMG PONIES]

I was going to submit a Kalashtar Lurk 7/Ebon Saint 5/Shadowdancer 8, who could use Power Points to get a relatively arbitrarily high number of Sneak Attack dice while being all but impossible to find.

Lurk/Ebon Saint is one of my favorite combinations for actual gameplay, though its self-imposed limits and scant support outside of CPsi make it a tough optimization nut to crack. I always got the impression of Ebon Saints as a Winston Wolfe type, mostly from the flavor quote that introduces the PrC:


Generally speaking, if I'm involved, things have gone too far already.

Between that and the no-frills Mind Interrogation dire augment, what's not to love? However, I'm intrigued by your claim of lots o' Sneak Attack dice. How'd you get around the following?


When powering an augment with power points, a lurk cannot spend more total power points than her lurk level on any single lurk augment.
From my reading, you've got +3d6 from classes, along with up to +4d6 from the Additional Sneak Attack Lurk Augment. Did you find a way to bust the cap off of that?


I'm pretty bummed I didn't end up submitting, but the build just sort of had Shadowdancer as an afterthought, and it barely helped the build at all, so I didn't think it'd do very well.
The plan was Spellthief 1/DFA 6-8/Assassin 1/Unseen Seer X and then Shadowdancer shoved in. I really liked the DFA part of the build as it gave me invisibility all day, insane CC, and the ability to shift into a humanoid that gets an extra 3d6 SA and Hide and Move Silently bonuses. Unfortunately it kept shifting focuses, and the consistent odd-man out of the build was Shadowdancer. Good job to those who did post, I'm excited to see the judging.

What is CC short for? Also, was the humanoid form you were looking at a Dark Stalker from Fiend Folio? I was playing with two different ideas, one of which used their junior version, the Dark Creeper.

Unfortunately, since I bounced between the two, I never settled on either. Here they are:
Dark Creeper Warlock 5/Swordsage 1/Shadowdancer 10 w/ Darkness at will and Instinctive Darkness feat. Since all of the Shadowdancer's abilities are keyed off of being in or near shadows, you can make them wherever you want as a swift action and you've got blindsight to negate concealment. Sneak Attack was lacking, with only 4d6 from race and Assassin's Stance.
Changeling Bard 9/Recaster 2/Shadowdancer 9 w/ Requiem. Inspire Greatness, etc. applied to the shadow really buffed it up, and darkness as a spell known gave a limited version of the above "darkness on command." Recaster appears to snag Hunter's Eye without the usual Unseen Seer, and has the fun side effect of allowing a sudden Extend on it as well. Toss in Empower Spell to pick up more sneak attack and Practiced Spellcaster w/ an ioun stone to bump CL to 15 for +7d6 Sneak Attack for 2 rounds for the cost of a 4th-level spell. Liberal use of sword of subtlety and other items drove up the SA total, but it was still too much of a nova power to see actual use.

Long story short, I may be in to judge this.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Funny enough, I had a stub of a Lurk build, too.

But my build was going to be the unconventional mix of SA Thug Fighter/Spirit Shaman (using Nightbringer Initiate to get hide/Move Silently). I'd summon my own shadows and generally be a bit silly.

Damn you Father Time!

[Zombulian]

What is CC short for? Also, was the humanoid form you were looking at a Dark Stalker from Fiend Folio? I was playing with two different ideas, one of which used their junior version, the Dark Creeper.

Crowd Control. Dragonfire Adept is stupid good at controlling a battlefield. It's an MMO term I think, because I just remembered that the general term here is Battlefield Control (BFC). And yeah I was gonna say Dark Stalker but I was thinking that I was wrong because I was also running the Darkstalker feat.

[NoACWarrior]

So where do we put our judging scores?

On a side note I withdrew my entry because I found a better way of doing what I wanted without SD - once that happened I became uninterested in the "old build".

It was a Spellthief 7 knight 3 fighter 2 and shadow dancer 8 with some hefty lockdown including standstill. But alas I was able to sub out shadow dancer and spellthief to make a better build, so I stopped wanting to develop it for this competition.

But on the bright side, I couldn't have figured out that DD was the key to making the lockdown build idea in my head to actually work.

[Kazudo]

The way judging works (for the new folk) is in a few stages:

1. Judge and post your judging in some organized fashion or other here in public view.
2. Any of the competitors who have any disputes will PM them directly to me (not judges or posting it in forum, to retain anonymity)
3. I'll attempt to resolve any disputes, but any of them that are direct issues will be posted here for you to handle, again, publicly (while preserving anonymity until the very end)
4. Once the end of the judging cycle is done, tallies will be verified and we'll unveil who did how well.
5. New thread will be posted shortly after the final reveal

Which is standard ICOCitP procedure, really, for any vets of those competitions.

[Ikeren]

Fractional BAB/Saves gains the base build +2 to Will Saves, +1 to Fort Saves, and 1 additional BAB, making for a pretty reasonable boost to core stats and hitting the magic +16 BAB number.

You want to read Unearthed Arcana page 73 again. A 5th level cleric/2nd level fighter has a base fortitude save of 7.5

That's 4.5 + 3 --- showing that the 2 fighter levels do indeed provide the +2 bonus for the opening level. If it was the way you say it is, that character should have an example fortitude save of 5.5, not 7.5.

As a result, fractional saves produces huge boosts to multiclassed characters --- that probably aren't doing bad without it.


Toss in Empower Spell to pick up more sneak attack and Practiced Spellcaster w/ an ioun stone to bump CL to 15 for +7d6 Sneak Attack for 2 rounds for the cost of a 4th-level spell.

I'd never thought about empowering/maximizing Hunters Eye, but that's brilliant.


Also, anyone was worried that builds would turn out far too similar: apparently not.

[Amphetryon]

Lurk/Ebon Saint is one of my favorite combinations for actual gameplay, though its self-imposed limits and scant support outside of CPsi make it a tough optimization nut to crack. I always got the impression of Ebon Saints as a Winston Wolfe type, mostly from the flavor quote that introduces the PrC:



Between that and the no-frills Mind Interrogation dire augment, what's not to love? However, I'm intrigued by your claim of lots o' Sneak Attack dice. How'd you get around the following?


From my reading, you've got +3d6 from classes, along with up to +4d6 from the Additional Sneak Attack Lurk Augment. Did you find a way to bust the cap off of that?

I could have potentially shoe-horned in another 2d6 from Assassin's Stance (it'd be a tight fit); there's also some room for debate as to whether power points gained from non-Lurk sources are actually prohibited from being added to Lurk augments or not, and exactly where the line on that prohibition stood.

Even without it, 7d6 Sneak Attack on a chassis focusing on getting to Shadowdancer and its complete lack of SA is a fairly beefy damage upgrade outside TO, before other considerations.

[NoACWarrior]

OK I'll start my judging here - Reposting and edited my scoring criteria with 5 points available in each category.

Originality (5 points):
Race (1) - Generalists get a 0.5 and Races which don’t fit well into the architype get a 1, expected and optimized races get a 0.
Base Class (1) - Using a interesting base class will get you 1, where as a more expected base class will net you a 0.5.
Combination of Class abilities (2) - being able to synergize between different classes gives you a 2 for 3 or more combined class abilities, with a 1 for only combing 2 class abilities.
Crackers with your Cheese (1) - 1 bit of cheese gets only 0.5 where as 0 cheese gets the full 1.

Power (5 points):
In combat / usefulness (3) - if the overall build is a t3 it gets 3, t4 is 2, and with a t5 ranking getting 1.
Out of combat (2) - for each out of combat role the build can do it gets a 0.5.

Build Stability / technique (5 points):
Multiclassing (1) - If only 1 base class is used then 1, if two or more then 0.5, if breaking multiclassing XP penalties then 0.
Prerequisites (1) - If only meeting the prerequisites then 0.5, if exceeding the prerequisites then 1, 0 points if a prerequisites was met with some type of magic item or otherwise permanent magical type of buff which can be otherwise suppressed or dispelled.
Use of the Special Prestige Class (1.5) - 0.50 for one ability used, and 1 for two abilities used, and 1.5 for 3 or more abilities used.
Use of the Special Class Feature (1.5) - 0.5 for 1d6 sneak with no special use, 1 for 1d6 sneak with special use, 1.25 for 2d6 sneak with no special use, and 1.5 for 2d6 sneak or more with a special use.

Build: Ayesha N Marrulurk Fighter 2 / Scorpion Heritor 8 / Shadow Dancer 6
Overall score 12/15
Originality (4 points):
Race (0) - Optimized race, pretty gutsy to try it though
Base Class (1) - Using RHD is a neat idea for a base class granting you one of the abilities needed.
Combination of Class abilities (2) - Hide in plain sight, sneak attack, and poison attack.
Crackers with your Cheese (1) - you don't even buy off and fully utilize your RHD, bravo!

Power (3.5 points):
In combat / usefulness (2) - I don't see much in the way of usefulness past combat abilities (high t4), sure UMD is high enough, but that alone I don't think is enough to push into t3.
Out of combat (1.5) - Survival, listen and spot, and UMD (use to cast OoC spells).


Build Stability / technique (4.5 points):
Multiclassing (1) - technically you use 1 base class but have racial HD.
Prerequisites (1) - hide and move silently is pretty much maxed.
Use of the Special Prestige Class (1) - hide in plain sight and shadow servent used, shadow jump not use offensively.
Use of the Special Class Feature (1.5) - use of woodland archer in combo with 6d6 sneak attack was a good touch


Build: The Unrouge NonL E Human Multiple base classes and PrCs
Overall score 10.5/15
Originality (3 points):
Race (0.5) - just a regular Hugh Mann
Base Class (1) - Using many base classes was unexpected, sometimes you need to generalize to get the job done.
Combination of Class abilities (1) - Hide in plain sight and sneak attack (I can't find many more obvious combos and no additional tactics were given).
Crackers with your Cheese (0.5) - a bit of cheese but not too bad (fractional BAB).

Power (3.5 points):
In combat / usefulness (2) - High t4, the small spashes of spells and abilities don't push into t3.
Out of combat (1.5) - Party face, spells, and rouge trap finding.


Build Stability / technique (4 points):
Multiclassing (0.5) - You did good in that you don't ignore the multiclass penalties.
Prerequisites (1) - hide and move silently is pretty much maxed.
Use of the Special Prestige Class (1) - hide in plain sight used, shadow jump not used offensively, but clearly using the defensive abilities and basically being able to front line.
Use of the Special Class Feature (1.5) - staggering strike in combo with 10d6 sneak attack can be nice for single target lockdown


Build: Kelia the Souldancer LN Human CS Monk 2 / Thug Sneak Attack Fighter 1 / Incarnate 4 / Shadow Dancer 1 / Incarnet 5-16
Overall score 10.5/15
Originality (4.5 points):
Race (0.5) - just a regular Hugh Mann
Base Class (1) - Technically your base class is monk, just pure funnyness right there.
Combination of Class abilities (2) - Hide in plain sight, soulmelds, sneak attack.
Crackers with your Cheese (1) - besides a side of UA ACF nothing to mention.

Power (3 points):
In combat / usefulness (2) - High t4, the small spashes of abilities don't push into t3.
Out of combat (1) - Soulmelds, perception.


Build Stability / technique (3 points):
Multiclassing (0.5) - no multiclass penalties here.
Prerequisites (0.5) - hide and move silently is bare minimum, so is dance.
Use of the Special Prestige Class (1) - hide in plain sight used but thats really the only ability you have.
Use of the Special Class Feature (1) - using 1d6 sneak attack at ranged is pretty rough at times, but you got a good damage rating off of it.


Build: Blaine Night the Six-Fingered Any Human Ranger 2 / Binder 3 / Fighter 2 / Shadow dancer 9 / Telflammar Shadowlord 4
Overall score 12/15
Originality (4.5 points):
Race (0.5) - just a regular Hugh Mann
Base Class (1) - None of your base classes are rouge types, could be interesting.
Combination of Class abilities (2) - hide in plain sight, sneak attack, shadow pounce.
Crackers with your Cheese (1) - besides using a 3.0 build nothing to mention.

Power (4 points):
In combat / usefulness (2) - Low t4, damage is very subpar, spells help push to t4 with some versatility.
Out of combat (2) - Vestiges, perception, survival, trap finding.


Build Stability / technique (3.5 points):
Multiclassing (0.5) - just multiclassing without breaking the penalties out.
Prerequisites (0.5) - hide and move silently is bare minimum, so is dance.
Use of the Special Prestige Class (1) - using the shadow jump, hide in plain sight, .
Use of the Special Class Feature (1.5) - using 2d6 sneak attack is good with a pounce.

Onto thoughts afterward. I'm surprised that the SD did not get used as much as I thought it would. Shadow Jump is actually a good offensive ability and only 1 build submitted used it as such. Also, many people glossed over how helpful a Su derived DD can be, and what can still be done after one. Even with the sneak attack requirement I expected at least 1 charger build centered around Ronin from CWar. It was interesting that many of the builds actually used hide in plain-sight. Also I thought someone would be adventurous and try a non-synergizing race such as giant. Humans are good and all, but people should move on. In the end I tied the 1st and 4th build listed as being first and the 2nd and 3rd build submitted as being 3rd. I'll mull on some type of tie breaker if it comes to it.

Edit: finished adding final thoughts as well.

[sakuuya]

Thanks for the quick judging, NoACWarrior!

[OMG PONIES]

I'd never thought about empowering/maximizing Hunters Eye, but that's brilliant.

Back atcha! I hadn't thought of maximizing it since I was focused on the number of dice; your addition puts a reliable total on the result of those dice. However, it wouldn't fit into my proposed build without some serious finessing.


I could have potentially shoe-horned in another 2d6 from Assassin's Stance (it'd be a tight fit); there's also some room for debate as to whether power points gained from non-Lurk sources are actually prohibited from being added to Lurk augments or not, and exactly where the line on that prohibition stood.

Even without it, 7d6 Sneak Attack on a chassis focusing on getting to Shadowdancer and its complete lack of SA is a fairly beefy damage upgrade outside TO, before other considerations.

Fair enough. I just think I've seen too many TO posts to think anyone has a modicum of restraint in mind when they use a phrase like "arbitrarily high" :smallbiggrin:. Also, I'm unfamiliar about the debate re: non-lurk PP and lurk augments. Has it cropped up in any threads you could link?

[Deadline]

I'm bummed that I couldn't get my build stub for this ready and submitted. I was going to shoot for a Thug SA Fighter 1/Paladin 4/Shadowbane Inquisitor/Shadowdancer build that focused on stealth in heavy armor and sneak attacking the guilty with a greatsword from the shadows.

I may actually be able to pry out enough time to judge for this, though. I think I can manage 4 entries pretty easily.

[Kazudo]

Comments on NoACWarrior's judging commentary:


In combat / usefulness (2) - Low t4, damage is very subpar, spells help push to t4 with some versatility.


Damage is much better than being given credit for. It's low-moderate damage at low levels, but at high level multiple full attacks in a round, plus making full use of Iaijutsu Focus with Quickrazor gives some absolutely amazing damage potential (Capping out somewhere in the vicinity of 16d6+35 18 times in a single round when fully equipped).


Prerequisites (0.5) - hide and move silently is bare minimum, so is dance.


I'm not sure I understand this. I enter the class when the prereqs are barely met to get in early. But Hide and Move Silently get maxed out over the course of the build. Is this judging point intended to be "Wait until several levels after you qualify for the class to enter"?

Well, it's just not a PO Competition if there aren't a few rebuttals, huh?

[NoACWarrior]

Well, it's just not a PO Competition if there aren't a few rebuttals, huh?

Regarding the damage comment - I understand at higher levels that iterative attacks are overall better than most other things. What I'm trying to say as well is that damage does not allow a class to go thru the t3-t4 barrier and that when dealing with multiple attacks regarding DR its much better to have less attacks which can do more damage and have a better chance to hit.

As for the "just meeting" requirements I was trying to point out that people simply dip into skills and / or feats. Its OK if a person meets the requirements, but using the skills at full ranks, and using the feats is more flavorful than just ignoring a particular requirement after you meet it. This however can't be checked unless you actually see the build in action, but I assume that when someone put more ranks in a skill the more likely they were to actually use it. While perform dance is pretty much a dead skill compared to something like diplomacy and UMD, its pretty gutsy to advance dance when diplo and UMD would be a much better choice for power of the build.

[dysprosium]

For the inaugural competition for Junkyard Wars the entrants were asked to make a build that utilized sneak attack, had levels in Shadowdancer but did not have any levels in the Rogue class. I tried to gauge the abilities of each entry separately though across the board comparisons were made. Of course, no comment here is personal.

And now for the scores:

Ayesha 13
Originality 4.75: Though marralurks should have been an expected race, you were the only one to actually use them. Scorpion Heritor is both flavorful and unique to this round. Plus you make a poisoning sniping style character.
Power 3.75: You are very good at what you can do—hiding, sniping, poisoning, scouting. Though that is about it. The Craft (poison) could be used out of combat for possible WBL shenanigans but you are a combat character. Darkstalker comes on a bit late for my personal taste and Craven is very late—which you agree.
Build Stability 4.5: You may not have taken all 10 levels of Shadowdancer, but you qualify and make good use of the levels that you did. I like the use of the shadow as additional scouter and using its Strength draining abilities in conjunction with your own poisoning abilities. It is also a very straight build and flows together well
Sneak Attack: +6d6
Shadowdancer Levels: 6

The Unrogue 9
Originality 2.5: I think Big Dipper would also be an appropriate name for this character. The story may write itself but I would like a little more of it. You have a lot of non specific references to different things without solidly placing them anywhere. I think your intent was to allow someone to take your idea and insert it into their own campaign seamlessly but comes across as “I didn’t feel like fleshing out everything.”
Power 4.5: You have found lots of prestige classes that have sneak attack at their first level and have maximized its potential. You are a combat character with a small amount of first level spells. Darkstalker comes on a bit late for my personal taste. You cannot deny the potential damage that you can dish out. You also have utility to keep yourself in non combat and social situations.
Build Stability 2: I know this isn’t the Iron Chef competition and realize that things are different here. However, fractional BAB is still an alternate rule system and those are still out (see the OP). As pointed out, this build requires it to qualify for everything and basically cannot otherwise. On the plus side, you were the only competitor to take all ten levels of Shadowdancer. You also run into the cross setting problem of worshipping Taiia and at least nominally coming from Faerun, since that is where the city of Amn is. Besides the hide in plain sight you make no mention of the Shadowdancer’s abilities. That makes nearly the entire Shadowdancer part of the build “tacked on” especially since this component does not increase sneak attack and that was what your first ten levels were devoted to.
Sneak Attack: +8d6 plus 2d6 (stance specific)
Shadowdancer Levels: 10

Kelia the Souldancer 8.5
Originality 3.5: You may be just a human like three quarters of the competition but you have Cobra Strike Monk and Incarnate which are unique to you. In fact you take lots of Incarnate.
Power 2.5: You have the power and capability of an Incarnate. You are good at scouting with Darkstalker, which you get pretty early, and hide in plain sight. I do like that you focused on one particular soulmeld and worked with it to its maximum potential. However you are limited in your out of combat and social encounters.
Build Stability 2.5: You have met the bare minimum of the required criteria. Don’t get me wrong, Incarnates are great—I like them a lot—but this build is more of an Incarnate build than one that focuses on the Junkyard components. You take advantage of your sneak attack by combining it with the dissolving spittle and Craven but your sneak attack alone is just +1d6. You qualify for Shadowdancer easily as well as the rest of your feats. Personally I would have liked you to have picked all of the build’s feats and ability level ups so it does not look like it was unfinished.
Sneak Attack: +1d6
Shadowdancer Levels: 1

Blaine Night the Six Fingered 9.75
Originality 3: I was (pleasantly) surprised to not see more Shadowlords but it is good to see one here. A unique way to gain the sneak attack feature even though it is not expanded upon beyond the pact. Binder was nice change of pace along with the Ranger ACF for trapfinding. Unfortunately most of the build is not a “new” idea. I did like the fluff that you did write, even if you say it is not your forte, at least you tried. I also like that you refuse to suppress the sign of your vestige.
Power 3: You have crazy movement capabilities and good damage potential. You have out of combat utility through trapfinding. You have a small amount of useful spells. Even though Binders are known for their versatility, you cannot ever unbind Andromalius or else you would lose your Shadowlord abilities. I would have also taken Darkstalker instead of EWP Gnomish quickrazor since as a sneaky type character, you need to be undetectable from everyone to be effective. Scent and tremorsense alone can find you even with hide in plain sight. And I don’t like Gnomish quickrazors.
Build Stability 3.75: Your interpretation for shadow jump may not sit well with certain DMs though it would be fine with me. You qualify for all of your feats and prestige classes. I also liked the class features and build explanations. More sneak attack (outside of items) would have scored you higher here.
Sneak Attack: +2d6 (specific)
Shadowdancer Levels: 9

[Ikeren]

Quick Aggregate:
Build 1: 12/15, 13/15 = 25/30
Build 2: 10.5/15, 9/15 = 19.5/30
Build 3: 10.5/15, 8.5/15 = 19/30
Build 4: 12/15, 9.75/15 = 21.75/30

Also, I just realized: judges should not post openly, but instead PM separate, same as unveils. Have you guys really been doing things this way this entire time? Bandwagon effects/reading others responses creates serious bias. I imagine the other competitions do things the same way as well? Might be worth trying to change things for minor congnitive benefit?

[Kazudo]

Also, I just realized: judges should not post openly, but instead PM separate, same as unveils. Have you guys really been doing things this way this entire time? Bandwagon effects/reading others responses creates serious bias. I imagine the other competitions do things the same way as well? Might be worth trying to change things for minor congnitive benefit?

That actually brings up an interesting point. Perhaps that's how we should do things in this competition.

We'll finish this one off the way it started, then next round judging will be done via the chairman as well to ensure that there's no serious bias against specific judges.

[Amphetryon]

Quick Aggregate:
Build 1: 12/15, 13/15 = 25/30
Build 2: 10.5/15, 9/15 = 19.5/30
Build 3: 10.5/15, 8.5/15 = 19/30
Build 4: 12/15, 9.75/15 = 21.75/30

Also, I just realized: judges should not post openly, but instead PM separate, same as unveils. Have you guys really been doing things this way this entire time? Bandwagon effects/reading others responses creates serious bias. I imagine the other competitions do things the same way as well? Might be worth trying to change things for minor congnitive benefit?

Without actual evidence of such bias, your concerns - while potentially meritorious - are merely speculative.

[Windstorm]

Without actual evidence of such bias, your concerns - while potentially meritorious - are merely speculative.

he does have a fairly decent point, its actually a pretty well known psycological phenomenon. however, such a system also deprives a participant of the ability to make a rebuttal against potentially incorrect or misguided reasoning by a judge.

instead, I propose the following:
Judges score and PM the result and reasoning to the organizer, who then does a batch post of the scores and reasoning after all have been received. Participants are then given time to make rebuttals, and judges can PM to have the score changed with a reason for the change given and added to the post. At the end of this window, scores are final and the winner is declared. such a system is fair to both judges and participants, and prevents initial bias.

quite sad that I missed this one, Life decided to intrude while the forums were down and I never was able to finish my submission in time :smallfrown:

[Amphetryon]

he does have a fairly decent point, its actually a pretty well known psycological phenomenon. however, such a system also deprives a participant of the ability to make a rebuttal against potentially incorrect or misguided reasoning by a judge.

instead, I propose the following:
Judges score and PM the result and reasoning to the organizer, who then does a batch post of the scores and reasoning after all have been received. Participants are then given time to make rebuttals, and judges can PM to have the score changed with a reason for the change given and added to the post. At the end of this window, scores are final and the winner is declared. such a system is fair to both judges and participants, and prevents initial bias.

quite sad that I missed this one, Life decided to intrude while the forums were down and I never was able to finish my submission in time :smallfrown:

It also presupposes that judges read judgments posted by others prior to posting their own scores; I can assure you not all judges do that.

[Windstorm]

It also presupposes that judges read judgments posted by others prior to posting their own scores; I can assure you not all judges do that.

it does, but given the format of communication we're working with, isn't that a reasonable expectation?

even if the judges don't, the above methods remove any appearance of bias while still being fair on the participants of the competition.

[dextercorvia]

I know in the past, when I judged, I held off on reading other's judgements until I had formed my own. I remember several others saying they did the same.

Also, kudos to Kazudo for the interesting spin on IC. I'm down for something in the next round.

[Seerow]

To play the devil's advocate, judge scores being posted as they come rather than as a burst of posts after the submission deadline gives us something to talk about over that two-week period, lets rebuttals be handled simultaneously, and thus lets us move onto the following contest that much sooner.

Is the possibility of groupthink bias worth the extra activity and speed of resolution?

[Windstorm]

To play the devil's advocate, judge scores being posted as they come rather than as a burst of posts after the submission deadline gives us something to talk about over that two-week period, lets rebuttals be handled simultaneously, and thus lets us move onto the following contest that much sooner.

Is the possibility of groupthink bias worth the extra activity and speed of resolution?

so with both of us playing devils advocate, is that inception or xzibit? :smalltongue:

[dysprosium]

The format of judging is how it has been handled for 50+ iterations of Iron Chef and 20+ iterations of Zinc Saucier and there have not been any issues of bias to my knowledge.

Of course Kazudo can use whatever format that he feels is best for his own competition.

Believe me, I would have scored these builds the same way whether I was first or second or third, etc.

[Ikeren]

It also presupposes that judges read judgments posted by others prior to posting their own scores; I can assure you not all judges do that.

Yes, if judges all don't read each others comments until after they wrote theirs, that would negate potential biasing. That being said, with public posts, we have no guarantee left or right.

@Seerow: I think the question of timeliness is a far more interesting and relevant one. It might be worth it to court risk in favour of keeping things moving.


The format of judging is how it has been handled for 50+ iterations of Iron Chef and 20+ iterations of Zinc Saucier and there have not been any issues of bias to my knowledge.

.....

Believe me, I would have scored these builds the same way whether I was first or second or third, etc.

The point of these things is that they're subtle.
See: http://lesswrong.com/lw/lj/the_halo_effect/
and http://lesswrong.com/lw/j7/anchoring_and_adjustment/
and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandwagon_effect

You probably don't realize you do these things, and you probably do. That's what all our modern research in psych/neuropsych/behavioural psych/behavioural economics shows.

[dysprosium]

When I was in college (early 90s), a reading assignment I had was an essay rather similar to the halo effect web article you posted.

The gist of that essay (of which I cannot remember its name) was that people cannot make their own decsions or have their own opinion when anyone tells them anything about the thing the people are looking at or thinking about. An example that was used was one person telling someone else that the Mona Lisa is a great painting. Now the person already has an idea in their head that the Mona Lisa is a great painting even without knowing or seeing it.

Point is there, that I understand the point you are trying to make. I did not make my judgements based upon NoACWarrior's post. There is no way for me to prove that to you (or anyone else) because you cannot prove a negative. The only thing I see between my scores and NoACWarrior's scores are that the two he scored the highest were the two I scored the highest and the two he scored the lowest were the two I scored the lowest.

Actually looking again at my scores, I have a clear front runner with the next three builds closer together in scores.

A third judge could post scores that could make the Unrogue move into first place. Would that indicate a counterbias then?

[NoACWarrior]

Eh, I didn't realize this would be an issue otherwise I wouldn't have posted it until I was told I could.

For the future we might want to do something like an open google doc view only and refer the contestants to it while they do their rebuttals what not thru the PM system, or open up a portion of the google doc so they can post anonymously and the judges can then respond there and update scores. This would definitely stop issues where people judge based on other judges since both the scoring and the rebuttals are offsite.

This would also ease undue burden on the chairman and make for a much faster process. At the end of the rebuttals the judges would then post their scores to the thread within 24 hours and final results / tallies can be made.

[dysprosium]

Don't feel bad NoACWarrior, no one realized there would be an issue. And in this poster's opinion it is not an issue.

[OMG PONIES]

...you cannot prove a negative.

Yeah, but you can't prove that you can't prove a negative. So maybe you can prove that something can't....I'll see myself out.


The only thing I see between my scores and NoACWarrior's scores are that the two he scored the highest were the two I scored the highest and the two he scored the lowest were the two I scored the lowest.

Aha, j'accuse! Four out of four builds have been compromised!


For the future we might want to do something like an open google doc view only and refer the contestants to it while they do their rebuttals what not thru the PM system, or open up a portion of the google doc so they can post anonymously and the judges can then respond there and update scores. This would definitely stop issues where people judge based on other judges since both the scoring and the rebuttals are offsite.

Or would it just move the bias somewhere else? :smalltongue:


This would also ease undue burden on the chairman and make for a much faster process. At the end of the rebuttals the judges would then post their scores to the thread within 24 hours and final results / tallies can be made.

Gives the judges a relatively small "launch window," doesn't it? I hate to sound like a contrarian, but my good friend Johannes Sebastian once told me if it ain't baroque...


Yes, if judges all don't read each others comments until after they wrote theirs, that would negate potential biasing. That being said, with public posts, we have no guarantee left or right.

@Seerow: I think the question of timeliness is a far more interesting and relevant one. It might be worth it to court risk in favour of keeping things moving.

I agree with that sentiment. The articles cited are interesting, but in a world as complex as ours come with their own set of questions.


The point of these things is that they're subtle.
See: http://lesswrong.com/lw/lj/the_halo_effect/

An interesting read, but I don't know how relevant the halo effect is to our competitions. In all, they seem to be tied to physical characteristics unknown via the Net or character traits masked by the current process of anonymously posting entries. I could see this effect coming into play without anonymity, i.e. "I think of OMG PONIES as a great optimizer, thus his work must be great optimization and I should always score it higher, regardless of its actual merit. Also, he's one good-looking sonofagun." I wonder if anonymity does anything to mitigate this effect, but I'd think that it does.


and http://lesswrong.com/lw/j7/anchoring_and_adjustment/

Another interesting read, and more germaine to our competitions. I could see this idea of anchoring having an effect from one judge to the next, i.e. "OMG PONIES gave this build a 5, so I can't really give it a 1 because my mind is subconsciously trained on 5." However, the article itself says that "debiasing manipulations for anchoring have generally proved not very effective."

I'll admit that in my earlier days, I exhibited fierce anti-anchoring; if I saw a judge give a build high marks, that build would be the subject of my intense scrutiny to see if it "deserved" said ranking. Granted, I've found that the most helpful counter to this is creating my own concrete scoring rubric that I can follow regardless of what scores other judges have given.


and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandwagon_effect

This seems like it has an impact on the optimization community in general more than our individual competitions, i.e. "Darkstalker is a good feat for stealthy builds because a bunch of other optimizers have said it's a good feat for stealthy builds." I'd think that the number of judges in a given round of our competition is too small to have a measurable impact, but I suppose the 5th judge in a round could say "4 esteemed judges have already given a score of X; who am I to disagree?" ...sail the world and the seven seas. Everybody's looking for something...


You probably don't realize you do these things, and you probably do. That's what all our modern research in psych/neuropsych/behavioural psych/behavioural economics shows.

Here's my main sticking point with these subtle phenomena; does increased awareness actually cause a decrease in their influence? If I'm more aware that I trust handsome bastards instinctively over homely saints, does that stop me from doing it? Or do I continue on, aware but unable to stop my subconscious mind? Or, on the other hand, do I rage against the machine and intentionally act in opposition of my bias, thus creating a new bias based solely on spiting the prior one?

TL;DR? It's my opinion that we already have things in place to mitigate these influences to an acceptable level. Can we ever stop being influenced by others? Is this real life? Are we in the Matrix?!

[Windstorm]

Here's my main sticking point with these subtle phenomena; does increased awareness actually cause a decrease in their influence? If I'm more aware that I trust handsome bastards instinctively over homely saints, does that stop me from doing it? Or do I continue on, aware but unable to stop my subconscious mind? Or, on the other hand, do I rage against the machine and intentionally act in opposition of my bias, thus creating a new bias based solely on spiting the prior one?

not that it matters all that much, but since "social engineering" is my day job:

increased awareness of sources of bias actually increases the occurrence of the effect in most cases, because your concentration becomes focused on preventing that bias, you become more aware of all the factors that might bias you towards a particular direction, and are more likely to be affected by them as a result.

this is actually a large part of the reason the Olympics went to anonymous judging for some events.

my suggestion earlier in the thread was in part playing devils advocate, and in part an honest attempt to improve the system we have now.

[Ikeren]

Sorry -- I don't really mean that I think this is a big deal. To be honest, I think none of this is a big deal. I just find this stuff fascinating, and like Windstorm, work with it a lot. So I notice things.

@dysprosium: I don't think you did anything wrong. I'm actually generally quite impressed with the cogency of the judging here; it is both far better than I expected and far better than I'd expect to get from the other site I'm on.

As for the Unrogue and the counterbias; I have no idea why you'd use that as an example, given that Kelia is in last place, and there are some odds that neither build is even mine :P . But perhaps. There also is an underdog effect :P

@NoAC: I don't think you did anything wrong, either! This is just my meticulous systems analysis personality (one that doesn't just do systems analysis for RPG's). Though I think your google doc suggestion is excellent.

@OMG Ponies: Sorry I wasn't clear; the first couple articles were linked just to demonstrate that our minds and motivations are more complex and subtle than we generally give them credit (though you're right that anchoring could have some relevance). The Bandwagon effect is the thing that is specifically relevant.

More specifically
does increased awareness actually cause a decrease in their influence? If I'm more aware that I trust handsome bastards instinctively over homely saints, does that stop me from doing it? Or do I continue on, aware but unable to stop my subconscious mind? Or, on the other hand, do I rage against the machine and intentionally act in opposition of my bias, thus creating a new bias based solely on spiting the prior one?

TL;DR? It's my opinion that we already have things in place to mitigate these influences to an acceptable level. Can we ever stop being influenced by others? Is this real life? Are we in the Matrix?!

This is what my masters degree is :P . Results are ambiguous, and case by case. Negating the Planning Effect with averaging similar projects and "pre-mortems" is highly effective. The Halo effect is harder to negate, and as Windstorm points out, some biases actually become more prominent once you point them out. The best mitigations are ones that remove the problem; like posting all the judges feedback at the same time :P

@Windstorm: I want to steal your job.

To be clear: My degree of caring is pretty low, but I find this conversation generally fascinating. I don't think any of you are anything but awesome, and thus far I'm exceptionally pleased by the judging.

[Amphetryon]

When I was in college (early 90s), a reading assignment I had was an essay rather similar to the halo effect web article you posted.

The gist of that essay (of which I cannot remember its name) was that people cannot make their own decsions or have their own opinion when anyone tells them anything about the thing the people are looking at or thinking about. An example that was used was one person telling someone else that the Mona Lisa is a great painting. Now the person already has an idea in their head that the Mona Lisa is a great painting even without knowing or seeing it.

Point is there, that I understand the point you are trying to make. I did not make my judgements based upon NoACWarrior's post. There is no way for me to prove that to you (or anyone else) because you cannot prove a negative. The only thing I see between my scores and NoACWarrior's scores are that the two he scored the highest were the two I scored the highest and the two he scored the lowest were the two I scored the lowest.

Actually looking again at my scores, I have a clear front runner with the next three builds closer together in scores.

A third judge could post scores that could make the Unrogue move into first place. Would that indicate a counterbias then?

If the mere presence of public opinions is the issue that is creating a concern about bias, then the non-judges, non-competitors, who weigh in to say "Man, XYZ is a cool build," or "Wow, I never thought to combine Feat 3 with Race BZ; great synergy there!" are also problematic, aren't they? Where do we draw the line out of concerns - voiced but unproven - about bias issues from posted opinions influencing judges?

[Ikeren]

Well, optimally builds would be PM'ed to judges, then judges PM reviews back to Chair, then chair posts all reviews at once.

The major downside would be that this thread would be very unintersting for a very long time in the competition.

[Amphetryon]

Well, optimally builds would be PM'ed to judges, then judges PM reviews back to Chair, then chair posts all reviews at once.

The major downside would be that this thread would be very unintersting for a very long time in the competition.

Here's the thing: It's entirely reasonable to posit that some Playgrounders know each other off-site, possibly even in the so-called real world (I know that I do, and find the odds that I'm alone in this to be astronomically against that notion). We have no indication that contestants don't discuss their builds outside of these threads, and I can assure you, anecdotally, that it has come up in my own experience. All of that extra PMing would therefore have no provable impact on bias, particularly if bystanders are allowed to comment in the thread on the builds and create bias in that fashion.

[Deadline]

Initial read through and notes - COMPLETE
Builds fully judged - 50%

Hopefully I can get this done before the weekend. If I can steal some time to work on it tonight, then it will be incoming much more quickly.

[Ikeren]

We have no indication that contestants don't discuss their builds outside of these threads, and I can assure you, anecdotally, that it has come up in my own experience. All of that extra PMing would therefore have no provable impact on bias, particularly if bystanders are allowed to comment in the thread on the builds and create bias in that fashion.

Oooh, good point. I didn't think of that since I'm more engaged with other online communities.

Yeah, at that point, it might be time to give up mitigating bias, especially if people discuss their builds in other threads/with the judges on their own time prior to submitting. And I do agree bystanders providing pre-judging commentary is equally an issue (mitigate by having chair pm judges builds secretly, judges pm chair back with judgments, then posting builds and judgments). But at that point it's being more complex than it's worth.

[Kazudo]

True. If the judges are introduced via Chairperson by the moniker "Judge 1, Judge 2, and Judge 3", then after enough back and forth there could theoretically still form a bias.

Scratch the last post, we'll just keep it going. It's a game based around a game played for fun played for bragging rights. Not so serious, really.

As far as the whole notion of Build Stability goes, I originally fused it with "Use of Secret Ingredient" due to the necessity of some builds to have to "balance" the secret ingredients to make the build more stable and better. After all, you've got TWO secret ingredients that will (in foreseeable circumstances) contradict at times.

In this run, for example, Shadowdancer is a terrible option to advance sneak attack, especially when not receiving it through Rogue, so balance is key between the two to maximize both potentials. That may require giving up a level or three of Shadowdancer, or 2-4d6 of sneak attack potential. The notion is to reasonably maximize both secret ingredients while staying away from the Forbidden Ingredient. The "Build Stability" category seems to be the best way to make this happen. Perhaps, however, Build Stability in future events needs to have a 1-10 scale while Power and Originality stay 1-5, to put the emphasis there. If Judges in future events want to break that 1-10 scale down into Build Stability and UoSI and make a composite or whatever the case may be, then that'll work alright. Gotta learn as you go, right?

[sakuuya]

As far as the whole notion of Build Stability goes, I originally fused it with "Use of Secret Ingredient" due to the necessity of some builds to have to "balance" the secret ingredients to make the build more stable and better. After all, you've got TWO secret ingredients that will (in foreseeable circumstances) contradict at times.

In this run, for example, Shadowdancer is a terrible option to advance sneak attack, especially when not receiving it through Rogue, so balance is key between the two to maximize both potentials. That may require giving up a level or three of Shadowdancer, or 2-4d6 of sneak attack potential. The notion is to reasonably maximize both secret ingredients while staying away from the Forbidden Ingredient. The "Build Stability" category seems to be the best way to make this happen. Perhaps, however, Build Stability in future events needs to have a 1-10 scale while Power and Originality stay 1-5, to put the emphasis there. If Judges in future events want to break that 1-10 scale down into Build Stability and UoSI and make a composite or whatever the case may be, then that'll work alright. Gotta learn as you go, right?

What do you see as the benefit from having Build Stability be one oversized category instead of explicitly dividing it into elegance/UoSI or what have you? Is it just to give the judges more flexibility with what they focus on under the Build Stability umbrella? I'm just curious, please don't take this as criticism of your chairmanning or anything.

[Kazudo]

Actually you hit the nail on the head. It's all about giving the judges some leeway. The introduction of two complications from the standard ICOCitP formula would end up causing awkward judging on the premise that there would be multiple UoSI categories. Instead of having UoSI 1, UoSI 2, Failure to Use Secret Ingredient 3, etc., Build Stability collects them under one umbrella. Combined with "elegance" categories, it essentially represents balance within parameters. It says "Given that one used SI 1 and SI 2, but forsook SI 3, how stable is the build and are the SIs balanced within said stable build?"

It makes some sense to me. Maybe I'm not eloquent enough to vocalize why.

[sakuuya]

Actually you hit the nail on the head. It's all about giving the judges some leeway. The introduction of two complications from the standard ICOCitP formula would end up causing awkward judging on the premise that there would be multiple UoSI categories. Instead of having UoSI 1, UoSI 2, Failure to Use Secret Ingredient 3, etc., Build Stability collects them under one umbrella. Combined with "elegance" categories, it essentially represents balance within parameters. It says "Given that one used SI 1 and SI 2, but forsook SI 3, how stable is the build and are the SIs balanced within said stable build?"

It makes some sense to me. Maybe I'm not eloquent enough to vocalize why.

Or maybe I'm a little slow. Thanks for the explanation; trying to achieve some kind of balance between all the potentially-contradictory factors makes sense.

[dysprosium]

@dysprosium: I don't think you did anything wrong. I'm actually generally quite impressed with the cogency of the judging here; it is both far better than I expected and far better than I'd expect to get from the other site I'm on.

As for the Unrogue and the counterbias; I have no idea why you'd use that as an example, given that Kelia is in last place, and there are some odds that neither build is even mine :P . But perhaps. There also is an underdog effect :P

I apologize for coming off as sounding angry. I felt as though there was an implication there. I try my best to be as fair as possible.

As for picking the Unrogue, I wasn't really thinking anything about it other than it was not the highest scorer.

[Ikeren]

On a scale from 1-10 of sounding angry, you were at like, 1.4, tops. This is just a friendly discussion of the bizarre tricks our minds play on us, and what we can do about them, and whether it's worth the effort. I'm fine with the conclusion "Nope, it's not", especially when it comes to webforum things :P

On Build Stability/Use of Secret ingredients: I like dividing them, or making that category slightly larger. The last place build has stability (5/5?), but basically no secret ingredient (1d6 sneak + 1 shadowdancer level) (0.5/5?), while the second last place build has basically no stability (0/5?) (8 classes in first 10 levels, fractional BAB), but the highest secret ingredient submission (8d6/10d6 sneak attack, 10 shadowdancer levels) (5/5?). Some differentiation there seems relevant for clarity.

Making it a 10 point category and instructing judges to consider both might be worth it, or separating them.

[OMG PONIES]

On a scale from 1-10 of sounding angry, you were at like, 1.4, tops. This is just a friendly discussion of the bizarre tricks our minds play on us, and what we can do about them, and whether it's worth the effort. I'm fine with the conclusion "Nope, it's not", especially when it comes to webforum things :P

Yeah, but you only think that because we're all so damned good-looking. :smalltongue:

[Deadline]

Ok, all done! Here is my copy/pasted judging criteria from Iron Chef, hastily modified for Junkyard Wars! (which is to say, I crammed the last two category criteria together and called it a day).

Judging criteria:

I'm going with the rather standard 3 point baseline in each category (pulled from my Iron Chef rubric), adjusted up or down based on your dish choices. I'm going to judge dishes with the same sort of eye I would GM for them.

You may find a number of commonalities with other judges' criteria here, and that's because I'm a terrible, terrible plagiarist.

Originality


What is it that you've chosen for your dish? Is it surprising, does it do things I haven't seen before? Did you use something completely off-the-wall or unexpected? Did you use a well known trick in a new or different way? All of these things will generally warrant an increase to your score. Well known tricks (I dont' care if you invented it 2 years ago, it's still a 2 year old trick), expected elements, or using a well-known build will generally warrant a decrease in score. Using expected elements in your dish will generally warrant a decrease in score, unless those elements are required by the SI.

All of that said, the general rule of thumb for scoring well in this category is "do something new or fresh with your approach".

And now for the plagiarism. I liked mattie_p's "Baseline build" section so much, I'm stealing it. Word for word.

BASELINE BUILD: A build that steers clear of known cheese and standard build elements, but doesn't necessarily make me sit up and go "wow." Builds that involve new combinations or focus on unexpected elements will score higher here, while builds that utilize known cheese or that are pretty much stock builds will score lower.


Power


When shooting for power, the main focus is on how well you perform your intended role, how versatile you are with your various tricks, how solid your power is from 1-20, and what happens to you if some or all of your tricks are rendered irrelevant.

Spells are not the only measure of power, and perhaps more importantly, I'll be looking at your dish over its various level breakpoints to determine power. If you can't punch a hole in a wet paper bag from levels 1-19 but gain the power of a 20th level wizard at 20th level, you may get less of an increase than someone who had a solid power curve all the way to 20, assuming you both ended in a similar level of power at 20. As I said earlier, power will be a function of how well you perform your intended role. What tricks are you throwing out, how potent are they, and how do you handle hard counters to your tricks?

WBL Item dependent power will generally mean a decrease here. Everyone gets better with items, I'm interested in what your dish can do without them. That said, if you want to point out where a specific item would enhance one of your tricks beyond the obvious, feel free to point it out.

More plagiarism! Word for word save for an extra sentence at the end.

BASELINE BUILD: A build that can meaningfully contribute to a party in most CR-appropriate encounters. Builds that can't, either because their overall power is too low or because they only function in very specific situations, will score lower here. Builds that are particularly proficient or useful, or that can meaningfully contribute even in over-CR'd encounters, will score higher. Builds that maintain a solid power curve over their 1-20 progression will score higher here.


Build Stability


[Citation Needed] - Seriously, don't make me dig through books or guess at what minute detail you used from some obscure source. At the very least, please indicate what came from where. I'm generally familiar with the Completes, Core/SRD, and the Spell Compendium. Beyond that, it would be nice to have an indicator that "Black Blood of the Earth" is a feat from the Complete Guide to Big Trouble in Little China. Especially if this competition churns out 20+ entrants.

Like other judges, I'm not a huge fan of smashing multiple setting specific material together, UNLESS we are talking about something in the Planescape setting. Basically, if it's an obvious power grab that slaps the setting material in the face, you'll probably get points in power, but lose points here.

Did you qualify for everything you took? Does everything flow together well? Did you avoid random dips? Does your fluff justify anything that needs to be justified? These will all generally get you an increase.

Alignment shift shenanigans may result in a decrease here.

Using the ingredients as early as possible is generally looked favorably upon. When you make use of the ingredients may result in a score modification.

Your presentation is important here. Is everything clean and easy to read? Did you keep your fluff skirt length (this is not a prose contest)?

I mentioned it earlier, but it bears repeating. I'm judging these entries with the same eyes I'd use if I were GMing. So heavy cheese and questionable tricks may score points in originality and power, but those same tactics may cost you here. Since it has been mentioned multiple times in this thread, I'll go on the record as being one of those people who believe that when you don't meet the prerequisites of X, you no longer benefit from X. Feats, prestige classes, etc. And don't try to get smug and ask me what happens to Dragon Disciples with the capstone, I'll do the same thing I'd do at my table - tell you they still work fine and throw a book at your head.

That said, I'm not opposed to your dish being awesome, just to questionable interpretations of the rules. Pure RAW leaves a hilariously unplayable game, so breaking your character with RAW will cost you here (and remember that power can only go to a maximum of 5). As time goes on, I'll try to list out in my future criteria any things that come up in which I'll side against, but given the enormous amount of options out there, I'll only be able to add to this list as I come across them.

Plagiarism Parrot says that this baseline build paragraph is awesome! Raaawwwk!

BASELINE BUILD: A build that you can pick up and walk over to almost any table, and it won't raise any eyebrows. Builds that are DM-dependent or questionable rules-wise will score lower here, as will builds that are clunky and messy. Builds that are a thing of beauty will score higher here - ones that make even the stuffiest DM sit up and say, hey, that's awesome, I'd love to have you in our group.

First and foremost, if you don't qualify for the ingredients, you get a 1 here (1 is the minimum score in a category, right?). Make sure your dish qualifies for the ingredients.

For the most part, the way to score high here is to make sure your dish really embodies the ingredients. Have you used all parts of the ingredients to good effect? Did you really use the ingredient's abilities, or just "get" them? As an example, Talon of Tiamat gains an immunity to a chosen element at a certain level. Had that been one of the ingredients, did you find a way to use that other than, "I took immunity to fire because it's the most common element."? Finding a way to showcase all parts of the ingredients in an interesting manner will be the path to scoring highly here. Make the ingredients the focus of your dish, and enhance it. If you overpower the ingredients with abilities or features from other elements, I'm going to ask the question, "Why did you use the ingredients, instead of more of that?" That question will cost you points.

Be sure to read the fluff for the ingredients, because that will be guiding my judgment when I look at these entries. Does your dish feel like the ingredients?

Plagiarizers gonna plagiarize.

BASELINE BUILD: A build that manages to use the secret ingredient without crying out to me, "HEY, this is only here because of a stupid contest, OK!" Builds that utilize all of the SI's abilities to good effect, and who really sell the idea that only the SI would have worked here, will score higher. Builds that don't really get any use out of the class features or pre-reqs, or that would really obviously just do better with another option, will score lower.



Human is high on the list of expected races for me, but I am otherwise going to curb my usual inclination to put a small list of classes that I would expect to see (given that this is Junkyard's maiden voyage, I want to be a little nice), so pretty much anything goes and won't take a big hit to originality. Darkstalker is practically required, so I won't be marking down originality for including it.

Keep in mind that my comments aren't meant to be mean, just critical. Also, I'm more used to Iron Chef, so keep in that in mind when you see my odd food-related comments. Any references to the SI are referring to the two ingredients in this competition.

Ayesha - 10

Originality: 4.25
Yay! Marrulurk! I've wanted to use one of these little guys for a while now and just haven't had a chance to do so. A scout who is cut off from her fellows and is forced to survive in a microcosm that has persisted for years in a sunken underground pyramid? Hah, what a way to include shadows in a desert themed environment! Scorpion Heritor is neat and flavorful, and caught me by surprise. The inclusion of Able Sniper and Woodland Archer are interesting and you really do use them well. The inclusion of Fighter levels was really bland, and left an unsatisfying taste. I get that you took it for the feats, but still.

Power: 3
Ayesha is a sniper. While she is a good sniper, she has a few issues. Let's look at the good stuff first. She is a world-class sneak, her racial bonus to Hide and Move Silent in conjunction with her size, naturally awesome Dex, Darkstalker feat and Hide in Plain Sight ability means she can hide with the best of them. She's got good sneak attack damage with 6d6 and Craven. She has some decent utility with Scorpion Form, Shadow Jump and Shadow Illusion, albeit limited. Her UMD score really lets her shine in the versatility department, as long as she's got the items to make use of it. Poison Use is a solid ability to eek out some extra offensive capability. Her ability to avoid fights is legendary, but I'm not certain how powerful that is. Her shadow companion, while fragile, is still an excellent way to augment her scouting ability (which is mostly non-existant until far too late in her career to be reliably useful). At level 20, Ayesha can fairly reliably detect when someone is sneaking up on her (assuming they are touching the ground), but her inability to capitalize on that information means that this is, at best, a novel ability rather than a powerful one. Scorpion's Resolve gives her Will save a nice boost. Scorpion's Instinct is a nice little boost to get for free. Defensive Roll, Uncanny Dodge and Evasion are solid defensive abilities, and the Marrulurk chassis provides a few minor defensive bumps. Lastly, her natural ability score advantage is considerable.

So, let's look at some things that she doesn't do well. The dustbin of wasted abilities is nearly overflowing with Death Attack, Nauseating Breath, Darkvision redundancy, Rapid Shot (you can't use it with the sniping action), shadow jump, etc. She has no way of reliably dealing with foes who are immune to precision damage. Equivalent level sneaks (and even vastly lower level ones) can keep hidden from her (she has no ranks in Spot!). Her ability to detect them sneaking up on her isn't terribly relevant if they can't find her, but she can't really engage them either if she can't find them. That said, if someone does sneak up on her, she still suffers the miss chance, and she already has uncanny dodge as a defensive measure, so the feat really doesn't do much more than pinpoint the square they are in. Flying foes look like they would give her some trouble. Ayesha will struggle to remain relevant in the damage game at higher levels when utilizing her trick, because she only gets to take a single shot every round. Missing out on Improved Evasion hurts.

So, how do you stack up to the typical party Skirmisher (the role Ayesha would presumably fill in a party)? Well, you've got sneaking, UMD and sneak attack, but that's about it. She's not a skill monkey, or a face, or really anything other than really sneaky. You've made a one-trick pony, and have left everything else behind.

Build Stability: 2.75
The build is well sourced, and qualifies for everything. It was also easy to read and was well organized. You have one mistake I noticed, Marrulurks have Rapid Shot (which requires a full attack) as a bonus feat, not Manyshot. The build flows reasonably well, but has a pretty solid hiccup for your Fighter dip. This really throws things off for me. I know you did it for the feats, but it just feels very out of place in an otherwise wonderfully flavorful build. I've got to ask, why did you choose to not go with more Shadowdancer levels instead of Scorpion Heritor levels? You don't wind up using most of the abilities you get from Scorpion Heritor (or Shadowdancer for that matter), and appear to have done it solely to garner more sneak attack dice. You did well getting a good number of sneak attack dice, and even made some effort to improve it (Craven and sniping), but you did so at the expense of the other ingredient, the Shadowdancer. You only wind up using Hide in Plain Sight, Evasion, and Uncanny Dodge from Shadowdancer. Shadowdancer feels like an afterthought in this build. You might have been better off with a 4/10 split rather than 8/6 split for Scorpion Heritor/Shadowdancer levels. You would have missed out on 2d6 sneak attack dice in exchange for the versatility offered by extra Shadowdancer levels. You also make no use of Dodge, Mobility, and Combat Reflexes (which are Shadowdancer prerequisites), you just set those three feats on fire. You wind up trying to mash together the two ingredients, and neither ingredient does very well as a result.

Overall, I really liked the theme of this build, and it could see play at any table where I was the DM.


The Unrogue - 10.75

Originality: 3.75
Good gravy that's a lot of classes. I had to look Justicar of Taiia up, so it was definitely unexpected. You also managed to pull a few neat tricks to hit more sneak attack that I thought folks would be able to swing! Staggering Strike is a good way to enhance sneak attacks. I liked seeing the Thug Sneak Attack Fighter variant. Human is the only bland thing about this build. Well that, and you built a rogue without building a rogue!

Power: 4
First and foremost, you've got 10d6 of sneak attack! And you make good use of it through multiple attacks, Staggering Strike, and a couple of maneuvers that let you pull it off without help from a party member. It's a pity that Justicar of Taiia and Assassin have their own spell lists, otherwise you could add Grave Strike and Golem Strike to your bag of tricks. You are a good sneak, infiltrator, pseudo-face, and half of a good scout. You've got a few useful arcane spells from Assassin, and you've got maneuvers that are useful in-combat and out of combat. Defensively you've got all the benefits that Shadowdancer provides, and your fantastic reflex save makes sure that Evasion gets good use. You've got some nice mobility with Shadow Jaunt. Your Shadow companion from Shadowdancer is full strength, but you don't seem to use it for much of anything (maybe a flanking partner?).

So, let's look at the bad. Strapping your BAB on a chassis that two-weapon fights with mediocre strength is a recipe for constant missing. You do take some steps to correct this with your maneuvers (which let you flank more frequently, or deny dex by being invisible), but it's still a shaky proposition. Your Justicar of Taiia spells are pretty much all useless. Flying foes are going to give you trouble, and you have no way of dealing with things that are immune to your sneak attack dice.

You've got a jump in power early on, and a fairly minimal increase in offensive ability after that. Shadowdancer is nicely used to round out your versatility. Against the party Skirmisher/Scout, you do well offensively, and ok out of combat.

Build Stability: 3
Dat base attack bonus. You use an alternate system for calculating it, and that's bad. But it comes with sneak attack sprinkles, which is good. But you get redipulous, and that's bad. The worst part about this is that you could just take Shadowdancer levels earlier and get Justicar of Taiia and Ronin later when you meet the BAB, which would save you the slight ding for using an alternate system for BAB calculation. You squeeze a non-canon specific monotheistic deity into the Forgotten Realms settings, which will likely grate on some DMs. You pretty much negate the Shadow Jump feature of Shadowdancer by taking Shadow Jaunt. The layout of your entry was crazy hard to read, and while you sourced some of your stuff, it was kind of hard to find. You don't make any effort to really use much of the Shadowdancer ingredient (you set the three entry feats on fire), but despite that, you managed to make a build with 10d6 sneak attack and 10 levels of Shadowdancer.

You manage to qualify for everything (assuming you either use the variant BAB calculation, or shuffle Justicar of Taiia and Ronin levels to later in the build). You get a lot of sneak attack dice, but don't find a way to use it against all enemies, which really would have picked up some of the slack from letting many of the Shadowdancer abilities just sort of sit there.

Overall, this build has some mechanically powerful stuff, and some neat tricks, but all that blood those dips are going to make more than one DM question whether or not to allow it at their table.


Kelia the Souldancer - 8.75

Originality: 3.5
A soul-powered streetfighter turned sniper who spits death? That's pretty nifty. I do likes me some Incarnum, but I fear you may have missed the point for this competition. Cobra Strike Monk was an interesting way to pick up two of the required entry feats for Shadowdancer, and Thug Sneak Attack Fighter is a solid source for sneak attack. Human was expected.

Power: 3.75
You are a good scout and sneak, and you spit horrible acid at your foes. You've got some great versatility with your souldmelds and a reasonable UMD score (assuming you have the items to take advantage of it). Dissolving Spittle gives you a solid option against foes that are immune to sneak attack. Craven and Indigo Strike pump up what little sneak attack you have. Binding Dissolving Spittle to your throat chakra really gives you a damage boost.

Your main trick, sniping, is hard for you to maintain. Against anything with a reasonable spot skill, you will be reduced to just using Dissolving Spittle without sneak attack after your first shot. Fellmist Robe can help with this a little, but it's disappointing to see this called out as the main tactic, but see no real support for it aside from a maxed hide skill. You do sniping worse than the other build here that does it, but your damage is higher and more reliable. Unfortunately, your BAB pretty much requires you to rely on your one trick to be effective in combat, which is unfortunate.

How do you stack up to a party Skirmisher? Pretty well, actually. You've got reliable ranged damage (albeit limited to 30 feet), good sneaking ability, and good scouting ability. You will have difficulty with flying foes (unless they are nice and stay within 30 feet).

Build Stability: 1.5
This is a tasty Incarnate build, but it isn't what we ordered. We ordered Shadowdancer with Sneak Attack. The two ingredients for this challenge are not integral, or even very useful, to this build. WHY ARE THEY HERE? You make some effort to improve your tiny sneak attack damage, but have no reliable way of delivering it. You may as well have not bothered to even include Shadowdancer, as you don't provide any real use for it (and you set the entry feats on fire). It's an Incarnate Dissolving Spittle build with +1d6 of sneak attack and a level of Shadowdancer tacked on "just because". The build is layed out well enough, but nothing is sourced. You qualify for everything you take.

Overall, this build feels like it's in the wrong competition.


Blaine Night the Six-Fingered - 11.5

Originality: 3.5
I thought for sure we'd see more shadowpouncers, but it looks like you are the only one! Telflammar Shadowlord is natural awesomesauce. Binding Andromalius was a fun way to pick up sneak attack, and I believe it qualifies based on the chairman's ruling. Human was expected, but I'm surprised to see no Darkstalker. That feat seems almost mandatory to anyone who is going to be sneaking. Gnomish Quickrazors and Iaijutsu Focus are well known cheese. A trapfinding ranger was neat. The fighter levels were bland.

Power: 4.25
Well, you do well here. You are a two-weapon fighter with the ability to make several full attacks in a round (at a decent BAB). You've got low sneak attack dice, but you augment it with Craven, and if you can catch your foe flat-footed, you can drop quite a bit of extra damage from Iaijutsu and quickrazors. You are a good sneak, good scout (especially with Shadowsight and See Invisibility at will!), and can even fulfill the trapfinding duties of a rogue! Shadow Blur, Improved Uncanny Dodge, and Evasion all help you in the defense department. You have some great utility with your spells from Shadowlord, Shadow Walk, and you've got pretty much everything from Shadowdancer.

You've got a couple of issues though. Your sneaking suffers a bit without Darkstalker. Your Improved Two-weapon fighting is item dependent (you are relying on an item to grant you the Dex you need to qualify for the feat). Iaijutsu focus is situational, as you have no way of reliably making your foes flat-footed. And you are going to be suffering a -1 to attack rolls, saving throws, and checks most of the time you are bound to Andromalius, unless you succeed on your binding check (which requires you to roll a 16+) or refrain from theft and looting dead bodies. You don't have a reliable way of dealing sneak attack damage (aside from a couple castings of Improved Invisibility), but multiple full attacks in a round goes a long way to dealing with foes who are immune to sneak attack.

You appear to have gone the Skirmisher/Trapfinder role, but you can also double as a reasonably durable frontliner if necessary. So how do you stack up? You've got damage handled, are an excellent scout, a good sneak, and a trapfinder. You've got fantastic utility and a solid level of power.

Build Stability: 3.75
You really pack in and enhance Shadowdancer here. You use almost all parts of that buffalo, with the exception of Improved Evasion (which you don't get), and Darkvision (which is redundant with and worse than Shadowsight). Unlike everyone else, you actually used some of the entry feats (albeit only to qualify for Shadowlord). You've got sneak attack that you enhance a bit with Craven, but even then it's more of an afterthought to this build than anything else. The build actually flows ok, and everything is sourced. It was easy to read and follow, and I your variant sections had some solid insights. You qualify for everything except for Improved Two-weapon fighting, and I did not include consideration of that feat in your power score (or rather, the points I'd give for using it would be negated by the points I'd take away for being item dependent). I liked the use of Binding to pick up sneak attack, but it does have an issue which I pointed out in power.

I think you may have missed something in regards to your reading of the Shadow Jump ability from Telflammar Shadowlord. It states that if you already have Shadow Jump (such as from Shadowdancer), the Shadowlord Shadow Jump ability confers no additional benefit. Without that text, you might be correct in your RAW interpretation. It's not hugely relevant, as you still have enough Shadow Jump to drop pounces in 4 encounters per day.

Overall, I really liked this build. I'd be happy to see it at my table.


So there you have it. Let the wailing and gnashing of teeth commence! :smallbiggrin:

[sakuuya]

Hooray, more judging! Thanks for the comments! Though I think you should replace all your food references with...engineering references? I've never actually seen Junkyard Wars.

Also, what would your list of expected classes have been? I mean, I'm fine with not getting marked down for 'em, but I'd be interested to know what you came in expecting.

[Deadline]

Also, what would your list of expected classes have been? I mean, I'm fine with not getting marked down for 'em, but I'd be interested to know what you came in expecting.

Spellthief was really the only one on my list. I wouldn't have docked anyone points for using it, but as it seemed to me to be the go-to source for base class sneak attack aside from the rogue, I wouldn't have considered it anything special with regards to Originality.

[NoACWarrior]

For me I felt spellthief was a common way to get some levels of sneak attack, but at the same rate, there were many PrCs and base classes you could do a simple dip into (1 level) to get the +1d6, with spell thief offering you very little sneak dice for the level. In the end I didn't see many expected classes other than in unrouge - which got points because of the wonkiness of the base class choices.

The issues I found while trying to build from spelltheif was that their abilities are just meh if they multiclass, thats what made me decide to not enter.

As was from my afterword, I fully expected at least one or two charger builds with ronnin, a nova build with some type of contingency action, or some kind of lockdown. However, its funny that none of the builds used some of my expected roles, with the builds better utilizing hide than my abandoned build could.

[Ikeren]

I'm wondering how many more judges we expect?

[sakuuya]

Somewhere between 0 and 2, I think. OMG_Ponies said he might, and Gwachitallemall signed up way back on the first page. No idea whether either of them are actually planning to go through with it, but I want them both to, just so we can have more judges than contestants. :smallbiggrin:

[dysprosium]

As was from my afterword, I fully expected at least one or two charger builds with ronnin, a nova build with some type of contingency action, or some kind of lockdown. However, its funny that none of the builds used some of my expected roles, with the builds better utilizing hide than my abandoned build could.

This is why I love all of these build competitions. There are so many little gems that we can find from the entries. I know over the past year I have been involved with the Playground I have learned a lot and learned to look at things a different way than I had been used to. And I've met some cool people along the way!

[Kazudo]

You'll recall, Dysprosium, I actually gave a speech saying the same thing when I broke into the foray a few months ago and promptly had a huge glob of life fall on me from the passing blue bird of happiness overhead.

[Kazudo]

Double posting and all, boo on me.

Do we have any other prospective judges for the moment? Not that that'll close the polls any faster if not.

[OMG PONIES]

Double posting and all, boo on me.

Do we have any other prospective judges for the moment? Not that that'll close the polls any faster if not.

I may still get in some scores here; the lower number of entries and extra few days before the deadline make it more feasible here than in the standard ICO.

[Kazudo]

I actually really, really like the notion of a slimmer number of entrants and a larger number of judges. The thing that would be most afraid of is that given a significantly differing ratio of judging and builds (benefiting judging) with all builds being ideally different, the average of scores for the builds would approach the same number.

[Sian]

Given that IC: Zenth Cenobyte had 8 builds and 5 jugdes and wasn't averaging towards similar scores, i'm not sure how realistic that concern is

[sakuuya]

I actually really, really like the notion of a slimmer number of entrants and a larger number of judges. The thing that would be most afraid of is that given a significantly differing ratio of judging and builds (benefiting judging) with all builds being ideally different, the average of scores for the builds would approach the same number.

I think this is something to worry about only if it starts to become an issue. Right now we've got 4 builds and 3 judges, and the scores aren't really converging. Plus, next round you're going to make Build Stability a 10-point category, right? Having more possible points seems like it'd make score convergence less likely.

Since I had to do this math anyway to write this post, here's a continuation of Ikeren's aggregations from page 5, updated to include Deadline's scores:

Build 1: 12/15, 13/15, 10/15 = 35/45
Build 2: 10.5/15, 9/15, 10.75/15 = 30.25/45
Build 3: 10.5/15, 8.5/15, 8.75/15 = 27.75/45
Build 4: 12/15, 9.75/15, 11.5/15 = 33.25/45

Overall, these seem less similar than when there were only two scores per build. There's less of an obvious front-runner, but more space, on average, between each score.

If scores DO start to get really similar, either in this challenge or future ones, then it might be worth restricting the judge-to-contestant ratio, but I agree with Sian that it doesn't seem likely enough to warrant preemptive action.

[Ikeren]

I'm more concerned about the Iron Chef where nobody has judged at all :P

[Seerow]

When is the deadline for judging? Just curious how long before this is over, and can't seem to find that information.


Edit: nevermind, the OP clearly says 11:59pm April 17th, so another 36 hours give or take.

[Ikeren]

GMT, eh? I think that means judging is closed.

[Kazudo]

Alright! The polls are closed, and here are your winners!

In 1st place, we have Sakuuya's Ayesha taking home the Gold!
In 2nd place, we have Seerow's Blaine Night the Six-Fingered taking home the Silver!
In 3rd place, we have Ikeren's unnamed but lovingly titled Unrogue taking home the Bronze!
And garnering the Honorable Mention this round is Telonius' Kelia!

The next competition will be up in a few hours once I've figured out 100% what I'm going to make of it!

Edit: New Competition is up! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?342896-Junkyard-Wars-in-the-Playground-II)

[sakuuya]

...

:redface:

Thanks a bunch, and congrats to everybody else!

[Ikeren]

Now that this is finished, some brief commentary on judging:
@Dys:
he story may write itself but I would like a little more of it. You have a lot of non specific references to different things without solidly placing them anywhere. I think your intent was to allow someone to take your idea and insert it into their own campaign seamlessly but comes across as “I didn’t feel like fleshing out everything.”

It was mostly a product of being new to these competitions. I didn't realize the degree of fluff was as mandatory as it was (indeed, my iron chef entry lost a full point for lack of fluff).


That makes nearly the entire Shadowdancer part of the build “tacked on” especially since this component does not increase sneak attack and that was what your first ten levels were devoted to.

This part confuses me, because if the ingredients are sneak attack + shadowdancer, isn't it inevitable that some portion of levels will maximize one, and some portion of levels will maximize the other? You just didn't like how they were divided first 10/last 10? Would you have preferred Sneak attack 7/Shadowdancer 10/Sneak attack +3?

I also think it's odd the degree to which using the SI didn't matter in your scoring: a person with 1d6 sneak attack and 1 level shadowdancer ended up only a half point behind me. I guess I expected the required part of the competition to matter a fair bit more in the scoring.

But you are 100% that the Big Dipper (or little dipper? since most of the dips are small) would have been a better name --- I actually forgot to name this entry :smallsmile: . You can clearly see the degree I care about the fluff part of the competition in that...

@Deadline


Dat base attack bonus. You use an alternate system for calculating it, and that's bad. But it comes with sneak attack sprinkles, which is good. But you get redipulous, and that's bad. The worst part about this is that you could just take Shadowdancer levels earlier and get Justicar of Taiia and Ronin later when you meet the BAB, which would save you the slight ding for using an alternate system for BAB calculation.

I seriously considered putting Justicar and Ronin at the end, but I actually thought the build looked cleaner with the sneak attack all at the front. Also, without using fractional BAB, this would have finished at +11/+6/+1, which I guess could be fine and I would have just talked about the Skillful Weapon Enhancement.

Anyways, that was loads of fun and super interesting and entertaining! Thank you very much for the judging and feedback, and the 3rd place. I'll start working on the second one (once I finish my Zinc Saucier entry).

[Deadline]

@Deadline


I seriously considered putting Justicar and Ronin at the end, but I actually thought the build looked cleaner with the sneak attack all at the front. Also, without using fractional BAB, this would have finished at +11/+6/+1, which I guess could be fine and I would have just talked about the Skillful Weapon Enhancement.

Anyways, that was loads of fun and super interesting and entertaining! Thank you very much for the judging and feedback, and the 3rd place. I'll start working on the second one (once I finish my Zinc Saucier entry).

Your BAB would still have been in the toilet, not much to be done about that with all that dipping. I'd like to point out that your build was one of the most powerful (Blaine edged you out in that category with the ability to make multiple full attacks per round - action economy manipulation is potent).

I can't speak to fluff "requirements" here in Junkyard Wars, but over in Iron Chef it is essentially your way to tie all the various bits and bobs together into a cohesive build (it is a way to enhance your presentation). Without it, you could have some really potent combos, but it might just feel thrown together. So it isn't required, but not taking advantage of the opportunity to polish your presentation is tantamount to just throwing food slapdash onto a plate in the real Iron Chef competition. It might taste absolutely delicious and be incredibly healthy for you, but if it looks like dogfood, no one will eat it.

[Ikeren]

The Skillful Weapon Enhancement is +1 and increases BAB to 3/4ths.


Also, relevant:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/04/AR2007040401721.html

Joshua Bell, a prodigy violinist, played in the (New York, I think? I saw this article years ago, don't quite have time to reread) Metro on a 3.5 million dollar violin, playing some difficult and beautiful Bach pieces...and no one noticed.

[justiceforall]

So a question for you judgy types:

Assuming: Monk 5/Assassin x/Shadowdancer x, Sun School feat, idea being you hide in plain sight observing them for three rounds, then shadow step up to them and death attack them with sun school. I believe it satisfies the various preconditions of the contest.

How does this score as a generic kind of overview? I'm aware it uses a low power class/es and an ability (death attack) that most people don't rate for optimisation, but does it gain points back for simplicity, and the fact that noone else would use the monk? Do you award bonus points because this build would only use Core + Complete Warrior?

So next sub-question, assume I go and jam all the stuff on it to max out death attack. Save reducers, ambush feats, etc. That uses a lot more books, but increases the power. Would this be a zero sum for scoring? Or does one win out?


I'm aware judging uses a lot of fiat (and has to), but I'm curious to see how people would have approached the scoring.

[Ikeren]

I'm not a judge and am a bit new here, but if you went Assassin 5/Shadowdancer 10:

Originality: Yep, seems reasonably original. Above average but not high
Power: DC 15+int death attack, 3/4th's BAB, a single 3rd level spell and 3d6 sneak attack --- I guess it would depend on feats a bit, but probably below average
Build Stability (which in the next version is Elegance and Use of Secret Ingredient): seems stable enough (lawful evil, minimal classes). The core trick probably doesn't work ("After using this spell, you can’t take any other actions until your next turn." on Dimension door) because teleporting next to someone is pretty much the definition of threatening (unless you're invisible + they can't see invis, but that still limits it substantially). But you've only 3d6 sneak attack, which I guess I'd call barely enough.

Probably 9-12/15 or 13-15/20



So next sub-question, assume I go and jam all the stuff on it to max out death attack. Save reducers, ambush feats, etc. That uses a lot more books, but increases the power. Would this be a zero sum for scoring? Or does one win out?

Selecting good feats from Complete adventurer, PHB2, etcetera; normal, expected books, that increased power, would produce a higher score. I doubt it'd be zero-sum. People seem to only take off points for using settings books (conflicting) or really obscure stuff, and sometimes not even that.

[justiceforall]

The core trick probably doesn't work ("After using this spell, you can’t take any other actions until your next turn." on Dimension door) because teleporting next to someone is pretty much the definition of threatening (unless you're invisible + they can't see invis, but that still limits it substantially)

I'd have thought the Sun School feat would have covered this:

"Flash of Sunset: To use this maneuver, you must move adjacent to a foe instantaneously, as with a dimension door spell or the monk's abundant step class feature. If you do so, you can immediately make a single attack at your highest attack bonus against that foe."

Wouldn't shadow jump satisfy that?

"At 4th level, a shadowdancer gains the ability to travel between shadows as if by means of a dimension door spell"

Assuming there's any light at all, you can shadow step into their shadow from your shadow, then death attack them in the same round?

[Ikeren]

Ah, sorry, didn't look up the feat.

Alright, that seems valid. Going to need to put some serious work into boosting the save DC from 15+int, or going to need to drop Shadowdancer levels, at which point you're looking at a pretty standard power-versus-SI trade off, but seems like a decent build. Should have submitted it

[dysprosium]

Now that this is finished, some brief commentary on judging:
@Dys:

It was mostly a product of being new to these competitions. I didn't realize the degree of fluff was as mandatory as it was (indeed, my iron chef entry lost a full point for lack of fluff).

This part confuses me, because if the ingredients are sneak attack + shadowdancer, isn't it inevitable that some portion of levels will maximize one, and some portion of levels will maximize the other? You just didn't like how they were divided first 10/last 10? Would you have preferred Sneak attack 7/Shadowdancer 10/Sneak attack +3?

I also think it's odd the degree to which using the SI didn't matter in your scoring: a person with 1d6 sneak attack and 1 level shadowdancer ended up only a half point behind me. I guess I expected the required part of the competition to matter a fair bit more in the scoring.

But you are 100% that the Big Dipper (or little dipper? since most of the dips are small) would have been a better name --- I actually forgot to name this entry :smallsmile: . You can clearly see the degree I care about the fluff part of the competition in that...

Sorry I did not respond sooner, Easter weekend with the kids means no Playground for me!

Fluff isn't even mandatory for IC just like here but I guess I just like to see a good story. My first IC entry (back in Bladesinger) got dinged for not having enough story too. In your case I just wanted "more" for lack of a better term. I think the best fluffs are the ones that really tie the whole thing together. I hope that makes sense.

For the judging of the Build Stability: I will admit that I am more used to judging competitions with four categories and since BUild Stability was billed as combining Elegance and Use of Ingredient together, my approach was to make each half of the category worth 2.5 to add up to 5. Your score gave you higher points for the Ingredient side for massive use of sneak attack and Shadowdancer but was dinged for the Elegance parts. In a similar vein the other build scored better in the Elegance side and was dinged for the Use of Ingredient side.

Did you have a name planned for your build? For me the names can be the hardest part of making a character. I have plenty of builds that I have made but still have no idea what to name them . . .

[Ikeren]

Yep, fair enough on all that.


Did you have a name planned for your build? For me the names can be the hardest part of making a character. I have plenty of builds that I have made but still have no idea what to name them . . .

Nope! I didn't even think about it. My next bunch are named and fluffed appropriately, but some of them might be terrible.

That being said, I heard you guys like non-sequitor puns.

[justiceforall]

Should have submitted it

Heh, yeah. But unfortunately due to the forum downtime I ran out of time to do a proper job of the submission when the forums came back up and I realised I had 18 hours left to submit on a work day.

Thanks for responding on the judging questions.