Chordsage!

[RavynsLand]

Was thinking something over the other day, wondering what you guys think. Not massively interested in optimizing/min-maxing, but would want it to be effective.

1. Bard 1 -- BAB0 -- Improved Unarmed Strike
2. Bard 2 -- BAB1
3. Bard 3 -- BAB2 -- Elven Weapon Proficiency
4. Bard 4 -- BAB3
5. Swordsage 1 -- BAB3
6. Swordsage 1 -- BAB4 -- Ascetic Mage
7. Bard 5 -- BAB4
8. Bard 6 -- BAB5
9. Bard 7 -- BAB6 -- Weapon Finesse
10. Jade Phoenix Mage 1 -- BAB7
11. Sublime Chord 1 -- BAB7
12. Jade Phoenix Mage 2 -- BAB8 -- Improved Toughness
13. Jade Phoenix Mage 3 -- BAB9
14. Jade Phoenix Mage 4 -- BAB10
15. Jade Phoenix Mage 5 -- BAB11 -- Improved Critical
16. Jade Phoenix Mage 6 -- BAB12
17. Jade Phoenix Mage 7 -- BAB13
18. Jade Phoenix Mage 8 -- BAB14 -- [empty]
19. Jade Phoenix Mage 9 -- BAB15
20. Jade Phoenix Mage 10 -- BAB16

(Man hopefully I can get more feats than that o_o)

Ideally, this is an elf who uses Weapon Finesse with an Elven Court Sword. Take Ascetic Mage as soon as possible, so that you get Dex + Cha + light armor, and can still cast spells. You'd end up with 9th-level spells, 7th-level maneuvers, and a +16 BAB. You'd be a little on the squishy side, so take Improved Toughness as soon as possible. Focus on boosting your stats rather than combat options with feats, since spellcasting and maneuvers give you plenty of options and you have to make up for your low HP and BAB.

The reason I toss in so much bard instead of going warmage is, amazingly, for the skills and social abilities. The ability to play a swordsage who has full bard casting and is a sweet-talker who can get anywhere, do anything, and get anyone on his side would be pretty awesome, in my opinion. Your AC'd be high as hell, too, and once you get your tactical maneuvers and feats laid out you'd be the ultimate battlefield manipulator, able to use music and fight too.

Thoughts, gang? Would this be too weak or too strong for a non-powerplaying party? Does it lean too far in either direction, or is there something I'm missing out on?

[Yorrin]

It would be alright except.... Swordsage doesn't get White Raven. You'd want to switch to one of the other two classes, probably Crusader for a little Cha synergy and easier action economy.

[RavynsLand]

It would be alright except.... Swordsage doesn't get White Raven. You'd want to switch to one of the other two classes, probably Crusader for a little Cha synergy and easier action economy.

Holy crap, they don't?

how... how did I miss that...? O_O

Still kinda wanna do it anyway, though, because SS's get all those skills, and I'd like to be able to keep all my skills above water. Which other disciplines would work, if I didn't use WR?

[RavynsLand]

Also Crusader wouldn't get the cha to AC which is what I really want, too.

[Yorrin]

Well, White Raven is the whole reason to multiclass Bard with ToB. If you're not doing that then you might as well switch out your base to, for example, Wizard and then do something like Wizard 4/Swordsage 2/Jade Phoenix Mage 10/Abjurant Champion 5. Use KungFu genius instead of Ascetic Mage for Int to AC. The problem with this is it only gets 8th level spells, so it's not a true gish, but at 17BAB you've got all the melee flavor you like.

[RavynsLand]

That's a possibility, though I have been wanting to make a full-fat Bard for a while so that I can actually take advantage of the social conundrums many other players ignore since they don't have the skillset to deal with them. Though recently fell in love with maneuvers after seeing my brother's warblade in action.

What if I took a more lethal, combat-based or stealth-based discipline to make the Chordsage more single-combat oriented, with the bard stuff mostly being used out of combat?

[Talya]

Jade Phoenix Mage would tie this together a bit better, I think.

You would need:
Bard 1-7 (not necessarily all in a row)
Swordsage 1-2.
Jade Phoenix Mage 1 @ level 10.
Sublime Chord 1 @ level 11.
Jade Phoenix Mage 2-10

This nets you 9th level spells and still gives you excellent maneuver progression. You'd still need feats to take a few white raven maneuvers, if you wanted them.

[Rebel7284]

Since TOB PrCs progress all initiator classes at the same time, there is nothing wrong with dipping both swordsage and crusader and the progressing them with Jade Phoenix Mage.

Edit: Also, if your DM is ok with Versatile Spellcaster + Highten Spell counting as casting higher level spells, you can squeeze in a lot more initiator levels.

Something like Bard 4/Crusader 2/Swordsage 2/Warblade 1/JFM1//Sublime Chord 1/JPM +9 sounds amusing.

[RavynsLand]

Jade Phoenix Mage would tie this together a bit better, I think.

You would need:
Bard 1-7 (not necessarily all in a row)
Swordsage 1-2.
Jade Phoenix Mage 1 @ level 10.
Sublime Chord 1 @ level 11.
Jade Phoenix Mage 2-10

This nets you 9th level spells and still gives you excellent maneuver progression. You'd still need feats to take a few white raven maneuvers, if you wanted them.

Oh wow. That's much better. I'm still kinda new to ToB so JPM never entered my mind.

Edit: Editing the OP to this.

[Yorrin]

That's a possibility, though I have been wanting to make a full-fat Bard for a while so that I can actually take advantage of the social conundrums many other players ignore since they don't have the skillset to deal with them. Though recently fell in love with maneuvers after seeing my brother's warblade in action.

What if I took a more lethal, combat-based or stealth-based discipline to make the Chordsage more single-combat oriented, with the bard stuff mostly being used out of combat?

It's possible. Shadow Hand has some moderately decent Stealth stuff, and Diamind Mind or Tiger Claw both have some decent combat abilities, depending on your build.

The reason you mix Bard and ToB, as I alluded to before, is Song of the White Raven. Which progresses Inspire Courage based on Warblade/Crusader. Which is further improved by the feat Dragonfire Inspiration. It makes, for example, a Bard 4/Crusader 16 give the whole party +4d6 damage to weapon attacks in addition to being fearsome in battle himself/herself. And that's before other feats like Song of the Heart or Words of Creation, which can up that +4d6 to a +10d6. That's why you mix ToB and Bard. If you're not doing that... it seems like a mockery of the potential.

EDIT: Wow, a lot got posted while I was writing this up. The JPM build with Sublime Chord is much better than mine. Use it.

[RavynsLand]

Edited the OP to show off the new build.

*fluffs and admires it* The Chordsage is complete. :D

[Rebel7284]

If you take the swordsage levels later, you have start with higher level maneuvers.

[RavynsLand]

If you take the swordsage levels later, you have start with higher level maneuvers.

I thought about that, but man, try playing a pure-blooded Bard for 7 levels straight. O_O I'd need those maneuvers to keep myself from dying, and you have to have some kinda foundation of maneuvers as prerequisites anyway.

[Yorrin]

I thought about that, but man, try playing a pure-blooded Bard for 7 levels straight. O_O I'd need those maneuvers to keep myself from dying, and you have to have some kinda foundation of maneuvers as prerequisites anyway.

I have played as high as eight levels of "pure-blooded" Bard before and it was absolutely fine. Between Dragonfire Inspiration, Glitterdust, and social skills you'll be fine.

[Talya]

I thought about that, but man, try playing a pure-blooded Bard for 7 levels straight. O_O I'd need those maneuvers to keep myself from dying, and you have to have some kinda foundation of maneuvers as prerequisites anyway.

Bard is an awesome class. I can play it from 1-20 without a PrC.

I'd seriously recommend taking at least 4 bard levels before your first swordsage level. That gives you level 2 maneuvers (IL3) to start with from your first batch. Then take 2 more bard levels (IL4) before taking your second swordsage level (IL5), and get a level 3 maneuver out of the deal. Then take bard 7 before moving on to JPM.

Edit: Also, love the name "Chordsage."

[RavynsLand]

I pushed up the 2nd-level swordsage dip up, but I want to have two levels of it by level 6 so that I can take Ascetic Mage and get that AC boost. ^-^

[RavynsLand]

Also, love the name "Chordsage."

Thanks, I was proud of it myself. :D

[Rebel7284]

Weapon Focus? Improved Critical? There are better feats you can take at that point.

[RavynsLand]

Weapon Focus? Improved Critical? There are better feats you can take at that point.

Yeah, those are placeholders until I get more familiar with ToB's feats. I'm going through the book right now.

Though with a court sword (already 18-20) Improved Crit is pretty nice.

[DrMike105]

Weapon focus is unnecessary, as the first swordsage level gives you weapon focus in all weapons of a given discipline.

[RavynsLand]

Weapon focus is unnecessary, as the first swordsage level gives you weapon focus in all weapons of a given discipline.

You're right, actually. Diamond Mind gives rapier which applies to the court sword. *facepalms* Thanks for the reminder. Weapon focus is unneeded.

[Incanur]

Bard is an awesome class. I can play it from 1-20 without a PrC.

People still don't seem to realize how solid the 3.5 bard is. I'm not sure why bards have such a poor reputation.

[Keld Denar]

A little more Inspire Courage optimization would go a long way. At least take Songs of the Heart from the Ebberon Campaign Setting. That increases IC by 1, which gives +1 hit and +1 damage for your whole party, contrasted with Weapon Focus only increases YOUR hit by 1. You want to buy a Badge if Valor ASAP as well, and make sure you have Inspirational Boost on your first level spell list for another +1. That gives you a +4 song by about level 4. If you can get a Vest of Legends later in life, that good up to +5, but those are expensive. I'd take Melodic Casting from Complete Mage as well so you can cast while singing.

Finally, Whirling Blade. Look it up. You're welcome.

[Yorrin]

People still don't seem to realize how solid the 3.5 bard is. I'm not sure why bards have such a poor reputation.

I know that until I decided to play one I thought that they sucked at combat and had no good spells. I basically thought that they just used inspire courage all combat long, and nothing else. Then I decided to play one and actually did my research, and was blown away by the power ceiling on the class.

[RavynsLand]

Well, in my groups we usually house-rule some extra feats so I should have enough leeway to get some music feats as well as some ToB feats. :D

Also I'm focusing more on being a social warrior-trickster than a buffer. The people I play with, man.

Last session I was in, our ninja stayed invisible through the entire combat and forced our Wizard to tank. So I wanna make sure my character is a boss before I focus on theirs.

[Keld Denar]

Inspire Courage is great for you, though. You aren't really a buffer, so much as a self made powerhouse who happens to splash over to others. I'm fact, the only buffs I'd suggest are Inspire Courage and Haste. Both are very beneficial to you, and also play well with others. What melee character doesn't want +5 hit, +4 damage, double move speed and an extra attack on a full attack? Set up both of then and then go to town with your sword. You will benefit. If anyone else also benefits, claim as much credit as possible along the way.

There aren't that many good ToB feats for you. Most of then are crap, the rest don't really work for you. If you do Shadow Hand, you could use Shadow Blade, but then you'd have to switch to a different weapon. I wouldn't even take Adaptive Style as most Swordsages do, since you will have enough spells to back up your maneuvers you shouldn't need to refresh in combat at all.

[Hytheter]

Just so you know, you can't actually take weapon Finesse at level 1, since it has a +1 BAB prerequisite which neither Bard nor Swordsages can meet at first level.

Also, when you say court sword do you mean the Elven Courtblade or something else? If it is the Courtblade, you need Exotic Weapon Proficiency to wield it (being an elf does not make you proficient). Also:

You're right, actually. Diamond Mind gives rapier which applies to the court sword. *facepalms* Thanks for the reminder. Weapon focus is unneeded.
It counts as a Greatsword, not a Rapier.


Chordsage is an awesome name though

[RavynsLand]

Maybe I'm underestimating Inspire Courage. I'm gonna go read about it again, did it get a huge boost in 3.5? I remember playing a bard briefly a couple times and I really sucked, and so did bardic music.

The fact that you have to sing/orate if you wanna fight also kinda bums me out, but I'll put some thought into that. Maybe I can have some kind of ongoing soliloquy of lofty, wrathful statements.

[RavynsLand]

Just so you know, you can't actually take weapon Finesse at level 1, since it has a +1 BAB prerequisite which neither Bard nor Swordsages can meet at first level.

Chordsage is an awesome name though

You're correct, another mistake on my part. I actually forget that frequently, since I keep feeling it's basically FOR rogues. >.> I'll edit that.

[Hytheter]

You're correct, another mistake on my part. I actually forget that frequently, since I keep feeling it's basically FOR rogues. >.> I'll edit that.

I edited my post with some other stuff I noticed, just so you know.

[Talya]

Look at Snowflake Wardance, Song of the Heart, and Dragonfire Inspiration. You can actually get these as ACFs rather than feats if you really want them.

[RavynsLand]

Look at Snowflake Wardance, Song of the Heart, and Dragonfire Inspiration. You can actually get these as ACFs rather than feats if you really want them.

ACF's? I'm not familiar with this term.

And those all look pretty awesome (though I'm not that keen on making a draconic character), I'll definitely keep them in mind. It's a shame Bardic Music can't be based on Perform (dance) or I'd totally use that.

[Seerow]

Maybe I'm underestimating Inspire Courage. I'm gonna go read about it again, did it get a huge boost in 3.5? I remember playing a bard briefly a couple times and I really sucked, and so did bardic music.

Bardic Music out of the box isn't the greatest, but still fairly meaningful as a +1-+4 bonus to hit and damage. But there's a ton of things that boost it, to the point where you can have the Bard giving your entire group +12-14 to hit and damage. Or with Dragonfire Inspiration turn that into +12d6-14d6 sonic damage.



And those all look pretty awesome (though I'm not that keen on making a draconic character), I'll definitely keep them in mind. It's a shame Bardic Music can't be based on Perform (dance) or I'd totally use that.


Um... I'm pretty sure it can be. Bardic Music can go off any perform you want, unless something's changed that I'm not aware of.

[RavynsLand]

Um... I'm pretty sure it can be. Bardic Music can go off any perform you want, unless something's changed that I'm not aware of.

I just looked at it and it was super vague. It was basically like "Y'know singing, poetry, whatever, stuff like that." I think it is supposed to be audible though though I'm unsure.

[Seerow]

I just looked at it and it was super vague. It was basically like "Y'know singing, poetry, whatever, stuff like that." I think it is supposed to be audible though though I'm unsure.

I'm not 100% sure on the RAW (though looking at it I don't see why not, it just says any perform skill), but I know in my games we've had characters with stuff ranging from Perform(Bad Pun) and Perform(Dashing Smile) [for silly characters] to characters with Perform(Dance) and Perform(Weapon Drill) [for characters who inspire by doing up on the front lines], to characters with Perform(Oratory) and Perform(Singing) [for those who inspire vocally, either through music or speeches].

The last time I made a Bard, he used Perform(Tesla Coil), with a magical portable tesla coil he would throw down and use to make music. All of his spells were lightning themed and he had Dragonfire Inspiration (electric). Everything he did was fluffed as him manipulating the tesla coil's energy into various effects.

[RavynsLand]

Well, once my crappy monk dies or a new campaign opens up for me to create the Chordsage in, I'll ask the DM about it. I'd way rather have a dancelike fighting style that both inspires and destroys. :D

[RavynsLand]

I edited my post with some other stuff I noticed, just so you know.

Whoops, I did miss it.


Just so you know, you can't actually take weapon Finesse at level 1, since it has a +1 BAB prerequisite which neither Bard nor Swordsages can meet at first level.

Also, when you say court sword do you mean the Elven Courtblade or something else? If it is the Courtblade, you need Exotic Weapon Proficiency to wield it (being an elf does not make you proficient). Also:

It counts as a Greatsword, not a Rapier.


Chordsage is an awesome name though

Fix'd that bit already.

I meant the Courtblade yes, and once again you're correct. I'll just have to take Stone Dragon rather than Diamond Mind right off the bat.

Yup. I had it mixed up with Pathfinder elves, who can use any weapon that says "elven." But elves drew the short stick in 3.5 as they're the only non-human race that can't do that. I'll have to take a feat for it (ugh!)

And thank you. ^_^

Edit: I've been making an outright bizarre amount of mistakes today, I usually have this stuff down pat. I blame the fact that the various settings change so subtly, and sometimes something changes from book to book.

[Nagukuk]

Whoops, I did miss it.



Fix'd that bit already.

I meant the Courtblade yes, and once again you're correct. I'll just have to take Stone Dragon rather than Diamond Mind right off the bat.

Yup. I had it mixed up with Pathfinder elves, who can use any weapon that says "elven." But elves drew the short stick in 3.5 as they're the only non-human race that can't do that. I'll have to take a feat for it (ugh!)

And thank you. ^_^

Edit: I've been making an outright bizarre amount of mistakes today, I usually have this stuff down pat. I blame the fact that the various settings change so subtly, and sometimes something changes from book to book.

Elvin Thinblade is the rapier type weapon

[RavynsLand]

Well, since my monk died horribly I did end up starting the Chordsage build. Currently fifth level (Bard4/Swordsage1). We're getting some extra feats (every other level) so I made a Half-Drow with a Spiked Chain, moving towards the Vae School when I can get it. Currently he's a much better diplomancer/skillmonkey than he is a fighter, but his heals and battlefield manip spells have made him really useful nonetheless. Just got my level of swordsage and am focusing mostly on Shadow Hand, Desert Wind, and Diamond Mind as far as maneuvers go.

[Chronos]

I'll second the recommendation for Melodic Casting, as the lack of ability to cast while singing was my biggest annoyance when I played a bard. Basically, I had a lot of uses of bardic music available, so I'd always start that at the start of combat (if I didn't have it up already-- You can keep Inspire Courage going for as long as you'd like on a single usage), and then if the combat turned out to be a challenging one, I'd want to drop a buff spell like Haste... But that meant I'd have to stop singing. If you're going Sublime Chord, your spells will be all the more relevant, and so Melodic Casting would be even more useful for you.

[Abithrios]

I, too, have recently discovered the awesomeness that is ToB. I am having a lot of fun with my bard/crusader/jade phoenix mage using dragonfire inspiration and focusing on devoted spirit.


Yeah, those are placeholders until I get more familiar with ToB's feats. I'm going through the book right now.

Though with a court sword (already 18-20) Improved Crit is pretty nice.

The specific reason that people were suggesting crusader or warblade is the feat song of the white raven, which allows swift action singing in a white raven stance and lets warblade and crusader levels to stack with bard for the purpose of inspire courage.

If you want to play a swordsage, I am sure it will be a lot of fun (ToB characters are relatively hard to mess up), and you have a great name picked for the build. I just saw a lot of people making suggestions for white raven, but did not notice anyone point out the feat in particular.

[Adverb]

Huh. I've been kicking around a Bard/JPM/SC build myself, and maybe we can compare notes?

So far I've got this:

1. Bard 1 -- (Skill Focus: Perform, Negotiator)
2. Bard 2
3. Bard 3 -- (Song of the Heart)
4. Bard 4
5. [ToB class 1]
6. Jade Phoenix Mage 1 -- ?
7. Jade Phoenix Mage 2
8. Heartfire Fanner 1
9. Heartfire Fanner 2 -- ?
10. Heartfire Fanner 3
11. Sublime Chord 1
12. Heartfire Fanner 4 -- ?
13. Heartfire Fanner 5
14. Jade Phoenix Mage 3 (probably?)
[insert full caster progression here?]

There's some holes here and I'm not sure what to do. I'm not sure which ToB class to take, for one. The portmanteau "Warbard" is fun, but "Chordsage" is even more awesome. I have this idea that a JPM wants to be a Crusader for no-action recovery, but between spells, maneuvers, and music, maybe the idea that this character will ever run out of things to do in a single encounter is sort of ridiculous.

Mostly, I'm looking forward to using Heartfire Fanner to randomly hand out Martial Study mid-combat. Not sure what else to do with the rest of the build.

[RavynsLand]

Huh. I've been kicking around a Bard/JPM/SC build myself, and maybe we can compare notes?

So far I've got this:

1. Bard 1 -- (Skill Focus: Perform, Negotiator)
2. Bard 2
3. Bard 3 -- (Song of the Heart)
4. Bard 4
5. [ToB class 1]
6. Jade Phoenix Mage 1 -- ?
7. Jade Phoenix Mage 2
8. Heartfire Fanner 1
9. Heartfire Fanner 2 -- ?
10. Heartfire Fanner 3
11. Sublime Chord 1
12. Heartfire Fanner 4 -- ?
13. Heartfire Fanner 5
14. Jade Phoenix Mage 3 (probably?)
[insert full caster progression here?]

There's some holes here and I'm not sure what to do. I'm not sure which ToB class to take, for one. The portmanteau "Warbard" is fun, but "Chordsage" is even more awesome. I have this idea that a JPM wants to be a Crusader for no-action recovery, but between spells, maneuvers, and music, maybe the idea that this character will ever run out of things to do in a single encounter is sort of ridiculous.

Mostly, I'm looking forward to using Heartfire Fanner to randomly hand out Martial Study mid-combat. Not sure what else to do with the rest of the build.

I'm enjoying my Chordsage so far (he's fifth level) but supposedly Crusader/Warblade is the "right" way to go, because of White Raven/Song of the White Raven. I wanted Swordsage because I wanted the greater range of maneuvers and also wanted the build to be a highly skill-oriented one, so honestly I'd say it depends on what kind of playstyle you wanna use. If you wanna be more of a buffer/tank, Crusader is probably the way to go. The Chordsage is better as just a skillful caster/duelist type character, less efficient as a buffer or proper bard.

[RavynsLand]

I, too, have recently discovered the awesomeness that is ToB. I am having a lot of fun with my bard/crusader/jade phoenix mage using dragonfire inspiration and focusing on devoted spirit.



The specific reason that people were suggesting crusader or warblade is the feat song of the white raven, which allows swift action singing in a white raven stance and lets warblade and crusader levels to stack with bard for the purpose of inspire courage.

If you want to play a swordsage, I am sure it will be a lot of fun (ToB characters are relatively hard to mess up), and you have a great name picked for the build. I just saw a lot of people making suggestions for white raven, but did not notice anyone point out the feat in particular.

Yeah a couple people did mention it, and I thought about it but honestly it wasn't the flavor I wanted for the character. Also, it's a shame to waste the Ascetic Mage AC boost, not to mention a shame to waste the Chordsage title. :3 I've already made my character and he's pretty terrific thus far (Hideous Laughter! Mwahahaha).

[Big Fau]

So you're aware, Song of the White Raven doesn't scale with Initiator Level, only Warblade/Crusader level. Neither Swordsage or Jade Phoenix Mage will boost it, so Dragonfire Inspiration isn't going to help nearly as much as it could.

[Adverb]

Song of the White Raven is okay for someone who's fighty first, buffer bard second. If your priority is to buff your party, your first round is usually going to be Inspire Courage + Inspirational Boost, so you've spent a feat to lower that bonus by one. But for someone who's only got one or two levels of Bard and the rest in Cru/War, it's a pretty boss first-round swift action.

I am totally being won over by the term "Chordsage".

[DCraw]

Song of the White Raven is okay for someone who's fighty first, buffer bard second. If your priority is to buff your party, your first round is usually going to be Inspire Courage + Inspirational Boost, so you've spent a feat to lower that bonus by one. But for someone who's only got one or two levels of Bard and the rest in Cru/War, it's a pretty boss first-round swift action.

I am totally being won over by the term "Chordsage".

I'd disagree with that entirely. If you're a Buffer Bard, your first round standard action will either be Inspire Courage, DFI, or Haste. Song of the White Raven allows you to combine any two of those. Typically, you'll start performing as a swift action (IC, +10 attack, +8 damage*), stop singing as a free action, then either cast Haste or start performing again (DFI, +10d6 fire or sonic**).

If you're a fighty bard, that swift action has to compete with your boosts and counters.

Also, the reason why Crusader/Warblade vs Swordsage matters comes down to breakpoint management. Wearing a Vest of Legends adds +5 Bard levels for the purpose of calculating your IC bonus. This means that you want to have either at least either 3 or 9 Bard(/Crusader/Warblade) levels to meet the breakpoints for +2 or +3 respectively. With Words of Chaos, choosing Swordsage over Crusader is essentially costing you and your party +2 to attack/damage and or +2d6 fire or sonic damage unless you take 9 levels of Bard.

*Assuming 9 total levels of Bard and Warblade/Crusader, a Vest of Legends, a Masterwork Mandolin, Song of the Heart, and Words of Creation.

**Upgrading your DFI damage from fire to sonic takes 1-2 extra feat(s). A Silverbrow Human can take DFI as a feat without any prerequisites. For that character to change the energy type to sonic would then take an additional 2 feats: Dragontouched and Draconic Heritage. A regular Human (or other race) would need to take Dragontouched in order to take DFI, and so upgrading would only cost them one feat (Draconic Heritage).

[Larkas]

It's a shame Bardic Music can't be based on Perform (dance) or I'd totally use that.

For the record, the only Perform skill that can't be used with Bardic Music is Perform (Weapon Drill), and then only because it is specifically called out as such.

[Talya]

ACF's? I'm not familiar with this term.


Alternate Class Features.

[Big Fau]

For the record, the only Perform skill that can't be used with Bardic Music is Perform (Weapon Drill), and then only because it is specifically called out as such.

Actually:


Once per day per bard level, a bard can use his song or poetics to produce magical effects on those around him (usually including himself, if desired).

Dance isn't included in that list, and dance is neither a form of song or poem.

[Larkas]

Dance isn't included in that list, and dance is neither a form of song or poem.

:smallconfused: Weird. I must've somehow mixed things up by thinking of PF's Bardic Performance.

[squiggit]

:smallconfused: Weird. I must've somehow mixed things up by thinking of PF's Bardic Performance.

It's a bit strange because Weapon Drill explicitly says you can't use it with Bardic Music even though the (absurd and arbitrary) requirements for bardic music preclude weapon drills already.