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Delanish
2007-02-03, 05:02 PM
See i've been playing dnd for awhile and what i have trouble with I love Spell casters i love them, i get bored ofmy fighters battle style early on....

but mages i i like but the problem is i not sure which is better

A wizard or a sorcerer

and what Race to play either as... Human, Strongheart Halfling, Drow, Sunelf, Other.

Khantalas
2007-02-03, 05:10 PM
Grey Elf Wizard. Sun Elf loses Constitution which is not desirable compared to Grey Elf's strength penalty.

Grey elves had a strength penalty, right?

Of course, this is assuming optimization. I play gnomes myself.

Dhavaer
2007-02-03, 05:33 PM
Grey Elves do have a strength penalty, but they also have a constitution penalty.

Yuki Akuma
2007-02-03, 05:34 PM
All elves have a consitution penalty (and dexterity bonus) unless it says the ability adjustments replace the high elf's. Not many of them do.

Delanish
2007-02-03, 05:39 PM
Let's see

Elves
Sun +2 INT, -2 Con
Drow +2 Dex.+2int+2Cha, -2Con (But light penaltlies and ELC+2)

Humans

Strongheart Halfling-Quick to Master instead of lucky (-2Str +2Dex)
Gnomes -2 Str +Con
Thief ling +2 Dex,+2 Int, -2Cha (some MAgical res and ELC+1

Delanish
2007-02-03, 05:41 PM
So what about the classes :)

Draz74
2007-02-03, 05:50 PM
Sorcerers are more fun and less bookkeeping. Wizards are more powerful.

Green Bean
2007-02-03, 05:53 PM
So what about the classes :)

For battlefield control purposes, go for the wizard. This is the role that makes the wizard so powerful. Sorcerors are not as strong in this role due to their smaller spell lists.

For blasting purposes, sorcerors have a slight edge. However, a damage output spellcaster is arguably less effective than a battlefield control one.

It's really all up to what you want out of this charater.

ken-do-nim
2007-02-03, 05:53 PM
For me the sweet spot is a gnome illusionist with barred schools conjuration/evocation.

Pros:
Might as well be small-sized if you are playing a non-melee class.
Gnomes get built in bonus to illusion save dcs.
Illusion school has shadow conjuration/evocation spells so you can still cast many of your favorite conj/evoc spells.

Cons:
I don't believe greater shadow conjuration gives teleport.

Overall, I think that's a small price to pay. You can get magic items that do teleportation for you.

Edit: As for wizards vs. sorcerers, it's not even close. Wizards put spells in their spell books, then make scrolls of them for when they are needed to have maximum flexibility. To add insult to injury, they get bonus feats and higher level spells faster. Also pearls of power give wizards even more spells per day. Oh, and wizards can quicken while sorcerers cannot.

starwoof
2007-02-03, 05:56 PM
Wild elves dnt have a con penalty, they have an int penalty, so even worse for a wizard. I've always found humans to make excellent wizards. The extra feat and skills is always nice. Gnomes can also make good wizards, with the con bonus and all.

Sorceror's are good if you're lazy or want to wait for your better spells.

barawn
2007-02-03, 06:04 PM
For battlefield control purposes, go for the wizard. This is the role that makes the wizard so powerful. Sorcerors are not as strong in this role due to their smaller spell lists.

Depends on what level the character is, really. Sorcerors can easily have similar flexibility to the wizard using scrolls. if money's not too much of an issue.

I'd definitely say sorceror if it's his first time using mages. Bookkeeping for wizards takes a bit to get used to.

Delanish
2007-02-03, 06:18 PM
Ok thanks sounds wizard to me what about class now

Elves have (Wizards usually as favoried class and con Penalies But do have weapons Pros Aka longbow)

(Drow see above)

Thiefling- Plus dex and int but +1 ELC but also has Some minor magical Res and Darkiness.

Gnomes Have illusion bonus and small statue

Humans have Bonus feat and skill

Others.(Shrughs)

tarbrush
2007-02-03, 06:42 PM
For me the sweet spot is a gnome illusionist with barred schools conjuration/evocation.

HERESY! HERESY I SAY!!!!

But seriously, I don't know how you cope, I'd go crazy. It's a long wait for shadow conjuration, and teleporting in all its multivarious forms is really really useful.

Delanish
2007-02-03, 06:54 PM
So

2 votes on gnomes anyone else for which rac eis better in 3.5 for wizards

clockwork warrior
2007-02-03, 06:58 PM
go gnomes! they are my fav. race

personaly go for wizards, i just like the style (even without the bonus feats i would choose them)

ken-do-nim
2007-02-03, 07:28 PM
HERESY! HERESY I SAY!!!!

But seriously, I don't know how you cope, I'd go crazy. It's a long wait for shadow conjuration, and teleporting in all its multivarious forms is really really useful.

:smallsmile:

My coping mechanisms are ray and touch spells (+1 to hit because I'm small-sized) and I locomote via shadow walk, fly, and overland flight. Also, shadow conjuration can create a phantom steed.

The key to a gnome illusionist is pumping that save dc up. With the extra +1 from being a gnome, pump up your intelligence and take the spell focus spells so your phantasmal killer for instance can be really nasty. Though you are not as effective against undead & constructs, you can still fool them with your bread & butter illusions, and chill touch can be effective when undead get in close.

Ninja Chocobo
2007-02-03, 07:30 PM
Gnome. Bonus to constitution is very useful, and Strength should be your dump stat. (Well, one of your dump stats).

ken-do-nim
2007-02-03, 07:35 PM
Gnome. Bonus to constitution is very useful, and Strength should be your dump stat. (Well, one of your dump stats).

So by my count that is 4 votes for gnome. Woohoo! Of course you don't have to be a gnome illusionist, you could even be a gnome sorcerer just take a few illusion spells. Wizard is more powerful, sorcerer is less effort in game. Outside of game, you'll tear your hair out deciding which spells to know when you level up.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-03, 07:39 PM
So by my count that is 4 votes for gnome. Woohoo! Of course you don't have to be a gnome illusionist, you could even be a gnome sorcerer just take a few illusion spells. Wizard is more powerful, sorcerer is less effort in game. Outside of game, you'll tear your hair out deciding which spells to know when you level up.

I've already put a (clearly 100% perfect and flawless) list together in a recent thread, here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1938357&postcount=54

Delanish
2007-02-03, 07:41 PM
3.5 gnomes doj't get SPell focus illusion free just to let you know

ken-do-nim
2007-02-03, 07:45 PM
I've already put a (clearly 100% perfect and flawless) list together in a recent thread, here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1938357&postcount=54

Might not be an ideal list for a gnome; I'd want to take advantage of that extra +1 on illusions. I especially love project image, gnome or no. But yes it is a very solid list.

But anyway, the tearing hair out part isn't just with knowing what your list will look like at level 20, it is what order to take them in at each level. There are also some superb spells at certain levels that you want to swap out later on.



3.5 gnomes doj't get SPell focus illusion free just to let you know

Edit: They just get a flat +1 which is even better because it means they can take spell focus illusion and it will stack.

Renegade Paladin
2007-02-03, 08:04 PM
All elves have a consitution penalty (and dexterity bonus) unless it says the ability adjustments replace the high elf's. Not many of them do.
Wild elves don't, but they tend to not make good wizards for cultural reasons if nothing else. :smallwink:

Ramza00
2007-02-03, 08:27 PM
HERESY! HERESY I SAY!!!!

But seriously, I don't know how you cope, I'd go crazy. It's a long wait for shadow conjuration, and teleporting in all its multivarious forms is really really useful.
And a wizard can effectively get dimension door for 3000 gp, 6,000 unslotted via using the items in the back of tob that grant manuevers. You of course pick up the shadow teleportation manuevers.

Long range teleport is more difficult and expensive.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-03, 08:34 PM
Ramza, don't you need to meet the maneuver prereqs to use the maneuver-granting-item maneuvers?

Delanish
2007-02-03, 09:56 PM
So Gnomes beat elves and humans away?

Ramza00
2007-02-03, 10:06 PM
Ramza, don't you need to meet the maneuver prereqs to use the maneuver-granting-item maneuvers?
I don't have my books right next to me so I can't answer that question definitely.

Yet I can sorta answer it according to the TOB: Trick/Combo Library CO thread, Shadow Jaunt (2, Std), Shadow Stride (5, Move), and Shadow Blink (7, Swift) have no maneuver prerequisites so it doesn't matter. Somebody with there books on hand can verify what I am saying.

Dhavaer
2007-02-03, 11:30 PM
So Gnomes beat elves and humans away?

Yes, gnomes are the best mages out of the PHB races, edging out halflings and dwarves. After them it's humans, half-elves, elves and half-orcs, in that order.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-03, 11:53 PM
Of course, humans are good at everything, so it doesn't really matter.

Armads
2007-02-03, 11:54 PM
Yes, gnomes are the best mages out of the PHB races, edging out halflings and dwarves. After them it's humans, half-elves, elves and half-orcs, in that order.

by "mages", do you mean wizards or sorcerers or both?

starwoof
2007-02-03, 11:55 PM
Mage is pretty much a catch-all term for arcane casters.

Arbitrarity
2007-02-04, 12:00 AM
Dwarves, IMO, don't make great sorcerors.

Though yeah, other than that, gnomes FTW!

iceman
2007-02-04, 12:07 AM
Be wary of specializing in certain schools I personally don't believe that the benefitsof being able to cast one additional spell per day and receiving a +2 bonus to spellcraft is worth giving up two whole schools of magic. Remember that you may not use spells from scrolls and wands that are from your prohibited schools either. If you do as suggested and prohibit conj. and evoc. then you are severly limiting your ability to deal direct damage. Now while I'm for that most of the time there are occasions where you just need to nuke everything that moves.

One more thing if you keep evocation it is best to fire your aoe's and damage spells from wands and scrolls rather than preping them from your spell list

Lilivati
2007-02-04, 12:20 AM
Wizards are more powerful if you know what to prepare for.

Sorcerers are more powerful if you don't.

*shrug* Just my two cents from my limited experience playing each. I don't play casters as much.

Jack_Simth
2007-02-04, 01:39 AM
With enough sources available, Desert Kobolds make the best Sorcerers.

Which is a more mechanically useful character depends on the campaign.

A Sorcerer needs a 5 gp spell components pouch... but not always; spell and feat selection can eliminate the need for it.
A Wizard needs a 5 gp spell component pouch, a spellbook, scribing materials, and as many scrolls as can be obtained.
In a low-wealth campaign, the Sorcerer is liable to do better.

A Sorcerer doesn't lose options until the Sorcerer is out of top-tier spell slots.
Every spell a Wizard casts is an option the Wizard no longer has.
After two or three encounters, the Sorcerer has more options for the next encounter than does the Wizard.

A Sorcerer can choose how many of a given spell to cast as it comes up.
The Wizard needs to have a good idea how many of a given spell to cast at least 15 minutes in advance, and is often left with spell slots dedicated to spells that are useless in the situation ("wasted").
The Sorcerer is more effecient with daily recources (no wasted spell slots). This usually only matters when there's more than one or two encounters in a given day.

A Sorcerer is ready to go at basically any time.
A Wizard needs down time to scribe spells, craft scrolls, craft wands, and so on.
In a campaign with little to no down-time, the Sorcerer will do better.

A Sorcerer's spells per day cap out at a base of 6.
A Wizard's spells per day cap out at a base of 4.
In an endurance run, the Sorcerer is going to do better.

And so on, and so forth. Depending on the campaign, a Sorcerer will do better than a Wizard. Depending on the campaign, a Wizard will do better than a Sorcerer.

With enough sources and optimization available, the Sorcerer can give a Wizard a run for his money in just about any campaign.

Were-Sandwich
2007-02-04, 04:38 AM
I always play sorcerers because I hate prepare casters. I don't like the idea, and I never get along well when playing one because Im a very cautious person by nature, so always spend 5 minutes umming and aaaing over whether to use that magic missile. As a sorc it doesn't matter, as I have another one if I need it.

ken-do-nim
2007-02-04, 07:10 AM
Be wary of specializing in certain schools I personally don't believe that the benefitsof being able to cast one additional spell per day and receiving a +2 bonus to spellcraft is worth giving up two whole schools of magic. Remember that you may not use spells from scrolls and wands that are from your prohibited schools either. If you do as suggested and prohibit conj. and evoc. then you are severly limiting your ability to deal direct damage. Now while I'm for that most of the time there are occasions where you just need to nuke everything that moves.

One more thing if you keep evocation it is best to fire your aoe's and damage spells from wands and scrolls rather than preping them from your spell list

Good point. Specializing in divination only causes you to lose one school, and even if you decide not to specialize, if you grab enough pearls of power you'll have tons of spells anyway.

Delanish
2007-02-04, 07:45 AM
By Mage i mean wizards :)

Khantalas
2007-02-04, 07:48 AM
Actually, Arcanist is the catch-all term for arcane spellcasters. Mage is the catch-all term for people whose main talents lie in spellcasting.

So, a Bard is an arcanist, but not a mage.

Jade_Tarem
2007-02-04, 12:10 PM
For me, if we're just talking about base races, Human for both. There's an extra feat and a bunch of extra skill points, and those help a great deal. If that extra one point of DC is so important, the human can use his bonus feat on spell focus, and he can put it in whatever school he wants. Granted, the gnome may eventually get to +3, which the human can't do until epic levels, but so what? Also, you tend to get more respect, at least in the games we play.

For the ultracheese build, Lantern archon for sorcerer. No, really. You kiss most equipment good bye, take -10 to strength and -4 to intelligence, and have to take two feats just to cast spells, but in return you get flight, teleportation, immunity to elec and petrification, light rays, and that magic circle against evil. Plus aura of menace, but that never works, so we won't count that.

barawn
2007-02-04, 03:38 PM
With enough sources and optimization available, the Sorcerer can give a Wizard a run for his money in just about any campaign.

Absolutely. Sorcerers with craploads of scrolls are essentially wizards with extra spells per day. Wizards with craploads of pearls of power are essentially sorcerers with a big spell list.

You can make a wizard-like sorcerer, you can make a sorcerer-like wizard. Which kind is more valuable depends on the campaign involved. In the last (very long term) campaign I ran, the party took a plot path that was very fast-paced, and very money-poor (i.e. no towns/cities). A wizard would've been heavily screwed there, but part of the reason they took that path was because they could, because the main spellcaster was a sorcerer.

A lot of it also has to do with how easily it will be to get new spells, also. A wizard who can't buy additional spells (due to lack of money or lack or availability) won't really significantly outpace a sorcerer in terms of available spells.

Jack_Simth
2007-02-04, 04:04 PM
Absolutely. Sorcerers with craploads of scrolls are essentially wizards with extra spells per day. Wizards with craploads of pearls of power are essentially sorcerers with a big spell list.

Works, but it wasn't actually the path I was referring to. Technically, under Magic-Psionics transparency, Limited Wish can duplicate Psychic Reformation. Psychic Reformation lets you swap out feats, skills, and powers known (within a particular set of limitations). Under Magic-Psionics transparency, Psychic Reformation can swap out Spells Known, too. For 300 XP, a 7th level spell slot, and a standarad action, a 14th+ Sorcerer suddenly has access to any spell the Sorcerer could have known (which basically means any spell in the game). As this applies to feats and skills, too, the Sorcerer can also craft any item by this route (switching out a feat to be able to Craft it, as well as grabbing the spells needed). Tack on a Kobold (Desert Kobold, prefferably) with the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage (+1 Sorcerer spellcasting, from the Races of the Dragon online Web Enhancement - which puts the Kobold Sorcerer at the same spell access as a Wizard) and a Dragon Magazine Bloodline feat (Draconic is my choice, for flavor meshing with the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage), Rapid Metamagic (Complete Mage - removes the increased casting time), and Quicken Spell, and there's basically nothing the Wizard can do that the Sorcerer can't, although it costs the Sorcerer a bit more XP. But that's okay, as the Sorcerer doesn't need to be spending XP on scrolls, wands, and staves. As the Sorcerer doesn't have to spend the gold on them either, doesn't need as much down time, has no need for maintaining and defending a spellbook, such a Sorcerer is liable to be stronger overall.

And the Sorcerer still gets more spells per day and spontaneous casting.

Drips cheese, though.


You can make a wizard-like sorcerer, you can make a sorcerer-like wizard. Which kind is more valuable depends on the campaign involved. In the last (very long term) campaign I ran, the party took a plot path that was very fast-paced, and very money-poor (i.e. no towns/cities). A wizard would've been heavily screwed there, but part of the reason they took that path was because they could, because the main spellcaster was a sorcerer.

A lot of it also has to do with how easily it will be to get new spells, also. A wizard who can't buy additional spells (due to lack of money or lack or availability) won't really significantly outpace a sorcerer in terms of available spells.
Yep. Skipping cheese, for the most part, the overall power of the Wizard vs. the overall power of the Sorcerer is a campaign issue.

Arbitrarity
2007-02-04, 09:33 PM
For the ultracheese build, Lantern archon for sorcerer. No, really. You kiss most equipment good bye, take -10 to strength and -4 to intelligence, and have to take two feats just to cast spells, but in return you get flight, teleportation, immunity to elec and petrification, light rays, and that magic circle against evil. Plus aura of menace, but that never works, so we won't count that.

Don't lantern archons have LA -?

So you can't play them?
Though I know ETools allows you to make them with 0 LA :smalleek: .

Lemur
2007-02-04, 10:02 PM
I personally favor wizards, but I think part of the class thing depends on your preferences for playing, and what sort of personality you want your character to have.

Anywho, regardless of which class you choose, take Spellcasting Prodigy (from the Forgotten Realms handbook) if your DM will let you, as your first feat.

Jade_Tarem
2007-02-05, 02:45 AM
Don't lantern archons have LA -?

So you can't play them?
Though I know ETools allows you to make them with 0 LA :smalleek: .

I have no Idea what ETools is. The SSG has guides that allow you to play (-) creatures with an LA. You just have to look at the complete picture and make some estimations, then acid test. Lantern archon balances out to a 0 LA on paper. Acid-test wise it doesn't really balance unless you restrict the Teleport ability until 15th level or so. Regardless, it's a fun character to play. It's a floating ball of light that casts as a full sorcerer, and is capable of doing all the sorc. build combos. Also, certain spells can change your color, so you can make fun of enemies after they get their can kicked by a pink ball of light and cuteness.

Kyrsis
2007-02-05, 02:54 AM
My favorite character is a human sorc myself.
Here's what I learned for playing both though - Even though the sorc has a shorter spell list, because they cast spontaneously they tend to be a little more diverse if you don't know what you're getting into, as you can cast whatever spells as many times as you have slots. If a wizard knows what he's getting into he'll kick more butt. With preperation if he doesn't know, he's got to prepare for anything. At least that's what I've figured out, usually the hard way, heh. Wizards also have the extra stuff, like metamagic feats not increasing casting time. Depends on how you want to go.
I always recommend to people playing acrane casters to play sorcs the first time, it's easier to keep track of spells. I don't know if you are a first timer, just saying.

Melrob
2007-02-05, 08:21 AM
I would agree with the above if it's your first time. Sorcerors are less maintenance and a good intro into some of the spells available to both classes as you advance in level.

However overall, at high level, the mage is definitely the more powerful option. Not only have you got more specialist options as noted above, you also have more focused prestige class options (i.e my current 6th level mage, 10 level fire elemental savant, 2 level archmage who can fling his 34 reflex DC meteor swarms etc into the fray of everything without injuring his party members, just for example). You get access to higher level spells more quickly and you also have access to extreme diversity- your daily spell selection is generally large enough to cover many situations and unless you're being attacked unexpectedly in neutral/friendly territory: you should have enough knowledge of what you're facing to be able to wisely select the appropriate spells and not 'waste' power.

And feats...oh the feats. Don't underestimate the power of feats, especially the many arcane feats available these days.

ericdraven88
2007-02-05, 10:04 AM
Raksasha Sorceror is the way to go... although I somehow think that your DM might not allow it.. hehe

The J Pizzel
2007-02-05, 12:40 PM
I haven't seen you mention if you can have a LA. If you can, Tiefling (+1) is a great way to go. +2 to Int. and Dex, -2 to Cha. I'm playing a Tiefling Wizard right now (probably PRC to Initiate of Sevenfold Viel) and I'm smoking the bad guys. Just prepare the good spells, keep scrolls of the "Orb of" spells and you're good to go.

pizzel

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-05, 12:41 PM
Um. LA is a TERRIBLE thing for a caster. Nothing LA can get you is worth a caster level.

Ramza00
2007-02-05, 12:47 PM
Um. LA is a TERRIBLE thing for a caster. Nothing LA can get you is worth a caster level.

Unless the LA gives you a caster level :smallsmile: A Kobold White Dragonspawn with LA buyback will have a Sorcerer Spells Known of 20 at lvl 18.

But as a general rule you are right :smallwink:

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-05, 12:48 PM
White Dragonspawn doesn't count.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-05, 12:59 PM
White Dragonspawn doesn't count.

What about Redspawn Arcaniss? +3 LA, but the RHD stack with Sorceror levels, and you get a bunch of niftiness with it too, as well as having the wonderful, wonderful (Dragonblooded) subtype, qualifying you for all those nifty feats in Draconomicon.

Jade_Tarem
2007-02-05, 01:10 PM
I would agree with the above if it's your first time. Sorcerors are less maintenance and a good intro into some of the spells available to both classes as you advance in level.

However overall, at high level, the mage is definitely the more powerful option. Not only have you got more specialist options as noted above, you also have more focused prestige class options (i.e my current 6th level mage, 10 level fire elemental savant, 2 level archmage who can fling his 34 reflex DC meteor swarms etc into the fray of everything without injuring his party members, just for example). You get access to higher level spells more quickly and you also have access to extreme diversity- your daily spell selection is generally large enough to cover many situations and unless you're being attacked unexpectedly in neutral/friendly territory: you should have enough knowledge of what you're facing to be able to wisely select the appropriate spells and not 'waste' power.

And feats...oh the feats. Don't underestimate the power of feats, especially the many arcane feats available these days.

Oh my ****** for the love of peace! :smallfurious:

Since it seems to need repeating in every thread that has a wizard and a sorcerer in it: sorcerer is not a "training wheels" character, though it can be used like that - just like wizard. I am so sick of people suggesting that it takes more intelligence and skill, period, to play a wizard. That's BS. Why not snub the barbarian and paladin players while you're at it? "You don't have to fiddle with your spellbook daily... this means I am 13373r thn j00"

On one of the wizard v. sorc. debate threads, a while back, someone pointed out two things: first, that your precious prestige classes CANCEL OUT your precious bonus metamagic feats. Unless the sorcerer and wizard are going 20 levels up against each other, you're getting maybe one bonus feat, tops. Second, there's a sorcerer build out there that has no fewer than 4 prestige classes and is capable of casting any arcane spell in all of DnD with a round to prepare. ANY spell. New sourcebook came out? You can do that. This build also sports full initiate of the sevenfold veil levels, and a few bonus metamagic feats itself, although to be fair they're pretty much all used up with prerequisites. He also has a level in archmage. That's right: all that and a bag of chips.

Hope that clears a few things up.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-05, 01:19 PM
. Second, there's a sorcerer build out there that has no fewer than 4 prestige classes and is capable of casting any arcane spell in all of DnD with a round to prepare. ANY spell. New sourcebook came out? You can do that. This build also sports full initiate of the sevenfold veil levels, and a few bonus metamagic feats itself, although to be fair they're pretty much all used up with prerequisites. He also has a level in archmage. That's right: all that and a bag of chips.

Hope that clears a few things up.

Bull. People don't read the Mage of the Arcane Order. Their spellpool ability is limited to core spells + things the DM adds, and, more importantly, can get them a total of [class level] spell levels a day. That's not BAD, no, but it's hardly "zomg cast any spell at a round's notice".

The wizard class is more potentially powerful, and less forgiving. Sorcerers can spontaneously cast and have less micromanagement; they are easier for new players to play. There's no shame in that.

Aerlock
2007-02-05, 01:21 PM
Just thought I'd clarify for a few people here about the Gray Elf. The Gray Elf is a subrace of Elves mentioned in the MM. It is not the same as a Drow/Dark Elf. The Gray Elf stats are +2 Dex +2 Int -2 Str -2 Con with all the rest of the Elf racial abilities and no LA. It's a great Wizard or Sorcerer race IMHO.

Aerlock

Melrob
2007-02-05, 02:16 PM
hahaha nice rage emote ^^

Glad you got that off your chest. But...

Firstly, I wasn't suggesting or implying it takes more or less intelligence to play any class: period. You can take it however you like it, but nothing I said stated that. I have a 21st level melee charcter as well which I enjoy playing as much, if not more, than I enjoy playing any of my other characters. I don't down other classes. But sorry...if you're likening the thought and effort it takes to play a caster of any type, divine OR arcane- the effort involved in preparation, time spent learning how to use your spells through gameplay or just reading the vast material available these days- to playing a barbarian or fighter then I call total and utter shenanigans to your whole post and I think anyone who has played a variety of classes will also agree. Especially the divine casters out there!

Have you ever watched a 20th level priest prepare his spells before a session while the 20th level barbarian starts preparing his real life dinner, eats it and then suggest a game of Risk while they wait? Point made. The effort involved doesn't even begin to compare, and as you wrongly highlighted: it has nowt to do with intelligence and everything to do with experience/knowledge and the willingness to know your spells and alot of players out there don't/can't devote the time it takes to do so, so they go mellee types. Am I being classist? No...Im talking from experience of playing with 3 different groups over the span of 22 years. And I can state without a shadow of a doubt that it's far easier to play my warrior than it is to play my mage. Not only do I have to recognise battle trends and react to them (as my warrior has to) I also have to take more care and protect myself far more...as well as manage a finite number of spells which could or could not make a vast difference to the scenario.

I've also played a sorceror, admittedly only to 10th level before the RTTEE finished him off permanently, but the effort to play him compared to my mage was vastly different. Sorry if that frustrates you and your love for the sorceror class...but it did.

The Op asked for the differences. We've all stated pretty much the same thing. If he wants and has the time to devote to the management of loads of spells compared to the carefully considered but low-maintenance option of the sorceror then go wizard. If he knows nothing about arcane spells, never played one, and would like to blast holes in things a good deal longer than a mage then go sorceror.

And the point about feats, hahah, what're you smoking? I gave a very miniscule example of what is possible with the mage class and prestige classes and you take it as the be all and end all of the subject. Take a mage and he has the benefit of more feats over the sorceror, that's it. Whether or not prestige classes are involved is entirely hypothetical and therefore redundant to the point I was making...otherwise I would've included it in my first paragraph, thanks. :)

Jade_Tarem
2007-02-05, 02:48 PM
*Sigh* I took nothing as a be-all and end-all. That's pretty stupid when talking about DnD, and I try to avoid it. And while I haven't been playing 22 years, I've played mages most of the time that I have been playing, sorcerers and wizards both, and haven't noticed a significant power difference between the two. Then I come here and recieve the repeated message: "You play sorcerers? N00B!"

Still, you should have been there the last time there was a sorcerer v. wizard debate. It was twelve pages long and more than one guy all but said that only lazy incompetent fools play sorcerers. I just wanted to be sure you weren't going there.

The point about feats is valid. I'm not "smoking" anything. A few PrC's grant bonus feats, but not many, and it's usually just one. Almost all the good mage builds include PrC's that don't have compensation for the 3 metamagic feats you sacrificed for your 12 levels of PrC's. As you point out, that's just one example, but they all pretty much run like that.

And BWL, I remember someone else saying that the spells in the spellpool were core only, I forgot because my Complete Arcane is on loan to the group powergamer. Regardless, it effectively answered that one guy's taunt "you name any sorcerer spell listing at any level and I'll name 10 spells from the PHB that you'll need and never have."

Perhaps I'm fighting ghosts, but I be gettin' mighty tired of people knocking sorcerer. It happens every time someone new to the forums wants to know the difference. Not that it's bad to want to know or to be new to the forums, but perhaps we should just sticky that debate thread from earlier, which contained everything that is, was, or will ever be good or bad about sorcerer and wizard.

Melrob
2007-02-05, 03:29 PM
;) Okay peace...just so you understand where I was coming from. I loved playing a sorceror and will probably do so again someday but there are huge defining differences between the two particularly in low level and high level campaigns...maybe not so noticeable during the mid-levels.

A perfect example would be an experience we had back in second edition about 8 or so years ago. Based on the Catherine Kerr books we'd travelled from a 'non-magic' society (Deverry) to a new land. Of course sorcerors didn't exist in 2ed, but I was playing my 1st level mage (the one described above no less) when we travelled a few days from this ruined settlement we'd inhabited on the coast of this new land. The first thing we came across was a small, dirty, tribalistic group of people (Orcs) who were cautious of us. They comprised of children and old folk and despite our attempts at communication couldn't understand us and vice versa. (We were from Deverry...we'd never heard of an orc. The strangest thing we'd ever seen was one of the westfolk (elves) and even then it was a short sighting based entirely on trade.) Anyway, I managed to carefully get close enough to one of the elder ones, close enough to touch his hand while passing him some food and cast comp. languages. Thus we began learning of our neighbors, learning their hunters were off foraging/hunting and would be back soon and that they had lived in this small group of caves for many suns.
We also learned that they did not work metal, this particular tribe, however there were other tribes far off who did. Determining they were no threat to us and our establishment...we moved off, leaving them in peace.

Now had my character at the time been a sorceror, I wonder how that meeting and our ensuing peace with that Orc tribe would have come about cause I certainly wouldn't have picked Comp. languages as one of my first spells. :P Without a doubt it would've been magic missile and possibly while we were still trying to communicate to these strange primitive people in a semmingly primitive land: we might've still been there when the men returned...and things may or may not have gotten ugly; completely changing the next couple of months of gameplay.

{Also, though this doesn't stand today with 3.5, it took months of playing, once a week, to gain a level with second edition rules. That gave you alot of time to casually learn spell effects and management as you progressed. These days however, levels come a dime a dozen and I can only imagine a new player quickly getting confused and swamped with the vaste information available to them....depending on what materials they have at hand, how often they play and how much time they're willing to devote to learning this stuff 'out of session'.}

That's maybe a silly example, the scenario I gave above, but I think it demonstrates the simplistic usefulness of versatility particularly at low levels. And without a doubt at high/epic levels. But thats just my personal experience and one of the many reasons I 'prefer' to play a mage to a sorceror. I would certainly not think less of anyone for playing any type of character however. I play D&D cause I like to play as part of a team, in a high-fantasy setting with some very close friends, and I respect and love them for their strengths and their weaknesses regardless of what class they play.

Delanish
2007-02-05, 05:05 PM
Ok, last time i played DND i was a kobolt wizard (level-4) knowing and being preparpied for most siutations is better then just blasting.... Especially when against stuff that's has immunity to magic... or a mage killer.

My party was rushed by 2 Half Orges half orcs , grease a simple level 1 spell castied once stop them in there tracks.. and lert everyone take up the crossbows and see if we can hit orge eyes!

It's more now about... Race now

So far from input most say Gnomes the top runnier human coming in second...

Fax Celestis
2007-02-05, 05:12 PM
Bull. People don't read the Mage of the Arcane Order. Their spellpool ability is limited to core spells + things the DM adds, and, more importantly, can get them a total of [class level] spell levels a day. That's not BAD, no, but it's hardly "zomg cast any spell at a round's notice".

The wizard class is more potentially powerful, and less forgiving. Sorcerers can spontaneously cast and have less micromanagement; they are easier for new players to play. There's no shame in that.

Right. There's a good deal of bookkeeping and plotting that goes into a good wizard. Sorcerors have a little more leeway, since they don't have to plan their day in advance, but in the long-term have to make more accurace decisions.

PS: I'm a Troll! Woo!

Jade_Tarem
2007-02-05, 05:46 PM
;) Okay peace...just so you understand where I was coming from. I loved playing a sorceror and will probably do so again someday but there are huge defining differences between the two particularly in low level and high level campaigns...maybe not so noticeable during the mid-levels.

A perfect example would be an experience we had back in second edition about 8 or so years ago. Based on the Catherine Kerr books we'd travelled from a 'non-magic' society (Deverry) to a new land. Of course sorcerors didn't exist in 2ed, but I was playing my 1st level mage (the one described above no less) when we travelled a few days from this ruined settlement we'd inhabited on the coast of this new land. The first thing we came across was a small, dirty, tribalistic group of people (Orcs) who were cautious of us. They comprised of children and old folk and despite our attempts at communication couldn't understand us and vice versa. (We were from Deverry...we'd never heard of an orc. The strangest thing we'd ever seen was one of the westfolk (elves) and even then it was a short sighting based entirely on trade.) Anyway, I managed to carefully get close enough to one of the elder ones, close enough to touch his hand while passing him some food and cast comp. languages. Thus we began learning of our neighbors, learning their hunters were off foraging/hunting and would be back soon and that they had lived in this small group of caves for many suns.
We also learned that they did not work metal, this particular tribe, however there were other tribes far off who did. Determining they were no threat to us and our establishment...we moved off, leaving them in peace.

Now had my character at the time been a sorceror, I wonder how that meeting and our ensuing peace with that Orc tribe would have come about cause I certainly wouldn't have picked Comp. languages as one of my first spells. :P Without a doubt it would've been magic missile and possibly while we were still trying to communicate to these strange primitive people in a semmingly primitive land: we might've still been there when the men returned...and things may or may not have gotten ugly; completely changing the next couple of months of gameplay.

{Also, though this doesn't stand today with 3.5, it took months of playing, once a week, to gain a level with second edition rules. That gave you alot of time to casually learn spell effects and management as you progressed. These days however, levels come a dime a dozen and I can only imagine a new player quickly getting confused and swamped with the vaste information available to them....depending on what materials they have at hand, how often they play and how much time they're willing to devote to learning this stuff 'out of session'.}

That's maybe a silly example, the scenario I gave above, but I think it demonstrates the simplistic usefulness of versatility particularly at low levels. And without a doubt at high/epic levels. But thats just my personal experience and one of the many reasons I 'prefer' to play a mage to a sorceror. I would certainly not think less of anyone for playing any type of character however. I play D&D cause I like to play as part of a team, in a high-fantasy setting with some very close friends, and I respect and love them for their strengths and their weaknesses regardless of what class they play.

Holy cow... you should make that example into a book: "How comprehend languages saved the day." No sarcasm, serioiusly. I have people in my group who have spit on that spell.:smallsmile:

Despite what I said in the earlier posts, I *usually* play wizards, but it all depends on the flavor of the character I'm making. After my brief love affair with powergaming, which I found to be like cotton candy (fun but not filling, and it gives me toothaches), I try to make charcters based on roleplay concepts. Often the concepts involve a character that's more showy than the typical wizard, and the sorcerer, with his extra supply of ammo, fits the role just fine. I suppose that's what the decision may come down to: preference.

I still maintain that, mechanically, Lantern Archon is the best cheese race for sorcerer.

Melrob
2007-02-06, 09:38 AM
Hah, yeah, though it's probably the only instance I can come up with it being used with such import. Sadly in a high powered game it's just not as needed...but back then, they were the days of flint and steel. People didn't believe in magic, monsters didn't exist. Disputes were settled by shield, sword and javelin. It was the best start to a new campaign I've ever been privy to :)

But yeah, you're right; playing any class is all down to preference. Playing it well, is down to practice, regardless of what class it is.