How bad is this Fighter?

[Azoth]

Hey all, I have a buddy wanting to play a straight class fighter in a low/low-mid op game. He wants to go straight 20 with it despite protests from others, and he wanted to look like a normal person as well (so no templating him up or picking monstruous races). He also didn't want to be useless outside of combat either, so I sat down and tried my best to help him make a straight 20 that was surviveable. Please let me know how bad this turned out.

Race: Azurin
Rolled stats: Str:16 Dex:13 Con:14 Int:13 Wis:8 Cha:14
Stats after Level Ups: Str:19 Dex:14 Con:14 Int:13 Wis:8 Cha:15
Stats after +5 str tomb and +6 belt of magnificence: Str:30 Dex:20 Con:20 Int:19wis: 14 Cha:21

ACFs:
Hit and Run Fighter +2 initiative, +dex to damage against flat footed foes
Thug Fighter Light armor only no shield prof
Dead Levels: Physical Prowess (Applied Force at all odd levels giving +9 to STR checks to bust items)
Zhentarim Soldier Substitution Levels
Eldritch Warrior Sunstitution Levels (trade lvl 10, 14, 18 bonus feats for light/medium/heavy fortification)

Feats:
Flaw: Able Learner
Flaw: Jotunbrud
Azurin: Combat Expertise
1st: Imp Trip
Ftr2: Combat Reflexes
3: Shape Soulmeld (Keeneye Lenses)
Ftr3: Skill Focus(Intimidate)
Ftr4: Martial Study (Foe Hammer)
6: Imperious Command
Ftr6: Power Attack
Ftr8: Urban Tracker
9: Bonus Essentia
12: Open lesse Chakra (Brow)
Ftr12: Martial Stance (Ticket of Blades)
15: Defensive sweep
Ftr16: Robilar's Gambit
18: Imp Bull Rush
Ftr20: Knockback

Skills:
Intimidate: 23 Ranks +3 Skill Focus+ 5 Cha mod=31
Tumble: 23 Ranks +5 Dex mod=28
Gather Information: 23 Ranks +5 Cha mod=28
Diplomacy: 23 Ranks +5 Cha mod=28
Spot: 11 ranks +10 Keeneye Lenses +2 wis mod=23
Balance: 5ranks +6 Dex mod=11
Craft (pick one) 3 ranks+4 Int mod=7

Skill Tricks:
Never Outnumbered
Back on Your Feet


Gist of the Build:

Early Levels: 1-5

He starts off a pretty straight forward Tripper build, but due to Thug and Able learner you have 5 skillpoints per level so you are capable of more than just jumping and intimidating. Keeneye Lenses early on mean that between Cross Class ranks and it you stand a decent chance at spotting things out in the wilds. You won't be as good as a dedicated scout, but atleast you can see your hand in front your face.

Midling Levels: 6-15

You are just a slight bit behind the dedicated faces of the world. You can charm with the best of them, scare people like a rampaging orc, and learn whar is going on in any town you enter. Need to track down someone in town, well hey you can do that easy and without magic. Still being a tripper in combat, but now, once someone enters your zone of influence and they aren't going to be happy whether they stay or try to leave. Oh, your Keeneye Lenses now are letting you see all those invisible enemies and sneaks as well.

Upper Levels:
Yeah I ran out of steam here...couldn't think of too many more tripper/lockdown feats. All you really get here are better at doing what you have been doing skill wise, full immunity to crit/sneak attack damage, and some light secondary combat options. I also don't expect the game we are playing to get this high a level.

[hemming]

What does the rest of the party look like (for frame of reference)?

[Snowbluff]

It's alright for a fighter.

[Azoth]

The rest of the group are still hemming and hawing over what they want to play. They aren't very skilled in terms of optimizing though. I am the only optimizer and either resign myself to the party skillmonkey or buffer so as to not overshadow them.

It is usually my job to help them make what they want to happen come to be. They are great roleplayers, but mechanically they are vulnerable to housecats at level 5 without help.

[hemming]

The rest of the group are still hemming

Excellent choice!

I always think of tripper builds as needing the spiked chain to really excel(which means an EWP in there somewhere)

[OldTrees1]

Your mobility is questionable. You cannot engage flying opponents.

Otherwise it looks good.

[Azoth]

Excellent choice!

I always think of tripper builds as needing the spiked chain to really excel(which means an EWP in there somewhere)

Why waste a feat when there is the Skillful weapon enchantment? +1 enchant to make you automatically profficient with the weapon and set BAB to 15 if you don't have better than 15 anyway.

Though odds are he will use a polearm/gauntlet combo.

[hemming]

Good question! Oooh - is that enhancement from MIC? Where can I find it?

[ericgrau]

Normally I use cheap magic items for out of combat utility. Like marvelous pigments and a +5 in craft(painting). For that matter I wouldn't spend nearly 2/3 of your wealth on measly ability scores. Gear is as much a part of your build as anything else. Play smart with several more affordable effects mostly for combat plus a little for out of combat. Everyone gets it, but everyone gets feats too, and you pick the ones that are best tailored to you.

A lot of it may depend on the DM, but you'll probably be keeping only part of treasure and selling to buy what you want. So you can make plans for a good chunk of your WBL at least. Unless your DM railroads treasure, everything you find coincidentally fits the party, you start at level 1 and NPC crafters are extinct. Even then you can drop hints.

[TmasterT]

how do you get tumble as a class skill?

[Fouredged Sword]

Is there a compelling reason you are not taking the dungeon crasher ACF replacing your 2nd and 6th level fighter feats? Is there a compelling reason you have not taken the knockback feat much earlier, what about shock trooper for the ability to trip opponents you knock into each other (and get free attacks due to improved trip)?

I think without early power attack you are going to hurt for damage without some form of damage boost. I would move that earlier into the build. Otherwise this seems a fine fighter build. I would recommend a 2 level dip in feat rogue for evasion and an extra fighter feat. You trade a little HP and one point of BAB for better reflex saves, a handful of skill points (and a bunch of skill to use with able learner), an extra fighter feat, and evasion. Worth it in my book.

I would do the feat rogue dip for more fighter feats, allowing you to drop urban tracking and take dungeoncrasher instead.

[atemu1234]

I like the fighter personally. Access to bonus feats like the ones the fighter has and a full base attack bonus give it plenty of room for optimization. But even with the optimization, it's a pretty boring class. I understand the people that find it weak, and it's definitely not as flashy as, say, a wizard. But it is worth running if you're looking for a good, fun character build. Even if it is boring, you might have an interesting enough character to make it work.

[Azoth]

Is there a compelling reason you are not taking the dungeon crasher ACF replacing your 2nd and 6th level fighter feats? Is there a compelling reason you have not taken the knockback feat much earlier, what about shock trooper for the ability to trip opponents you knock into each other (and get free attacks due to improved trip)?

I think without early power attack you are going to hurt for damage without some form of damage boost. I would move that earlier into the build. Otherwise this seems a fine fighter build. I would recommend a 2 level dip in feat rogue for evasion and an extra fighter feat. You trade a little HP and one point of BAB for better reflex saves, a handful of skill points (and a bunch of skill to use with able learner), an extra fighter feat, and evasion. Worth it in my book.

I would do the feat rogue dip for more fighter feats, allowing you to drop urban tracking and take dungeoncrasher instead.

The problem is trying to balance out having skills for keeping the build useful out of combat, and a combat style. I thought of just going with a charging, bullrushing, combat brute or a tripper. A tripper seemed easier and less likely to be met with a book to the head.

I can sack the tripper feats to make him a charging bullrusher, but without a way to gain pounce it seems a bit wasted.

[Fouredged Sword]

My thought was you are not taking any feats at 1st level with a BAB prereq. You can net yourself a ton more skillpoints and class skills by taking 2 levels of feat rogue at 1st and 2nd level. This gets you an extra fighter feat where you normally have a dead slot.

This leads me to think that you should reintroduce dungeoncrasher and drop urban tracking or the skill focus feat. The skill focus feat can be replaced with an item that boosts intimidate. No need to burn a feat slot on it.

Feats are not something you should spend on things you can buy for gold. Unless you are going to bring knock back earlier into the build. Unless you are move Knockback forward in the build, I would also trade Jotunbrud for EWP: spiked chain and get a pair of strongarm bracers for reach and +to trip. A sweeping spiked chain grants a larger trip bonus that the increase in size does.

[OldTrees1]

Is there a compelling reason you are not taking the dungeon crasher ACF replacing your 2nd and 6th level fighter feats? Is there a compelling reason you have not taken the knockback feat much earlier, what about shock trooper for the ability to trip opponents you knock into each other (and get free attacks due to improved trip)?

Can you find 2 fighter feats on his build that he would be better off without?
Urban Tracker is used to give the character more versatility outside of combat.
Defensive Sweep is often recommend for Thick of Blades lockdowns.
I think he is better off with the added versatility and without Dungeoncrasher.

However I agree some of the feats could be moved around. (Earlier Power Attack and Knockback, later FoeHammer and Defensive Sweep)


If you were not limited to only Fighter levels, a few 1-2 level dips would result in more feats total (Crusader 2 instead of the Martial Study & Martial Stance, Feat Rogue 2).
However since the objective is Fighter 20, I think this was well done (although it is missing an answer to flying opponents)

[Azoth]

Foe Hammer is to qualify for Thicket of Blades. It requires one other Devoted Spirit maneuver as a prereq.

Skill Focus (Intimidate) is given for free by a substitution level. I didn't spend a feat on it.

No fighter bonus feat at 1st level is because Thug Fighter trades away the first level bonus feat for 4+int skill points and an expanded skill list.

Trust me, I can build a purely mundane melee terror with multiclassing and PRC useage. I was working within the design request of another player. Those requests were: 1) Pure fighter 20. 2) Useful out of combat. 3)Useful in Combat.

[Icewraith]

Foe Hammer is to qualify for Thicket of Blades. It requires one other Devoted Spirit maneuver as a prereq.

Skill Focus (Intimidate) is given for free by a substitution level. I didn't spend a feat on it.

No fighter bonus feat at 1st level is because Thug Fighter trades away the first level bonus feat for 4+int skill points and an expanded skill list.

Trust me, I can build a purely mundane melee terror with multiclassing and PRC useage. I was working within the design request of another player. Those requests were: 1) Pure fighter 20. 2) Useful out of combat. 3)Useful in Combat.

Depending on how low-op the rest of the party turns out to be (and whether or not you end up in the massive creatures and oozes campaign) you may have actually overshot the mark here. If possible, get that Dex score up a bit more (even to 14 would be huge) so combat reflexes is more useful and he has more opportunities to let his tripping schtick work. Also get power attack sooner if possible- difficult to trip opponents are usually big and have fairly bad ac, so if tripping doesn't work at least he can whack it extra hard.