What are the most important defenses in the game?

[gorilla-turtle]

I wish to create a character that has access to as many defenses as possible. I know I need to seek the following:

-A High Touch Armor Class,
-Miss Chances,
-Flight,
-Spell Resistance,
-High Saving Throws,
-Mind Blank,
-Freedom of Movement,
-Immunity to Instant Death Abilities,
-Improved Evasion,
-Improved Mettle,

-High Amounts of Evasive Skills (Bluff, Disguise, Hide, Move Silently, so on),
-Non-Detection Abilities (Invisibility or better),
-Contingencies,
-Instantaneous Misdirection Abilities (wings of cover, celerity + teleportation),
-Antimagic that does not interfere with other abilities or defenses,
-High Initiative,

-High Resistance to Dispelling Magic,
-Counter-Spelling,

-And High Hit-points.

Are there any other obvious standouts that I should consider gaining access to?

[Slipperychicken]

A good Disguise/Stealth/Bluff check is one of the best defenses you can get. If your enemy can't find you (or better yet, doesn't know who you are), he can't hurt you no matter how high his attack bonus is.

Along that line, Superior Invisibility (Complete Arcane, Sorc/Wiz 9) goes a long way toward hiding you, but the Vecna-Blooded template (from MM 5) really takes the cake: it makes you basically impossible to find or notice.

[cakellene]

Is there any option for defeating no save spells? (They're my biggest pet peeve about game.)

[Banaticus]

Many no save spells require that you be touched -- get your touch AC up as high as you can. Set up permanent contingency spells. "If a save which cannot be resisted is targetted on me and successfully cast, teleport me to X." Where X should hopefully be far enough away to be out of range. Then the contingency should act between casting and when you're hit.

[Deophaun]

Is there any option for defeating no save spells? (They're my biggest pet peeve about game.)
Anything that blocks LoE, like wings of cover or abrupt jaunting behind total cover.

[Falcon X]

I once had a kobald rogue with rediculously high hide checks combined with Spring Attack and Hide in plain sight.
Enemy could never find him, and I'd just pop around every turn hitting with Sneak Attack. Felt completely broken, but I had fun.

[Slipperychicken]

Is there any option for defeating no save spells? (They're my biggest pet peeve about game.)

Spell Resistance and antimagic typically do this, and are effective in conjunction with the defenses listed in the OP.

Antimagic is best used with Initiate of Mystra feat, or some other means of using magic inside an AMF. This stacks the field heavily in favor of you, unless the enemy also has ways to ignore/counter AMFs, or is dropping Disjunctions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesDisjunction.htm) on you*. Even foes who don't rely on magic will have a hard time bypassing your other defenses.


*The only ways I can think of to mitigate Disjunction are to:

GTFO the moment someone starts casting it, removing yourself from range. Later, return to the caster, who has just wasted a spell.
Interrupt the casting (ideally by putting antimagic over the caster so the spell can't work, perhaps by teleporting to the target while AMF'd). Interrupting the Verbal component could also work (perhaps via Craft Contingent Silence?).
Occupy the caster's square, so that targeting you means he also targets himself, unless he happens to have the Extraordinary Spell Aim feat. This is extremely risky and should only be used a last resort.
Stack so many overlapping AMFs that it's unlikely to end all of them, since any effects inside an AMF which survives Disjunction are unaffected (enemy can overcome this by achieving CL 100, giving a 100% chance to end any AMF in the spell's area). The spell's chance to break through every single AMF in its area is given by the following formula (let C = caster level of the disjunction spell, and N = number of AMFs) = (C/100)^N

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Necessary Magic Item Effects (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851) does a pretty good job of listing everything you should get, most of which is very affordable in the early to mid levels.

[TuggyNE]

*The only ways I can think of to mitigate Disjunction are to:

GTFO the moment someone starts casting it, removing yourself from range. Later, return to the caster, who has just wasted a spell.
Interrupt the casting (ideally by putting antimagic over the caster so the spell can't work, perhaps by teleporting to the target while AMF'd). Interrupting the Verbal component could also work (perhaps via Craft Contingent Silence?).
Occupy the caster's square, so that targeting you means he also targets himself, unless he happens to have the Extraordinary Spell Aim feat. This is extremely risky and should only be used a last resort.
Stack so many overlapping AMFs that it's unlikely to end all of them, since any effects inside an AMF which survives Disjunction are unaffected (enemy can overcome this by achieving CL 100, giving a 100% chance to end any AMF in the spell's area). The spell's chance to break through every single AMF in its area is given by the following formula (let C = caster level of the disjunction spell, and N = number of AMFs) = (C/100)^N


In addition, using wings of cover is 100% effective, since it blocks LoE for that crucial moment. Weird, but there it is.

[Incorrect]

Initiative.
You win it, or you die.

[Jeff the Green]

The other major standouts are incorporeality and ethereality. They also make it hard for you to do anything useful, though.

[Brookshw]

Good list. I'd add poison, crits and exhaustion protection but the latter doesn't come up too often.

[Fouredged Sword]

Miss chance and high saves. There are no-save just lose spells, but you can pick up specific immunities to resist those. A good miss chance and high saves will cover 90% of what gets thrown at you.

[gorilla-turtle]

@ SlipperyChicken; One would think that spells might cut directly through attempts at subterfuge through skills, but noted. Skills could be useful combined with other anti-spell defenses.

@ cakellene; What spells exist that ignore all of Spell Resistance, Saving Throws, and Touch Armor Class? Baring one ridiculously broken off-brand feat, I have never seen a spell that simply makes whomever it targets automatically lose.

@ Banaticus; while the wording of that particular contingency might have a few errors, contingencies are indeed an excellent defense.

@ Deophan; noted.

@ Slipperychicken; Antimagic is a good one I forgot.

@ Biffoniacus_Furiou; that was where I first started getting ideas.

@ TuggyNE; since Disjunction is a Burst which affects an area, it seems from my reading that Wings of Cover is entirely useless against it alone, since it would only provide a reflex save bonus, which does not help against the will save.

@ Incorrect; while I disagree with the idea of your point, I can not deny the validity of it.

@ Jeff The Green; I lack experience with Etherealness, but in both cases I feel the primary benefits of them can be gained in other ways with a bit of effort.

@ Brookshw; I can not think of any poisons that are not delivered through a means that would not allow a save or would not require at least a touch attack. The worst save I could find would be a DC 54 Fortitude save. Critical hits likewise are a nonfactor if one can not be hit in the first place due to armor class, though they are more common. I am not so sure on how many ways exhaustion can be forced onto a character that would not go through a different defense.

@ FourEdgedSword; miss chances and high saves were at the top of this list before you even posted. Though I am curious what spells allow for no response of any kind.

[cakellene]

I wasn't saying a lot of spells ignore all magical defenses, was just griping about the mere existence of any no save spells at all.

[gorilla-turtle]

What would such a spell be, if you do not mind answering my curiosity. I honestly do not know of any such spell. Even Wish allows for spell resistance, for example, and many epic spells allow for saves and spell resistance.

[Blkmge]

The biggest stick you can afford, and the fastest movement you can manage.

[TuggyNE]

@ TuggyNE; since Disjunction is a Burst which affects an area, it seems from my reading that Wings of Cover is entirely useless against it alone, since it would only provide a reflex save bonus, which does not help against the will save.

Since it blocks line of effect, it should work fine, I think.
A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, even including creatures that you can’t see. It can’t affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don’t extend around corners).

[Jeff the Green]

What would such a spell be, if you do not mind answering my curiosity. I honestly do not know of any such spell. Even Wish allows for spell resistance, for example, and many epic spells allow for saves and spell resistance.

They exist, though they're rare. See, for example, the UPS man (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208620).

[Vogonjeltz]

Wouldn't disjunction end wings of cover, and then end whatever it was covering?

Knowing to use the reaction spells seems to require high spell craft checks, which could be negated by a good false theurgy skill trick. Or casting it from cover/concealment (a target that doesn't recognize what is being cast won't know how or if they need to defend themselves)

*what has improved mettle? I'm somewhat skeptical that there is any practical way to get all the defenses listed. Many of them come from specific classes, or require a great deal of investment (time/money/research)

[Killer Angel]

@ Incorrect; while I disagree with the idea of your point, I can not deny the validity of it.

Pretty much. It is said that offence is the best defence, but if your offence fails to eliminate all your opponents, you'd better be prepared for the retaliation...

[Jeff the Green]

Wouldn't disjunction end wings of cover, and then end whatever it was covering?

I don't think so. WoC is instantaneous, so there's nothing to end.

[Vogonjeltz]

I don't think so. WoC is instantaneous, so there's nothing to end.

You're right, the spell says it protects against something targeting the character, which burst and emanation spells like disjunction or fireball don't. (Besides the reflex save bonus)

[Jeff the Green]

You're right, the spell says it protects against something targeting the character, which burst and emanation spells like disjunction or fireball don't. (Besides the reflex save bonus)

They do, however, still need line of effect.

[Vogonjeltz]

They do, however, still need line of effect.

Which the spell doesn't block, it only affects targeted spells.

*
Your foe could choose to attack the area in which you have taken cover with an area attack (such as a fireball spell).
In this case, you gain a +8 bonus to AC (if applicable) and a +4 bonus on Reflex saves.

[Jeff the Green]

Which the spell doesn't block, it only affects targeted spells.

*


The wings of force last just long enough to disrupt your foe's line of effect to you

In other words, wings of cover is dysfunctional. Is there anything in 3.5 that isn't?

[Shining Wrath]

Pretty much. It is said that offence is the best defence, but if your offence fails to eliminate all your opponents, you'd better be prepared for the retaliation...

The old idea of Mutually Assured Destruction; if I can absorb your best shot and still hit you unacceptably hard, you won't take that first shot.

In D&D terms, you want hit points.

I think the OP has a good list, but the priorities are IMNHO:
HP
Miss Chance (works on touch spells, too!)
Fort save
Will save

[Vogonjeltz]

In other words, wings of cover is dysfunctional. Is there anything in 3.5 that isn't?

Line of effect for a single targeted spell. Not just line of effect in general.


The wings of force last just long enough to disrupt your foe's line of effect to you, providing you total cover against a single attack with a weapon, spell, or psionic power.

Everything after the comma limits the statement about total cover.
There's no dysfunction there.

[Jeff the Green]

Line of effect for a single targeted spell. Not just line of effect in general.



Everything after the comma limits the statement about total cover.
There's no dysfunction there.

An attack is a directly offensive action, including a fireball.

[TrueJordan]

The spell Friendly Fire, after a full round action, doesn't allow you to be target by any ranged attack unless it affects an area, so screw you, beholders.

[TuggyNE]

An attack is a directly offensive action, including a fireball.

At least for purposes of spells, which wings of cover certainly is.

[ryu]

Is this character also going to be dealing with people smart enough to make ice assassins of enemies and mind rape them for knowledge of defenses? If so you may want to consider the possibility of defensively using mind rape.

[RavynsLand]

I'm a really big fan of having a lot of hit points. There's too many different types of attacks to avoid them all individually... but you can soak them all up.

[Vogonjeltz]

An attack is a directly offensive action, including a fireball.

Being an offensive action is distinct from an attack targeting a particular creature.

Casting Fireball will break invisibility, but it is also not in any way stopped by Wings of Cover which only works against spells that target the caster.

[eggynack]

What would such a spell be, if you do not mind answering my curiosity. I honestly do not know of any such spell. Even Wish allows for spell resistance, for example, and many epic spells allow for saves and spell resistance.
Solid fog is one good example. No SR, no save, no touch attack, just fog. FoM stops most of the impact, but you're not exactly targeting a generic defense in that case

The spell Friendly Fire, after a full round action, doesn't allow you to be target by any ranged attack unless it affects an area, so screw you, beholders.
Indeed, though I'm of the opinion that the immediate action mode is more insane. They're both great, however, and the fact that you have both is double-insane.

[NoACWarrior]

Necessary Magic Item Effects (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851) does a pretty good job of listing everything you should get, most of which is very affordable in the early to mid levels.

Ring of Counterspells can stop any spell which targets the user so long as the user put the spell in before hand.

As for the ultimate defense (hang on tight this will get silly) -
Pocket dimension from which you can never get out of and enemies can never warp into guarded by the best godly magic vs teleportation.
Being dead, you can't get more dead than dead, once you are dead (so long as you arn't using ghost walk rules) you can observe the battle field for free, until the DM takes the time to physically kick you out of the game area for which if you own the place you can setup a web cam and still observe on your smartphone.
Not yet existing, being in the flux of making your character so that you can observe what is going on without risking dying in the first place.
Using animate object on a blanket to block the path of an AoE thus causing it to fizzle (or simply not affect the area behind it) as a prepared action provided you already have the object animated and can direct it with a prepared action (I know that this isn't MTG, but I always wanted to try this)

[gorilla-turtle]

@ Blkmge, I would not consider most Wands to be big, and Teleportation does not strike me as a movement speed so much as just an ability.

@ Wings of Cover, I think I see what TuggyNE and such means. Being a burst, Disjunction goes off like a grenade. Wings of Cover creates a shield at the exact same time that the grenade goes off, which would limit part of the blast area. If it were an Emanation or a Spread, Wings of Cover would just be eaten along with the rest of your magic, since in the former it would continue to go off, and in the later it could go around it while also hitting it.

A 2nd level spell that can say no to a 9th level spell. How about that.

@ Jeff the Green, while I disagree with some of the "RAW" based rhetoric that some of thread uses (and I have little need to argue about it here), a thread within it is particularly useful to consider. And that thread does point out the need to acquire total immunity to as many affects as possible, if only to reduce the issue if any of the rare things that can bypass an immunity are encountered.

@ Vogonjeltz; the more difficult it is for an enemy to attack me by having to go out of their way to modify what and how they attack, even if they might manage to somehow make an attack, the better things are for me, particularly if it can be complicated as possible and I still have a way to defend against it or decent enough defenses to deal with it. It has been since the forum went down that I have gone through any books, however, so I actually lack an immediate response to cover based casting or false theurgy, at least beyond Divination Spells.

As for Improved Mettle, to be fair, I can not quite recall how to acquire that, either, actually. I was mostly listing it as the elder brother to Improved Evasion.

@ Killer Angel and Shining Wrath, agreed. A bit of the reason why the charger is one of my least favorite build types I have seen, both to fight against and to use.

@ TrueJordan, correct me if I am wrong, but baring the Anti-magic Eye, all of the eyes of the beholder are ranged touch attacks, each targeting a different saving throw, are they not? If so, then each one of them allows me to defend against them twice, maybe thrice, without the need for such a spell. That said, the spell looks incredibly powerful after a second look.

@ ryu, baring Pcs, no. Not that high of a level of optimization. I would consider the information being garnered by this thread more mid op if anything. At high op, there being a need for a defense in the first place means you have already lost.

...Defensive use of Mind Rape. That is... that is a suggestion...

@ RavynsLand, If this game did not have literally hundreds of ways to attack, kill, incapacitate, or otherwise defeat that have nothing to do with or completely ignore your hit points, I might agree. Sadly, that is not the case.

@ eggynack, Indeed. One of the spells listed on this thread that was provided by the thread that Jeff The Green provided. Having ways to reliably keep that and other like spells from being an issue should be a project to undertake.

@ NoACWarrior, counter-spelling certain spells if need be is a wise choice. And I respect that you prefaced the rest of your input with the acknowledgement of it being somewhat ridiculous in nature, though I am confident that someone has attempted to actively use such abilities in an actual game...

[sleepyphoenixx]

Improved Evasion and Mettle are overkill. As long as your saves are good enough normal Evasion and Mettle are sufficient and significantly easier to acquire.

On counterspelling: Divine Defiance(FC2) lets you spend a Turn Undead use to counter a spell as an immediate action. It needs a divine CL of 3.
A Ring of Spell-Battle negates casting from concealment and other ways to hide casting as long as it's within 60ft of you. It also lets you retarget something 1/day.(save it for that Disjunction. Then laugh.)

If you're going epic Epic Counterspell (PGtF) is pretty much THE counterspelling feat. Counterspelling as a free action, as often as you need to (as long as you have spells to counter with). Combine it with a Staff of Greater Dispel Magic or something similar so you always have something to dispel with.
It's also very expensive with its 5 prerequisite feats (although you'd probably get Quicken Spell anyway and Improved Initiative isn't bad).

[Vogonjeltz]

I seem to recall that wings of cover is explicit in that non targeted spells still connect. Anyone with book on hand able to confirm that?