Monk Swordsage Build: Advice or tweaks?

[Alagos]

Hello all,

I've completely changed angles on how I want my build to go, so I decided to just edit the post with all the changes.

Playing in Forgotten Realms.
Restricted to 3.0/3.5 material, any WotC official resources.

Alagos is a DEX based monk/swordsage focused primarily on battlefield control and manipulation. His favored schools are Shadow Hand, Setting Sun, Stone Dragon and Diamond Mind. Each maneuver picked from these disciplines is working towards complete mastery over positioning and action economy. His main role will be to divert the offensive of his enemies away from the more vulnerable members of his party, and throw them towards his fellow warriors. Tripping plays a key role in this tactic, as do all the Setting Sun throws and other myriad maneuvers from the other disciplines. Shadow Hand plays a key role in reconnaissance and stealth. His goal will be to either neutralize the threat immediately, or call for aid while throwing them into vulnerable positions. Diamond Mind allows for greater defensive capabilities, as well as a highly damaging attack and neutralizing strike. Attacks of opportunity will also be a focus. So without further ado, the build!

Monk 2 / Swordsage 1 / Monk 6 / Swordsage 4 / Shadow Sun Ninja 1 / Swordsage 13

Notes:
-Levels 1 and 2 are set in stone, as the campaign has already begun. Everything else beyond that point is fair game.
-Using the unarmed swordsage variant
-Party members include a cleric, sorcerer, and fighter/cleric.

Feats and Class Abilities:
Monk 1) Feat: Improved Grapple, Flurry of Blows, Stunning Blow, WIS to AC,
Monk 2) Bonus Feat: Combat Reflexes, Evasion
SS 1) Feat: Shadow Blade, Quick to Act +1 initiative, Discipline Focus: Shadow Hand
Monk 3) Skill Trick: Twisted Charge, Still Mind, Fast Movement 40ft
Monk 4) Slow Fall 20ft, Ki Strike
Monk 5) Feat: Adaptive Style, Purity of Body, Improved Flurry of Blows, +1 AC Bonus
Monk 6) Bonus Feat: Improved Tripping, Fast Movement 50ft, Slow Fall 30ft
SS 3) Feat: Knockdown, Skill Trick: Acrobatic Backstab
SS 4) Insightful Strike: Setting Sun
Shadow Sun Ninja 1) Monk Abilities +1, Touch of the Shadow Sun
SS 5) Feat: Sun School, Quick to Act +2 initiative
SS 7) Sense Magic
SS 8) Feat: Robilar's Gambit, Defensive Stance: Shadow Hand
SS 9) Evasion (improved? debatable)
SS 10) Quick to Act +3 initiative
SS 11) Feat: Unsure
SS 12) Insightful Strike: Diamond Mind

Maneuvers and Stances, based on Swordsage/SSNinja Levels
1) Stance: Child of Shadows, Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Wolf Fang Strike, Sudden Leap, Mighty Throw, Charging Minotaur, Shadow Blade Technique
2) Stance: Assassin's Stance, Cloak of Deception
3) Mind Over Body
4) Comet Throw, Mountain Hammer (swap with Wolf Fang Strike)
SS Ninja 1) Obscuring Shadow Veil
5) Stance: Shifting Defense, Shadow Stride
6) Disrupting Blow, Soaring Throw (swap with Charging Minotaur)
7) Ballista Throw
8) Crushing Vise, Mirrored Pursuit (swap with Shadow Blade Technique)
9) Stance: Hearing the Air, Shadow Blink
10) Colossus Strike, Death in the Dark (swap with Sapphire Nightmare Blade)
11) Diamond Defense
12) Diamond Nightmare Blade, Ancient Mountain Hammer (swap with Mountain Hammer)
13) Tornado Throw

Why I picked Monk to 6, and Shadow Sun Ninja:

While I was hesitant to consider this option before, it feels like it works out in the end. I get Improved Trip, which is a feat I've been wanting in my build since I started. I can therefore pick Knockback at level 9, which can work on any attack I do over 10 damage on. Pretty much any strike will trigger it, and I plan on gaining AoO's quite often later on. I get a minimum 50ft movement speed, which combined with strikes and throws will work incredibly well. I get improved flurry at level 5, which can help somewhat. Slow Fall, Purity of Body, and Still Mind are not so great, but it can't hurt to have them. Ki Strike could be handy..somehow. Also, high saves. Shadow Sun Ninja grants me the very useful Touch of The Shadow Sun. It's essentially a lifedrain, that I can use for either myself or my allies as a swift action. I get one less maneuver to choose from, but I feel it's worth it just for the benefits in survivability.

I arranged the levels so that my initiator levels would coincide well with stance and maneuver selection early on. Though I'd be sticking with monk until level 7, I would still have 6 maneuvers and a very nice defensive stance to work with until that time, as well as Shadow Blade and Adaptive Style. It should sustain me until I pick up full initiator levels again later on.

Feat Walkthrough: Based on Character Level (CL)

1) Improved Grapple: I picked this at the beginning not realizing just how limiting a grappling build could become later on in the game. This choice is permanent, but at least it gives me another option of offense. If I really need to shut an enemy down, I can pin them. Though I don't expect it to be useful later on.
2) Combat Reflexes: AoOs. Robilar's. Tripping attempts with said AoO's. Works beautifully with the Shifting Defense stance, allowing me to step out of the way of full attacks with ease. Gives me many options to choose from.
3 - Shadow Blade: This focuses my stats primarily on DEX for doing damage. All the Setting Sun throws can be executed with your DEX modifier instead of STR. My STR will still be high enough to hit and succeed on normal trip attempts, but it won't be excessive. And I will remain within a Shadow Hand stance for most of my career, either for mobile defense, burst damage or recon.
5 - Twisted Charge Skill Trick: Handy to have if I want to make a short range charge that involves some turning. Gets me that +2 to attack.
6 - Adaptive Style: Pretty much a must-have for swordsages, as their recovery mechanic is terrible. A necessary feat-tax.
7 - Improved Trip: The cornerstone of my tripping offensive capabilities. Not entirely necessary for the throwing maneuvers, but it helps immensely. The added option of an attack after tripping is always nice.
9 - Knockdown: Deal 10 or more damage at level 9, and you get a free tripping attempt. This applies to strike maneuvers. Whenever I'm out of throws, I can use one of my other damaging strikes to attempt a trip, at no penalty or risk to myself.
- Acrobatic Backstab Skill Trick: Handy for getting into position and landing that flatfooted attack. Works wonderfully with strikes, and I'll be using tumble quite a lot.
12 - Sun School: At this specific level, I picked Shadow Stride. So I'll be able to gain a free attack when teleporting up to someone, then strike/full attack, triggering Knockdown which trips him (if I haven't thrown him across the room yet). Or just do a standard touch and trip attack, triggering Improved Trip. Also works very well with Assassin's Stance and Cloak of Deception, and any strikes relying on flat footed attacks, such as Death in the Dark. The other two tactical abilities are very situational, but could be useful.
15 - Robilar's Gambit: AoO when I'm attacked. Lets me essentially run through a crowd of enemies and trip every single one of them. Works wonderfully with my high movement speed and Child of Shadows for that concealment miss chance.
18 - Unsure. I still don't know what to take for this feat. Level 18 is a very long way away. Any suggestions?

Maneuvers and Stances Walkthrough:

1) Child of Shadows Stance enhances my defense while mobile, which I will be almost all of the time. Mighty Throw as the baseline throwing ability. Sudden Leap for improved action economy. Wolf Fang Strike as a prereq for Sudden Leap, as well as being a mobile full attack at early levels. Sapphire Nightmare Blade as a good source of damage, as well as triggering Assassin's Stance later on, due to the flat footed status infliction. Shadow Blade Technique for extra damage, or just a chance to roll twice on a crucial melee attack. Doubling the odds never hurts. Charging Minotaur as a temporary battlefield manipulator, until I get higher level throws.
2) Assassin's Stance as an added source of damage. Goes well with my role as scout. Cloak of Deception to help trigger Assassin's Stance, as well as a useful utility maneuver. 100 feet of stealthy invisibility in a round has many potential uses.
3) Mind Over Body to cover my weakest save of the three. Fortitude happens to be one save that often involves immediate life-threatening effects.
4) Comet Throw to add a fair bit of damage to displacing enemies. Mountain Hammer as a great tool for overcoming DR, both in and out of combat.
SSN 1) Obscuring Shadow Veil as an added WIS based fortitude save to debuff an enemy. 50% miss chance can be a powerful thing on strong melee characters. The extra damage doesn't hurt either.
5) Shifting Defense allows me to dodge and weave through enemies like they're nothing, allowing me to pick and choose which AoOs I should avoid or utilize. Shadow Stride to trigger Sun School next level. Also, 50ft move action teleportation has countless uses.
6) Soaring Throw to further add to my repertoire of displacement strikes. Disrupting Blow to prevent any actions on an opponent. Can be incredibly useful on bosses.
7) Ballista Throw, see Soaring Throw above.
8) Mirrored Pursuit to help with ranged opponents trying to escape and cast spells. Crushing Vise as a no-save, hit or miss immobilize.
9) Hearing the Air Stance as an aid to scouting, and to find invisible enemies. Shadow Blink to aid in action economy and to trigger Sun School. Also handy for utility purposes
10) Colossus Strike as another option for displacing an enemy, while doing a fair bit of bonus damage. Unfortunately has a save. Death In the Dark as a first strike option. Combined with Sun School, Shadow Blink/Stride and Assassin's Stance, the damage can rack up significantly. As an added bonus, it's guaranteed to trigger Knockdown.
11) Diamond Defense as my second defensive counter, this time covering all my saves. Doubles protection on fortitude when Mind Over Body is also readied.
12) Diamond Nightmare Blade for greatly enhanced damage. Ancient Mountain Hammer as an upgrade to Mountain Hammer. Same utility applies, but with a lot more damage.
13) Tornado Throw. This maneuver...it's glorious. Just the imagery of it is enough. Too bad it's at level 20.

Now, some questions.

First off, is the build any good? Is taking monk to 6 for the tripping feats and movement speed worth it, or a bad idea?

Did it succeed in its intentions as a mobile battlefield controller?

Specific question about Shifting Defense. Would that same opportunity to take a 5ft step after being attacked also enable you to use Robilar's? So, you get attacked, you take a 5ft step while counter attacking at the same time. Would this be possible? Would it require 1 AoO or 2?

Is the small focus on Stone Dragon maneuvers worth it? Or would I be better off with more Shadow Hand or Tiger Claw strikes?

Are you allowed to refrain from choosing a stance until another level? I ask because, at Swordsage 5, I get a new stance, and I'm one level off of accessing the 5th level stances (Shifting Defense). Instead of having to choose between three not-as-appealing options, would I be able to reserve my stance choice for a later initiator level? Or is it set in stone?

Also, the same question applies to feats. Am I able to hold a feat choice until say, level 4 instead of level 3, in order to meet BAB or skillpoint requirements?

Any comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for reading this far!
Cheers.

[Komatik]

I'm not an expert on Swordsages so I won't comment on the build.

The houserules are another matter. All those nerfs are unnecessary. Swordsage is one of those classes that reads strong, but it's far from broken. It's main features (with Adaptive Style included) are being able to contribute meaningfully to most encounters, inability to break the game, and having a low optimization floor.

What the last statement means is that it's very, very hard to screw up a Swordsage - you'll end up with a pretty strong character no matter what. But unless you go for the Arcane Swordsage Adaptation (which you shouldn't, because it's broken to hell and back about three times over), you can't really make it that much stronger either. Cleric and Sorcerer are both much stronger classes as far as raw power goes, and Cleric is far more versatile to boot.

Basically, it looks something like this:

Power Levels
10+: A Cleric who knows what he's doing
9.5: A Sorcerer who knows what he's doing
09:
08: A Swordsage who knows what he's doing
07:
06: A Swordsage built by a clueless newbie, stuck in his choices
05:
04:
03:
02:
1.5 A Sorcerer with badly chosen spells, poor sod is stuck with his choices
01: A Cleric with a bad spell loadout for the day (can be fixed by picking a new spell loadout which can instantly take him to 9+ if the player uses the spells properly)


I may be rating competent Swordsages too high, *shrug*. But that's the general idea. Swordsages just have a high power floor, but them breaking the game isn't really a real risk that can't be fixed by better spell choice and usage on the casters' part. If they do their job properly, your campaign should either be left in shambles with the poor DM crying himself to sleep, or the challenges should be so insane your Swordsage probably just twiddles his thumbs and tries to not die.


If you don't trust me, trust Tippy whose hobby is breaking the game so bad Chuck Norris cries and Urpriest who is basically always right.

[Adverb]

I'd change the order you take Insightful Strike (TC/DM) in. The bonus is per-damage roll, not per-maneuver, so you'll get it twice on Wolf Fang Strike, more than twice on Pouncing Charge, etc. (Note: Not on Dancing Mongoose.) Under your maneuvers-per-day house rule (which seems like a reasonable first crack at such), you could conceivably spam Insightful Strike all the time, but IS makes less sense when you've got the one weapon whose damage scales up with your level.

I probably wouldn't take Bloodletting Strike, but it's not bad. The level 5 maneuvers have a lot of really compelling options, especially for movement: Leaping Flame is great. Mirrored Pursuit has uses for "I walk up next to the caster and ready an action to Elder Mountain Hammer him when he casts a spell", because the immediate action to follow along is one of the few things you can do that doesn't break your ready. Shadow Stride has the unique property of being the only move-action maneuver, so in some ways it's better than the swift-action version, because no Swordsage lacks for things to do with their swift slot.

Uncanny dodge auto-upgrades to improved uncanny dodge, but the same is not true for evasion. Your DM may house rule it, though.

There are a handful of magic items which stand out, but I'd call special attention to the following, in about this order:
Heartseeker Amulet, Fanged Ring, Monk's Belt, Vampire Torc, Bracers of the Hunter, Mantle of the Predator

[Alagos]

I've been very split on which to take first for Insightful Strike, so thank you for clarifying that.

As for the house rules, I suppose it won't be entirely necessary. I've read pretty much the same things about Sorcerer and Cleric ever since I started browsing forums. So I guess we'll just play it by ear. I've yet to play a session as a Swordsage, so we'll see how it goes. My DM's main concern is just being able to have fun without crushing every challenge we come across into oblivion. Always need that element of danger to it, or you lose the excitement. But I do agree with your points.

I didn't really consider that particular issue with Insightful Strike until now. I guess if I'm taking Imp Natural Weapons, the two concepts are a bit at odds with each other. Would Ruby/Diamond Nightmare Blade be a better alternative, seeing as they straight up multiply your base damage?

The Leaping Flame maneuver looks very tempting. I haven't given much thought to DW maneuvers. Trying to keep a more strictly martial feel to the character, and leave the fiery magical damage to the sorcerer. Kinda his niche, from what I've seen of his plans. Would this maneuver work against spells like Burning Hands or enchantments? It specifically says attacks, but doesn't mention spells.

I also didn't even think about the Shadow Stride thing, so thank you for that. I guess with a build as boost/counter intensive as mine, using the move action would come in handy. Only issue is, my DM has hinted that teleporting 50ft as a melee combatant with no specific training in spellcasting seems a bit...odd. So he's probably going to lower the range to 30ft or even half movement speed. Hence my hesitance to take it as a move action, instead of a swift one. But that's weeks down the road. Plenty of time for discussion.

I'll keep a look out for those items. My character has been the sort to shun personal wealth and materialism up to this point, but I'm sure I could convince my companions to lend me some for the more vital items.

I'm considering taking Shifting Defense instead of Leaping Dragon Stance at lvl 11. By that level, I'm guessing my jump check should be sufficient to get me through most TC maneuvers without a problem. And the ability to escape full attacks at higher levels seems very attractive.

I also did some more research on potential feats, and came across Scorpion's Grasp. http://dndtools.eu/feats/sandstorm--85/scorpions-grasp--2524/
Initiates a grapple check as a free action whenever I do any damage with my unarmed strike, including being able to immediately attack without any added roll after the grapple check. This includes maneuvers as well, and would up my damage significantly at the lower levels (I don't expect to come across anything immensely hard to grapple until later on).
My idea was to use a maneuver/full attack, hit, and grapple either during the attacks or on the last one, do additional damage, and then release my opponent as a free action. Whether the guy lets me go or not is up to him, but in most cases people don't want to stay grappled, unless they're built for it.
It would replace Shadow Blade at lvl 3. This also means I would probably ignore Gloom Razor and take either Extra Readied Maneuver or Steady Concentration at lvl 12, for added options or an automatic ~27 on my saves when using Diamond Defense/Mind Over Body. Any thoughts?

[Adverb]

So, if I'm playing in a game where the goal is "survive this adventure and kill these opponents", I love Scorpion's Grasp. In a game that involves any roleplaying, or where the DM wants to maintain a consistent level of challenge, or anything like that, I hate Scorpion's Grasp, because it just makes your unarmed character do more damage all the time, which means the DM just has to throw more HP at you. I'd rather spend that feat on something that gives me a new option that makes the game more interesting. It sounds like your DM is the type where I'd rather take Unnerving Calm than Scorpion's Grasp.

If you want strictly martial, and your DM kinda does too (what with the reasoning for the teleport nerf), uh... maybe you should go Warblade instead of Swordsage? Actually, better than that, maybe see if your DM can house rule that you lose Desert Wind but gain Iron Heart. That seems like it would be right up your alley. Regardless, it seems like Mirrored Pursuit is a winning plan for you, but it's a level 5 maneuver and your build takes it at Swordsage 13, when you could be loading up on Ancient Mountain Hammer. (Though, I dunno, AMH is cool and all, but it feels like it's just slightly less cool than Swooping Dragon Strike, and so under your house rule I'd probably take something else?)

Stuff to take instead of IS/GIS... uh... well, if you have the ability to take Iron Heart Surge without blowing two feats on it, you should do that and ignore other options that aren't, I dunno, getting a free character level or something. Shadow Garrote is basically the Darth Vader force choke, which may be too woojy for this concept. Death Mark is balls-out amazing when you first get access to it, but it doesn't scale, so it gets old fast. Before it gets old, you get through a level's worth of encounters by fireball-punching the crap out of everything. Zephyr Dance is less game-breaking and less genre breaking, and the ability to get +4 AC for one hit when "You can choose to use this maneuver after an opponent resolves his attack but before he determines damage" basically means having +4 AC whenever it really matters. For level 6 stuff, Moment of Alacrity is super good. It combines well with Adaptive Style, possibly so well that your DM will disallow it.

Should have mentioned this before: I recommend skipping Emerald Razor and wearing a Heartseeking Amulet. It gives you the "this melee attack becomes melee touch" 3/day as a swift action, which means you can seek someone's heart with your Ancient Mountain Hammer, a technique guaranteed to damage even the most hardened of arteries.

Having thought about your Sorcerer-like progression some more, given the ability to use X maneuvers of each level per day, I would definitely take all three DM save counters and never ever swap them out ever, because I'd rather burn low-level "spell slots" on dealing with saves than have to use Diamond Defense all the time. Also, Moment of Perfect mind means never having to say to your party "I'm sorry my melee monster got Dominated into killing your PC."

BTW, if you do end up tinkering with Unnerving Calm, I highly recommend this unofficial set of ToB errata. They cleaned up a lot of stuff really well: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=13292.0

[Alagos]

Completely Updated Build

[Komatik]

As for the house rules, I suppose it won't be entirely necessary. I've read pretty much the same things about Sorcerer and Cleric ever since I started browsing forums. So I guess we'll just play it by ear. I've yet to play a session as a Swordsage, so we'll see how it goes. My DM's main concern is just being able to have fun without crushing every challenge we come across into oblivion. Always need that element of danger to it, or you lose the excitement. But I do agree with your points.

Only issue is, my DM has hinted that teleporting 50ft as a melee combatant with no specific training in spellcasting seems a bit...odd. So he's probably going to lower the range to 30ft or even half movement speed. Hence my hesitance to take it as a move action, instead of a swift one. But that's weeks down the road. Plenty of time for discussion.

You've read them all over the place because they're true. Spellcasters, when played smart, are way more powerful than anything else in the game and have the potential to break campaigns every which way. It's just easy to overrate the usefulness of being able to do things at will, and some of the more broken spells don't scream "this is actually absurdly strong" the way some martial maneuvers can appear to people.

The key thing, here, is that the principal resource of D&D are actions. Not ability use slots or anything of the sort. The higher impact your actions are, the better. In this area, spellcasters are kings and won't run out of spells at somewhat higher levels, really. 1 or 2 spells are often enough to trivialize an encounter.

Swordsages are nowhere near that, though they're far more consistently strong than a random Fighter or something and thus seem overpowered in comparison (and really, they are. But the problem is Fighter is distilled suck and charge+full attack monotony, so obsoleting it with something versatile and able to do move action + interesting attack action like spellcasters can is just fine and good for gameplay). And even then, your party doesn't include a single dedicated Fighter type. All are casters to some extent or another, and making the Clerics useful is a matter of choosing the correct spells. If the sorcerer screws up his spell selection, one reselection of his spells and he's good to go.

As far as the flavour goes, swordsages are mystics in the vein of wizards and psions. They're explicitly supernatural by flavour, so I don't see what the issue with them having magical abilities is. (please relay this to the DM)

[Alagos]

I've asked around and mentioned these house rules in numerous places, and everyone agrees that it's completely unnecessary. Based on this overwhelming evidence, I'm probably going to be able to convince the DM to simply play things out, and if things seem a bit unbalanced, then tweak it. From this point on, ignore any of the house rules that I've mentioned above.

That point aside, how is the actual build? Would it even work? Could it be tweaked in any way? Maneuver choices, feat choices, etc.?

[Adverb]

My main thought is that if I were in your shoes, I would find playing four levels of Monk to be super boring and I wouldn't do it. If you're coming in at a high level, it's not the worst idea, but I wouldn't if I were you.

I think your higher-end maneuver choices aren't what I'd make, but they're not bad, and since you'll be playing through, you have plenty of time to see what works for you and what doesn't and choose accordingly. Sun School is a fun trick.

There is no rule that lets you delay stance choice, or feats, or anything like that. But your DM sounds willing to house rule stuff, so it could happen? Make sure your DM is okay with Knockdown, it's a questionable 3.0 import. It's OP compared to what melee is "supposed" to do, but pretty reasonable compared to what a full caster can do, so opinions vary. If you haven't looked up the magic items I mentioned earlier, do that - they're worth building a Swordsage around. :)