Temptations to Evil

[Tarvok]

In my comments on the question of Roy's goodness and Miko's evilness, I have referred to the idea that each of them had a weakness, and that each of them were tested, responding differently to their tests. What about the other characters? Could each of them have a flaw that could turn out to be fatal? What could it be? Let us speculate on their fatal flaws, and whether or not they have yet faced that flaw.

Roy: Roy's is, obviously, his contempt for methods he considers ineffective, a flaw he inherited from his father. His resistance to that flaw has already been tested, when he abandoned Elan in the forest because of his contempt for Elan's "incompetence." When he realized what he had done, he immediately turned back to right the wrong.

Miko: Her absolute committment to her own rightness. If she can find humility, this can turn out to be a good trait: recognizing her error, she would stop at nothing to expunge the evil from her own character. However, humility is not a strong trait for her. I believe she realized her error when the gods (and Hinjo) pointed it out to her, but instead of aknowledging it and seeking to right the wrong (as Roy did), she instead chose to harden her heart and erect a wall of defensiveness against it, out of fear of being wrong. Thus, she turns to evil, and I'm not sure she can come back from this, any more than Roy could have had he decided his contempt for incompetance was more important than his committment to protecting the weak.

Elan: You got me. Maybe he could be tempted to turn to evil at a dramatically appropriate moment, but I doubt it. Maybe his new mentor could turn him to piracy. I'm grasping at straws here. What could turn Elan to evil?

Varsuvias: His hunger for PHENOMENAL COSMIC POWER and the public recognition of such could well be his weakness. What form his testing would take has yet to be determined, but I could see him being gradually turned to evil by a master who has the ability to teach him so much more, and the desire to turn Varsuvius to evil.

Belkar: Given that Belkar is already evil and has always been evil, perhaps the question for him is, what could make him turn to good? What redeeming quality could ultimately "tempt" him into seeing the error of his ways? Perhaps it is his loyalty to his friends could be it, though it's entirely possible that is little more than a plot device to keep him in the game, and with the party.

Maybe his association with the rest of the party could rub off on him; his appreciation of a good laugh with Elan, or a good fight with Roy, or his INSATIABLE LUST for Varsuvius ;) , his appreciation for Halley combined with the full realization of her inherent goodness, or even a good heart-to-heart with Durkon combined with devoting a fourth-level point to Wisdom, could cause him to turn to... neutrality at least... in order to fit in better. Of course, his inherent bloodlust could forever hold him back from that, and force the Order to act against him, one day.

Halley: Her love of treasure, perhaps? Her specific goal as to how much she wants? I could see her struggling with a desire to play it safe and take off with the money once she has enough for her purposes, at precisely the moment she is needed most. Maybe she could get used to being rich, and devolve into a genuinely greedy <bad person> who will stop at nothing for a little more gold. But her love for Elan will probably keep her from abandoning the party at a critical moment.

Her love for Elan could also be her weakness. What would she do if their relationship came to an end at a time not of her choosing? I don't know.

Durkon: Perhaps we could describe the incident with a certain dwarvan priestess as his moment of testing. His hunger for association with fellow dwarves caused him to jump into bed with the enemy, quite literally. He didn't even check her holy symbol to see who she was a priest of... and that's important to clerics. It wasn't until he discovered her marital infidelity that he really stopped to check who he was sleeping with, and he held to his ideals, rather than continue... but I can't help but imagine it was difficult for him. He could have easily ended up abandoning both his friends and his faith to keep on knocking boots with the dwarf chick.

Anyone else have anything on this? Any other characters (I may have more later)? Differing opinions as to what a given character's potentially fatal flaw could be?

[EvilElitest]

I think that what could turn Belkar to good is instense hatred for one who is evil (Or Miko) he will be forced to make morals to fight evil.
From,
EE

[Demented]

Elan: You got me. Maybe he could be tempted to turn to evil at a dramatically appropriate moment, but I doubt it. Maybe his new mentor could turn him to piracy. I'm grasping at straws here. What could turn Elan to evil?

One word: Nale.

[MReav]

Elan: You got me. Maybe he could be tempted to turn to evil at a dramatically appropriate moment, but I doubt it. Maybe his new mentor could turn him to piracy. I'm grasping at straws here. What could turn Elan to evil?

Belkar: Given that Belkar is already evil and has always been evil, perhaps the question for him is, what could make him turn to good? What redeeming quality could ultimately "tempt" him into seeing the error of his ways? Perhaps it is his loyalty to his friends could be it, though it's entirely possible that is little more than a plot device to keep him in the game, and with the party.

Belkar: Either a prostitute with a heart of gold (not a literal one, because he'll harvest it before she can do anything), or a helm of opposite alignment.

Elan: No bleedin' idea.

[MReav]

Elan: You got me. Maybe he could be tempted to turn to evil at a dramatically appropriate moment, but I doubt it. Maybe his new mentor could turn him to piracy. I'm grasping at straws here. What could turn Elan to evil?

Belkar: Given that Belkar is already evil and has always been evil, perhaps the question for him is, what could make him turn to good? What redeeming quality could ultimately "tempt" him into seeing the error of his ways? Perhaps it is his loyalty to his friends could be it, though it's entirely possible that is little more than a plot device to keep him in the game, and with the party.

Belkar: Either a prostitute with a heart of gold (not a literal one, because he'll harvest it before she can do anything), or a helm of opposite alignment.

Actually, remember the Owl's Wisdom?

Elan: No bleedin' idea.

[CardinalFang]

One word: Nale.

I don't see Nale as able to turn Elan evil. I was thinking more along the lines of meeting his father (possibly involving Nale, though).

[Tarvok]

Hmm... his father... now there's an idea. Wait a minute... I have it! And he has already been tested (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0068.html)! His hatred for the evil members of his family could cause him to engage in acts of evil. Good is sometimes about smiting evil; however, WHEN you smite evil, and why, is important, particularly where family is concerned. If he is forced to kill his father and brother to avert catastrophe, that is one thing. If he goes after them out of a sense of hatred, allows himself to be consumed by hate, he might get used to hating. Probably the worst thing they could do to him is go after Halley. What would win out: his dramatic flair (let's go save the damsel in distress!) or his anger? I think the comic linked above show where his loyalties lie, on the scale of good and evil.

[Sage in the Playground]

Durkon knew she worshiped Loki. He just didn't have enough ranks in Knowledege (Religon) to know Loki was evil. (#52)

[Glome]

Elan: You got me. Maybe he could be tempted to turn to evil at a dramatically appropriate moment, but I doubt it. Maybe his new mentor could turn him to piracy. I'm grasping at straws here. What could turn Elan to evil?Well, Elan was sort of tested when Nale was hanging on the bridge and he was tempted to let him fall to his death. Of course even then, I don't think letting Nale drop to his death would have really been an evil act.

Then Elan was actually tested a second time when Nale almost convinces him that Haley was his evil consort and everyone was laughing at him behind his back. Nale obviously came close to capturing how to turn Elan to evil with the latter ploy.

Anyway, If someone convinced him that neither Haley or Roy respected him in the least and were just using him for his own gain, it would a step towards turning him to the darkside.

[Jewel Thief]

[QUOTE=Tarvok;1951786]

Belkar: Given that Belkar is already evil and has always been evil, perhaps the question for him is, what could make him turn to good? What redeeming quality could ultimately "tempt" him into seeing the error of his ways? Perhaps it is his loyalty to his friends could be it, though it's entirely possible that is little more than a plot device to keep him in the game, and with the party.
QUOTE]

Burlew's hinted that if Belkar were a little more wise, he'd realize the error in his ways and possibly change alignments. So, if some kind of item made him wiser...

[Demented]

"Please! Belkar, put it on!"
"No!"
"...You'll get to cast spells."
"N..No."
"Come on! Ranger spells are awesome!"
"They are?"
"...Just put it on!"

[starwoof]

What could make Elan evil?

Haley.

Specifically, his love for Haley. Remember what happened when he ran into Nale seducing her? Imagine if Nale had driven him further. Elan could have gone crazy-ape-bonkers and killed him and her in jealosy/suggestion spell/suppressed rage bottled up by his cheerful demeanor! BAM! Chaotic evil Elan.

But hey, its still unlikely.

[Tarvok]

What could make Elan evil?

Haley.

Specifically, his love for Haley. Remember what happened when he ran into Nale seducing her? Imagine if Nale had driven him further. Elan could have gone crazy-ape-bonkers and killed him and her in jealosy/suggestion spell/suppressed rage bottled up by his cheerful demeanor! BAM! Chaotic evil Elan.

Caradoc. 0_0

No, you're not supposed to get that. That is a *very* inside joke that is my way of announcing my identity to the few that know the story behind that name.

[Tilian]

Halley: Her love of treasure, perhaps? Her specific goal as to how much she wants? I could see her struggling with a desire to play it safe and take off with the money once she has enough for her purposes, at precisely the moment she is needed most. Maybe she could get used to being rich, and devolve into a genuinely greedy <bad person> who will stop at nothing for a little more gold. But her love for Elan will probably keep her from abandoning the party at a critical moment.

Her love for Elan could also be her weakness. What would she do if their relationship came to an end at a time not of her choosing? I don't know.


To be honest, I think the most likely thing that could cause Haley to commit evil acts, as well as the most likely thing to endanger her relationship with Elan, is her struggle to free her father. If it suddenly becomes more complicated than it already is(such as the ruler overturning the punishment to something harsher or requiring something even more unreasonable to free him), Haley could be driven to desparation, especially if she continues to keep it hidden from her companions.

[Elliot Kane]

I agree that Haley's weakness is her Father. She could be tempted to abandon the group at a critical time and possibly doom her friends if she could find a shortcut to freeing her Father.

Elan's greatest weakness is his stupidity. He could be tricked into doing great evil or convinced he was doing the right thing when he wasn't and thus slowly led down the road to evil. He's far more instinctive-good than rational-good, and that could be used against him.

V, by contrast, has the opposite problem. When he gets his ultimate arcane power, it will be so easy for him to think his intelligence means he is best suited to run the world and so disregard the hopes and dreams of others, simply because he knows best. 'Absolute power corrupts absolutely'.

I think Roy's weakness is quite similar to Miko's, in that he is more lawful than good. His self-awareness saves him in the end, though, and there's no real doubt that he is good by choice rather than by upbringing or instinct. I think of all the OOTS he is the least corruptible except for Durkon.

Belkar is evil and irredeemably so. There's just no getting past that. He gets his kicks out of hurting, abusing and corrupting others.

Durkon... Is very lawful and solidly good. I agree that Hilgya was his biggest test, and there's no doubt he had some genuinely strong feelings for her, and possibly even loves her: but he put his principles first. Durkon is pretty much the definition of incorruptible.

[nizwiz]

...Durkon is pretty much the definition of incorruptible.

Six words: "giant gold tankard filled with beer".

And,

Elan: You got me. Maybe he could be tempted to turn to evil at a dramatically appropriate moment, but I doubt it. Maybe his new mentor could turn him to piracy. I'm grasping at straws here. What could turn Elan to evil?

Uhm, maybe someone speaking blasphemously of Banjo.

[Elliot Kane]

Six words: "giant gold tankard filled with beer".


Hmmm... Good point. Whatever happened to that thing? I can figure out what happened to the beer, mind :D

[Saithis Bladewing]

Belkar's alignment can be dealt with by the means of a simple Periapt of Wisdom.

[Vargtass]

Haley has already changed her way of life once for the opportunity to earn faster (and progress faster) as an adventurer as opposed to a Thieves' Guild member. Assume that she discovers an even more lucrative way, connected to evil deeds... hmmm.

Now, this is difficult, because everyone knows that being a PC adventurer is the most lucrative way of living, but if put in the campaign as a test of character... I can think up a few scenarios.

[Skippy the Dire]

For Belkar's Temptation to Good: I think we have aready seen it, and it is unclear to what degree he sucumbs.

Specifically, Belkar, despite all his other loathesome quality, is a sentimental little rat. His reactions are based on whim and how much he 'likes' someone. For example, Belkar 'likes' Durkon (who is an easy mark) and doesn't go out of his way to irriate the dwarf. He likes Elan even more - they have juvenile senses of humor, and the most I have ever seen him try to do to Haley is a Wand of Dispel Clothes (again, immature, not really evil).

And Belkar really liked Shojo. To the point where he is letting Hinjo put him in jail with a minimum of Belkar-tude, I can only assume out of fondness for the old man.

Shojo (despite Belkar's actions in trying to cause Miko to fall) gave Belkar an even break. Hinjo seems to be giving him at least a chance at a fair trial, without browbeating him.

If Hinjo were to, say, rule that Belkar acted like a Prisoner of War (duty to escape, no reason to hold back in the attempt) based on Miko's lack of actual legal jurisdiction (in other words, the Offenses Against the Gods bit being fully bogus), that might be enough to get Belkar to start moderating (especially if Belkar get a level-up character point to put into Wisdom and start acting less evil).

Of course, this would have to be demonstrated over a number of strips, no doubt to the runnning commentary of the rest of the OOTS. And Roy and V would continue to be on the receiving end of Belkar's special attention.

But it would be an interesting direction to take.

[Tilian]

Specifically, Belkar, despite all his other loathesome quality, is a sentimental little rat. His reactions are based on whim and how much he 'likes' someone. For example, Belkar 'likes' Durkon (who is an easy mark) and doesn't go out of his way to irriate the dwarf. He likes Elan even more - they have juvenile senses of humor, and the most I have ever seen him try to do to Haley is a Wand of Dispel Clothes (again, immature, not really evil).

And Belkar really liked Shojo. To the point where he is letting Hinjo put him in jail with a minimum of Belkar-tude, I can only assume out of fondness for the old man.


Don't forget Mr. Scruffy.

I'm trying to think of any other animals he was able to be around without killing them but the only other one that comes to mind is his riding dog.

[Adeptus]

Skippy and Tilian have both posted good points on Belkar. He's a loveable little scamp, and it would be nice to see him develop a little. Then again, the happy-go-stabby Belkar we have now isn't all that evil, especially within the logic of a D&D game.

[Josh Inno]

Elan:

His weakness is stupditity. That's not exactly one that's easy to exploit to turn one to evil.

However another possibility for him... Haley dieing in his arms. Just picture Nale and/or Sabine killing haley, and her dropping back into Elan's arms. I think we'd see the beginning of a more dramatic version of Star Wars episode III starting.

[brian c]

I don't see Nale as able to turn Elan evil. I was thinking more along the lines of meeting his father (possibly involving Nale, though).

Nale almost did make Elan attack Haley, by tricking him and I think using suggestion. Elan can be made to do something evil because he is unintelligent, simply enough.

[Tilian]

I think we'd see the beginning of a more dramatic version of Star Wars episode III starting.

It may just me, but I think Miko's fall already trumped Anakin's as far as emotional effect.

It may be because I was just numb during the latter though.

[Midnight Son]

Durkon's biggest test will be when he finds out the details of why he was sent away from the Dwarven lands. I'm sure it will shake the foundations of his faith.

[Duke of URL]

Elan: Actually being betrayed by Roy (and being able to recognize it as such)

[Duke of URL]

Six words: "giant gold tankard filled with beer".


Naw... that was just to make sure the bandits weren't able to use any of their ill-gotten gains when he dispersed them.

Besides, anything related to dwarves and beer can't be considered "corruption" by any means.

[krossbow]

Elan: Helm of opposite alignment :smalltongue:

[Silverlocke980]

I love this topic, I think.

Just, um, wow. There's a lot of great thinking going on here; most of it, of course, is fluff, because none of us know where this is going, but it's all pointing in excellent directions.

Just comments on my favorite parts:

I totally agree with Skippy the Dire, in that Belkar's redemption lies, specifically, in his sentimentality; he doesn't hold many loyalties but the ones he does are fierce. He's Chaotic Evil, but Evil only insofar as it serves his purposes; he likes to kill, but isn't all that much on the "philosophy" of Evil, if you will. Belkar's evil is a love of self and the harvesting of kidneys- unfortunately for others- but I believe that Belkar would easily enter a Good or Neutral alignment in service to those people he considers friends.

Elan has been tested, I believe, when he didn't kill Nale. Since then, I think he's gotten a free pass to "happy endings".

[krossbow]

UNLESS....


"at least for you" Refers to Elan becoming an ultra evil overlord who rules over his country with an iron fist at the expense of everyone living there, thus ensuring his happy ending while everyone else suffers and dies! Hey, he could always inherit his fathers stick; though getting haley into another one of those black "evil hoe" dresses would be a problem....