[PF] Kingmaker... very little talk about using magic in kingdom-building?

[Gavinfoxx]

I have been trying to find references that the people who wrote Kingmaker gave ANY sort of thought on the use of magic for the strategy part of the game...

and all I have been able to find was this:

"At the GM’s whim, using construction magic (such as a lyre of building or spells like fabricate or wall of stone) can reduce the cost of a building’s BP by 2 (minimum of 0 BP). This is a one-time reduction, regardless of the amount of magic used."

That seems... lacking. Distinctly lacking. Has anyone figured out any plausible BETTER RULES (homebrew welcome!) of what might happen if you really unleash magic in the kingdom-making part of these adventure paths? Is there something else I am missing?

[icefractal]

Yeah, it's a pretty half-assed handwave. I guess they were worried about magic breaking things, but - meh, it already does that.

To do it right, you'd need to separate out how much of the time and cost is from what factor:
* Materials
* Labor
* Other (initial inventory cost for a shop, for instance).

And then spells would replace some amount of one or more factors, depending on the spell. Maybe depending on the building too - you can make a watchtower entirely out of stone, but probably not an inn. You could likely use a standard set of proportions, with exceptions for certain buildings.

[Skysaber]

I'm running kingmaker, found that rule and was disgusted by it, so cracked open the potential of magic for use in building. My players love it.

Basically, if you've got enough magic of the appropriate sort, it can do what building on ruins does and pays for half of the cost of any building project.

Like I said, my players just love it. If they can make me believe that X uses of Y spell will manufacture enough of a building, they get it half off.

First time I've seen a group get positively excited over Stone Shape and Wood shape. They've gone hog wild searching up utility magic most groups never care about, and taking that in preference to combat spells.

[BWR]

That's a good idea. I may have to incorporate that, since I have two players with domains now. And it fits very well with older domain building like I'm trying to run.

[Gavinfoxx]

So this talks about a 'black market' strategy or something...

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Zg-PwRV4plxRPawYTvR4duuxOR_Jl2eUzaoSzxi0ZfI/edit?hl=en_GB#

Could those black market things be refluffed as some sort of magic-generating whatsits? You know, your basic city core with a few tippyverse traps or something?

[icefractal]

So this talks about a 'black market' strategy or something...

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Zg-PwRV4plxRPawYTvR4duuxOR_Jl2eUzaoSzxi0ZfI/edit?hl=en_GB#

Could those black market things be refluffed as some sort of magic-generating whatsits? You know, your basic city core with a few tippyverse traps or something?That's using the version of the rules from Kingmaker. In the newer (Ultimate Campaign) version, you can no longer have shops sell their magic items for BP, which turns Black Markets et all from the cornerstone of your strategy to overpriced and mostly useless.

The new best building (for the early-mid game) is the Mint, IIRC, and there's no limit on number. So odd as it seems, filling your cities with just Mints and more Mints is an effective strategy. Terrain improvements are also much more important, and there are more of them.

[Gavinfoxx]

That's using the version of the rules from Kingmaker. In the newer (Ultimate Campaign) version, you can no longer have shops sell their magic items for BP, which turns Black Markets et all from the cornerstone of your strategy to overpriced and mostly useless.

The new best building (for the early-mid game) is the Mint, IIRC, and there's no limit on number. So odd as it seems, filling your cities with just Mints and more Mints is an effective strategy. Terrain improvements are also much more important, and there are more of them.

Hmmm. Interesting. So this set of rules, then?

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/kingdom-building

Do you have a link to a more updated strategy, then?

[Kudaku]

First of all I'd strongly suggest using the kingdom rules from Ultimate Campaign instead of the rules set from Kingmaker. The Ucamp kingdom rules set, which can be found for free on PFSRD, were written based on feedback and years of experience with the Kingmaker rules set. It's basically "Kingmaker 2.0". It fixes quite a few issues with the original and closes one massive loophole that could wreck your kingdom economy. You could also consider Ultimate Rulership which further expands upon those rules, though that's published as 3rd party material.

Secondly, when Ultimate Campaign came out I asked one of the designers why they didn't add more magical options for building/room construction and the answer was basically "we didn't want to create another area where casters rule and martials drool" - They didn't overlook the potential of magic, instead they deliberately omitted adding magical construction because it would increase the gap between casters and non-casters. Personally I think that's pretty awesome, but you are of course free to houserule or add to that rules system.

The statement is part of a larger post that can be found here (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ptcn?Ultimate-Campaign-buildings-construction-time#11).

There is some calculations on using the Lyre of Building here (http://paizo.com/products/btpy8x64/discuss&page=13?Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Ultimate-Campaign#641).

Finally, cookie cutter settlement/kingdoms such as a settlement with only mints should be careful. There's a note in Ultimate Campaign about how settlements that get too enthusiastic about a particular structure:


If you get overzealous in constructing a particular type of building in a settlement, the GM should feel free to add events to discourage this practice. For example, a settlement with too many Dumps is prone to otyugh and wererat attacks, and a settlement with too many Graveyards tends to have frequent undead attacks. This should not occur, however, if you build too many Houses, Parks, Tenements, or Waterways.

[Coidzor]

Finally, cookie cutter settlement/kingdoms such as a settlement with only mints should be careful. There's a note in Ultimate Campaign about how settlements that get too enthusiastic about a particular structure:

Which doesn't even make sense. The more graveyards you have, the more distributed the bodies are, making each one that much less valuable and worthwhile for the time investment. It's not like you have more people dying in order to make up for the fact you have more graveyards built. Or make more trash for the sole purpose of filling up dumps....

[Kudaku]

Which doesn't even make sense. The more graveyards you have,t he more distributed the bodies are, making each one that much less valuable and worthwhile for the time investment. It's not like you have more people dying in order to make up for the fact you have more graveyards built. Or make more trash for the sole purpose of filling up dumps....

I just took it to mean that a city with a huge amount of cemeteries would attract a lot of unsavory attention (necromancers etc), whereas cities with fewer cemeteries would cremate or dispose of their deceased some other way.
And I think it makes more sense that the country that's obsessed with cemeteries and garbage pits has otyugh and undead problems than a country with an excellent economy whose only industry is minting...

That said, personally I'd just implement diminishing returns tied to population - while a large kingdom might well need multiple mints, it really doesn't make sense to me that a single-hex settlement can find the demand to keep 40 mints in business.

[Coidzor]

I just took it to mean that a city with a huge amount of cemeteries would attract a lot of unsavory attention (necromancers etc), whereas cities with fewer cemeteries would cremate or dispose of their deceased some other way.
And I think it makes more sense that the country that's obsessed with cemeteries and garbage pits has otyugh and undead problems than a country with an excellent economy whose only industry is minting...

That said, personally I'd just implement diminishing returns tied to population - while a large kingdom might well need multiple mints, it really doesn't make sense to me that a single-hex settlement can find the demand to keep 40 mints in business.

No, see, what would make sense would be labor difficulties and unrest as a result of that, counteracting the benefits of the structures, but apparently that would have required too much thought on their part.

...So you disagreed with me and then you went and agreed with me. :smalltongue: Make up your mind!

[Kudaku]

...So you disagreed with me and then you went and agreed with me. :smalltongue: Make up your mind!

Not quite. I disagreed with you since I find that their examples make sense. If you visit a typical fantasy city that's a giant graveyard, odds are they're either going to have constant undead problems or a fairly major anti-undead security presence. If your city has an undead problem because you have too many graveyards, I'd consider building a cathedral dedicated to Pharasma - a bit like the Necropolis of the Faithful.

However, I personally would handle players min/maxing buildings a bit differently, since I have different priorities than Pathfinder.
Paizo wants and needs to create a rules set that appeals to their customer base, while I can focus on a rules set that appeals to me and my ~12 players. Since we generally tend to be a bit more rules-savvy than the typical Pathfinder player, we can also make those rules a bit more complicated. For instance we limit construction of buildings based on the region, resources available, total population and a host of other factors. We also use Ultimate Rulership and some additional houserules on how tile improvements interact.

Ultimately though, what works for my group might not work for the majority of Paizo's player base, so the fix that's perfect for my game might not necessarily be the perfect fix for Paizo. The fact that Paizo and my group handles this differently doesn't mean either one of us is in the wrong.

[Coidzor]

Not quite. I disagreed with you since I find that their examples make sense. If you visit a typical fantasy city that's a giant graveyard, odds are they're either going to have constant undead problems or a fairly major anti-undead security presence. If your city has an undead problem because you have too many graveyards, I'd consider building a cathedral dedicated to Pharasma - a bit like the Necropolis of the Faithful.

... And where are all the bodies coming from? Are you importing other people's dead now? It makes much more sense for the living to object to not having enough room to live and be because of all of the empty graveyards than for empty graveyards to suddenly get full of bodies and infested by undead. Why on earth do you think otherwise? :smallconfused: Do you think that building a graveyard magically fills it with bodies that come out of nowhere? Or in your settings does just having an area designated as grave space cause it to have necromantic properties that spontaneously generate undead without even any people having been interred there?



However, I personally would handle players min/maxing buildings a bit differently, since I have different priorities than Pathfinder.
Paizo wants and needs to create a rules set that appeals to their customer base, while I can focus on a rules set that appeals to me and my ~12 players. Since we generally tend to be a bit more rules-savvy than the typical Pathfinder player, we can also make those rules a bit more complicated. For instance we limit construction of buildings based on the region, resources available, total population and a host of other factors. We also use Ultimate Rulership and some additional houserules on how tile improvements interact.

And yet you think that such limitations are not good general rules for some reason and that the incredibly dumbed down spontaneously generated undead make more sense. :smallconfused: I don't even, sir.

[Kudaku]

@Coidzor

I really don't see any point in further sidetracking this thread with whatever issues you have with Pathfinder. If you really want to discuss this, feel free to send me a PM.

[icefractal]

Secondly, when Ultimate Campaign came out I asked one of the designers why they didn't add more magical options for building/room construction and the answer was basically "we didn't want to create another area where casters rule and martials drool" - They didn't overlook the potential of magic, instead they deliberately omitted adding magical construction because it would increase the gap between casters and non-casters. Personally I think that's pretty awesome, but you are of course free to houserule or add to that rules system.I get the intent there, I just think they went the wrong way with it - how they have it now, everyone drools. By which I mean that very little distinguishes a 20th level ruler from a 1st level one with a big pile of money.

Instead, this would have been a good place to bust out some strategic-scale abilities for non-casters. Take a page from Exalted with Tiger Warrior Training (turn ordinary soldiers into ultra-badass ones through training/leadership). Give abilities like taking over the criminal side of your empire and making it work for you instead of against you. Use your renown to give your nation more diplomatic heft. That kind of thing. Instead - nothing; your abilities basically don't matter.

At least personally, being able to do more than personal-scale combat is the thing I actually give a **** about when leveling up. Now I can deal 20d6 instead of 10d6? Meh. Sometimes, in a real sandboxy game, that might matter, but often we just end up fighting enemies near our own level anyway. But "now I can conjure up a ****ing castle if I need to?" That's awesome. That's something worth reaching a higher level for. So rules that say "just ignore that stuff, it's hard to balance" are ... less than satisfying for me, to say the least.

[Kudaku]

I get the intent there, I just think they went the wrong way with it - how they have it now, everyone drools. By which I mean that very little distinguishes a 20th level ruler from a 1st level one with a big pile of money.

At least personally, being able to do more than personal-scale combat is the thing I actually give a **** about when leveling up. Now I can deal 20d6 instead of 10d6? Meh. Sometimes, in a real sandboxy game, that might matter, but often we just end up fighting enemies near our own level anyway. But "now I can conjure up a ****ing castle if I need to?" That's awesome. That's something worth reaching a higher level for. So rules that say "just ignore that stuff, it's hard to balance" are ... less than satisfying for me, to say the least.

There is the Teleport Structure spell for "conjuring up a ****ing castle", though unfortunately the range isn't all that great. You could craft your own instant fortress (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/h-l/instant-fortress) and furnish it with the room rules?

That said, I really wish they'd add more awesome stuff for martials. I still can't get over the crane wing change >__<.

[Gavinfoxx]

As it's been a long time since Pathfinder has been doing this... has anyone come up with some better set of rules that allows for the badassness of magic in pathfinder and 3.5e for kingdom-building to interact with this ruleset?

[icefractal]

So I was planning to do that. But well ... here was my thoughts on it, over time:

1) I should totally revamp the kingdom rules to properly include magic and other character abilities.

2) While I'm at it, I may as well fix some other things too. Let's take a deeper look at these rules.

3) Wait a minute - these rules are sort of crap! They have a lot of nice moving parts, and look like they're working when you see them on a zoomed-in scale, but in the big picture they don't even make sense.* You track each building, but it's not even clear who owns what. Does the government own every business? Or every plot of land? Or nothing? That would be important to know if you want to integrate the downtime rules in.
* There's so much modifiers to track you need a spreadsheet (literally, that's what we used). And yet, it doesn't even account for different government types or policies. The difference between brutal dictatorship and a utopian commune is a small modifier on some checks, less than the modifier for having a couple extra buildings.
* There's a lot of building types, but not reason to build one over another for most of them, and no reason to not just build large numbers of the most efficient ones.
4) Ok, I'll make my own kingdom rules! Or maybe convert the ones from some other game.

5) Making kingdom rules is hard, other game's rules are difficult to port due to major setting differences, and there's no guarantee those would be good either. For instance, Make You Kingdom - amusing game, I like the style, but the kingdom building rules are sadly not very good.

6) Hey look over there, procrastination!

[Yerltvachovicic]

Houserules in my Kingmaker campaign, compiled from few different Paizo forum threads (I use Ultimate Campaign rules):


The effect of magic items on cities:

Teleportation Circle and Permanency: If you link two cities with two permanent Teleportation Circles, the kingdom’s Economy increases by 8 and its Stability increases by 4, as goods and people can be exchanged between the cities without lengthy transport by road. Two cities can only benefit from one pair of Teleportation Circles, but one city can be linked with many different cities. Additionally, the Teleportation Circles can be used to move armies quickly around in the kingdom.

Wall of Fire and Permanency: A City Wall can be enforced with permanent Walls of Fire placed in front of it. A City Wall is 750 ft. long. The Defense Modifier of City Walls enforced by Walls of Fire increases by 4.

Wall of Force and Permanency: In theory, a City Wall can be enforced with permanent Walls of Force, although this is incredibly expensive. A City Wall is 750 ft. Long; a 20-ft. high wall has 150 10-ft. squares, a 30- ft. wall has 225 10-ft. squares, and a 40-ft. wall has 300 10-ft. squares. The Defense Modifier of City Walls enforced by Walls of Force increases by 8.

Crystal Ball: A Crystal Ball placed in a city allows its officials to quickly gain information on the progress of patrols or even to spy on known criminals. The kingdom’s stability increases by 2. A city can profit from only one Crystal Ball.

Crystal Ball with Telepathy: With this Crystal Ball, city officials can also easily communicate with patrols and officials in other cities. The kingdom’s stability increases by 4. A city can profit from only one Crystal Ball.

Ring Gates: If you link two cities with Ring Gates, these cities can instantly exchange information in an easy way and exchange small amounts of goods, for example potions. The kingdom’s stability increases by 2. Two cities can only benefit from one pair of Ring Gates.

Vorpal weapon: If the kingdom has a Royal Assassin who adds his Strength modifier to Loyalty and who is known to carry a Vorpal weapon, the fear inspired by the Royal Assassin reduces Unrest by 2 during each Upkeep phase.

Ring of Three Wishes: A wish can do any of the following:
1) Give an automatic success on a Loyalty, Economy or Stability check .
2) Instantly at no cost take a kingdom action such as preparing a site for a city, creating farmlands, claiming a hex etc.
3) Pay the kingdom's consumption for 1 month
4) Cancel a kingdom event from the event phase
5) Negate the vacancy penalty from an empty leadership role for 1 month.


Winter economy sucks. Divide your Econ result by 10 (instead of 3) to determine BP earned

Winter events are hard. If you get a "good" result on the table, I reroll it once. The second result stays.


EDICTS:
Martial Law: While Martial Law is in effect, your kingdom's Unrest is reduced by 1 each month. However, while Martial Law is in effect, your kingdom cannot settle new hexes nor build new Hex or Town Improvements. Moreover, while Martial Law is in effect, and for an equal period thereafter, your kingdom's Loyalty modifier is reduced by 4.

Changing Kingdom Alignment: Kingdom Alignment, once set, cannot be changed without a significant increase in Unrest. Changing the Alignment prevents any sort of BP gain (from Income, items, etc.) for one month. Additionally, if the kingdom's alignment is changing more than one step, the kingdom gains 3d4 Unrest. If the kingdom's alignment is only changing one step, the kingdom only gains 2d4 Unrest. Either of these can be reduced by 1d4 Unrest (to 2d4 for 2+ steps or 1d4 for 1) with a successful Loyalty check. The kingdom's alignment may only be changed once per year at most. Cities must immediately adjust to comply with the new alignments. Temples and Cathedrals within cities that no longer allow them are considered destroyed. New Temples or Cathedrals dedicated to gods the city allows may be built in their place for the usual half price cost.


Hiring Adventurers: By hiring adventurers, the PCs can effectively purchase one time bonuses to any Economy, Loyalty, or Stability checks made as a result of a kingdom event. A group of low-level adventurers (level 1–2) grants a +2 bonus on the check but costs 4 BP. A group of mid-level adventurers (level 3–5) grants a +5 bonus on the check but costs 8 BP. A group of high-level adventurers (level 6 or higher, but never higher than the PCs’ Average Party Level) grants a +10 bonus on the check but costs 16 BP.


Non-city improvements:
Presented below are additional buildings and improvements that can be build outside of cities. Please note that constructing any of these improvements takes the place of the "build a farm" action in your kingdom turn.

Please also note that Camps, Farms and Mines are mutually exclusive - you can have a farm OR a mine OR a camp in a hex. None of these improvements represent a single building in a 12-mile hex. It's not just one farm, or just one mine, or just one camp. Building means you have devoted the primary physical and human resources of that hex to the activity of farming (farm), mining (mine) or logging (camp).

Allied Tribe (4 BP): An allied tribe hex provides the country with an internal trade partner and defensive force. Economy +2; Stability +1; Defense Modifier +2. An allied tribe hex does not cost any consumption per turn. An allied tribe hex can only be established in a hex containing a tribe of humanoid creatures with which the PCs are on friendly terms.


CITY ALIGNMENT:
Cities within the kingdom do not need to be of the same alignment. At least half of the cities in the kingdom, including the Capital, need to match the kingdom's alignment. Any others may be within one step of the kingdom's alignment.


HOME CITIES:
Any PC may designate a single city as their home city. This is where they must spend their week each month handling leadership duties. Within the home city, a PC gains the benefit of a certain lifestyle for free (see Cost of Living in the Core Rulebook). For kingdoms of size 1-20, the PC gets the Average lifestyle. For kingdoms of size 21-80, the PC gets the Wealthy lifestyle. For kingdoms of size 81+, the PC gets the Extravagant lifestyle. PCs outside of their home city but in a city still within the kingdom continue to get a free lifestyle, but at one less step compared to what they get in their home city (Poor for 1-20, Average for 21-80, Wealthy for 81+).

NUMBER OF CITIES/DISTRICTS:
The number of cities a kingdom can support is based off its size. A kingdom may have one city for every 5 size (min. 1). A kingdom of size 9 or less may only support one city. A kingdom of size 10-14 may have two cities. A kingdom of size 15-19 may have three cities, and so on.

A city may only build additional districts if the structure desired to be built within it does not fit in the current district. Future structures which do fit (even if a second district is more open) must still be built within the first.

Example: The city Caerleon has one district that is nearly full, only three squares remaining in a corner. The players wish to build a Cathedral. A new district may be added to Caerleon to support this. If, on the following turn, a Shop is to be built, it must be built in the first district as there is still room.


VILLAGES:
A Village overall functions like a city with the following exceptions:
Location: A village can be created in a hex that already contains a camp, farm or fishery. A village can only contain one district, and a village district consists of a one 2x2 grid.
Costs: Cost for preparing a village district site and time for preparation are reduced, to reflect the more limited size of the village.

Preparing a Village District Site:
Terrain: Cost: Time to Prepare:
Forest 1BP 1 month
Grassland 1BP Immediate*
Hills 1BP 1 month
Mountains 3BP 1 month
Swamp 2BP 1 month

Consumption: Village districts don’t add to consumption.
Buildings: Only the following buildings can be build in a village: Brewery, Brothel/Dance Hall, Granary, Herbalist, House, Inn, Mill, Shop, Shrine, Smithy, Tannery, Tavern, Tenement, Trade Shop, Watchtower.
Upgrading to a town: It is possible to upgrade a village to a town. However, this takes time and costs BP identical to the cost of preparing a town district.


TOWNS:
A town overall functions like a city with the following exceptions:
Location: A town can be created in a hex that already contains a camp, farm or fishery. A town can only contain one district, and a town district consists of 4 2x2 city grids.
Costs: Cost for preparing a town district site and time for preparation are reduced, to reflect the more limited size of the town.

Preparing a Town District Site:
Terrain: Cost: Time to Prepare:
Forest 2BP 1 month
Grassland 1BP Immediate*
Hills 1BP 1 month
Mountains 6BP 2 months
Swamp 4BP 2 months

Consumption: Town districts add 0.5 a BP to consumption. Consumption is rounded up.
Buildings: Only the following buildings can be build in a town: Alchemist, Barracks, Brewery, Brothel/Dance Hall, City Wall (1 max), Dump, Granary, Graveyard, Herbalist, House, Inn, Mansion, Mill, Monument, Park, Piers, Shop, Shrine, Smithy, Stable, Tannery, Tavern, Tenement, Town Hall, Trade Shop, Watchtower.
Upgrading to a city It is possible to upgrade a town to a city. However, this takes time and costs BP identical to the cost of preparing a town district.


BUILDINGS:

A building that requires an adjacent house that loses that house because the house was demolished should basically go out of business if a new house isn't built in an adjacent square within one kingdom turn. A building that goes out of business removes all of its bonuses from the kingdom, and increases Unrest by 1. This building can go back in to business if a new house is built in an adjacent square—that building can then get back into business once you make an Economy check against the kingdom's Command DC during the next Upkeep.

No more than one building of a type can be placed in the same district, unless that building notes "mult/district", the format is:
Building Name (cost in BP, prerequisites [e.g. 1H], {blocks if <> 1}): +# gp Base Value; Economy; Stability; Loyalty; Unrest; Defense Modifier; limitations and army implications and special rules
1H = must be adjacent to 1 House
2H = must be adjacent to 2 Houses
0H = can’t be adjacent to a House

Slave Pen (20 BP , 0H, 1x2): Utilizing Slave Pens adds a number of new Kingdom Events to the list, all bad - Slave Revolt, Andoran Raid, etc., and also increases likelihood/DCs of some exisitng events such as Plague. Econ +3; Unrest +4; mult/district; All buildings in district cost 20% less round down (stacks only with discounts from other buildings)

TEMPLES:

Normal Rules: Temple (32 BP, 1x2): Discount Graveyard, Monument, and Shrine in the same city; Loyalty +2; Stability +2; Unrest –2; minor items x2

A temple can only be built if the city's alignment is within one step of the deity's alignment. A temple dedicated to Calistria, for example, could only be built in a True Neutral, Chaotic Neutral, or Chaotic Evil City.

NE and CE gods are not included due to the lack of organized temples within a city.

Erastil (LG): Halves cost of Park, Mill, and Shrine in same city; Loyalty +2, Stability +2; Unrest -2.

Iomedae (LG): Halves cost of Graveyard, Watchtower, and Shrine in same city; Loyalty +3, Stability +1; Unrest –2.

Torag (LG): Halves cost of Graveyard, Smith, and City Wall in same city; Loyalty +1, Stability +3; Unrest –2.

Sarenrae (NG): Halves cost of Park, Monument, and Shrine in same city; Loyalty +2, Stability +2; Unrest –2.

Shelyn (NG): Halves cost of Park, Monument, and Shrine in same city; Economy +1, Stability +3; Unrest –2.

Desna (CG): Halves cost of Park, Monument, and Shrine in same city; Loyalty +3, Stability +1; Unrest –2.

Cayden Cailean (CG): Halves cost of Graveyard, Brewery, and Shrine in same city; Economy +2, Loyalty +3, Stability -1; Unrest –2.

Abadar (LN): Halves cost of Graveyard, Monument, and Shop in same city; Economy +3; Loyalty +1, Unrest –2.

Irori (LN): Halves cost of Park, Library, and Shrine in same city; Loyalty +1, Stability +3; Unrest –2.

Gozreh (N): Halves cost of Park, Monument, and Shrine in same city; Loyalty +2, Stability +2; Unrest –2.

Pharasma (N): Halves cost of Graveyard, Monument, and Shrine in same city; Loyalty +1, Stability +3; Unrest –2.

Nethys (N): Halves cost of Graveyard, Library, and Shrine in same city; Economy +1, Loyalty +2, Stability +1; Unrest –2.

Gorum (CN): Halves cost of Graveyard, Smith, and Shrine in same city; Loyalty +3, Stability +1; Unrest –2.

Calistria (CN): Halves cost of Brothel, Monument, and Shrine in same city; Loyalty +1, Stability +3; Unrest –2.

Asmodeus (LE): Halves cost of Graveyard, Monument, and Shrine in same city; Loyalty +2, Stability +2; Unrest –2.

Zon-Kuthon (LE): Halves cost of Graveyard, Monument, and Shrine in same city; Loyalty +3, Stability +1; Unrest –2.


CATHEDRALS:

Normal Rules: Cathedral (58 BP, 2x2): Discounts Academy, Temple in same city; halves Consumption increase for promotion edicts; Loyalty +4; Stability +4; Unrest –4; Fame +1; law +2; limit one per city; minor potions or minor items x3, medium potions or medium items x2

A cathedral can only be built if the city's alignment is the same as the deity's alignment. An LG city, for example, could only build Cathedrals dedicated to Erastil, Iomedae, or Torag.

NE and CE gods are not included due to the lack of organized cathedrals within a city.

Cathedrals to deities marked with P do not grant the reduced price on an Academy or Temple in the same city for the first cathedral to that deity built. When building a second cathedral to the same deity (in a different city), use the default cathedral statistics (a second cathedral to Erastil, for example, does not grant a discount for a second farm per month; it will discount Academies or Temples in the same city by 50% as normal instead).

Cathedrals to deities marked with L reduce the Loyalty bonus the Cathedral provides to +2.

Armies created by the Iomedae or Gorum cathedrals reduce the kingdom's Stability, Economy, and Loyalty by an extra 1 (total 3 each) if defeated. As long as the Cathedral that created them remains intact, they can be recruited again after waiting 1 month's time (IE: they cannot be recruited on the kingdom phase immediately following their defeat, but can be recruited on the following kingdom phase).

Erastil (LG)[P]: One farm per month can be established for half cost (1 BP for a grassland hex, 2 BP for a hill hex).

Iomedae (LG)[P]: You may designate any one Regular army created by this city "Legion of the Inheritor". The Legion requires 1 less Consumption and gains +1 OM.

Torag (LG)[L]: The Defense Modifier of this city increases by 4.

Sarenrae (NG)[P]: Sarenrae's healing of the sick and blessing of the crops reduces Consumption by 2 BP.

Shelyn (NG)[L]: A single Theater in this city can be upgraded to an Opera House of the Rose, increasing the Economy and Stability it provides by 1.

Desna (CG)[P]: Two roads per month can be established for 1 less BP (min. 0 BP).

Cayden Cailean (CG)[L]: A single Tavern in the city can be designated as the Lucky Drunk, holy to Cayden Cailean, increasing the Economy and Loyalty it provides by 1.

Abadar (LN)[L]: The cathedral of Abadar doubles as a Bank, increasing Economy by 1 and the city's base value by +1,000.

Irori (LN)[L]: A free Monastary to the Master of Masters can be established in any controlled Mountain hex, increasing the kingdom's Stability and Loyalty by 1. If the Kingdom does not control a mountain hex at time of this Cathedral's establishment, it may 'save' this until it does.

Gozreh (N)[P]: Preparing a Forest hex for settling only requires 2 BP and takes 1 month to prepare (same as Hills). In addition, cities settled in Forest hexes may be treated as a free partial farm, reducing Consumption by 1 BP.

Pharasma (N)[L]: A single Graveyard in this city can be upgraded to a Boneyard, increasing the Loyalty it provides by 2.

Nethys (N)[P]: A single Caster's Tower in this city can be upgraded to the All Seeing Eye, increasing the Economy it provides by 4.

Gorum (CN)[P]: Any one Regular army created by this city may be designated as the "Iron Warriors". These troops receive the Improved Armor upgrade for free and begin with the Defensive Wall Tactic (this does not count against the max tactics it may learn).

Calistria (CN)[L]: A single Brothel/Dance Hall in the city can be upgraded to the "Unquenchable Flames of Lust" brothel/temple, increasing the Economy and Loyalty it provides by 1.

Asmodeus (LE)[L]: The Loyalty penalty for all Taxes (except none) is reduced by 2 (Light becomes +1, Normal +0, Heavy -2, Overwhelming -6).

Zon-Kuthon (LE)[L]: Fear inspired from a city in the shadow of the Midnight Lord increases Loyalty by 1 and the Defense Modifier by 2.

[Gavinfoxx]

So could you look at some of my compilation here https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aG4P3dU6WP3pq8mW9l1qztFeNfqQHyI22oJe09i8KWw/mobilebasic

And maybe figure out how some of the ideas might help or work with your house rules?

[Extra Anchovies]

Yerltvachovicic, those are all really cool suggestions. I'm bookmarking this thread in case I ever run a kingdom-building game.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yerltvachovicic, could you look at some of the ideas I put in my thread and maybe come up with some plausible changes to your houserules?

[Gavinfoxx]

Anyone have any other good houserule ideas?

[Gavinfoxx]

Yerl, what did you think of my ideas?