Subpar Samurai

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

Why does it feel like all three Samurai stretching from OA to Pathfinder like they suck so hard?

Sure there are some brighter spots in them then just sucking but they all mostly suck. The CW Samurai is the worst offender to be sure, but why is it the Pathfinder Samurai had to suck? Why the OA wasn't created better, etc.

Does anyone have any ideas for a fix? I was asked to create a Kensai class based on the ideas of the Samurai and I would love input on just why these classes are made so full of fail and maybe gather up some good ideas to help make the class. Care to help?

[Nihilarian]

The Pathfinder one isn't that terrible. Still not amazing, but I wouldn't put it on the same level as the other two. It even has a Sword Saint archetype, if that's your thing.

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

Except it is to heavily focused on Challenge. Which is limited to 1/day at level 1 and doesn't see balance of 4/day till level 10. Sword Saint is very nice, if it didn't have to be focused on challenge, in fact if it was something to give you a nice thing outside of challenge it would be a good fix. But once you use up your challenge for the day. What else do you have left?

It is better then the other two but it is still not a good class.

[Nihilarian]

Except it is to heavily focused on Challenge. Which is limited to 1/day at level 1 and doesn't see balance of 4/day till level 10. Sword Saint is very nice, if it didn't have to be focused on challenge, in fact if it was something to give you a nice thing outside of challenge it would be a good fix. But once you use up your challenge for the day. What else do you have left?

It is better then the other two but it is still not a good class.You have Orders (most with unique and strong abilities), Resolve, Honorable Stand and Last Stand (making you pretty tough) and Banner (letting you buff the party a bit). It's an interesting class with something at every level. Not going to claim it's really powerful, but I consider it a good class.

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

Those are nice. But that just makes you a fighter with a handful of nice abilities.

Any ideas for more elevated abilities?

[Dr. Azkur]

CW Samurai is just a very harsh path into the cool class which is the Ronin.

[Slipperychicken]

Any ideas for more elevated abilities?

What do you mean? What would "elevate" the Samurai?


Have you ever considered playing a Warblade, from Tome of Battle? Those can make good samurai, and they have lots of flashy special moves for when you get tired of full-attacking.

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

I am trying to avoid just going that the route of "Just play ToB if your not a caster" we do not all need to use the striking stance of boosting.

[Jeff the Green]

Clearly they had to make the samurai weak to counterbalance the sheer badassery that is the katana.

[Vaz]

Not entirely sure what you really want from it?

A Paladin is a fighter with some nice abilities; Charisma/Wisdom become functional; you get Spellcasting buffs, Turn Undead to boost your divine feats, and an Animal Companion. With enough books, you can remove the spellcasting to give yourself some more feats like a fighter, you can remove some of the harsh alignment issues (or, just get a reasonable DM to remove the restrictions for his setting; after all, it's a fluff requirement, and said fluff may not be a part of his setting).

Fighter has several extremely good ACF's; notably Zhentarim (combine with Imperious Command etc; again, possibly remove alignment issues and fluff background), or go for the Dungeoncrasher variant.

Consider giving it access to an Apprentice feat from the DMG's, which increases his skill list, as well as Nymph's Kiss for the additional bonus skill points.

[eggynack]

I am trying to avoid just going that the route of "Just play ToB if your not a caster" we do not all need to use the striking stance of boosting.
It's more like, "Just play ToB if you want to be a samurai." Those are pretty much the best classes that fit that archetype, just like other classes are the best classes that fit other archetypes. I don't know why we need so many more solutions to this particular problem than the ones provided in that book.

[malonkey1]

It's more like, "Just play ToB if you want to be a samurai." Those are pretty much the best classes that fit that archetype, just like other classes are the best classes that fit other archetypes. I don't know why we need so many more solutions to this particular problem than the ones provided in that book.

Agreed. Specifically, I'd go with Warblade, or failing that Crusader.

[Sir Chuckles]

Don't do ToB if you want a truely traditional Samurai, though.
That'd be an archer of some degree.

[malonkey1]

Don't do ToB if you want a truely traditional Samurai, though.
That'd be an archer of some degree.

While I see the blueness of your tone, I should point out that although ToB is basically melee-only, there's also Dreamscarred Press's Path of War, which is an excellent rules update and adds a full discipline devoted to ranged fighting (Solar Wind). It's about $15 on the site for all three classes.

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

I don't want to play a ToB, I have stated this before. I understand in your opinion its the best thing out there ever to be conceived as far as martial classes are concerned and while I do not mind using ToB or PoW for other ideas. I did not come here for that purpose.

This is the same as if someone came to ask for insight on the bard and all you did was say "Play a wizard and pretend like your singing matters"

[eggynack]

I don't want to play a ToB, I have stated this before. I understand in your opinion its the best thing out there ever to be conceived as far as martial classes are concerned and while I do not mind using ToB or PoW for other ideas. I did not come here for that purpose.
It's not entirely clear what you do want, in that case, which is one of the big reasons ToB is mentioned so much. If you want to build a class that's actually effective, at around tier three, then you need a fix that grants a large number of abilities, those abilities need to apply to a reasonable quantity of situations, and those abilities need to scale well. These things are highly important, and the fact that low tier classes are that way is largely because they didn't take those design elements to heart.

So, that's what you probably need in your samurai fix if you want anything more than mediocrity, and it's most of the reason, though not all of the reason, that samurai are bad. You can pull from ToB, because it's full of a massive quantity of well designed things that fit these parameters, or I guess you could design those things yourself. I'd advise the former, though with a good amount of time on your hands, the latter is plausible.


This is the same as if someone came to ask for insight on the bard and all you did was say "Play a wizard and pretend like your singing matters"
I likely would not do that. Bards are cool. If bards sucked, then yes, it is plausible that I'd advise running a different class. Because it's a lot easier to just replaced a poorly designed game object with a well designed one than it is to make your own little corner of the game.

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

I am not saying ToB is a bad set up or PoW but I am asking for something other then the answer "Throw maneuvers at it" that is all.

[Donny_Green]

What do you mean? What would "elevate" the Samurai?


Have you ever considered playing a Warblade, from Tome of Battle? Those can make good samurai, and they have lots of flashy special moves for when you get tired of full-attacking.

Warblades are sooooo much fun. and it would be very easy to theme them to a samurai.

[Forrestfire]

My solution, given your constraints, would be to find a good homebrew fix. I like T.G. Oskar's. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143018)

[malonkey1]

I am not saying ToB is a bad set up or PoW but I am asking for something other then the answer "Throw maneuvers at it" that is all.

Well, if your DM allows it, you could always Gestalt it with another, complementary class (I'm quite partial to Factotum, especially if you can use Iaijutsu Focus).

[Nihilarian]

I don't want to play a ToB, I have stated this before. I understand in your opinion its the best thing out there ever to be conceived as far as martial classes are concerned and while I do not mind using ToB or PoW for other ideas. I did not come here for that purpose.

This is the same as if someone came to ask for insight on the bard and all you did was say "Play a wizard and pretend like your singing matters"While it's true that ToB is the best source for martial classes, in this case the reason people recommend it is because the warblade might as well be called the samurai. The fluff and feel of the book is very eastern in style, and the Wwarblade in particular just screams kensai.

More importantly, we know you want to make a samurai but we don't know what kind of samurai you want. Dual wield? Mounted? One-handed? Two-handed? Spear? Archer? Do you want the flavor of communing with your ancestors (or whatever) or is it pure warrior with an oriental paint job?

Edit: My favorite "samurai" is the factotum, though.

[Mcdt2]

My solution, given your constraints, would be to find a good homebrew fix. I like T.G. Oskar's. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143018)

Seconding this, I absolutely adore all of TG Oskar's fixes. I'd also recommend his paladin, monk, and ranger fixes especially.

[Flickerdart]

Don't do ToB if you want a truely traditional Samurai, though.
That'd be an archer of some degree.
Initiators aren't terrible at archery - there are a couple of stances and maneuvers that benefit bows. Plus, was a samurai not supposed to be a master of many different weapons - the spear, the sword, and the bow?

[LTwerewolf]

Take 1 level in human paragon. Ensure That Iajutsu Focus is your adaptive skill. This pretty much gives you everything you need from the samurai class from OA, unless you really want to have the masterwork weapons. After that, mix and match until you can get the requirements for iajutsu master. Most of the time this is the class that people are really thinking is so very samurai.



Initiators aren't terrible at archery - there are a couple of stances and maneuvers that benefit bows. Plus, was a samurai not supposed to be a master of many different weapons - the spear, the sword, and the bow?

This is true to a point. Samurai didn't really use their katanas all that often. They're depicted with their katana for the same reasons knights were depicted with longswords: it made for better cinematic art. In reality, the naginata or spear and yumi were used far more often, under the same concept as you see a lot in d&d. Why let them get close enough to hit you if you don't have to? Even the kanabo ended up seeing more use in your typical fight than the katana. It's their signature weapon, that doesn't mean it was their primary one, so while they were theoretically proficient with them, most samurai were not masters with them.

[Ziegander]

To the OP: What is it you are looking for in a Samurai class? A non-Tome of Battle badass who mows people down with a katana? Is that all? Is there something more that you want? Do you want mystical "eastern" abilities? Do you want some form of Kiai Smite that's not horrible? Iaijutsu Focus perhaps?

[Flickerdart]

They're depicted with their katana for the same reasons knights were depicted with longswords: it made for better cinematic art.
Surely lances are way more cinematic than swords. I mean, they're way bigger, and using one as directed requires you to charge majestically astride a mighty steed.

Either way, historical accuracy is probably not terribly important to the people that are willing to accept that Ex abilities can break beyond human capabilities, and thus would play a playable samurai.

[LTwerewolf]

Surely lances are way more cinematic than swords. I mean, they're way bigger, and using one as directed requires you to charge majestically astride a mighty steed.

Either way, historical accuracy is probably not terribly important to the people that are willing to accept that Ex abilities can break beyond human capabilities, and thus would play a playable samurai.

Neither here nor there, but the longsword and shield made knights seem more heroic. Braving odds and whatnot, it was the reason behind the weapon rather than the weapon itself. I agree with you though, historical accuracy d&d isn't.

[Aergoth]

Why does it feel like all three Samurai stretching from OA to Pathfinder like they suck so hard?

Sure there are some brighter spots in them then just sucking but they all mostly suck. The CW Samurai is the worst offender to be sure, but why is it the Pathfinder Samurai had to suck? Why the OA wasn't created better, etc.

Does anyone have any ideas for a fix? I was asked to create a Kensai class based on the ideas of the Samurai and I would love input on just why these classes are made so full of fail and maybe gather up some good ideas to help make the class. Care to help?

Can't speak to why the 3.5 Samurai aren't great but part of the problems afflicting the PF Samurai are that it's an alternate class.

PF Samurai is sort of a palatte swapped version of Pathfinder's Cavalier, so instead of the class being built from the ground up to suit the flavour of a samurai, the class is forced to lean on the core features of the Cavalier Class, namely the challenge and order components. Basically someone broke its legs before even starting by making it alternate flavour for the class.

While the original Alternate Class format tries to hit the historical points of Samurai (mounted archery, proficient with spears as well as swords) the Sword Saint archetype fits the cinematic samurai. The sort of swords on the beach at dawn, one strike and done sword duelist that people seem to like about samurai.

[DMVerdandi]

I wouldn't even use a samurai class to play a samurai. As you said, they have weak mechanics. Aside from home-brew, I would actually play another class for the samurai. More likely than not, I would choose cleric.
Now that would be more of the kensei in my opinion. Instead of worshiping the classic deities, I would worship minor clan deities (definitely a thing in japan. Worshiping the kami of one's family). Cleric spells are really quite flavorful and similar to what mythological samurai would be doing. Buffs, alignment auras, ect.

I would also use the smiting spell feat to have those spells work through my katana or whatever weapon i used, pick up the ancestral relic feat, and finally the otherworldly feat to distinguish those of the samurai caste as above other human beings on a spiritual level. It also nets you proficiency in all weapons and armors as an outsider.

For ninja, generally using the full casting classes. wizard/wu jen, archivist, druid, and beguiler all work based on what type of ninja one wants to portray.

wizard/ wu jen works for ninpo specialists, archivist for ascetics like yamabushi/shugenja who control inner nature (as opposed to ninpo who control the world outside themselves). Druid for animal users and shape shifters. Beguilers for dedicated illusionists.


Alternatively, the psionic classes can also be used for either one.
Psychic warriors for samurai, Lurk/psionic rogues for the ninja, or psion/erudite.

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

Then you should check out the Warpriest coming out soon, that pretty much does everything you suggest.

[danzibr]

I had a homebrew fix for the Samurai a while back. Essentially it made them decent at what they did historically.