Is Time Hop really that good?

[Invader]

I'm looking at the description and it doesn't seem as useful as the psion handbook make it out to be. It allows for a save, a wisdom check each round and resistance. I can see the benefits of using it on an enemy (if its successful each round) as per the description in the handbook


Hoo, boy. So much utility! Remove a door, a link of a chain, the rope holding up a bridge, a low-Will save charging Barbarian, etc. Really, really great.


Am I just not seeing the utility on using it on items? Can someone explain how I could cast it and then remove a door as the description?

[Nerd-o-rama]

A locked door is in your way. Manifest Time Hop. Door disappears, you walk through it, door reappears. Duplicates Knock with significantly more style.

You are chained up. Manifest Time Hop on the chain, move, and fast-talk your DM into saying the chain will reappear in the same place relative to the planet, not your character.

You need to knock down a bridge or something that isn't one solid piece. Manifest Time Hop on a key support and watch it collapse, then watch the key piece pop back into existence after it's too late.

Basically it's got a million and one uses, replacing things like battering rams, axes, rogues...

[Invader]

When I read the description though it says the item "seems to dissappear" which seems to me that it'd still be there.

[squiggit]

When I read the description though it says the item "seems to dissappear" which seems to me that it'd still be there.

Seems as in it's not disappearing, merely getting shunted forward in time.

[Invader]

And dissappear doesn't necessarily mean doesn't exist anymore. If you cast invisibility on yourself you dissappear but you're still there.

[Flickerdart]

And dissappear doesn't necessarily mean doesn't exist anymore. If you cast invisibility on yourself you dissappear but you're still there.
The item is moved forward in time. It doesn't occupy the universe between the casting of the spell and the end of the duration.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I... huh? How could you read Time Hop as meaning it turned the target invisible and with no movement, but you can still interact with it?

[Nettlekid]

And dissappear doesn't necessarily mean doesn't exist anymore. If you cast invisibility on yourself you dissappear but you're still there.

You disappear from VIEW with Invisibility, but that's quite different than disappearing in actuality. Think of Teleport, or more accurately Teleport Object. Teleport Object takes an item and sends it elsewhere in space. The object will disappear from where it is, and reappear elsewhere. If that object was a chain binding you, or a keystone holding up a bridge, it's not there anymore.

Time Hop takes an item and sends it forward in time. It disappears from when it is, and reappears later. It is not there for the duration of the power. You seem to be suggesting that if you manifest Time Hop on a link of chain, the chain is...still there. And it's not. It's in the future.

[RPGaddict28]

It's also a Psychoportation power, not whatever the psionic illusion disciple is.

[Azoth]

It is also a great way to buy some time to recast buffs or heal up if fighting a brute monster with a low will save. Port him out of the time stream for a few rounds while you get ready to stomp him on his return.

[Invader]

I... huh? How could appear as meaning it turned the target invisible and with no movement, but you can still interact with it?

I never said I did interpret it that way I was just using dissappear in another context.

No where in the description do I see where it insinuates that an object ceases to exist though.

[claypigeons]

I never said I did interpret it that way I was just using dissappear in another context.

No where in the description do I see where it insinuates that an object ceases to exist though.

It still exists, just not in the present. It's like the end of the Langolears movie, when they end up a few minutes in the future and have to wait for the universe to catch up. It's like that, but with doors instead of airplanes.

[Tulya]

In the context of Psionics, Time Hop's effect can be considerably more useful than the Enchantment analogue, Hold Person. While Time Hop won't setup coup de graces for you, you won't have to worry about a creature removed by Time Hop continuing to manifest powers against you - which are purely mental actions. Furthermore, the only core manifester who uses Wisdom is both MAD and has a delayed manifesting progression.
It's also not mind-affecting - which can be sparse in psionic control powers - and you can use it in pseudo-Mass form early with any number of manifester level boosting options.

As to the ongoing argument:
If the space from which the subject departed is occupied upon his return to the time stream, he appears in the closest unoccupied space, still in his original orientation. Determine the closest space randomly if necessary.

Suggests pretty strongly that the removed creature or object is no longer occupying the space, such that other creatures and objects can occupy the location in its stead.

[Invader]

Don't get me wrong I can definitely see the fun and utility if it's ruled that way but honestly if it is its exceptionally strong for a 3rd lvl power.

[eggynack]

No where in the description do I see where it insinuates that an object ceases to exist though.
It does still exist. Just not, y'know, now. Moving something into the future presumably causes it to not in the not-future. There are obviously other ways to consider time travel, but there's not really an interpretation where it seems to disappear, but doesn't let you walk through where a door was.

Edit:
Don't get me wrong I can definitely see the fun and utility if it's ruled that way but honestly if it is its exceptionally strong for a 3rd lvl power.
Indeed. Hence its high awesomeness rating. I'm not entirely sure that there's another way to rule this thing.

[Invader]

In the context of Psionics, Time Hop's effect can be considerably more useful than the Enchantment analogue, Hold Person. While Time Hop won't setup coup de graces for you, you won't have to worry about a creature removed by Time Hop continuing to manifest powers against you - which are purely mental actions. Furthermore, the only core manifester who uses Wisdom is both MAD and has a delayed manifesting progression.


As to the ongoing argument:
If the space from which the subject departed is occupied upon his return to the time stream, he appears in the closest unoccupied space, still in his original orientation. Determine the closest space randomly if necessary.

Suggests pretty strongly that the removed creature or object is no longer occupying the space, such that other creatures and objects can occupy the location in its stead.

To be fair it says "his" and "he" which to me strongly suggests it only applies in regards to living subjects.

[Nihilarian]

The subject of the power hops forward in time 1 round for every manifester level you have. In effect, the subject seems to disappear in a shimmer of silver energy, then reappear after the duration of this power expires. The subject reappears in exactly the same orientation and condition as before. From the subject’s point of view, no time has passed at all.

In each round of the power’s duration, on what would have been the subject’s turn, it can attempt a DC 15 Wisdom check. Success allows the subject to return. The subject can act normally on its next turn after this power ends.

If the space from which the subject departed is occupied upon his return to the time stream, he appears in the closest unoccupied space, still in his original orientation. Determine the closest space randomly if necessary.It "hops forward into time". It can't act on it's turn. In fact, it isn't even aware that it had a "turn". Other creatures and objects can move into it's space like it isn't there (because it isn't). It seems pretty clear it's not an illusion.

[Nettlekid]

To be fair it says "his" and "he" which to me strongly suggests it only applies in regards to living subjects.

By that interpretation, it doesn't work on girls.

Okay, if you don't believe that using Time Hop on a door will remove the door and let you through, then what DO you think happens if you use Time Hop on a door? Because you can. It says so.

[Immabozo]

It's also a Psychoportation power, not whatever the psionic illusion disciple is.

Psions dont get illusions.


It is also a great way to buy some time to recast buffs or heal up if fighting a brute monster with a low will save. Port him out of the time stream for a few rounds while you get ready to stomp him on his return.

Its not a will save, it is a wisdom check. So bonuses from class level (+7 will saves from Psion, etc) does not apply. So it is considerably better than a DC 15 will save.

But I once used it to get our very combative paladin (undercover blackguard) out of prison. The guards were about to arrest him, I time hopped him, and the guards were confused and left. No jail time!!

Time hop is useful in combat, but for me, it sees infinitely more use out of combat.

In combat, it is a no-save loose 1 turn, potentially loose more, up to quite a lot. It is great in combat.

But out of combat, the item you manifest it on exists. It never stops to exist. Think like time is folded and the object continues to exist, it just takes a "shortcut" through time and we have to live through time so far to catch up to it. In that time, it is as if it doesn't exist, because at the moment, it appears not to. So that cursed item you cannot drop? It disappears, then move, a minute later, it reappears, right where it was. So DM, what happens now? It's no longer actually in my hands!

Or that rope bridge no longer seems to have one hand "rail" rope. It starts to fall appart, then the rope "reappears" (it actually never went anywhere, it went to the future) where it was. But in the normal time steam, things behave as they would without it.

I was prepared to use it to "run away" from an encounter, when were were probably gonna die. It was a funny plan B

EDIT:

Don't get me wrong I can definitely see the fun and utility if it's ruled that way but honestly if it is its exceptionally strong for a 3rd lvl power.

Welcome to psionics

[Invader]

By that interpretation, it doesn't work on girls.

Okay, if you don't believe that using Time Hop on a door will remove the door and let you through, then what DO you think happens if you use Time Hop on a door? Because you can. It says so.



I'm not dead set on it not behaving that way I'm simply posing the question for debate. To me personally I can see how it could be taken either way and I was just trying to get some imput.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You don't necessarily use it on the charging Barbarian, when you can instead use it on his greataxe so he'll be useless for several rounds while your party pummels him. Plus the greataxe will reappear at the spot it was when you manifest the power, so it clatters to the floor and he has to spend an action to pick it up even. It's a Will save vs disarm that ignores lock gauntlets and guarantees they can't recover their weapon within a certain amount of time.

[Nettlekid]

1. Not really.

2. I'm not dead set on it not behaving that way I'm simply posing the question for debate. To me personally I can see how it could be taken either way and I was just trying to get some imput.

(I meant because you were pointing out "he" and "him" as the sticking point.)

I don't understand what the other way is. You say it can be taken either way, but the only way I can see it being taken is "Touch the thing, it poofs away, poofs back where it was in a few rounds." Other things aren't poofed away, so while the thing is gone, they react like it's not there. Because it isn't. What's the other interpretation?

[Invader]

(I meant because you were pointing out "he" and "him" as the sticking point.)

I don't understand what the other way is. You say it can be taken either way, but the only way I can see it being taken is "Touch the thing, it poofs away, poofs back where it was in a few rounds." Other things aren't poofed away, so while the thing is gone, they react like it's not there. Because it isn't. What's the other interpretation?

Idk, maybe I'm just hung up on the lack of specifics of how it works on objects and the fact it's so powerful.

[Nihilarian]

There's no need to debate. The power is clear. Your interpretation ("seems" = illusion) requires you to ignore the context in which the word appears.

[Invader]

Although when I think about in the context of casting it on a held weapon it makes more sense to behaving how it's worded as opposed to a door so I guess I concede :smallsmile:

[Nihilarian]

Idk, maybe I'm just hung up on the lack of specifics of how it works on objects and the fact it's so powerful.
Target: One Medium or smaller creature, or one object weighing 300 lb. or lessIt affects objects of up to 300 lb.

[Immabozo]

You don't necessarily use it on the charging Barbarian, when you can instead use it on his greataxe so he'll be useless for several rounds while your party pummels him. Plus the greataxe will reappear at the spot it was when you manifest the power, so it clatters to the floor and he has to spend an action to pick it up even. It's a Will save vs disarm that ignores lock gauntlets and guarantees they can't recover their weapon within a certain amount of time.

it is NOT a will save, it is considerably better. it is a WIS check.


There's no need to debate. The power is clear. Your interpretation ("seems" = illusion) requires you to ignore the context in which the word appears.

There is also the problem that, short of StP Erudite, Psionics do not have and illusions.

[cha0s4a11]

I'm not dead set on it not behaving that way I'm simply posing the question for debate. To me personally I can see how it could be taken either way and I was just trying to get some imput.



Time Hop
Psychoportation
Level: Psion/wilder 3
Display: Auditory and visual
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One Medium or smaller creature, or one object weighing 300 lb. or less
Duration: 1 round/level; see text
.....

The subject of the power hops forward in time 1 round for every manifester level you have. In effect, the subject seems to disappear in a shimmer of silver energy, then reappear after the duration of this power expires. The subject reappears in exactly the same orientation and condition as before. From the subject’s point of view, no time has passed at all.
......



Assuming, for the sake of argument, that an object that is targeted by this power still continues to exist and is still potentially able to affect things while this is going on (door would still block the way, chains would still bind someone attached to them, etc), then I am honestly quite curious as to what the bolded sentences mean.

What does it mean to move forward in time a specific amount if you are just mimicing the same forward movement that everything else is doing in that period of time? Does this power make doors unconscious and/or give the door specific short term amnesia?

[Invader]

There's no need to debate. The power is clear. Your interpretation ("seems" = illusion) requires you to ignore the context in which the word appears.

I never claimed it was simply an illusion please stop implying I did.

[Phelix-Mu]

Idk, maybe I'm just hung up on the lack of specifics of how it works on objects and the fact it's so powerful.

The game does this to most people at one point or another. I know that I am regularly flabbergasted at one bit of mechanics or another that I hadn't seen before or failed to understand the implications of or didn't see the possible exploits, etc. 3e is big and huge and all that. Can't really be surprised when some of it is pretty crazy good/bad/poorly written.

[Nihilarian]

I never claimed it was simply an illusion please stop implying I did.You certainly implied it.
And dissappear doesn't necessarily mean doesn't exist anymore. If you cast invisibility on yourself you dissappear but you're still there.

[Invader]

The game does this to most people at one point or another. I know that I am regularly flabbergasted at one bit of mechanics or another that I hadn't seen before or failed to understand the implications of or didn't see the possible exploits, etc. 3e is big and huge and all that. Can't really be surprised when some of it is pretty crazy good/bad/poorly written.

Thank you for understanding and not simply piling on :smallsmile:

[eggynack]

I never claimed it was simply an illusion please stop implying I did.
It's just really hard to tell what you're saying if you're not saying that. Unless you're agreeing that it works the way we folk claim, in which case, huzzah. It all seems rather clear cut.

[Invader]

You certainly implied it.

I also said this in regards to that

I never said I did interpret it that way I was just using dissappear in another context.

[Necroticplague]

I never claimed it was simply an illusion please stop implying I did.
Yes, but this little piece:

When I read the description though it says the item "seems to dissappear" which seems to me that it'd still be there.

Which would imply an illusion, because your setting up the concept it only seems to disappear while still being their, much like invisibility.

[Invader]

It's just really hard to tell what you're saying if you're not saying that. Unless you're agreeing that it works the way we folk claim, in which case, huzzah. It all seems rather clear cut.


Although when I think about in the context of casting it on a held weapon it makes more sense to behaving how it's worded as opposed to a door so I guess I concede :smallbiggrin:

[Invader]

Yes, but this little piece:


Which would imply an illusion, because your setting up the concept it only seems to disappear while still being their, much like invisibility.

Then I apologize because insinuating it was simply an illusion wasn't my intent I was just looking for a better explanation of what was going on than what was provided by the description.

[eggynack]

:smallbiggrin:
Huzzah then. Huzzah indeed.

[Phelix-Mu]

Really, they should have left all things vaguely chronomantic out of the game. They are an endless series of headaches, difficult to describe, harder to picture, and generally a big mess. They should have stuck with haste and the acceleration of time frames a la time stop instead of anything that outright ports something through time.

I have learned the hard way that, as cool as time travel is in fiction, it just mucks up mechanics and logic so badly that it's hardly worth the effort.

[Immabozo]

Yes, but this little piece:


Which would imply an illusion, because your setting up the concept it only seems to disappear while still being their, much like invisibility.

Guys, we are all human. I get it that he may have painted the picture one way while intending it another. Lets not beat him up over it. No one's perfect. Chalk it up to a miscommunication and lets move on.

I suggest picturing a piece of paper as the time stream. If you fold it and pierce it with a pencil, the target can take that "bridge". It exists the whole time, but the rest of the universe must continue along as normal and since the item is not there at the moment, everything else reacts to its absence normally.

[Phelix-Mu]

I suggest picturing a piece of paper as the time stream. If you fold it and pierce it with a pencil, the target can take that "bridge". It exists the whole time, but the rest of the universe must continue along as normal and since the item is not there at the moment, everything else reacts to its absence normally.

This is a great illustration. However, when it takes this kind of abstract thinking just to begin to understand the basic application of a mechanic, then I feel it's straying into some territory that is too complex. Not to mention the game more or less ignores how various time manipulating things interact or fail to interact.

Yeah, I love time travel, and have watched Doctor Who religiously for several decades. But I have yet to involve anything complicated in this area in a game and have it be anything less than a catastrophe/headache. Time hop is probably the simplest application, but I am inclined to toss it into my box of infinite loop/time travel abuse bans.

[Gavinfoxx]

You know that scene in Back to the Future where the car disappeared for a while because it time traveled 5 minutes into the future?

Like that.

[Eldest]

it is NOT a will save, it is considerably better. it is a WIS check.

It is very much a will save. Read the power. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timeHop.htm) See the "will negates"? That means there's a will save.

[Hytheter]

Really, they should have left all things vaguely chronomantic out of the game. They are an endless series of headaches, difficult to describe, harder to picture, and generally a big mess. They should have stuck with haste and the acceleration of time frames a la time stop instead of anything that outright ports something through time.

I have learned the hard way that, as cool as time travel is in fiction, it just mucks up mechanics and logic so badly that it's hardly worth the effort.

I don't know, I think forward time travel is fairly straightforward. The subect disappears from the current time, then reappears at the specified time in the same location.

It's when you want to go backwards in time that things get messy.

[Immabozo]

This is a great illustration. However, when it takes this kind of abstract thinking just to begin to understand the basic application of a mechanic, then I feel it's straying into some territory that is too complex. Not to mention the game more or less ignores how various time manipulating things interact or fail to interact.

Yeah, I love time travel, and have watched Doctor Who religiously for several decades. But I have yet to involve anything complicated in this area in a game and have it be anything less than a catastrophe/headache. Time hop is probably the simplest application, but I am inclined to toss it into my box of infinite loop/time travel abuse bans.

Thank you, thank you.

Now I was never defending the mechanic. It is complicated, no doubt. Personally though, I like it. But if it's hard to run it at your table for whatever reason, there is a simple solution. The DM Ban hammer fixes a lot.

I personally love time travel and have come up with my own take on it that is very unique, I've never seen the theories, application or uses like I have been working on for stories. I love the idea!


It is very much a will save. Read the power. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timeHop.htm) See the "will negates"? That means there's a will save.

So it does. Well, the wis check from round to round is what I meant, at least.

[Phelix-Mu]

My problem is generally the slippery slope from time hop (simple and practical) to linked temporal something or other infinite loop for time travel (see the theoretical build The Terminator) to teleport through time. The latter two are already right out the window, as large-scale time travel should be a plot tool, not something the players are left to turn to their own devices (as time travel, in principle, will win any campaign without villains using the same...and dueling time travelers is just beyond what my players are capable of). I'm just wondering how small scale I should be worried about. Psionics is rather known for it's action-economy implosion tricks, and, while I am okay with limited tricks, I am eager to avoid the kind of linked synchronicity Font of Power-type tricks I once pulled off myself at high-level (with virtually campaign-shattering consequences).

A universe-hopping campaign I was in dropped our epic party in the midst of a kind of time war type thing that was a mess of causality and "fate," with the DM generally giving us just enough theoretical rope to tie ourselves into knots trying to figure out which was the best course of action, how to prevent potential futures, what kind of time travel our opponent was already taking into account and which was not, and so forth. I just remember several hazy, stressful sessions where we more or less just tried to hash out our options. Seriously headache inducing.

[Immabozo]

My problem is generally the slippery slope from time hop (simple and practical) to linked temporal something or other infinite loop for time travel (see the theoretical build The Terminator) to teleport through time. The latter two are already right out the window, as large-scale time travel should be a plot tool, not something the players are left to turn to their own devices (as time travel, in principle, will win any campaign without villains using the same...and dueling time travelers is just beyond what my players are capable of). I'm just wondering how small scale I should be worried about. Psionics is rather known for it's action-economy implosion tricks, and, while I am okay with limited tricks, I am eager to avoid the kind of linked synchronicity Font of Power-type tricks I once pulled off myself at high-level (with virtually campaign-shattering consequences).

A universe-hopping campaign I was in dropped our epic party in the midst of a kind of time war type thing that was a mess of causality and "fate," with the DM generally giving us just enough theoretical rope to tie ourselves into knots trying to figure out which was the best course of action, how to prevent potential futures, what kind of time travel our opponent was already taking into account and which was not, and so forth. I just remember several hazy, stressful sessions where we more or less just tried to hash out our options. Seriously headache inducing.

I have an interesting theory that ties real-world experiences into time travel.

The theory is that we have all lived through time once - that cannot be changed. But if you change time, we live through it again. You know how sometimes you could swear your cell phone was ringing, but it wasn't? Ever had it where you could swear that there was someone just right over there, but there's not? Ever had it where you thought you heard something, but didn't?

It's because the first time, you did, or there was, that thing, but that is something that changed. You have memories of how the time went the first time, but since everything is MOSTLY the same, you dont really notice too much that something weird is going on.

But I agree, time travel is a very complicated thing and not really the greatest D&D plot, even worse as a nasty wrench the players can throw in their DM's gears

[chronomatophobe]

Stahp. Stahp reading 3.0 Psionics.
3.5 Time Hop (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timeHop.htm)

[Lord Vukodlak]

Oh lord, my group never realized we could use time hop on objects.... I'll have to tell the group's psion this.... after my campaign is over.

[Phelix-Mu]

I have an interesting theory that ties real-world experiences into time travel.

The theory is that we have all lived through time once - that cannot be changed. But if you change time, we live through it again. You know how sometimes you could swear your cell phone was ringing, but it wasn't? Ever had it where you could swear that there was someone just right over there, but there's not? Ever had it where you thought you heard something, but didn't?

It's because the first time, you did, or there was, that thing, but that is something that changed. You have memories of how the time went the first time, but since everything is MOSTLY the same, you dont really notice too much that something weird is going on.

Actually, as an avid irl lucid dreamer, this is one of the most frequent and enduring sensations from dreaming. I have done more personal dreaming than the next ten humans, and the overall sense that I've gotten is one of a dream that is familiar, a repetition, harkening back to a previous dream. While I dream, I feel like I am experiencing a familiar dream, one I've dreamed before. But, have I dreamed it before, or is it simply the impression of a familiar memory. Since I can change and rewrite my actions in my dreams, it all gets pretty complicated, with re-experiencing recent dream events, but taking different actions, trying to change outcomes, and so forth.

All in all, a fascinating theory. I think we could also tie this to Jung and Campbell and their work on psychological and mythical archetypes and how they draw on basic shared emotional states that we all experience at some point in life, stories that exist across times and cultures.

Is it time travel, or is it our experience of the universal truth of the cell phone that is ringing, but is not? Personally, I believe that it is simply our dreaming self reaching out and tapping our waking self on the shoulder, ever so trollishly.:smallsmile:

[Immabozo]

Actually, as an avid irl lucid dreamer, this is one of the most frequent and enduring sensations from dreaming. I have done more personal dreaming than the next ten humans, and the overall sense that I've gotten is one of a dream that is familiar, a repetition, harkening back to a previous dream. While I dream, I feel like I am experiencing a familiar dream, one I've dreamed before. But, have I dreamed it before, or is it simply the impression of a familiar memory. Since I can change and rewrite my actions in my dreams, it all gets pretty complicated, with re-experiencing recent dream events, but taking different actions, trying to change outcomes, and so forth.

All in all, a fascinating theory. I think we could also tie this to Jung and Campbell and their work on psychological and mythical archetypes and how they draw on basic shared emotional states that we all experience at some point in life, stories that exist across times and cultures.

Is it time travel, or is it our experience of the universal truth of the cell phone that is ringing, but is not? Personally, I believe that it is simply our dreaming self reaching out and tapping our waking self on the shoulder, ever so trollishly.:smallsmile:

Phelix, is it a bad sign that your extremely complicated and confusing post made perfect sense to me?

[Phelix-Mu]

Aw, and I didn't even get to all the cool Matrix-type impressions that I also got from your post. Self-editing reality run by malicious robots in an attempt to keep the humans tame? Mmm. I like that vibe.

Personally, I think that one of the signs of getting older is an increasing sense of deja vu. The brain is wired to pick up on subtle hints that can link the present to past experiences that might be helpful; while this mechanism is originally intended to improve chances of survival over time, in humans, the capacity is both dramatically more sophisticated (while still operating at a very instinctive level), while also very underutilized in our modern, fairly safe existence. Inherited vigilance and sensory awareness operates at a semi-conscious level, and so we might not realize all the post-it notes it's putting up on the world around us. But, eventually, that phone rings, and, just for a moment, we see that part of the world that our brain is always watching, but never lets us in on (mostly to preserve our sanity).

Anyway, this is all terribly off-topic.

[Immabozo]

I think it highlights the topic. Time travel can be extremely confusing and best to be avoided

[Phelix-Mu]

Mmm. Maybe it is time for me to start that thread on dreaming and memory in the general forum.

Alas, the forum shuts down at such an auspicious time. Clearly a sign from my subconscious that the post-it notes are starting to clutter things up.

[TuggyNE]

The game does this to most people at one point or another. I know that I am regularly flabbergasted at one bit of mechanics or another that I hadn't seen before or failed to understand the implications of or didn't see the possible exploits, etc. 3e is big and huge and all that. Can't really be surprised when some of it is pretty crazy good/bad/poorly written.

Yeah, my most recent experience with this feeling was Core's Archmage, which doesn't increase CL. Before that, I always figured it was a decent but not overpowered PrC; now, I'm not sure it's ever worth it.

[Immabozo]

Yeah, my most recent experience with this feeling was Core's Archmage, which doesn't increase CL. Before that, I always figured it was a decent but not overpowered PrC; now, I'm not sure it's ever worth it.

like Megamind in XPB, looks like it's good in theory. But out of 10 levels, it looses 5 ML. Great gestalt cannon fodder though

[Magikeeper]

I once had a low-level NPC villain use time hop whenever a PC had him cornered/caught. Each time the PC would assume he had teleported away and leave the area before the five rounds were up (at least once to rush off to where the villain had surely teleported to).

I somehow managed to keep a straight face each time. :smallbiggrin:

[ben-zayb]

The thing with time hop is that it's rare to find monsters at low level (it's a L3 spell after all) that have better Will Saves than Fortitude or Reflex Saves. It's not mind affecting either, so the last time I used it, I managed to BR around 3 zombies out of a few.