how good would blighter be without the rp requirement?

[CyberThread]

Curious, how great would the blighter be, without the burning the forest down rp requirement ?

[eggynack]

Really bad. The blighter is mostly terrible because it trades away awesome druid magic for casting off of a much worse list, and despite the fact that your progression is sped up, you're still behind the druid in terms of your highest level of spell for most of your progression. The deforestation is annoying, but when people insult the blighter, the reason is based on what the class actually does.

[CN the Logos]

Curious, how great would the blighter be, without the burning the forest down rp requirement ?

Still comparatively terrible, because it exchanges druid casting (which is good) and wild shape (which is also good) for blighter casting (which is not good; it's been a while since I looked at the class, so I can't recall whether the list is bad in its own right or just bad compared to being a druid).

It wouldn't be that hard to homebrew an "anti-druid" in the vein of the paladin of slaughter; take the base druid, change the spells a bit, change the class features a bit to be more EEEEVIL, and you're done. But the blighter as is is a trap. Sorry. :smallfrown:

[Tommy2255]

It wouldn't be that hard to homebrew an "anti-druid" in the vein of the paladin of slaughter; take the base druid, change the spells a bit, change the class features a bit to be more EEEEVIL, and you're done. But the blighter as is is a trap. Sorry. :smallfrown:

The thing is, Druids can already be evil. They'd have to be NE, but there's nothing that says loving nature means you can't feed the children of the village to some Dire Bears and maybe also a devil (It's not like the bear is going to eat their souls. Waste not want not).

[BrokenChord]

Which doesn't even require homebrewing much... Druids can already be Neutral Evil.

I love the Blighter to death for being a sort of Up-Priest for Druids, and its spell list isn't *that* terrible. But people dislike it for the same reason you never see recommendations for Cleric 5/Ur-Priest 10. Those first 5 levels are just going to be sitting there uselessly. Forever.

[Jack_Simth]

Curious, how great would the blighter be, without the burning the forest down rp requirement ?
It is still rather difficult to make good use out of it. With a bit of early entry cheese, it becomes an interesting alternative to the Ur-Priest for theurges - a Druid-1/Wizard-2/[Full Arcane Advancement PrC combination]-6 (or 5 if using fractional BAB)/Blighter-1/Mystic Theurge-9/[Full Arcane Advancement PrC]-1 (or 2 if using fractional BAB) - using, say, sanctum spell + heighten spell + Earth Spell to qualify - is reasonably useful if you've removed the deforestation requirement (dual 9's). There's a fair number of Wizard spells on there that you'll only want to use a few times a day (like Mind Blank), and if you go necropolitan or tomb-tainted, it gives you a hefty amount of self-healing that way.

By and large, though, even without Deforestation, it's still not so grand.

[CN the Logos]

The thing is, Druids can already be evil. They'd have to be NE, but there's nothing that says loving nature means you can't feed the children of the village to some Dire Bears and maybe also a devil (It's not like the bear is going to eat their souls. Waste not want not).


Which doesn't even require homebrewing much... Druids can already be Neutral Evil.

Which is why I said "anti-druid" rather than "evil druid." The blighter class isn't an evil druid. The blighter class is meant to more or less emulate Captain Planet villains.

Neutral Evil druids are still druids, so they're more likely to be committing atrocities in the name of preserving nature, whereas the fluff for the blighter implies the kind of person who'd go out of her way to kill as many endangered frogs as possible for a skin cream because using her mountains of cash to see the world's best dermatologist is not nearly as fun as driving a species or three to extinction. Totally different motives there. Sometimes you just want to do your best Tim Curry impression and sing about how much you hate flora. :smalltongue:

[squiggit]

But people dislike it for the same reason you never see recommendations for Cleric 5/Ur-Priest 10. Those first 5 levels are just going to be sitting there uselessly.

This is the biggest thing. Blighter as a PrC isn't that awful, Undead wild shape is pretty cool. Their spell list is limited but has some nice stuff.

But the fact that you need to burn levels in druid and then lose almost everything you've earned in those levels? Even the best PrCs in the game would start looking pretty bad if you tacked on 5 extra levels that did absolutely nothing to the start of their progression.

Blighter for some weird reason doesn't seem to be designed with the fact that you lose all of your druidic class features when you take it in mind. The first few levels are especially miserable because a druid5/blighter1 (which is how I think they expect it to go) is basically a level 1 character with extra health and more accuracy.

[Grim Reader]

But the fact that you need to burn levels in druid and then lose almost everything you've earned in those levels?

Blighter for some weird reason doesn't seem to be designed with the fact that you lose all of your druidic class features when you take it in mind. The first few levels are especially miserable because a druid5/blighter1 (which is how I think they expect it to go) is basically a level 1 character with extra health and more accuracy.

Then don't enter from Druid. Thats totally a fluff requirement, and can be satisfied by fluff.

You're an Elan. You were a Druid, but your lust for immortality made you turn your back on the natural cycle to become an abomination.

You were a Druid, but undead creatures devoured your lifeforce, driving you mad, convincing you the only natural thing is a world like it was intended to be...cold, clean and silent. (Level drained)

You're a Hellbred...you were reincarnated (not the spell)...etc.

For Blighter, enter after 4 levels of a full-BaB class and stay ahead of the Ur-priest on spell levels. Slap on some PrC that expands your spell list, but get undead wild shape first.

If you're willing to use cheese like Earth spell and sanctum spell, why are you burning levels on just being an ex-Druid? There is so many other ways to be an Ex-Druid!

[CyberThread]

Could you get around that, by calling yourself a druid, and be a spirit shaman? You still cast 3rd level druid spells, but now your avoiding all the bad things.

[eggynack]

Then don't enter from Druid. Thats totally a fluff requirement, and can be satisfied by fluff.

You're an Elan. You were a Druid, but your lust for immortality made you turn your back on the natural cycle to become an abomination.

You were a Druid, but undead creatures devoured your lifeforce, driving you mad, convincing you the only natural thing is a world like it was intended to be...cold, clean and silent. (Level drained)

You're a Hellbred...you were reincarnated (not the spell)...etc.

For Blighter, enter after 4 levels of a full-BaB class and stay ahead of the Ur-priest on spell levels. Slap on some PrC that expands your spell list, but get undead wild shape first.

If you're willing to use cheese like Earth spell and sanctum spell, why are you burning levels on just being an ex-Druid? There is so many other ways to be an Ex-Druid!
I don't see how it's a fluff requirement at all, given that it's the single most intensive prerequisite in the entire class. In fact, aside from the alignment and BAB requirements, being a druid is the only prerequisite the class really has. This is practically the definition of a mechanical requirement, rather than a fluff one, given that it is entirely rooted in mechanics.

Could you get around that, by calling yourself a druid, and be a spirit shaman? You still cast 3rd level druid spells, but now your avoiding all the bad things.
I don't see how you're avoiding all the bad things. You presumably still lose all of your casting, as the class says that you lose your druid casting. If an ex-spirit shaman is a non-object, then that's evidence for this not working, rather than evidence for it working in your favor. Moreover, even if this is a thing, and you keep your spirit shaman casting for some reason, then you're still leaving that pile of casting by the wayside, and advancing this entirely separate casting. It's better, certainly, but it's definitely not good.

[Kraken]

Talontar blightlord is a way better 'anti druid' class. Sadly it's from a FR book, and there are enough people out there that functionally make it seem like that means it's from a different game that this is a concern in many instances.

[Grod_The_Giant]

If you want to redeem the Blighter, you'd need some sort of Blackguard-type deal, where you can trade ex-Druid levels for Blighter Levels. Or something; balance would obvious be preposterous on a 1:1 trade.

[eggynack]

Talontar blightlord is a way better 'anti druid' class. Sadly it's from a FR book, and there are enough people out there that functionally make it seem like that means it's from a different game that this is a concern in many instances.
That is accurate. It's not a particularly good class, primarily because it's essentially a one or two level dip class with two crappy prerequisite feats, but it won't actively destroy any druid that takes it either. That prestige domain is actually kinda nifty, especially as I'm pretty sure you can spontaneously summon out of those slots. The spells themselves certainly aren't all that great, so you'd probably want to run contemplative or something if you can't get your DM to agree to that. Holt warden is obviously better, because it doesn't have silly prerequisites, and because it has knowledge (religion), but a talontar blightlord is some decent business.

[Grim Reader]

I don't see how it's a fluff requirement at all, given that it's the single most intensive prerequisite in the entire class.

It is only the most intensive prerequisite of the class if you personally decide that at your table it can only be satisfied by one single meaning of the phrase "ex-Druid" Certainly if you want to throw away five levels of Druid on satisfying it, that is a legal way of qualifying. Its not a particularily good one, nor the only one. Maybe its even RAI. But it shure ain't RAW.


In fact, aside from the alignment and BAB requirements, being a druid is the only prerequisite the class really has. This is practically the definition of a mechanical requirement, rather than a fluff one, given that it is entirely rooted in mechanics.

It is a requirement relating to the backstory of your character, which may not have any bearing on the mechanics of the character. Like...was it Hunter of the Dead required you to have been dead at least once? That is almost the antonym of a mechanical requirement.

You can be an ex-Druid by being a Druid who falls, by loosing your Druid levels to energy drain, being reborn as an Elan, etc.

[eggynack]

It is only the most intensive prerequisite of the class if you personally decide that at your table it can only be satisfied by one single meaning of the phrase "ex-Druid" Certainly if you want to throw away five levels of Druid on satisfying it, that is a legal way of qualifying. Its not a particularily good one, nor the only one. Maybe its even RAI. But it shure ain't RAW.

It is a requirement relating to the backstory of your character, which may not have any bearing on the mechanics of the character. Like...was it Hunter of the Dead required you to have been dead at least once? That is almost the antonym of a mechanical requirement.

You can be an ex-Druid by being a Druid who falls, by loosing your Druid levels to energy drain, being reborn as an Elan, etc.
It looks a lot like ex-druid has an explicit and exact definition within the game rules. Moreover, you're required to have 3rd level druid spells prior to entry. It all seems very much mechanical.

[Abithrios]

If my entire comment seems like nitpicking over semantics, it's because that is exactly what the comment is, which is why I often prefer looser interpretations of rules instead of the kind of close reading of RAW I engage in below.


I don't see how it's a fluff requirement at all, given that it's the single most intensive prerequisite in the entire class. In fact, aside from the alignment and BAB requirements, being a druid is the only prerequisite the class really has. This is practically the definition of a mechanical requirement, rather than a fluff one, given that it is entirely rooted in mechanics.


Is "ex-druid" the same as "former druid"? If "ex-druid" only refers to someone with at least one level in the druid class who is not currently in good standing with nature/the gods/etc, then you are right.

On the other hand, if the answer to my question is "yes", then it would be perfectly possible to enter blighter without still having any druid levels.

Even if the answer is "no", then the prerequisites do not say that you still need to have enough levels of druid to cast third level spells. I am not sure of the best way to do this mechanically, but I believe there are ways of trading levels in one class for levels in other classes. If that is true, I see nothing that would prevent you from getting rid of all but one of the druid levels in favor of more useful classes, while still meeting the prerequisites of blighter, no matter how you read the term "ex-druid".




Could you get around that, by calling yourself a druid, and be a spirit shaman? You still cast 3rd level druid spells, but now your avoiding all the bad things.

You seem to be mixing different definitions of "druid", and using more than one definition for a given word is dangerous. It sounds like what you are suggesting is a person who has left a druidic community (and left behind the cultural identity associated with membership) to meet the "ex-druid" requirement, who has levels in the spirit shaman class to meet the "previously capable of casting 3rd-level druid spells" requirement, who "lose[s] their druid spellcasting abilities" derived from the (nonexistent) levels in the druid class. I will not say that such a reading is necessarily impossible, but I will guess that most DMs would reject it.

It would be far more straightforward to either interpret all references to druid as references to the class (probably what the designers intended) or as references to a particular cultural identity. In the latter case, you could meet the 3rd level casting requirement with any spellcasting class, as long as you once considered yourself a druid. You would however lose that spellcasting, even if it derives from something like the wizard class that has no code of conduct at all, due to the first sentence of the "Spells per Day" class feature.

[Kraken]

If you wanted to really nasty, you could say that you at one point had levels of druid, but lost them due to being raised from the dead, or some other level loss method of your choice. While having no levels in druid, it would be unquestionable that you were a druid at one time.

[eggynack]

Is "ex-druid" the same as "former druid"? If "ex-druid" only refers to someone with at least one level in the druid class who is not currently in good standing with nature/the gods/etc, then you are right.
This, at least, is a thing well defined well defined within the rules, and it means a druid who has taken action to lose druid abilities.



Even if the answer is "no", then the prerequisites do not say that you still need to have enough levels of druid to cast third level spells. I am not sure of the best way to do this mechanically, but I believe there are ways of trading levels in one class for levels in other classes. If that is true, I see nothing that would prevent you from getting rid of all but one of the druid levels in favor of more useful classes, while still meeting the prerequisites of blighter, no matter how you read the term "ex-druid".
It's certainly close to being RAW legal, and it might even be so. Still, even if you're playing an ex-druid 1/cool-guy 4, which is presumably how this character would look, you're not all that mechanically powerful. You're still running the exact same casting progression, except now you have four less useless levels, which is nice, but you're working off of a crappy list at a slow speed, which is bad. It's pretty much the same as what would happen if you were to allow a standard spirit shaman, as opposed to an ex-spirit shaman, as entry. Less bad, but still pretty bad. You're still a caster, which puts you ahead of the game when compared to a lot of classes, but that's just as true now as it was then.

[Kraken]

For what it's worth, Ex-Druid is a defined game term:

Ex-Druids
A druid who ceases to revere nature, changes to a prohibited alignment, or teaches the Druidic language to a nondruid loses all spells and druid abilities (including her animal companion, but not including weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She cannot thereafter gain levels as a druid until she atones (see the atonement spell description, page 201).

Now here's the text of blighter's entry requirement:

Special:The character must be an ex-druid previously capable of casting 3rd-level druid spells.

So, get to druid level 5, then lose some levels and cease to revere nature. Arguably you need to keep at least 1 druid level, as ex-druid is listed under the druid class, which makes it...a class feature, I guess?

[CyberThread]

what about the good ole fashion retraining class levels rules?


Yeah he use to be able to cast 3rd level druid spells,but nothing in the rules say he has to stay that way. Just had to be able to at one point or time.

[Kraken]

What, would my method break suspension of disbelief for you. :smallbiggrin:

Blighter wannabe: Hi, you have UMD as a skill and can reliably use scrolls? Great, here's these scrolls of raise dead. I need to kill myself four times, and I'd like you to raise me after each time.
Rogue: Uh....what?
Blighter wannabe: Right, four times. It's important, trust me.

[eggynack]

So, get to druid level 5, then lose some levels and cease to revere nature. Arguably you need to keep at least 1 druid level, as ex-druid is listed under the druid class, which makes it...a class feature, I guess?
That was pretty much the methodology I was assuming in my last post, so my stance there is my stance now. Right now, I'm thinking that the ideal way to do this is with some sort of theurge build, because you're losing those four levels anyway, so you might as well lose them to wizardry or something.

Edit: Actually, you'd probably want something with more BAB than that, given the prerequisites. That's somewhat annoying.