What feats would let the Big T live up to its reputation?

[Harrow]

Anyone who has heard the stories of the Tarrasque, supposedly one of the most unkillable creatures in D&D, has likely then looked it up and been a bit disappointed. It's resistant against direct damage and has a few side immunities, but not nearly enough.

I personally saw that it had Toughness (6) and my jaw hit the floor. That just felt so... lazy. Here you have an Epic monster with 17 feats, 6 of which exist solely to give it +18 HP?!?.

This is unacceptable. It simply will not do.

So, I come to you, all of you of the Playground, with years of optimization experience, both theoretical and practical.

Unfortunately, the base Tarrasque is gifted with no magic items nor class levels, leaving only its feats to make up for what its racial abilities lack. What feats would you substitute on the Tarrasque to make it worthy of both its CR and its reputation?



The first thing that comes to my mind are using Shape Soulmeld, Open Chakra, Martial Study, and Martial Stance to shore up Big T's weaknesses, but I haven't actually been able to figure out how to do that.

Mobility is the first. And, honestly, I'm a bit stumped. Airstep Sandals sort of work, but even bound you arguably fall to the ground at the end of your turn. Incarnate Avatar would work, but Big T is neither Good nor Evil (the Law bind would also be awesome. Chaos is just sad). Martial Stance (Balance on the Sky) would even work, but requires 3 Shadow Hand maneuvers. Outsider Wings and Dragon Wings both have prerequisites that wouldn't be hard for a PC, but Big T just can't pull them. I have no idea what to do here, but the Tarrasque needs flight if it's going to be a threat against a 20th level party. Mobility would also include any method of moving faster and/or use to prevent restriction of mobility (e.g. Freedom of Movement)

Allips are renowned for being CR 3 and being able to take out the Tarrasque (and a disturbingly large amount of adventuring parties) due to Big T having immunity to ability damage but not drain. Shape Soulmeld (Strongheart Vest), Open Greater Chakra (Waist) and a couple Incarnum feats could get DR vs ability drain up to 5, 6 with Expanded Capacity. Standard allips are only capable of d4 Wis drain at a time, so if there isn't anything bigger or badder this category is pretty much covered by the mentioned feats.

Other than that, the Tarrasque is dangerously vulnerable to spells. Immune to fire damage, rays, cones, and death effects was badass 10 levels ago. At level 20, it just doesn't cut it. Polymorph spells notoriously remove the Tarrasque's regeneration, making it killable. It has no immunity to Mind-effecting effects, so Dominate Monster gets you one of the fanciest pets on the block (and combined with Psychic Reformation may well lead you back to this thread). Things like Imprisonment are about equally as effective as the suggested method of killing the Tarrasque of Wishing its regeneration would stop and hoping no one undoes that, all the more effective because of the Tarrasque's abysmal Will Save. I think even a lowly Flesh to Stone could potentially make Big T effectively dead.

Once Mobility, Ability Drain, and at least mitigation (extra SR?) for some of the more effective spells are in, the Tarrasque could always use more killing power. What feats could help make it actually kill things? Feel free to suggest just about anything for this category, the designers gave it friggin' Dodge of all things, you really can't do worse than they did.

[rmnimoc]

I distinctly remember there being a feat that keeps natural 1s from being an instant failure on saves, though I can't seem to find it. It needs that. If I can permanently deal with a tarrasque 5% of the time for under 5000 gp as a warlock 12 (scrolls of unmake), we've got a problem.

[bekeleven]

I distinctly remember there being a feat that keeps natural 1s from being an instant failure on saves, though I can't seem to find it. It needs that. If I can permanently deal with a tarrasque 5% of the time for under 5000 gp as a warlock 12 (scrolls of unmake), we've got a problem.

Steadfast Determination covers Fort, and there are some martial studies for maneuvers for the rest.

T's biggest weakness is range. Anyone with persistent flight and damage is trouble.

[Andion Isurand]

Gains maximum hit points per HD.
Gains a burrow speed of 10 ft.
Gains a climb and swim speed of 15 ft. It gains a +8 racial bonus on climb and swim checks, and may take a 10 on these skill checks even when attacked or threatened. It retains its dexterity bonus to AC when climbing.
Gains Blindsight, Tremorsense and Darkvision out to 300 ft.
Immune to ability drain, blindness, deafness, death effects, paralysis, petrification, polymorph, slow and sleep. (In addition to its existing immunities.)
The base damage of the tarrasque's natural weapons should be appropriate for a dragon of equal size, along with adding the crush and tail sweep attack options that dragons normally have.
Mettle (Ex): The tarrasque can resist magical and unusual attacks with great willpower or fortitude. If it makes a successful Will or Fortitude save against an attack that normally would have a lesser effect on a successful save (such as any spell with a saving throw entry of Will half or Fortitude partial), it instead completely negates the effect.
Rush (Ex): As a swift action, the tarrasque can move up to 2d6 times its speed. The tarrasque needs to wait 1d4 rounds after using its Rush ability before it can use it again.
Reaving Strikes (Ex): The tarrasque's natural weapons ignore any damage reduction that can be overcome by any metallic material, such as silver, cold iron or adamantine.
Rend (Ex): If the tarrasque hits with both claw attacks, it latches onto the opponent’s body and tears the flesh. This attack automatically deals an additional 8d6+25 points of damage.
Exchange the six toughness feats for the following feats: Endurance, Improved Multiattack, Multiattack, Run, Steadfast Determination, Track.

[rmnimoc]

Steadfast Determination covers Fort, and there are some martial studies for maneuvers for the rest.

T's biggest weakness is range. Anyone with persistent flight and damage is trouble.

I always found it hilarious when someone would try to fly less than 153 feet above the Tarrasque. Because any collossal creature has 128 feet of vertical reach and can jump half their height on DC 10. There is something hilarious about a Tarrasque spiking a flying player.


What movement-speed boosting stuff can we stack on him, cause at his speed as is anyone with a good mount can just fire away at him while running away in circles. EDIT: Rush is good. Rush is real good.

P.S. Anyone else notice that Big T can only bench 3x it's weight? Weird.

[OldTrees1]

Because any collossal creature has 128 feet of vertical reach and can jump half their height on DC 10.


Citation?
I thought vertical jump DCs were distance * 4.

[rmnimoc]

Citation?
I thought vertical jump DCs were distance * 4.

Feel free to scrap all that, it doesn't work like I thought it did.

On a side note, it should be able to. >.>


You can jump up onto an object as tall as your waist, such as a table or small boulder, with a DC 10 Jump check. Doing so counts as 10 feet of movement, so if your speed is 30 feet, you could move 20 feet, then hop up onto a counter. You do not need to get a running start to hop up, so the DC is not doubled if you do not get a running start.

If you can hop up onto an object as tall as your waist, you are jumping waist-high. That's about halfish your height since I'm not seeing "waist high" defined for quadrupeds. Do quadrupeds have waists?

You are right on the jump DC, turns out we were doing that wrong this whole time (5 years of playing and I never noticed that). The misinformation was probably a result of:
1. Seeing the vertical reach table and not seeing the part where that was max high jump reach,
2. not seeing that quadrupeds are counted as 1 size smaller for that.

All that aside, it makes the Tarrasque significantly more deadly when it can jump into the air and swat you out of it.

[HammeredWharf]

Knockback. Well, it's not that great, but it is damn cool.

[Zweisteine]

Too take a lot more than feats to make the Trrasque the machine of death it is meant to be.
You'll need more attack power, and I don't just mean more damage.

Something like this. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=218055)


Also, it needs immunity to mind control. And maybe any attempt to do so makes it attack the would-be enchanter immediately.

EDIT:
And to fight fliers, jump isn't going to cut it, but its probably the best we have.

And the Tarrasque is bipedal. It has two legs and two arms.

[Shinken]

Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike would work.
Steadfast Determination was already mentioned.
Shape Soulmeld for flight and a ranged attack.

[HighWater]

The Tarrasque is much too easy to kill!... When you have the insight into D&D mechanics that comes through lots of play and some frequenting of the message boards. Most less-DnD-savvy players will panic given the fact that straight up beating the Big T is pretty hard if you don't OP and don't know the clever tricks that negate its immunities. The Tarrasque is a Capstone "Newbie" Monster, in my opinion, "fixing it" disqualifies it as a valid 'end boss' for low-op play, while mid or high-op will probably still tear it a new one... My personal preference is leaving it in low-op territory to inspire fear, while the more DnD-savvy players know to fear other threats.


I personally saw that it had Toughness (6) and my jaw hit the floor. That just felt so... lazy. Here you have an Epic monster with 17 feats, 6 of which exist solely to give it +18 HP?!?.
You are right, Toughness on a monster that has this kind of HP is not just lazy but not really thematic anymore either. It does deserve a wider feat variation, or if the designers really wanted to up the "unkillable" factor, even Improved Toughness (MMIII, so not strange it wasn't included) would've been much nicer as a semi-significant HP boost.


Mobility is the first. And, honestly, I'm a bit stumped. Airstep...
Although I am sympathetic to wanting to make the Tarrasque less of a sitting duck, the fluff simply doesn't fit to giving it a mechanical means of directly meleeing flyers when the flyers don't stupidly get into range. If you give the Tarrasque a means of flight (or something close to it), it's not a Tarrasque anymore.
You could, however, give it the attack ability to throw heavy stuff, that seems much more appropriate fluff-wise. Little flying wizard floating the party out of arm's reach? BAM, giant rock to face!

[John Longarrow]

For myself, what would really make the Tarrasque a much more interesting enemy is also fairly simple and thematic.

Every so often it just "Fades away".

If reduced below half HP, it "Fades" over one round. Game effect is to teleport to a random location on the same plane, but it arrives some time in the future fully restored.

Basically to kill it you need to do massive damage in one round AND SURVIVE.

No, its not harder to beat, but it is a lot harder to kill.

The Fade would be at a godlike level of power, so very hard to stop it from happening.

[Khatoblepas]

If the Terrasque needs a ranged attack, there's only one option that really makes sense.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/123441/3652081-slika-6.png

I'd probably say give him 15d12 Force Damage (akin to a Young Force Dragon), with the carrier effect of a Mordenkainen's Disjunction on anything that is in it's line of effect. The puny flying wizard gets hit with that, and he's basically stripped of all of his buffs and spells. Though it makes me wonder if the beam would dispel any Contingencies. It probably should, even if GDM and MD don't do that. Maybe add in the effects of Antimagic Field as well. Basically getting hit with the Terrasque's "radiation breath" should be a death sentence, and it using it should cause a massive amount of stress to everyone involved. Apart from the Terrasque, who can use his breath weapon as a free action 1/round.

You could also take cues from Cloverfield, and have mini terrasques with the Carapace special quality bud off of it, like medium sized beetles, that fly around the Terrasque with a mini version of the Terrasque's breath weapon. Perhaps just 5d12 Force and Greater Dispel Magic. That way, even if you're flying and trying to attack Big T, he has minions that protect him with their life.

He might also be able to fire off some of the spikes on his shell that explode with an effect akin to the sonic version of Apocalypse From The Sky as cast by a 20th level caster, as a free action once per minute. This isn't so much for defense, rather it makes being around the Terrasque very very difficult. The Terrasque and the Minirasques would be immune to this, of course.

Adding in some more kaiju inspired abilities makes the Terrasque more of the Terror of the Land it is, rather than just a dumb monster. Think about it more as a Mobile Weapon Platform than a beast that just kind of stomps around attacking things in melee.

[Lightlawbliss]

If the Terrasque needs a ranged attack, there's only one option that really makes sense.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/123441/3652081-slika-6.png

I'd probably say give him 15d12 Force Damage (akin to a Young Force Dragon), with the carrier effect of a Mordenkainen's Disjunction on anything that is in it's line of effect. The puny flying wizard gets hit with that, and he's basically stripped of all of his buffs and spells. Though it makes me wonder if the beam would dispel any Contingencies. It probably should, even if GDM and MD don't do that. Maybe add in the effects of Antimagic Field as well. Basically getting hit with the Terrasque's "radiation breath" should be a death sentence, and it using it should cause a massive amount of stress to everyone involved. Apart from the Terrasque, who can use his breath weapon as a free action 1/round.

You could also take cues from Cloverfield, and have mini terrasques with the Carapace special quality bud off of it, like medium sized beetles, that fly around the Terrasque with a mini version of the Terrasque's breath weapon. Perhaps just 5d12 Force and Greater Dispel Magic. That way, even if you're flying and trying to attack Big T, he has minions that protect him with their life.

He might also be able to fire off some of the spikes on his shell that explode with an effect akin to the sonic version of Apocalypse From The Sky as cast by a 20th level caster, as a free action once per minute. This isn't so much for defense, rather it makes being around the Terrasque very very difficult. The Terrasque and the Minirasques would be immune to this, of course.

Adding in some more kaiju inspired abilities makes the Terrasque more of the Terror of the Land it is, rather than just a dumb monster. Think about it more as a Mobile Weapon Platform than a beast that just kind of stomps around attacking things in melee.

This wins by rule of cool but is a death sentence to any thought of balance. (line of force damage which also packs one of the most painful spells in the game, in and out of character...)

though a breath weapon wouldn't be out of place.

[Rebel7284]

Step 1. Have a high level telepath true mind switch into the tarasque.
Step 2. Psychic reformation.
Step 3. ???
Step 4. Profit!

[Chronos]

I did this exact thread once, years ago (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87000).

There are a few ways to get flight, at the cost of 2 or 3 feats (depends on the method). The cheapest is Shape Soulmeld: Astral Vambraces combined with Open Chakra: Arms, but it's a fairly slow speed. Faster flight is available from 3 feats, in multiple possible ways: The least-controvertial is Martial Study for some Shadow Hand maneuvers, followed by Martial Stance for Balance on the Sky.

Steadfast Determination can, as others have mentioned, significantly improve its (relatively) weak Will save, and make it essentially immune to anything that offers a Fort save.

Martial Study can give it a few useful action options including teleportation, but they're only usable 1/encounter, since without class levels, it gets no refresh mechanic. Adaptive Style won't work, since it has a prerequisite of a level in swordsage, warblade, or crusader. On the other hand, you might be taking those feats anyway as prerequisites to get a stance, so even 1/encounter might be worthwhile.

Shape Soulmeld gives a few interesting options. Keeneye Goggles bound to the soul chakra gives always-on True Seeing, and (not mentioned in that thread) Crystal Helm bound to crown gives the ability to hit incorporeal and ethereal opponents, as well as further shoring up that will save a bit.

[TrueJordan]

Also needs immunity from falling objects since you can just fly above it, and ya know, drop trees on it till it rolls a 1 on reflex saves... gg

[Haldir]

Give it construct traits.

Alternatively, give it the Construct type, and have it be the villians cliche master plan to "UNLEASH THE MOST POWERFUL MONSTER MAGIC HAS EVER CREATED!"

[Blackfang108]

Give it construct traits.

Alternatively, give it the Construct type, and have it be the villians cliche master plan to "UNLEASH THE MOST POWERFUL MONSTER MAGIC HAS EVER CREATED!"

Wouldn't that just be Mecha-tarrasque?

Built by the starfaring Neogi as part of a plot to take over this part of the Prime Material Plane, stopped by the Tarrasque, another legendary monster and an Artificer with a strange pipe.

[prufock]

Yeah, six instances of Martial Study/Martial Stance should do it. I'm thinking any Iron Heart maneuver + Ironheart Surge, 3 Shadow Hand maneuvers (Shadow Noose for a ranged touch attack damage debuff, either Shadow Blink or Cloak of Deception for hilarity, and Death in the Dark) + Balance on the Sky stance... that's flight, extra damage, sneaking, ranged attack, and a NO button to most effects.

[Shining Wrath]

Also needs immunity from falling objects since you can just fly above it, and ya know, drop trees on it till it rolls a 1 on reflex saves... gg

I don't think a falling tree would do more than 20D6 damage, which is a mild annoyance to Big T.

Really, though, shouldn't the Tarrasque have Giant Bane, just in case?

[Phelix-Mu]

I don't think a falling tree would do more than 20D6 damage, which is a mild annoyance to Big T.


I think falling objects do something like d6 per 20lbs or something, don't they? The trees from tree token are colossal objects, and thus weigh many tons.

Pretty sure it's something stupid like:

- Damage taken by falling person is capped.

- Damage caused by falling person/object is not.

[TrueJordan]

I think falling objects do something like d6 per 20lbs or something, don't they? The trees from tree token are colossal objects, and thus weigh many tons.

Pretty sure it's something stupid like:

- Damage taken by falling person is capped.

- Damage caused by falling person/object is not.

This is correct, except that the feather token trees aren't colossal, 'merely' Large, and an oak with 5' radius, 60 feet tall, weighs somewhere in the area of 2*38,600 pounds, so that's 386d6, with a 1/20 chance to hit (Assuming we're going according to the book that says they get a reflex save; RAW of Core mentions no such save). Get a team of a few guys and have a wizard or cleric cast fly, or wildshape as a bird, and anyone without reach weapons are effectively boned.

[Shinken]

Yeah, six instances of Martial Study/Martial Stance should do it. I'm thinking any Iron Heart maneuver + Ironheart Surge, 3 Shadow Hand maneuvers (Shadow Noose for a ranged touch attack damage debuff, either Shadow Blink or Cloak of Deception for hilarity, and Death in the Dark) + Balance on the Sky stance... that's flight, extra damage, sneaking, ranged attack, and a NO button to most effects.

Kung-fu Tarrasque? No, thanks.

[Phelix-Mu]

This is correct, except that the feather token trees aren't colossal, 'merely' Large, and an oak with 5' radius, 60 feet tall, weighs somewhere in the area of 2*38,600 pounds, so that's 386d6, with a 1/20 chance to hit (Assuming we're going according to the book that says they get a reflex save; RAW of Core mentions no such save). Get a team of a few guys and have a wizard or cleric cast fly, or wildshape as a bird, and anyone without reach weapons are effectively boned.

Wait, how is a 60' tall oak not colossal? Is there a chart somewhere for objects that is different than creatures?

[Ardantis]

Andion has the right idea-

Tarrasques are NOT a threat because they can defeat the party.

Tarrasques are a threat because they are headed towards the city/town/civilization which players value.

Power is not necessary.

Flying is not necessary.

Speed and defenses are the only necessities. The danger is that the Tarrasque will kill your low-level friends, not you and your party. It's supposed to play as an endurance battle against the clock for low-op.

[Icewraith]

Wait, how is a 60' tall oak not colossal? Is there a chart somewhere for objects that is different than creatures?

A 5' radius oak takes up the same space on a 2d game board as a large creature, therefore it is large. Or so I imagine the reasoning goes.

[TrueJordan]

A 5' radius oak takes up the same space on a 2d game board as a large creature, therefore it is large. Or so I imagine the reasoning goes.

That was my thinking; even if it's not technically 'large' because it's 'disproportionately' tall, it effectively is because of it's width.

[Psyren]

Martial Study :smallbiggrin:

[Rebel7284]

Do note that martial study and martial stance can only be taken up to 3 times each as I recall.

[Phelix-Mu]

That was my thinking; even if it's not technically 'large' because it's 'disproportionately' tall, it effectively is because of it's width.

No, that doesn't sound accurate. Note, many huge giants probably have leg diameter less than 5', but they take up a larger area on the game board. The space an object takes up may vary slightly by relevant height, but all things that take up space tend to do so by roughly estimating a cube into which the majority of the object may fit. It is terribly inaccurate to suggest that most of a 60' tall oak with a 40' wide canopy fits into the space of a large(tall) creature. Obviously, if all the creatures involved are operating at less than 10' in height, a DM may reasonably simplify the oak to taking up a 10' square. But if you are trying to hide from the Tarrasque amid a bunch of 60' oaks, which at Big T's height are likely 20-40' in width, the established paradigm of the game is to pick a cube big enough to hold most of the tree.

In the PHB, page 166, a colossal object is described as being as big as the broad side of a barn. Gargantuan is as big as the narrow side of a barn. Huge is the size of a wagon. Large is a big door. The oak is clearly larger than a door.

/rant

[Mr Adventurer]

Mage Slayer feat chain is hilarious.

Also templates are where it's at. Half Fiendish. Caster Level 48 Blasphemy?

[Waker]

The Mage Slayer line of feats is very handy for T.
Shape Soulmeld and Open X Chakra goes very well with: Crystal Helm to deal with incorporeal/ethereal targets, Planar Ward to ignore possession/mind control tactics, Keeneye Goggles to deal with invisible/ethereal targets, Blink Shirt to get around BFC effects, Airstep Sandals or Astral Vambraces (Astral Construct A Fly) to get him airborne.

[ShurikVch]

Epic Destiny (Eternal Hero or Demigod)

[TrueJordan]

No, that doesn't sound accurate. Note, many huge giants probably have leg diameter less than 5', but they take up a larger area on the game board. The space an object takes up may vary slightly by relevant height, but all things that take up space tend to do so by roughly estimating a cube into which the majority of the object may fit. It is terribly inaccurate to suggest that most of a 60' tall oak with a 40' wide canopy fits into the space of a large(tall) creature. Obviously, if all the creatures involved are operating at less than 10' in height, a DM may reasonably simplify the oak to taking up a 10' square. But if you are trying to hide from the Tarrasque amid a bunch of 60' oaks, which at Big T's height are likely 20-40' in width, the established paradigm of the game is to pick a cube big enough to hold most of the tree.

In the PHB, page 166, a colossal object is described as being as big as the broad side of a barn. Gargantuan is as big as the narrow side of a barn. Huge is the size of a wagon. Large is a big door. The oak is clearly larger than a door.

/rant


That's fair enough, but that wasn't the point, to hide amongst trees, it was to drop them trees on Tarry and crush his body.