Alagos
2014-03-20, 07:01 PM
Hello all,
I've completely changed angles on how I want my build to go, so I decided to just edit the post with all the changes.
Playing in Forgotten Realms.
Restricted to 3.0/3.5 material, any WotC official resources.
Alagos is a DEX based monk/swordsage focused primarily on battlefield control and manipulation. His favored schools are Shadow Hand, Setting Sun, Stone Dragon and Diamond Mind. Each maneuver picked from these disciplines is working towards complete mastery over positioning and action economy. His main role will be to divert the offensive of his enemies away from the more vulnerable members of his party, and throw them towards his fellow warriors. Tripping plays a key role in this tactic, as do all the Setting Sun throws and other myriad maneuvers from the other disciplines. Shadow Hand plays a key role in reconnaissance and stealth. His goal will be to either neutralize the threat immediately, or call for aid while throwing them into vulnerable positions. Diamond Mind allows for greater defensive capabilities, as well as a highly damaging attack and neutralizing strike. Attacks of opportunity will also be a focus. So without further ado, the build!
Monk 2 / Swordsage 1 / Monk 6 / Swordsage 4 / Shadow Sun Ninja 1 / Swordsage 13
Notes:
-Levels 1 and 2 are set in stone, as the campaign has already begun. Everything else beyond that point is fair game.
-Using the unarmed swordsage variant
-Party members include a cleric, sorcerer, and fighter/cleric.
Feats and Class Abilities:
Monk 1) Feat: Improved Grapple, Flurry of Blows, Stunning Blow, WIS to AC,
Monk 2) Bonus Feat: Combat Reflexes, Evasion
SS 1) Feat: Shadow Blade, Quick to Act +1 initiative, Discipline Focus: Shadow Hand
Monk 3) Skill Trick: Twisted Charge, Still Mind, Fast Movement 40ft
Monk 4) Slow Fall 20ft, Ki Strike
Monk 5) Feat: Adaptive Style, Purity of Body, Improved Flurry of Blows, +1 AC Bonus
Monk 6) Bonus Feat: Improved Tripping, Fast Movement 50ft, Slow Fall 30ft
SS 3) Feat: Knockdown, Skill Trick: Acrobatic Backstab
SS 4) Insightful Strike: Setting Sun
Shadow Sun Ninja 1) Monk Abilities +1, Touch of the Shadow Sun
SS 5) Feat: Sun School, Quick to Act +2 initiative
SS 7) Sense Magic
SS 8) Feat: Robilar's Gambit, Defensive Stance: Shadow Hand
SS 9) Evasion (improved? debatable)
SS 10) Quick to Act +3 initiative
SS 11) Feat: Unsure
SS 12) Insightful Strike: Diamond Mind
Maneuvers and Stances, based on Swordsage/SSNinja Levels
1) Stance: Child of Shadows, Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Wolf Fang Strike, Sudden Leap, Mighty Throw, Charging Minotaur, Shadow Blade Technique
2) Stance: Assassin's Stance, Cloak of Deception
3) Mind Over Body
4) Comet Throw, Mountain Hammer (swap with Wolf Fang Strike)
SS Ninja 1) Obscuring Shadow Veil
5) Stance: Shifting Defense, Shadow Stride
6) Disrupting Blow, Soaring Throw (swap with Charging Minotaur)
7) Ballista Throw
8) Crushing Vise, Mirrored Pursuit (swap with Shadow Blade Technique)
9) Stance: Hearing the Air, Shadow Blink
10) Colossus Strike, Death in the Dark (swap with Sapphire Nightmare Blade)
11) Diamond Defense
12) Diamond Nightmare Blade, Ancient Mountain Hammer (swap with Mountain Hammer)
13) Tornado Throw
Why I picked Monk to 6, and Shadow Sun Ninja:
While I was hesitant to consider this option before, it feels like it works out in the end. I get Improved Trip, which is a feat I've been wanting in my build since I started. I can therefore pick Knockback at level 9, which can work on any attack I do over 10 damage on. Pretty much any strike will trigger it, and I plan on gaining AoO's quite often later on. I get a minimum 50ft movement speed, which combined with strikes and throws will work incredibly well. I get improved flurry at level 5, which can help somewhat. Slow Fall, Purity of Body, and Still Mind are not so great, but it can't hurt to have them. Ki Strike could be handy..somehow. Also, high saves. Shadow Sun Ninja grants me the very useful Touch of The Shadow Sun. It's essentially a lifedrain, that I can use for either myself or my allies as a swift action. I get one less maneuver to choose from, but I feel it's worth it just for the benefits in survivability.
I arranged the levels so that my initiator levels would coincide well with stance and maneuver selection early on. Though I'd be sticking with monk until level 7, I would still have 6 maneuvers and a very nice defensive stance to work with until that time, as well as Shadow Blade and Adaptive Style. It should sustain me until I pick up full initiator levels again later on.
Feat Walkthrough: Based on Character Level (CL)
1) Improved Grapple: I picked this at the beginning not realizing just how limiting a grappling build could become later on in the game. This choice is permanent, but at least it gives me another option of offense. If I really need to shut an enemy down, I can pin them. Though I don't expect it to be useful later on.
2) Combat Reflexes: AoOs. Robilar's. Tripping attempts with said AoO's. Works beautifully with the Shifting Defense stance, allowing me to step out of the way of full attacks with ease. Gives me many options to choose from.
3 - Shadow Blade: This focuses my stats primarily on DEX for doing damage. All the Setting Sun throws can be executed with your DEX modifier instead of STR. My STR will still be high enough to hit and succeed on normal trip attempts, but it won't be excessive. And I will remain within a Shadow Hand stance for most of my career, either for mobile defense, burst damage or recon.
5 - Twisted Charge Skill Trick: Handy to have if I want to make a short range charge that involves some turning. Gets me that +2 to attack.
6 - Adaptive Style: Pretty much a must-have for swordsages, as their recovery mechanic is terrible. A necessary feat-tax.
7 - Improved Trip: The cornerstone of my tripping offensive capabilities. Not entirely necessary for the throwing maneuvers, but it helps immensely. The added option of an attack after tripping is always nice.
9 - Knockdown: Deal 10 or more damage at level 9, and you get a free tripping attempt. This applies to strike maneuvers. Whenever I'm out of throws, I can use one of my other damaging strikes to attempt a trip, at no penalty or risk to myself.
- Acrobatic Backstab Skill Trick: Handy for getting into position and landing that flatfooted attack. Works wonderfully with strikes, and I'll be using tumble quite a lot.
12 - Sun School: At this specific level, I picked Shadow Stride. So I'll be able to gain a free attack when teleporting up to someone, then strike/full attack, triggering Knockdown which trips him (if I haven't thrown him across the room yet). Or just do a standard touch and trip attack, triggering Improved Trip. Also works very well with Assassin's Stance and Cloak of Deception, and any strikes relying on flat footed attacks, such as Death in the Dark. The other two tactical abilities are very situational, but could be useful.
15 - Robilar's Gambit: AoO when I'm attacked. Lets me essentially run through a crowd of enemies and trip every single one of them. Works wonderfully with my high movement speed and Child of Shadows for that concealment miss chance.
18 - Unsure. I still don't know what to take for this feat. Level 18 is a very long way away. Any suggestions?
Maneuvers and Stances Walkthrough:
1) Child of Shadows Stance enhances my defense while mobile, which I will be almost all of the time. Mighty Throw as the baseline throwing ability. Sudden Leap for improved action economy. Wolf Fang Strike as a prereq for Sudden Leap, as well as being a mobile full attack at early levels. Sapphire Nightmare Blade as a good source of damage, as well as triggering Assassin's Stance later on, due to the flat footed status infliction. Shadow Blade Technique for extra damage, or just a chance to roll twice on a crucial melee attack. Doubling the odds never hurts. Charging Minotaur as a temporary battlefield manipulator, until I get higher level throws.
2) Assassin's Stance as an added source of damage. Goes well with my role as scout. Cloak of Deception to help trigger Assassin's Stance, as well as a useful utility maneuver. 100 feet of stealthy invisibility in a round has many potential uses.
3) Mind Over Body to cover my weakest save of the three. Fortitude happens to be one save that often involves immediate life-threatening effects.
4) Comet Throw to add a fair bit of damage to displacing enemies. Mountain Hammer as a great tool for overcoming DR, both in and out of combat.
SSN 1) Obscuring Shadow Veil as an added WIS based fortitude save to debuff an enemy. 50% miss chance can be a powerful thing on strong melee characters. The extra damage doesn't hurt either.
5) Shifting Defense allows me to dodge and weave through enemies like they're nothing, allowing me to pick and choose which AoOs I should avoid or utilize. Shadow Stride to trigger Sun School next level. Also, 50ft move action teleportation has countless uses.
6) Soaring Throw to further add to my repertoire of displacement strikes. Disrupting Blow to prevent any actions on an opponent. Can be incredibly useful on bosses.
7) Ballista Throw, see Soaring Throw above.
8) Mirrored Pursuit to help with ranged opponents trying to escape and cast spells. Crushing Vise as a no-save, hit or miss immobilize.
9) Hearing the Air Stance as an aid to scouting, and to find invisible enemies. Shadow Blink to aid in action economy and to trigger Sun School. Also handy for utility purposes
10) Colossus Strike as another option for displacing an enemy, while doing a fair bit of bonus damage. Unfortunately has a save. Death In the Dark as a first strike option. Combined with Sun School, Shadow Blink/Stride and Assassin's Stance, the damage can rack up significantly. As an added bonus, it's guaranteed to trigger Knockdown.
11) Diamond Defense as my second defensive counter, this time covering all my saves. Doubles protection on fortitude when Mind Over Body is also readied.
12) Diamond Nightmare Blade for greatly enhanced damage. Ancient Mountain Hammer as an upgrade to Mountain Hammer. Same utility applies, but with a lot more damage.
13) Tornado Throw. This maneuver...it's glorious. Just the imagery of it is enough. Too bad it's at level 20.
Now, some questions.
First off, is the build any good? Is taking monk to 6 for the tripping feats and movement speed worth it, or a bad idea?
Did it succeed in its intentions as a mobile battlefield controller?
Specific question about Shifting Defense. Would that same opportunity to take a 5ft step after being attacked also enable you to use Robilar's? So, you get attacked, you take a 5ft step while counter attacking at the same time. Would this be possible? Would it require 1 AoO or 2?
Is the small focus on Stone Dragon maneuvers worth it? Or would I be better off with more Shadow Hand or Tiger Claw strikes?
Are you allowed to refrain from choosing a stance until another level? I ask because, at Swordsage 5, I get a new stance, and I'm one level off of accessing the 5th level stances (Shifting Defense). Instead of having to choose between three not-as-appealing options, would I be able to reserve my stance choice for a later initiator level? Or is it set in stone?
Also, the same question applies to feats. Am I able to hold a feat choice until say, level 4 instead of level 3, in order to meet BAB or skillpoint requirements?
Any comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for reading this far!
Cheers.
I've completely changed angles on how I want my build to go, so I decided to just edit the post with all the changes.
Playing in Forgotten Realms.
Restricted to 3.0/3.5 material, any WotC official resources.
Alagos is a DEX based monk/swordsage focused primarily on battlefield control and manipulation. His favored schools are Shadow Hand, Setting Sun, Stone Dragon and Diamond Mind. Each maneuver picked from these disciplines is working towards complete mastery over positioning and action economy. His main role will be to divert the offensive of his enemies away from the more vulnerable members of his party, and throw them towards his fellow warriors. Tripping plays a key role in this tactic, as do all the Setting Sun throws and other myriad maneuvers from the other disciplines. Shadow Hand plays a key role in reconnaissance and stealth. His goal will be to either neutralize the threat immediately, or call for aid while throwing them into vulnerable positions. Diamond Mind allows for greater defensive capabilities, as well as a highly damaging attack and neutralizing strike. Attacks of opportunity will also be a focus. So without further ado, the build!
Monk 2 / Swordsage 1 / Monk 6 / Swordsage 4 / Shadow Sun Ninja 1 / Swordsage 13
Notes:
-Levels 1 and 2 are set in stone, as the campaign has already begun. Everything else beyond that point is fair game.
-Using the unarmed swordsage variant
-Party members include a cleric, sorcerer, and fighter/cleric.
Feats and Class Abilities:
Monk 1) Feat: Improved Grapple, Flurry of Blows, Stunning Blow, WIS to AC,
Monk 2) Bonus Feat: Combat Reflexes, Evasion
SS 1) Feat: Shadow Blade, Quick to Act +1 initiative, Discipline Focus: Shadow Hand
Monk 3) Skill Trick: Twisted Charge, Still Mind, Fast Movement 40ft
Monk 4) Slow Fall 20ft, Ki Strike
Monk 5) Feat: Adaptive Style, Purity of Body, Improved Flurry of Blows, +1 AC Bonus
Monk 6) Bonus Feat: Improved Tripping, Fast Movement 50ft, Slow Fall 30ft
SS 3) Feat: Knockdown, Skill Trick: Acrobatic Backstab
SS 4) Insightful Strike: Setting Sun
Shadow Sun Ninja 1) Monk Abilities +1, Touch of the Shadow Sun
SS 5) Feat: Sun School, Quick to Act +2 initiative
SS 7) Sense Magic
SS 8) Feat: Robilar's Gambit, Defensive Stance: Shadow Hand
SS 9) Evasion (improved? debatable)
SS 10) Quick to Act +3 initiative
SS 11) Feat: Unsure
SS 12) Insightful Strike: Diamond Mind
Maneuvers and Stances, based on Swordsage/SSNinja Levels
1) Stance: Child of Shadows, Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Wolf Fang Strike, Sudden Leap, Mighty Throw, Charging Minotaur, Shadow Blade Technique
2) Stance: Assassin's Stance, Cloak of Deception
3) Mind Over Body
4) Comet Throw, Mountain Hammer (swap with Wolf Fang Strike)
SS Ninja 1) Obscuring Shadow Veil
5) Stance: Shifting Defense, Shadow Stride
6) Disrupting Blow, Soaring Throw (swap with Charging Minotaur)
7) Ballista Throw
8) Crushing Vise, Mirrored Pursuit (swap with Shadow Blade Technique)
9) Stance: Hearing the Air, Shadow Blink
10) Colossus Strike, Death in the Dark (swap with Sapphire Nightmare Blade)
11) Diamond Defense
12) Diamond Nightmare Blade, Ancient Mountain Hammer (swap with Mountain Hammer)
13) Tornado Throw
Why I picked Monk to 6, and Shadow Sun Ninja:
While I was hesitant to consider this option before, it feels like it works out in the end. I get Improved Trip, which is a feat I've been wanting in my build since I started. I can therefore pick Knockback at level 9, which can work on any attack I do over 10 damage on. Pretty much any strike will trigger it, and I plan on gaining AoO's quite often later on. I get a minimum 50ft movement speed, which combined with strikes and throws will work incredibly well. I get improved flurry at level 5, which can help somewhat. Slow Fall, Purity of Body, and Still Mind are not so great, but it can't hurt to have them. Ki Strike could be handy..somehow. Also, high saves. Shadow Sun Ninja grants me the very useful Touch of The Shadow Sun. It's essentially a lifedrain, that I can use for either myself or my allies as a swift action. I get one less maneuver to choose from, but I feel it's worth it just for the benefits in survivability.
I arranged the levels so that my initiator levels would coincide well with stance and maneuver selection early on. Though I'd be sticking with monk until level 7, I would still have 6 maneuvers and a very nice defensive stance to work with until that time, as well as Shadow Blade and Adaptive Style. It should sustain me until I pick up full initiator levels again later on.
Feat Walkthrough: Based on Character Level (CL)
1) Improved Grapple: I picked this at the beginning not realizing just how limiting a grappling build could become later on in the game. This choice is permanent, but at least it gives me another option of offense. If I really need to shut an enemy down, I can pin them. Though I don't expect it to be useful later on.
2) Combat Reflexes: AoOs. Robilar's. Tripping attempts with said AoO's. Works beautifully with the Shifting Defense stance, allowing me to step out of the way of full attacks with ease. Gives me many options to choose from.
3 - Shadow Blade: This focuses my stats primarily on DEX for doing damage. All the Setting Sun throws can be executed with your DEX modifier instead of STR. My STR will still be high enough to hit and succeed on normal trip attempts, but it won't be excessive. And I will remain within a Shadow Hand stance for most of my career, either for mobile defense, burst damage or recon.
5 - Twisted Charge Skill Trick: Handy to have if I want to make a short range charge that involves some turning. Gets me that +2 to attack.
6 - Adaptive Style: Pretty much a must-have for swordsages, as their recovery mechanic is terrible. A necessary feat-tax.
7 - Improved Trip: The cornerstone of my tripping offensive capabilities. Not entirely necessary for the throwing maneuvers, but it helps immensely. The added option of an attack after tripping is always nice.
9 - Knockdown: Deal 10 or more damage at level 9, and you get a free tripping attempt. This applies to strike maneuvers. Whenever I'm out of throws, I can use one of my other damaging strikes to attempt a trip, at no penalty or risk to myself.
- Acrobatic Backstab Skill Trick: Handy for getting into position and landing that flatfooted attack. Works wonderfully with strikes, and I'll be using tumble quite a lot.
12 - Sun School: At this specific level, I picked Shadow Stride. So I'll be able to gain a free attack when teleporting up to someone, then strike/full attack, triggering Knockdown which trips him (if I haven't thrown him across the room yet). Or just do a standard touch and trip attack, triggering Improved Trip. Also works very well with Assassin's Stance and Cloak of Deception, and any strikes relying on flat footed attacks, such as Death in the Dark. The other two tactical abilities are very situational, but could be useful.
15 - Robilar's Gambit: AoO when I'm attacked. Lets me essentially run through a crowd of enemies and trip every single one of them. Works wonderfully with my high movement speed and Child of Shadows for that concealment miss chance.
18 - Unsure. I still don't know what to take for this feat. Level 18 is a very long way away. Any suggestions?
Maneuvers and Stances Walkthrough:
1) Child of Shadows Stance enhances my defense while mobile, which I will be almost all of the time. Mighty Throw as the baseline throwing ability. Sudden Leap for improved action economy. Wolf Fang Strike as a prereq for Sudden Leap, as well as being a mobile full attack at early levels. Sapphire Nightmare Blade as a good source of damage, as well as triggering Assassin's Stance later on, due to the flat footed status infliction. Shadow Blade Technique for extra damage, or just a chance to roll twice on a crucial melee attack. Doubling the odds never hurts. Charging Minotaur as a temporary battlefield manipulator, until I get higher level throws.
2) Assassin's Stance as an added source of damage. Goes well with my role as scout. Cloak of Deception to help trigger Assassin's Stance, as well as a useful utility maneuver. 100 feet of stealthy invisibility in a round has many potential uses.
3) Mind Over Body to cover my weakest save of the three. Fortitude happens to be one save that often involves immediate life-threatening effects.
4) Comet Throw to add a fair bit of damage to displacing enemies. Mountain Hammer as a great tool for overcoming DR, both in and out of combat.
SSN 1) Obscuring Shadow Veil as an added WIS based fortitude save to debuff an enemy. 50% miss chance can be a powerful thing on strong melee characters. The extra damage doesn't hurt either.
5) Shifting Defense allows me to dodge and weave through enemies like they're nothing, allowing me to pick and choose which AoOs I should avoid or utilize. Shadow Stride to trigger Sun School next level. Also, 50ft move action teleportation has countless uses.
6) Soaring Throw to further add to my repertoire of displacement strikes. Disrupting Blow to prevent any actions on an opponent. Can be incredibly useful on bosses.
7) Ballista Throw, see Soaring Throw above.
8) Mirrored Pursuit to help with ranged opponents trying to escape and cast spells. Crushing Vise as a no-save, hit or miss immobilize.
9) Hearing the Air Stance as an aid to scouting, and to find invisible enemies. Shadow Blink to aid in action economy and to trigger Sun School. Also handy for utility purposes
10) Colossus Strike as another option for displacing an enemy, while doing a fair bit of bonus damage. Unfortunately has a save. Death In the Dark as a first strike option. Combined with Sun School, Shadow Blink/Stride and Assassin's Stance, the damage can rack up significantly. As an added bonus, it's guaranteed to trigger Knockdown.
11) Diamond Defense as my second defensive counter, this time covering all my saves. Doubles protection on fortitude when Mind Over Body is also readied.
12) Diamond Nightmare Blade for greatly enhanced damage. Ancient Mountain Hammer as an upgrade to Mountain Hammer. Same utility applies, but with a lot more damage.
13) Tornado Throw. This maneuver...it's glorious. Just the imagery of it is enough. Too bad it's at level 20.
Now, some questions.
First off, is the build any good? Is taking monk to 6 for the tripping feats and movement speed worth it, or a bad idea?
Did it succeed in its intentions as a mobile battlefield controller?
Specific question about Shifting Defense. Would that same opportunity to take a 5ft step after being attacked also enable you to use Robilar's? So, you get attacked, you take a 5ft step while counter attacking at the same time. Would this be possible? Would it require 1 AoO or 2?
Is the small focus on Stone Dragon maneuvers worth it? Or would I be better off with more Shadow Hand or Tiger Claw strikes?
Are you allowed to refrain from choosing a stance until another level? I ask because, at Swordsage 5, I get a new stance, and I'm one level off of accessing the 5th level stances (Shifting Defense). Instead of having to choose between three not-as-appealing options, would I be able to reserve my stance choice for a later initiator level? Or is it set in stone?
Also, the same question applies to feats. Am I able to hold a feat choice until say, level 4 instead of level 3, in order to meet BAB or skillpoint requirements?
Any comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for reading this far!
Cheers.