Help! I need a fun gish build

[Wacky89]

Hi guys, looking for a fun and entertaining gish build. If some1 have a really cool idea I would be most appreciative!

All books/drag mags except dragonlance & eberron.

[Dr. Azkur]

How about:

Stalwart Battle Sorcerer: The Stalwart Sorcerer ACF meshes very well with the Battle Sorcerer variant because you don't lose any spells and gain a ton of hitpoints. It's definitely not the most optimized way to go, but hey, you're doing a gish so that's not your primary concern now, is it? This is an instant microwave gish, you can go for it without much thought...


Duskblade: The other gish-in-a-can. I like it. Add Versatile Spellcaster, Arcane Strike and Knowledge Devotion. You can't go wrong with this.


Duskblade 4/Warblade 2/Jade Phoenix Mage 10: Ok so the Jade Phoenix Mage is awesome, anyone will have a hard time getting a better gish PrC, cause it combines ToB with arcane magic.

My personal take at the JPM is going with duskblade, so you've got a gish inside a gish. Why is this any good? Because the best class features the Duskblade has are on the first four levels, it has full BAB while also getting it's own spells from first level, which the JPM will advance very decently. You lose 4 levels worth of spellcasting across your career, which is a shame, but you have no 9th level spells to wait for anyway (Get Practiced Spellcaster if you're worried about spell DC).
One of my favorite synergies is that the duskblade has a ****ton of spells to spare (much more than average), which you can gladly spare for the nifty spell-burning stances from JPM.

Finally, the Warblade gives a nice use to Int, even more if you decide to continue it after Phoenix Mage rather than Duskblade.


EDIT: Warlock 2/Sorcerer 1/Warlock 1/Eldritch Theurge 10: Eldritch Theurge is one of my favorite PrCs because the Sorcerer is my favorite arcanist, and the Warlock is my favorite class, and this is how they come together in perfect harmony.

Here's the deal: Get Precocious Apprentice as your 3rd level feat to qualify with 1 Sorcerer level.

Eldritch Theurge has a shameful d4 for a HD... yeah, that's not good for anyone, specially a gish. So you do the sensible thing: you die. Don't worry, you'll raise back up, cause the point is to become a Necropolitan! Instant d12 and sexy immunities for everyone! Yay!!! So there you go, less health problems (As in no health at all).
(Note taking Necropolitan completely forbids you from using Hellfire)

...But still Medium BAB. Sucks, right? Well no problem, the whole point of this build is to get the Eldritch Glaive from the very first level, which targets Touch AC. No need for sky high BAB anymore.

Eldritch Glaive is awesome. And there is why this is a gish build. Thanks to Spellblast (Eldritch Theurge 3) you now apply spells to your eldritch blast.
Remember to ask your DM if you can apply Power Attack to Eldritch Glaive.

[If you like this option then check this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159708) out. Specially the Mobility section.


What's that? You're very into Wuxia AND Psionics? You're in luck. There is no monk build like Monk 1/Psychic Warrior 19 with Talashatora. Simple. Effective. Awesome as it ever gets. Psionic Kung Fu gish like no other.

[Wacky89]

looks good, thanks a lot for the ideas.
Any other builds?

Duskblade 4/Warblade 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 10

as far as I can see it requires 9 ranks in a skill. So you would enter 1 level later

Warlock 2/Sorcerer 1/Warlock 1/Eldritch Theurge 10

same with this build :P requries 8 in skills.

[Dr. Azkur]

I edited two more into the post and may keep doing it if I come up with more.

EDIT: Huh I got those numbers mixed up. You're right. Warblade 2 it is then, uncanny dodge is always nice to have, one extra maneuver, +1 initiator level.

[Yorrin]

You could always go with a classic Sorcadin.

Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8

9th lvl spells and 16 BAB

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Both stalwart and battle sorcerer are terrible traps. The benefits only last while you take sorcerer levels, but the penalties on spells per day/known are permanent - and sorcerers don't know enough as is.

I'm personally a big fan of Wu Jen 5/Warblade or Crusader 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 10/Archmage 1/Abjurant Champion 3, using Archmage to grab Giant Size as an SLA. Gets 17th level casting and 16 BAB with fractional BAB in place. Pop Body Outside Body clones, have them explode before they expire with JPM and use your Maneuvers and Giant Size before then. You can get it to work without fractional BAB, but it means jumping through hoops to get into JPM a level early, Ruathar early, or other good BAB/full-casting classes.

EDIT: Spell errors corrected now that I'm back on an actual computer.

[Nihilarian]

Duskblade 3/x2/Chameleon 10 is my favorite. Channel any spell from any list up to 6th level.

[Dr. Azkur]

Both stalwart and battle sorcerer are terrible traps. The benefitts only last wwhile you take sorcerer levels, but tthe penalties on spells per day/known are pemanent - and sorcerers don't know enough as is.

Ah stop it, it's not the end of the world. SB Sorcerer is still a very respectable option. It doesn't even move it down a tier. (+Stalwart is bad on its own but when applied to Battle it loses nothing at all)

[Wacky89]

Duskblade 3/x2/Chameleon 10 is my favorite. Channel any spell from any list up to 6th level.

this looks kinda cool, what would you recommend as the x2?

[Haldir]

Mystic Ranger 9/ Bard 1/ Sublime Chord1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Any Full Casting PRC 4.

Required Feats- Alternate Source Spell, Sword of the Arcane Order.

You'll never find a gish with better spellcasting. Divine and Arcane spells, light armor while casting, decent buff abilities from every class.

Cast Fist of Stone (or have it on a wand, and I highly recommend Dual Wand Wielding and Metamagic Wand Grips) for +6 STR enhancement every fight and save yourself the trouble of buying an item for it (and allowing a reasonable dump for it.)

Really this is all you need, since optimizing melee in 3.5 essentially comes down to "Did you take power attack?" and "how much can you buff before power attack?"

[Yorrin]

You'll never find a gish with better spellcasting
Divine Power and every Cleric ever would like a word with you...


Really this is all you need, since optimizing melee in 3.5 essentially comes down to "Did you take power attack?" and "how much can you buff before power attack?"
You've never read any high end TO, have you?

[Dr. Azkur]

Really this is all you need, since optimizing melee in 3.5 essentially comes down to "Did you take power attack?" and "how much can you buff before power attack?"
I am personally offended by this statement.

[Haldir]

Divine Power and every Cleric ever would like a word with you...

You've never read any high end TO, have you?

Yeah, you mean those classes that have become defined by the ability to do everything, yes I am quite aware of them. Thank you for pointing out that they can do everything.

Even so, taking Sacred Exorcist in any build can get you access to Divine Power. SacEx notwithstanding, I'm still going to argue that my build has better spellcasting than Cleric, as it grants access to the Sorc/Wiz list, which in my opinion is the stronger of the two. Divine Power is a waste of time on my build until level 10, at which point BAB has become less relevant anyway.

So tell me again how a cleric with a 4th level spell slot is doing better than my Ranger with a 1st? Or do you really value temporary HP that much? Yes, at 10, a cleric using Divine power will have +1 BAB and some extra HP, but my Ranger has an extra level 4 slot. Totes worth.

As for melee optimization, you can say all you want, but in the end it's all about bumping up PA. Take Leap Attack and Shock Trooper if you want, but past level 10 the "run in and hit stuff" strategy usually only nets you the ever-so-fun task of rolling a save. Better to use spells to make sure you're going to get where you need than to waste half a build creating a glorified kamikaze.

I suppose I need to clarify. In my mind the primary goal of optimization is to make a character that can achieve a task. You can build a character that deals thousands of damage with a greatsword, but he's not optimized because the likelyhood of him landing it against an equally skilled casting-based opponent is silly-improbable.

[Dr. Azkur]

>Implying melee involves Übercharging exclusively.

HHHNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN-
-NNNNNNNNhnhgNNNNGGG.

I'm out.

[Nihilarian]

this looks kinda cool, what would you recommend as the x2?The best is probably a 1 level dip into cloistered cleric (with the trickery domain) followed by literally anything else. You don't even need BAB because you can cast Divine Power. Incarnate, Swordsage, Totemist or Warblade, most likely.

[Yorrin]

So tell me again how a cleric with a 4th level spell slot is doing better than my Ranger with a 1st? Or do you really value temporary HP that much? Yes, at 10, a cleric using Divine power will have +1 BAB and some extra HP, but my Ranger has an extra level 4 slot. Totes worth
Because it's not just one fourth level spell slot. It's a whole bunch. Which can be used for things like Freedom of Movement, or Spell Immunity, or Lesser Planar Ally.


As for melee optimization, you can say all you want, but in the end it's all about bumping up PA. Take Leap Attack and Shock Trooper if you want, but past level 10 the "run in and hit stuff" strategy usually only nets you the ever-so-fun task of rolling a save. Better to use spells to make sure you're going to get where you need than to waste half a build creating a glorified kamikaze.
Except you're forgetting stuff like obtaining Pounce, or learning to Trip/Bull Rush when not charging, or stuff with reach/lockdown, or even the other major source of melee damage optimization: natural attacks. There are several dimensions to melee optimization.

[Nihilarian]

Even so, taking Sacred Exorcist in any build can get you access to Divine Power. How's that?

[Piggy Knowles]

As was mentioned, Chameleons make fantastic gishes. I'd recommend...

Cloistered Cleric 1/Duskblade 3/Spellthief 1/Chameleon 10/Abjurant Champion 5
(Trickery, Planning and Knowledge domains)

Cloistered cleric plus the Trickery domain gives you the necessary skills to easily qualify for Chameleon, plus Knowledge Devotion and Extend Spell as bonus feats, and a pool of turning to qualify for Divine Metamagic. Duskblade lets you use the Chameleon's divine side for buffing and arcane side for channeling spells. Spellthief gives you some nice and easy bonus damage, and eventually lets you qualify for Master Spellthief, for a meaty CL boost and the ability to steal spells.

I'm also super fond of A_S's gish tank:


The Tank
A gish designed with defense in mind. The early Duskblade chassis adds durability (compared to a character who starts off with Wizard levels or similar). Access to a bunch of immediate action defensive spells helps out survivability, and eventually, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil (you get all seven levels of class features) gives you immediate action "no" buttons that can protect both you and the rest of your party from basically everything.

I envision this character as an urban street kid who got by as a petty carnival magician (thus the Apprentice feat), but had to join the army to get out of a tight spot, and came back badass.

-----

Race: Human

Stats (28 point buy):
Str: 14
Dex: 8
Con: 14
Int: 16
Wis: 8
Cha: 14 > 19

Level Progression:
1 - Duskblade 1 - Apprentice (Entertainer), Power Attack
2 - Duskblade 2 - Combat Casting (b)
3 - Duskblade 3 - Cleave
4 - Duskblade 4 - Cha 15
5 - Duskblade 5
6 - Abjurant Champion 1 - Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
7 - Abjurant Champion 2
8 - Abjurant Champion 3 - Cha 16
9 - Warrior Skald 1 - Spell Focus (Abjuration)
10 - Abjurant Champion 4
11 - Sublime Chord 1
12 - Abjurant Champion 5 - Greater Spell Focus (Abjuration), Cha 17
13 - Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 1
14 - Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 2
15 - Legacy Champion 1 - Arcane Strike
16 - Legacy Champion 2 - Cha 18
17 - Legacy Champion 3
18 - Legacy Champion 4 - Practiced Spellcaster (Sublime Chord), Channel Legacy
19 - Legacy Champion 5
20 - Legacy Champion 6 - Cha 19

ACF: Skilled City-Dweller (Ride > Tumble)

Skills:

1 (24) - Knowledge (arcana) 4, Knowledge (history) 4, Knowledge (nature) 4, Perform (poetry) 4, Perform (sing) 4, Spellcraft 4
2 (6) - Knowledge (arcana) 5, Knowledge (history) 5, Listen .5 (cc), Perform (poetry) 5, Perform (sing) 5, Spellcraft 5
3 (6) - Knowledge (arcana) 6, Listen 1.5 (cc), Perform (poetry) 6, Perform (sing) 6, Spellcraft 6
4 (6) - Knowledge (arcana) 7, Listen 3 (cc), Perform (poetry) 7, Perform (sing) 7
5 (6) - Knowledge (arcana) 8, Listen 4 (cc), Perform (poetry) 8, Perform (sing) 8, Profession (astrologer) .5 (cc)
6 (6) - Knowledge (arcana) 9, Listen 4.5 (cc), Perform (poetry) 8.5 (cc), Perform (sing) 9 (cc), Profession (astrologer) 1 (cc)
7 (6) - Knowledge (arcana) 10, Listen 5 (cc), Perform (poetry) 9 (cc), Perform (sing) 10 (cc), Profession (astrologer) 1.5 (cc)
8 (6) - Knowledge (arcana) 11, Profession (astrologer) 4 (cc)
9 (8) - Listen 12, Profession (astrologer) 5
10 (6) - Knowledge (arcana) 13, Listen 13 (cc), Profession (astrologer) 6 (cc)
11 (8) - Concentration 8
12 (6) - Spellcraft 12
13 (6) - Concentration 14
14 (6) - Balance 1.5 (cc), Concentration 17
15 (8) - Balance 5 (cc), Concentration 18
16 (8) - Concentration 19, Spellcraft 18, Tumble 1
17 (8) - Concentration 20, Listen 18, Spellcraft 20
18 (8) - Concentration 21, Listen 21, Spellcraft 21, Tumble 4
19 (8) - Concentration 22, Listen 22, Knowledge (dungeoneering) 1, Knowledge (local) 1, Spellcraft 22, Tumble 5, SKILL TRICK: Collector of Stories
20 (8) - Concentration 23, Knowledge (religion) 1, Knowledge (the planes) 1, Listen 23, Spellcraft 23, Use Magic Device 1, SKILL TRICK: Twisted Charge

Balance: 5
Concentration: 23
Knowledge (arcana): 13
Knowledge (dungeoneering): 1
Knowledge (history): 5
Knowledge (local): 1
Knowledge (nature): 4
Knowledge (religion): 1
Knowledge (the planes): 1
Listen: 23
Perform (poetry): 9
Perform (sing): 10
Profession (astrologer): 6
Spellcraft: 23
Tumble: 5
Use Magic Device: 1

Skill Tricks: Collector of Stories, Twisted Charge

Base Saves:
Fort: +9
Ref: +6
Will: +18

Notable Spells:
-Immediate action defensive spells (Deflect, Ruin Delver's Fortune, Greater Mirror Image, etc.)
-Buffs (Bite of the X, Ironguard, Mind Blank, etc.)
-Channelable goodies (Night's Caress for straight damage, Irresistable Dance two spell levels early via the Bard list)

Notable Items:
-A legacy item (Faithful Avenger is probably the best published option, but custom would be preferable)
-Novice Rings of the Diamond Mind to get Mind over Body and Action Before Thought to shore up weaker saves.
-All the standard stuff.

[Haldir]

How's that?

It doesn't, I confused it with a much worse PrC that grants the War Domain. Apologies.


In response to pounce, tripping, reach, etc.- None of these things are useful to a good caster, or against it. You have not optimized anything, you have simply lowered the bar to a level where melee classes can reach it.

It is simply not a practical way to fight once you are smart enough to use physics to fight from a distance. I'm sorry if that disturbs your ideas about the game, but facts is facts.

[Wacky89]

As was mentioned, Chameleons make fantastic gishes. I'd recommend...

Cloistered Cleric 1/Duskblade 3/Spellthief 1/Chameleon 10/Abjurant Champion 5
(Trickery, Planning and Knowledge domains)

Cloistered cleric plus the Trickery domain gives you the necessary skills to easily qualify for Chameleon, plus Knowledge Devotion and Extend Spell as bonus feats, and a pool of turning to qualify for Divine Metamagic. Duskblade lets you use the Chameleon's divine side for buffing and arcane side for channeling spells. Spellthief gives you some nice and easy bonus damage, and eventually lets you qualify for Master Spellthief, for a meaty CL boost and the ability to steal spells.

Would this build work?
Dragonwrought (Silver for Disguise) Spellhoarding Kobold
Stallwart Battle Sorcerer 5 (losing nothing since sorcerer levels gets converted to wiz)
then into chameleon

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I have two go-to gish builds that are both fairly standard:

Sorcadin
Illumian (Naenhoon) Paladin 2/ Sorcerer 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 8. Get Arcane Preparation to use Sanctified spells (Greater Luminous Armor), Ancestral Relic to do this trick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267805#4), and take Persistent Spell by 12th level to use with Naenhoon.

Wizard Gish:
Human Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#humanParagon) 1/ Fighter 1/ Martial Wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) 2/ Human Paragon 2/ Spellsword 1/ Incantatrix 4/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch Knight 4. Get Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) at 3rd and invest every skill rank you can to get the greatest return toward Spellcraft, and take ten on the checks to use Metamagic Effect and Cooperative Metamagic to persist your buffs. Note that you can use Cooperative Metamagic on your own spells outside combat as the action economy system only exists during initiative.

In either case, try to get Practiced Spellcaster, Power Attack, Minor Shapeshift, Arcane Strike, Combat Reflexes, etc.

[Piggy Knowles]

It would, although I still like cloistered cleric for access to DMM and a few handy bonus feats.

If you are going wizard into Chameleon, one very nice trick is to take Spell Mastery and Uncanny Forethought. Uncanny Forethought works with any prepared spell, arcane or divine. Using it on the Chameleon's divine side lets you cast more or less any divine spell of up to 6th-level as a full round action. Alternatively, you can use your floating feat to pick up new iterations of Spell Mastery, and do it as a standard action.

[Incanur]

I'm personally a big fan of Wu Jen 5/Warblade or Crusader 1/Jade Pheonix Mage 10/Archmage 1/Abjurant Champion 3, using Archmmage to grab Giant Size as an SLA. Gets 17th level casting and 16 BAB with fractional BAB in place. Pop Body Outside Body clones, have them explode before they expire with JPM and use your Maneuvers and Giant Size before then. You can get it to work thout fractional BAB, but it means jumping through hoops to get into JPM a level early, Ruathar early, or other good BAB/fullcasting classes.

Yeah, I think this is about as awesome as gish builds get. Not necessarily the most powerful - though plenty powerful - but overwhelmingly cool. It's harder to play than some other builds at the lower levels but goes nuts once you get giant size and other such nonsense. Growing to a hundred-feet tall, copying yourself, and exploding in arcane flames makes for a difficult act to top.

For a generic and flexible gish that's more potent early on, I recommend crusader 1/conjurer 5/eldritch knight 8/spellsword 1/abjurant champion 5 for CL 18, BAB 17. Taking abrupt jaunt and the Unearthed Arcana variant to get two fighter feats from the conjurer levels makes the low levels easier. This way at level 2 (cru 1/conj 1) you can teleport around and get Improved Initiative as a bonus feat while tripping and tanking as a crusader. You can take focused specialist too if desired, for lots of spells. Focused specialist perhaps becomes weaker later on, but at that point you can just burn the slots on Arcane Strike and/or the abjurant champion ability.

Another option is to build around the abjurant champion's capstone ability and focus on fighting more than casting. For example: duskblade 5/transmuter 1/abjurant champion 5/swiftblade 9. That gets you 19 BAB, 6th-level spells effective CL 19, and lots of goodies. The first five levels can be almost any full-BAB class, too; duskblade just maintains the gish feeling throughout and supplies Combat Casting. You can do crusader 1/fighter1/duskblade 2/warblade 1 instead, or whatever.

[Petrocorus]

Look in my sig for my list of Paladin builds. Most of them are gishes.

[Vrock_Summoner]

Kuo-tua, using... I think it was Pathfinder's?... gun alteration rules to use it for ranged improvised weapons in order to shoot fish at your opponent. Fine fish for a pistol, maybe tiny for a small-sized hand cannon which you could wield as a medium creature? If the rule functions for firearms in general, you could probably fire Medium or even Large fish if you use size-changing tricks to make yourself and your hand cannon big enough. Then just paint your weapon of choice like a fish.

... Oh, wait. You said "fun gish". I swear I read it as "gun fish". In that case, (Gray/Fire) Elf Warblade 3/Wizard 3/Jade Phoenix Mage 4/Swiftblade 10. No 9ths or anything, but oodles of fun.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Ah stop it, it's not the end of the world. SB Sorcerer is still a very respectable option. It doesn't even move it down a tier. (+Stalwart is bad on its own but when applied to Battle it loses nothing at all)

It still hurts something fierce having only one spell known from your highest level, which is beyond atrocious even using Biffoniacus_Furiou's Ancestral Relic trick. It also still does nothing about the fact that the second you stop taking sorcerer levels you lose all of those benefits. It just is not worth it.


Yeah, I think this is about as awesome as gish builds get. Not necessarily the most powerful - though plenty powerful - but overwhelmingly cool. It's harder to play than some other builds at the lower levels but goes nuts once you get giant size and other such nonsense. Growing to a hundred-feet tall, copying yourself, and exploding in arcane flames makes for a difficult act to top.

It's a personal favorite of mine, especially considering how the default fluff of the Wu Jen and JPM classes mesh together. Having disposable "yous" to throw around doesn't hurt any, either, considering they can do all of your nonmagical stuff and even some of the magical tricks.

I'm also partial to the rather simple Wizard 6/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champion 5 using some variety of elf or outsider to meet the martial weapon requirements, possibly adding the aforementioned martial wizard variant for the other feat requirements, too.

[Mjollnir075]

This is my dream build. If I could play in a high level gestalt game, it would be this. Technically it's not entirely legal as per the gestalt rules to take the levels as-is, but it might be possible if you keep switching around which levels you take.

Cleric 10/Runecaster 10 (Players Guide to Faerun)//Crusader 10/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10.

All the buffs you could ever want as permanent runes, which you carry about on a necklace, on your weapons hilt and on your armor. Full casting and full Maneuvers. If a DM doesnt like the double dipping divine casting, ask to give it up on the RKV, seeing as you wont need it.

Alternatively, try this for extra craziness

Crusader 1/Cleric 4/Runecaster 8/RKV 7 // Bard 4/Warblade 16

That should get you:
9th level Divine casting, Permanent, Maximized Runecrafting (which is IMMENSE, you should look into The Runecaster Handbook by Saintheart (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=296106)), Pouncing (if you take Travel Devotion, use Divine Impetus from RKV and get swift action moves all day), 7th level Crusader Maneuvers, Dragonfire Inspiration (+Xd6's to attacks) and 9th level Warblade Maneuvers. Oh, and I guess you get some low level spells from Bard (Glibness, Haste, yada yada.)

Pretty much run train on all the fools who stand before you.

[TrueJordan]

Are druids still considered gishes? Because I'd wholeheartedly recommend:
Druid 20- awesome, 'nuff said
Druid 5/Planar Shepherd 10/ Druid 5 if you want you DM to throw books at you
Druid 5/Master of many forms 10/Barbarian (Lion totem) 5

That said, I dunno how 'gishy' these are, but can be immensely fun with the correct amount of optimization.