meta'd magic and wands

[Donny_Green]

Not too long ago I read some where - in one of the handbook I think - that it was possible to craft a wand with a spell that has had meta magic applied to it.

My basic thought is:
Level 1 wands with round/level duration really suck. But a 1st level spell cast with a +1 extend, and by a 3rd level wizard; could increase the duration to not suck so much"

At this point it's pretty much academic, though if true it might be a nice little trick.

The questions I have.... Is it true can meta magic be applied to a wand before during or after the making of the wand? My second question (and much more important question) where are the rules that support or disclaim this ruling?

Hopefully this isn't as edgy as my Wildshape post.

Thanks for all the help, and lots-o-love for this playground.

[Jeff the Green]

Well, yes, they can. Unfortunately it's generally not a good trade off, since they're priced at their adjusted level. So a wand of extended Mage Armor costs the same as a wand of Alter Self.

[Donny_Green]

Well, yes, they can. Unfortunately it's generally not a good trade off, since they're priced at their adjusted level. So a wand of extended Mage Armor costs the same as a wand of Alter Self.

Thank you, but now my second question.... Where is the source for this? DMG PHB? is it an obscurely explained topic?

[Diarmuid]

It's inherent in the basic rules governing crafting items.

Crafting a wand costs 375 * spell level & caster level

Mage Armor is a 1st level spell, so the spell level variable would be 1 when calculating cost.

Extended Mage Armoe is a 2nd level spell, so the spell level variable in that equation would be 2.

There doesnt need to be anything specific to cover these scenarios as it's already covered.

[Donny_Green]

It's inherent in the basic rules governing crafting items.

Crafting a wand costs 375 * spell level & caster level

Mage Armor is a 1st level spell, so the spell level variable would be 1 when calculating cost.

Extended Mage Armoe is a 2nd level spell, so the spell level variable in that equation would be 2.

There doesnt need to be anything specific to cover these scenarios as it's already covered.

Yes there does Dairmuid, as my GM isn't going to take the word of "some guy on the boards".

Now are you sure that I find this sort of thing in "the basic rules governing crafting" or is that just where you think it is?

Even a link to one of the writers in Wizard, is better than "take my word for it". Books, and page numbers are still the best though.

[HunterOfJello]

Even a link to one of the writers in Wizard, is better than "take my word for it". Books, and page numbers are still the best though.

Whether metamagic can be placed on a wand or not is covered in the DMG on page 246. It at least allows Heighten Spell.

The table itself contains 4 examples of wands that have spells with Heighten Spell metamagic on them. It has Charm Person, Hold Person, Suggestion, and Ray of Enfeeblement. On the examples it has both the caster level and spell level increased as far as the price of the item is concerned.

Charm Person (level 1) is set up as 750 x 1 x 1

Heightened Charm Person (level 3) is set up as 750 x 3 x 5

~~~~~~~~~


The SRD has a reference to the rules surrounding the concept here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm).


Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal.

~

There are also specific items that allow you to use metamagic on wands and other items. The metamagic wand grip is a prime example.

[Karnith]

Yes there does Dairmuid, as my GM isn't going to take the word of "some guy on the boards".

Now are you sure that I find this sort of thing in "the basic rules governing crafting" or is that just where you think it is?

Even a link to one of the writers in Wizard, is better than "take my word for it". Books, and page numbers are still the best though.
In addition to the section on metamagic in the crafting rules (DMG, pp. 282-283), the concept is mentioned in the rules for metamagic feats. Per the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#magicItemsandMetamagicSpells) (with a corresponding section in the PHB on p. 88):

With the right item creation feat, you can store a metamagic version of a spell in a scroll, potion, or wand. Level limits for potions and wands apply to the spell’s higher spell level (after the application of the metamagic feat). A character doesn’t need the metamagic feat to activate an item storing a metamagic version of a spell.

[Donny_Green]

Thank you both.. that's the kind of information I can use.

[Jack_Simth]

Not too long ago I read some where - in one of the handbook I think - that it was possible to craft a wand with a spell that has had meta magic applied to it.

My basic thought is:
Level 1 wands with round/level duration really suck. But a 1st level spell cast with a +1 extend, and by a 3rd level wizard; could increase the duration to not suck so much"

At this point it's pretty much academic, though if true it might be a nice little trick.

The questions I have.... Is it true can meta magic be applied to a wand before during or after the making of the wand? My second question (and much more important question) where are the rules that support or disclaim this ruling?

Hopefully this isn't as edgy as my Wildshape post.

Thanks for all the help, and lots-o-love for this playground.
Check out the Metamagic Feat Header (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#metamagicFeats) - towards the end, there's a section that's useful to you:

Magic Items and Metamagic Spells

With the right item creation feat, you can store a metamagic version of a spell in a scroll, potion, or wand. Level limits for potions and wands apply to the spell’s higher spell level (after the application of the metamagic feat). A character doesn’t need the metamagic feat to activate an item storing a metamagic version of a spell.

[Donny_Green]

They way this is reading, I can apply the same rules to the eternal wands.

[ericgrau]

From the above quotations I'd say so.

24 hour buffs are precisely what eternal wands are good for. You can keep the same buff up all month without worrying about whether or not you'll fight anything each day.

[Jack_Simth]

From the above quotations I'd say so.

24 hour buffs are precisely what eternal wands are good for. You can keep the same buff up all month without worrying about whether or not you'll fight anything each day.
Yes, but low-level 24 hour spells that fit in Eternal Wands are generally pretty lackluster. It's good for, say, an Extended Rope Trick (which you'll cast every day), Explosive Runes gets hilarious, and Secret Page can be used for some interesting tricks. Mostly, though, you're looking at... what, Endure Elements, Magic Aura, and maybe the Bard's Undetectable Alignment?

[ericgrau]

level 1-3 are precisely the ones you want up 24 hours since they're cheap. Mage armor, false life, unseen servant, greater magic weapon. Never underestimate endless stacking of things that don't eat a combat action.

It's too bad you can't extend GMW on an eternal wand though. Better prepare it and lesser rod of extend spell it. The eternal wands are especially useful on those who dip or UMD for wand access since they might not have so many spare spells to blow. Or full casters who want to stack 20 buffs on the entire party.

I also found longstrider, luminous armor, greater mage armor, obscuring snow + snowsight, shield other, wings of swift flying and wood wose. Not counting dozens of situational spells.

Obscuring snow + snowsight (snow field + I see in snow fields) is close to broken. It's total concealment from a 1st and 2nd level spell. Not only 50% miss chance, but hard to even find your square. Except it's harder for allies to be near you, and there are a handful of specific counters. Though see invisibility and true seeing are not counters against it. Also it looks cool on an ice themed mage.

[Jack_Simth]

level 1-3 are precisely the ones you want up 24 hours since they're cheap. Mage armor, false life, unseen servant, greater magic weapon. Never underestimate endless stacking of things that don't eat a combat action.You didn't catch my intent.

The caster level on eternal wands is fixed by the type of wand. Mage Armor is a 1st level spell that lasts hours/level. Extend it, and it lasts 6 hours/charge. You'll need at least two Eternal wands of Extended Mage Armor... and at 8,840 gp to get two of them, you might as well pick up Bracers of Armor+4 - less fuss, and they recover a lot more readily in case of Dispel. Plus you can upgrade Bracers of Armor later very easily. An Eternal Wand of Extended Mage Armor... most you can do is sell it later. They're not upgradable in the same manner.

Most of the things you list are similar. They're not 24 hour buffs when pulled from an Eternal Wand.

[ericgrau]

Ah a lesser rod of extend spell and pearls of power are better then. At least on a full caster. Only 4,000-5,000 gp. Still I'd rather pay half than worry about dispel. Let's see, an extended false life is 10,900 gp for 20 hours. Vs. 7,000 gp for rod+pearl. Same situation.

For that matter an action is worth more than 4 AC. The entire advantage of 24 hour buffs is that they didn't cost you a combat action. If your DM notices and has a foe blow an action to give them a partial chance of removing your buff, you've come out even further ahead and suddenly this tactic becomes way better.

Hmm since rods and pearls are cheaper, are eternal wands good for anything at all? They suck for just about all other uses compared to wands. If you're not using an always-on application nobody will ever use them on 25 different days meaning you'll get more out of a 50 charge item. I suppose that leaves only UMD or caster dip 24 hour buffs for those who aren't full casters.

[Jack_Simth]

Hmm since rods and pearls are cheaper, are eternal wands good for anything at all? They suck for just about all other uses compared to wands. If you're not using an always-on application nobody will ever use them on 25 different days meaning you'll get more out of a 50 charge item. I suppose that leaves only UMD or caster dip 24 hour buffs for those who aren't full casters.
Oh, they definitely have their place on a reasonable-optimization character. 1/day or 2/day utility spells (like, say, Extended Rope Trick) on characters that either won't or can't cast it natively (and yes, it is entirely possible to want to sleep in a Rope Trick every night). A Generalist Wizard-5, for instance, might want an Eternal Wand of Extended Rope Trick (3rd level spell) so he can use his 3rd level slots on Fly and Stinking Cloud. A Sorcerer (of any level) might not want to waste a spell slot on a spell that the Sorcerer is only going to cast once or twice a day; for that Sorcerer, an Eternal Wand of Extended Rope Trick is a worthwhile investment, as is Extended Magic Aura (6 days a use, 2 uses per wand, 12 items covered per wand... at least until the next dispel), Explosive Runes (I'm sure we all know the cheddar that goes with that by now), or an Extended Alarm (12 hours/use, good for camping). Note that those wands will stay useful at higher levels, as they're utility effects (with the exception of Explosive Runes).

For a character that's not full casters (or are not arcane full casters), well, you'd use Eternal Wands pretty much like you'd expect - spells you plan to use regularly, but not several times in a day.

They have their place, but by and large, they're really not all that useful for all-day buffs due to the caster level issue.

[Captnq]

HERE (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4571.msg63785#msg63785).

That should give you some good examples.

[ericgrau]

Oh, they definitely have their place on a reasonable-optimization character. 1/day or 2/day utility spells (like, say, Extended Rope Trick) on characters that either won't or can't cast it natively (and yes, it is entirely possible to want to sleep in a Rope Trick every night). A Generalist Wizard-5, for instance, might want an Eternal Wand of Extended Rope Trick (3rd level spell) so he can use his 3rd level slots on Fly and Stinking Cloud. A Sorcerer (of any level) might not want to waste a spell slot on a spell that the Sorcerer is only going to cast once or twice a day; for that Sorcerer, an Eternal Wand of Extended Rope Trick is a worthwhile investment, as is Extended Magic Aura (6 days a use, 2 uses per wand, 12 items covered per wand... at least until the next dispel), Explosive Runes (I'm sure we all know the cheddar that goes with that by now), or an Extended Alarm (12 hours/use, good for camping). Note that those wands will stay useful at higher levels, as they're utility effects (with the exception of Explosive Runes).

For a character that's not full casters (or are not arcane full casters), well, you'd use Eternal Wands pretty much like you'd expect - spells you plan to use regularly, but not several times in a day.

They have their place, but by and large, they're really not all that useful for all-day buffs due to the caster level issue.
I meant that a pearl of power and a rod of lesser extend spell is cheaper than an eternal wand of extended rope trick.

[Bakkan]

I meant that a pearl of power and a rod of lesser extend spell is cheaper than an eternal wand of extended rope trick.

The problem with the pearl of power method is that it only gives you back the same spell. So you're still stuck with a rope trick (e.g.) in your prepared spells that isn't going to be useful.

[Jack_Simth]

I meant that a pearl of power and a rod of lesser extend spell is cheaper than an eternal wand of extended rope trick.
It is. But then you're stuck with two copies of Rope Trick, and you're usually only going to use the one.

With an Eternal Wand of Extended Rope Trick, however, you can use those second or 3rd level spell slots for something else, like Web, Glitterdust, or Cloud of Bewilderment.

[zingbobco000]

I see that nobody has spoken about the incantrix 4 ability to apply metamagic to wands w/out increasing the spell level? Totally worth it if your a sorc not so much as wizard but still useful.