Gestalt Question (PF)

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

Ok so if the classes are subpar in and of themselves. If you merge the two classes together, ignoring handful of the classes quirks would it be a decent class in and of itself?

Yes I know throw anything positive on a monk makes it better and so forth. But d10, full bab, Challenge as a perk, Iaijutsu Strike if you take the Sword Saint archetype, Qinggong Archetype, etc.

[claypigeons]

Ok so if the classes are subpar in and of themselves. If you merge the two classes together, ignoring handful of the classes quirks would it be a decent class in and of itself?

Yes I know throw anything positive on a monk makes it better and so forth. But d10, full bab, Challenge as a perk, Iaijutsu Strike if you take the Sword Saint archetype, Qinggong Archetype, etc.

Bad + Bad = Still bad.

If you are tossing classes together to improve compared to a non-gestalt, it might increase power slightly. Gestalt can't make a Tier 1 out of a couple Tier 4-5 classes.

[Aergoth]

Ok so if the classes are subpar in and of themselves. If you merge the two classes together, ignoring handful of the classes quirks would it be a decent class in and of itself?

Yes I know throw anything positive on a monk makes it better and so forth. But d10, full bab, Challenge as a perk, Iaijutsu Strike if you take the Sword Saint archetype, Qinggong Archetype, etc.

There's a few problems you run into with that build, the first is class features not meshing. The Samurai's armor proficiencies don't work with monk wisdom to ac, so you're trading that off. And the samurai's prefered weapons don't work with monk flurry of blows, Iaijutsu strike doesn't let you used monk unarmed attack bonuses you see what I'm getting at?

The second is what will always be the bane of a gestalt build, which is action economy. You only have so many actions in a single turn and you can't always leverage all your options because using one prevents you from using another. You can't move for standing on your own hands basically.

Third. Qinggong Monk is basically trading monk class features for thematically appropriate SLAs powered by the ki pool. If that's the way you're going to go, why gestalt monk in the first place? Why not Samurai and Magus if you want the combat there. Or Samurai and Cleric? Samurai and Oracle of Metal?

[Ravens_cry]

Bad + Bad = Still bad.

If you are tossing classes together to improve compared to a non-gestalt, it might increase power slightly. Gestalt can't make a Tier 1 out of a couple Tier 4-5 classes.
No, but synergy is possible. Imagine gestalting rogue and monk. This helps the rogue with saves, hitting (Flurry works at full BAB), and AC while rogue helps the monk out with damage and skill points.

[claypigeons]

No, but synergy is possible. Imagine gestalting rogue and monk. This helps the rogue with saves, hitting (Flurry works at full BAB), and AC while rogue helps the monk out with damage and skill points.

Rogue//Monk wouldn't have full BAB. A monk gains skill points which are always useful. But there is no increase in AC. Wearing armor beats out the AC bonus. Monks already gain Evasion.

You could gestalt with the sneak attack fighter. You miss out on skills but get full bab and sneak attack.

[Firest Kathon]

Rogue//Monk wouldn't have full BAB.

PF monks get full BAB when using Flurry of Blows (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk#TOC-Flurry-of-Blows-Ex-), albeit at the -2 penalty for using flurry of blows.


When doing so, he may make one additional attack, taking a –2 penalty on all of his attack rolls, [...]

For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus from his monk class levels is equal to his monk level.

[grarrrg]

PF monks get full BAB when using Flurry of Blows (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk#TOC-Flurry-of-Blows-Ex-), albeit at the -2 penalty for using flurry of blows.

Considering he also mentioned "sneak attack fighter" I think it's safe to say he missed the PF tag.

As for his concern about duplicate abilities (mentioned Evasion) that is also easily fixed with the dozens of archetype available.

[Yorrin]

To answer the broader, non monk-dependent question, gestalt can improve a character, but not usually more than a tier higher than its best class involved.

[malonkey1]

Additionally, exactly what you gestalt has a big effect on how much you benefit. For example, you could get quite a bit of mileage out of a Rogue/Monk, but not much from a Fighter/Cavalier. The idea is to have two classes with abilities that differ enough to complement each other without being so radically different that there's no synergy.