Captain America: the Winter Soldier *SPOILERS*

[Archonic Energy]

no, this isn't Spam.

since it was released in the UK last weekend who's seen it?

obviously this thread is going to be spoilerrific, so if you plan on seeing it unspoiled please stop reading now.

I'll post my thoughts in a couple of posts.

[Athaniar]

First, it sure was exciting. Not a dull moment, and all the action was great. Some of the best fights I've seen in a movie. Special mention goes to Cap bringing down a quinjet in single combat. Really, the way he used his shield throughout the movie was so satisfying.

Second, the characters. I'm glad Black Widow got the screen time she did, it helped develop her character, and Falcon is a welcome addition to the roster. Cap and Fury both performed well as expected, and seeing Hill kick ass was a nice surprise (even though I keep thinking of her as Robin from HIMYM). They could've done more with Agent 13/Sharon, though.

As for the villains, Redford's acting skill shows with his performance as Pierce, but it was obvious from the start that he was the main bad guy. The titular Winter Soldier was scary and cool (keeping his look comics-accurate was a good move), and I certainly want to see where his arc goes next. Zola was just creepy, but in a good way. Much better than the IMHO rather silly way he looks in the comics. Not much to say about Rumlow, but he worked as the villainous-muscle-who-is-not-the-title-character. Batroc was cool too, his fight with Cap was a joy to behold. Oh, and I didn't expect Sitwell to be a bad guy.

Then there's the stinger. I'm hopeful the Maximoffs will be visually amazing in AoU, just look at that high-speed effect for Quicksilver and Wanda's magic. Von Strucker will also be fun, it's not like the actor lacks experience with that kind of character. What's he going to do with Loki's scepter, by the way?

When it comes to the plot itself, it was tense and well-crafted. The idea of a massive HYDRA conspiracy is exciting, and the ending really leaves the future of the MCU ambiguous. Let's see how Coulson and his team deal with that. If I have one tiny complaint to make, it's that I wish we could've seen more of the Winter Soldier's earlier actions.

One last thing: I loved the part when they mentioned Stephen Strange. Apparently that was the filmmakers' idea and not mandated by the higher-ups (though Feige is obviously excited about that eventual Doctor Strange film, which can't come soon enough for me).

[BWR]

Saw it yesterday and was generally quite pleased with it. It was more serious than the first one, which was a lot more campy and fun. Generally a good plot (fun to see HYDRA back in action) and it was a ballsy move of the makers to tear down SHIELD which they've been building up over several movies and a TV series. I was a bit disappointed with the use of the Winter Soldier. I'm not familiar with the source material other than the identity of the WS, but the title was misleading and he didn't really do anything other than be slightly threatening in combat. He was really a nonentity as far as the plot was concerned, which was sad. Redford was excellent even as Obvious Baddie was Obvious, and Black Widow finally got some real development. So far I've felt she's been an annoying addition to the movie. I don't like her new straight hair, but she was a better character this time around. Falcon was ok. Never heard of him before this movie, didn't really care one way or the other.
This one definitely had the better ending, but the first one had better characters and was more fun.

On the whole, I'd put it above IM 2, probably barely edging out IM3, but below the Avengers, IM and the first Cap movie.

[Killer Angel]

I don't know it it can help, but a (sort of) friend of mine, who disliked basically all Marvel movies, was very pleased by the Winter Soldier...

[Dusk Eclipse]

I really enjoyed, no major complains except that I think Black Widow's best look is still the the one from IM 2.

Did anyone caught any names other than Stark and President Ellis (?) during the Project Insight targeting sequence?

[BWR]

I really enjoyed, no major complains except that I think Black Widow's best look is still the the one from IM 2.

Did anyone caught any names other than Stark and President Ellis (?) during the Project Insight targeting sequence?

My gf said she saw Bruce Banner on that list. I'd love to see what would happen if they'd managed to fire the guns at him.

[Dusk Eclipse]

He'd probably spit out the bullets....

[Archonic Energy]

Right, on with the show.

I really enjoyed it. I liked the whole HYDRA takes over SHEILD so caps burns it to the ground thing, but this does leave everything in a bit of a state for the MEU as a whole.
it'll be interesting to see how series 2 of AoS turns out. or indeed how they pull the right people together in Avengers 2, but I guess Nick has a plan. he ALWAYS has a plan.

Zola as the PC was way too funny, particularly the CG background showing millions of tape machines... can someone please upload him into an Iron Man suit or something. :smallwink:
the actual winter soldier will probably pay off in CA3 and I'm wondering if they'll push the storyline that annoyed a lot of people. it could be interesting.

speaking of, is there ANYONE who didn't survive the war in the MEU? Bucky, Zola, Hug... I mean the red skull.

also, the list of things I want from the MEU has risen to include the Falcon jetpack (though the iron man suit in my number one slot would make it redundant)

[Sunken Valley]

I really enjoyed, no major complains except that I think Black Widow's best look is still the the one from IM 2.

Did anyone caught any names other than Stark and President Ellis (?) during the Project Insight targeting sequence?

I saw Stephen Strange.

[Dusk Eclipse]

That still doesn't tell us much since both he and Banner where name dropped by Stiller (?)

[Athaniar]

That still doesn't tell us much since both he and Banner where name dropped by Stiller (?)
Sitwell. He starred in one of those BluRay shorts and had a cameo on AoS.

[Archonic Energy]

I must admit, it raises the question if you shoot Banner DEAD before he can transform can he die?

he can't commit suicide because he knew the bullet was coming. but if you surprised him... i'm not so sure?

[Dusk Eclipse]

I actually had that same discussion with my friends when we left the cinema, personally I think that in theory you could kill Banner before he Hulked out, assuming it was a clean kill, probably a headshot or similar, other wise he would have enough time to transform and let the Hulk's healing factor deal with it ( he does have one doesn't he? I'm not really versed on the Hulk). While one of my friends stats that no a "simple" bullet wouldn't be able to kill him in either form.

[pikeamus]

I thought it was great. Probably my second favourite marvel film, behind the Avengers.

I was really pleased Black Widow got some more development and characterisation this film. I was impressed with Scarlett's acting actually, she really carried the scenes where she conversed with the Captain (I'm thinking particularly of the conversation in the car).

Chris Evans handles the physical side of the role really well. Aside from looking the part (and making me think I should spend more time at the gym) he does a fantastic job in the action scenes. Speaking of which, the action choreography, and the fight choreography in particular, was fantastic. The best we've had in any superhero movie yet I think.

So yeah, lots of good things to say about this film. Can't immediately think of anything I want to criticise. I suppose I would say that the title would have been better without the colon. The Winter Soldier wasn't the focus of the plot really, so it didn't make a great deal of sense to have that in the title.

[Cheesegear]

Couple of things; Did anyone notice that Pierce looked a whole lot like what Nick Fury actually looks like in the comics (the non-Ultimate version)?
Scarlett's face had really bad make-up. She looked orange and her red hair didn't quite fit together like it did in the Avengers.
Falcon was amazing. Something readers of the comics have been waiting for. Especially since Cap doesn't have the Howling Commandos in the future so the cast looks a little slim. The Winter Soldier's reveal is not a surprise. Anyone who knows anything knows who the Winter Soldier is, especially if they've turned up to an Advanced Screening.

Having just seen the Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. episode after I saw the movie, I was super disappointed to learn that the delay in the TV schedule to match the movie release schedule didn't actually pay off to anything except for how Sitwell got on the boat, and using the phrase 'Compartmentalisation' a lot.

I knew the lapel pins would be zappers as soon as the Suits put them on.

The nod to Cap's on-again, off-again girlfriend, Agent 13 was nice. Or maybe it's not a nod, and is foreshadowing.
But, the Ant-Man movie is coming out soon, and, unlikely as it is that they'll use a Hank Pym that beats his wife, Cap gets with Wasp, too at one point.
Of course, if the plot is going where I think it is - Avengers Disassembled (the title alone is a hint even if you haven't read the book) - Cap gets with Wanda, too.

Considering the B-plot of the movie is that Cap can't find a girlfriend, I feel that these are interesting points to make. Still. Avengers Disassembled. I'm looking forward to it.

[Dusk Eclipse]

You know, now that I think so, there is something that is really bothering me out of the the movie, how could Widow track the source of the Project Insight source using a freaking MAC from an apple store! Seriously what the hell? Loved the scene in general, but that particular part did bug me a lot.

[BWR]

You know, now that I think so, there is something that is really bothering me out of the the movie, how could Widow track the source of the Project Insight source using a freaking MAC from an apple store! Seriously what the hell? Loved the scene in general, but that particular part did bug me a lot.

Add it to the grand tradition of improbable computer stuff in movies, like hacking into alien military ships with a laptaop. We know it isn't the power of the computer that determines whether you succeed, but how good you are at tapping a keyboard.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Add it to the grand tradition of improbable computer stuff in movies, like hacking into alien military ships with a laptaop. We know it isn't the power of the computer that determines whether you succeed, but how good you are at tapping a keyboard.

You are probably right, still I personally thought the MCU had done well on that front so far, I don't recall anything ridiculous computer related stuff that wan't done by either J.A.R.V.I.S or S.H.I.E.L.D, who do have a pass.

[Sapphire Guard]

Okay, I have a silly question.


Tasha is a Russian national working for a multinational secret black ops unit with universal jurisdiction-what makes her answerable to an American committee?

[BWR]

Because Americans don't let themselves be limited by issues of nationality when they decide to move?
Honestly, the whole SHIELD business was weird. Homeland security, but operates as basically an international organization yet Americans use it as their primary intelligence agency (according to that scene)...the mind boggles.

The best thing to do is treat it like magic and Stark's supertech - ignore the fact that it doesn't make sense IRL and enjoy the movie.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I've always thought Natasha was given American citizenship as part of the deal when she started working for S.H.I.E.L.D

[ben-zayb]

Just a silly realization after seeing the Maximoffs... Is Marvel Studios even allowed to touch X-men characters? Pretty sure Columbia Pictures still got them by the balls on that one.


Funny how some of MU's front and center in the comics biz (Spider-Man, Deadpool, and X-MenWolverine) aren't even touchable in MCU.

[Cheesegear]

Just a silly realization after seeing the Maximoffs... Is Marvel Studios even allowed to touch X-men characters?

Some of them, the ones that X-Men haven't gotten around to using. Basically, the X-Men that you've seen, are the only X-Men you're going to see.

[ben-zayb]

Some of them, the ones that X-Men haven't gotten around to using. Basically, the X-Men that you've seen, are the only X-Men you're going to see.
Yep, that's unfortunately what I'm saying. (http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--95FK5NOe--/c_fit,fl_progressive,w_636/19dv267ufz6bmjpg.jpg)

[Athaniar]

The Maximoffs can be used by the MCU too because they've been prominent Avengers members (as long as they don't call them mutants or reference their dad). Dunno what that means for other characters in the same situation, e.g. Beast. I think I've read that they have a similar arrangement with the skrulls, too.

[Chen]

The Maximoffs can be used by the MCU too because they've been prominent Avengers members (as long as they don't call them mutants or reference their dad).

Note that they don't seem to have sole use of Quicksilver, since he's already also credited in X-men: Days of Future Past (different actor though).

[ben-zayb]

Note that they don't seem to have sole use of Quicksilver, since he's already also credited in X-men: Days of Future Past (different actor though).Then again, maybe Marvel Studios thought that Evan Peters was playing a mutant Andy Warhol instead of Pietro... food for thought.:smallamused:

[shadow_archmagi]

I had a lot of fun. This was definitely not a movie I regret seeing. I particularly enjoyed the first few fights, which were soley to show how rad Cap is.

I was incredibly saddened when that Councilmember turned out to be Black Widow in disguise. I really wanted one of the senator hostages to just know kung fu because why wouldn't you, in that kind of universe?

I feel like Zola could've been handled better "Oh hi! You thought I was dead, but you were incorrect! I'm actually alive as an evil computer. Welp, that was fun. Dying now!" You'd think SHIELD would've given him a more modern setup than thousands of old timey tape computers.

The IT profession in me also cringed at the whole "finding the file's origin" bit.

Query: At the beginning, when Fury finds out the space flashdrive is locked, what's going on there? Is that Zola having locked the drive using Nick's command codes, or is Nick into some weird "compartmentalization" thing, possibly involving time travel, so he can lock the drive from himself after realizing it'll be a problem?

[EmeraldRose]

We finally saw the first one (since it's been playing fairly non-stop on TV for the last week) and it was...amazing! Absolutely going to have to see Winter Soldier when it comes out. I plan to lurk in here, since I don't much care about spoilers, and who knows when we will actually get around to seeing it...

[BWR]

There's really only one thing I feel should never be spoiled: Watchmen - the twist is just beautiful and robbing someone of that is a crime.
Runner up is Sixth Sense (or as I like to call it, the movie inspired by Tanith Lee's far superior "Kill the dead")

[Karoht]

You know, now that I think so, there is something that is really bothering me out of the the movie, how could Widow track the source of the Project Insight source using a freaking MAC from an apple store! Seriously what the hell? Loved the scene in general, but that particular part did bug me a lot.Because product placement gives you super powers in the movies.

Now I'm going to go looking for the red bull logo in the first captain america movie.

[MCerberus]

I saw the Jackson interview on The Daily Show and picked up that they're using a lot of practical effects instead of CGI. Is this true? because that would be just great.

[Athaniar]

Speaking of product placement, the one thing that stood out to me was that every car's a Chevy. I like to believe that's an important part of the HYDRA conspiracy somehow.

[Benthesquid]

Random thoughts, in no particular order.

"So in this scene, we need Fury to be shot to advance the plot and set up Cap's isolation from SHIELD."

"Right. One problem."

"What's that?"

"Fury's still being played by Samuel L. Jackson."

"Well crap. An elaborate action sequence it is."
***
They gave Sam an origin that was fairly logical, with still a nice nod to the comics continuity with some social work. Less complicated than his comics origin. "He's an athletic social worker with a trained hawk who was on this island Cap was trapped on. For reasons! No, wait, he's a gangster who Red Skull reality warped into having been a social worker. For other reasons! He can talk to birds, or maybe just the one bird, or maybe the bird's just well trained! Now he has wings, from Black Panther."

And much less confusing than Ultimate Falcon, who was an anthropologist investigating the use of psychoactive substances in shamanic rituals among tribes in the Amazon. Who also had a set of powered wings, and worked for SHIELD and was recruited to break into a Russian black facility to find/rescue the Vision, who was the herald of Galactus. Nothing about that wasn't awesome, but it suffered from being a minor part of a much bigger book.

But here, Falcon is a retired military Pararescue badass, who counsels his fellow veterans. Very nice, I thought.
***
So we've got fairly explicit set-ups for three films coming out of this. Natasha goes off to find her new purpose/deal with all of her secrets being dumped on Wikileaks. Nick Fury goes off to Europe to straight up murder some Hydras. Falcon and Cap go off to try and find the Winter Soldier, who's trying to recover his identity.
***
A refreshing lack of romance. Despite Natasha and Cap going on the run together and having to smooch to avoid suspicion, they build and maintain a fairly strong but entirely platonic friendship. Kudos to you, Hollywood (although some of my friends were disappointed they seem to have dropped the Natasha/Winter Soldier angle from the comics).
***
I like to imagine a bunch of HYDRA goons rolling up to assassinate Clint, and him just shooting them all, and then spending the rest of the movie trying to figure out what's happening. "Cap? Natasha? You want to tell me what's up with all of this? Fury? Coulson? Anyone?"

And he has bandages on his face, because Fraction.
***
Any clue who the valedictorian they mentioned in the "List of people we're totally gonna shoot the crap out of," was?

[Dienekes]

Random thoughts, in no particular order.

"So in this scene, we need Fury to be shot to advance the plot and set up Cap's isolation from SHIELD."

"Right. One problem."

"What's that?"

"Fury's still being played by Samuel L. Jackson."

"Well crap. An elaborate action sequence it is."

I think you're forgetting the amount of times Sammy J has been killed off like a bitch.

Anyway, just saw it. I thought that was great. I think more than any other movie this one shook up the status quo of the Marvel Movie Universe. And, while a lot of the overarching reveals were fairly predictable (anyone for a second think Pierce was a good guy? No?) it still had a few moves I didn't see coming. The scene where they wiped Bucky was well done, as was Cap's scene with Peggy. The action was also really well done, though I still prefer when the camera takes a step back so I can actually see all the fight instead of getting close and shaky. It didn't happen very often, but I always notice when it does.

I am, a little disappointed by Batroc. "Ze Leapair" is one of my favorite B list villains because of his ridiculous personality, and even though he's a merc, he's a merc with some morals who won't be apart of murder sprees. In this he was just a thug with military training, known for having high casualties. It's a minor detail, doesn't really alter my perception of the film in any way, since I don't think comic Batroc would ever translate well to the movie universe.

[The New Bruceski]

There's really only one thing I feel should never be spoiled: Watchmen - the twist is just beautiful and robbing someone of that is a crime.
Runner up is Sixth Sense (or as I like to call it, the movie inspired by Tanith Lee's far superior "Kill the dead")

Also The Usual Suspects.

As to this movie, holy crap. That was fun. My favorite bit was that part between the opening logo and the end credits. Some specific things of note/snark (mostly snark):
--Last part first: I guess "miracle" is an m-word they ARE allowed to use. Am I the only one who started humming the Addams Family theme what with how strung out those two looked?
--It's a bit surreal to hear a quinjet loudspeaker say "Mister Rogers, please stand down."
--Strangest episode of How I Met Your Mother ever
--The showdown in the control room. "Who do I shoot? Where do I point my gun?" Where are you pointing your gun? Can we get nametags or something? Shirts versus skins?"

[Jayngfet]

Speaking of product placement, the one thing that stood out to me was that every car's a Chevy. I like to believe that's an important part of the HYDRA conspiracy somehow.

Ford has a deal with most real life police forces and supplies the bulk of actual police cars across multiple countries. Anyone imitating police officers would probably buy and paint over a bunch of Crown victorias. Somehow it's easy to imagine that out of convenience SHIELD would throw their vehicle needs in to the same company. I mean obviously there's actual product placement involved, much like the prominent gum sticks and whatnot, but you can at least justify them as adding to realism.


Note that they don't seem to have sole use of Quicksilver, since he's already also credited in X-men: Days of Future Past (different actor though).

Photos have been floating around of both suits and actors, and honestly neither has been selling me on it very well. Marvel's suit looks more dynamic but it's missing something. It's always kind of depressing that Cap gets to wear bright colors and Iron Man is in a suped up version of his iconic suit, but guys like Quicksilver and Hawkeye have to wear black and grey for some reason.

[The New Bruceski]

I can't believe I forgot my favorite easter egg! Fury's tombstone quotes Ezekiel 25:17, "And I will execute great vengeance upon them with furious rebukes; and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall lay my vengeance upon them."

Not only appropriate for the movie, but also a Pulp Fiction joke.

[Dragonexx]

Loved how they namedropped Dr. Strange as one of the people to snipe.

Apparently he's already in action doing whatever it is he does, and now shield/hydra wants him down (as if they could).

Also, the set up for avengers two with Hydra having Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver, along with Loki's scepter.

[ben-zayb]

Also, the set up for avengers two with Hydra having Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver, along with the mind gem holder.Fixed it for you.:smallwink:

[Dusk Eclipse]

Ford has a deal with most real life police forces and supplies the bulk of actual police cars across multiple countries. Anyone imitating police officers would probably buy and paint over a bunch of Crown victorias. Somehow it's easy to imagine that out of convenience SHIELD would throw their vehicle needs in to the same company. I mean obviously there's actual product placement involved, much like the prominent gum sticks and whatnot, but you can at least justify them as adding to realism.



Photos have been floating around of both suits and actors, and honestly neither has been selling me on it very well. Marvel's suit looks more dynamic but it's missing something. It's always kind of depressing that Cap gets to wear bright colors and Iron Man is in a suped up version of his iconic suit, but guys like Quicksilver and Hawkeye have to wear black and grey for some reason.

At least Hawkeye is going to get his goofy eared mask for AoU.


Loved how they namedropped Dr. Strange as one of the people to snipe.

Apparently he's already in action doing whatever it is he does, and now shield/hydra wants him down (as if they could).

Also, the set up for avengers two with Hydra having Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver, along with Loki's scepter.

I don't remember, has Marvel confirmed a Doctor Strange Movie or is it just rumors still?

[Cheesegear]

I don't remember, has Marvel confirmed a Doctor Strange Movie or is it just rumors still?

They have a script - or at least a direction that they want - and they're looking for a Director right now, frontrunners are...

This guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Andrews_(filmmaker)), this guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Levine) and this guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Derrickson).

[SaintRidley]

Well that was awesome. And there's apparently a high school valedictorian in my area who would pose a threat to Hydra. The whole theatre burst into laughter upon hearing that.

[Dusk Eclipse]

They have a script - or at least a direction that they want - and they're looking for a Director right now, frontrunners are...

This guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Andrews_(filmmaker)), this guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Levine) and this guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Derrickson).

Ok, now I'm rooting for Scott Derrickson.

[ben-zayb]

I'm actually quite surprised with how Marvel Studios handled their universe. The future plot is really shaping up nicely for that Avengers 3 movie. I think they also said in one interview that there will also be an infinity gem somewhere in the Guardians movie, and I'm expecting the same for the sorcerer supreme.

With Strange, any ideas on how they are gonna handle magic? If I recall, Asgard is refluffed as a sufficiently hi-tech world so they dodged that bullet.

[Cheesegear]

With Strange, any ideas on how they are gonna handle magic?

Probably the same way they handle it with Scarlet Witch.
Also, Strange is also a somewhat talented neurosurgeon. That may or may not tie into it somehow.

[Jayngfet]

I'm actually quite surprised with how Marvel Studios handled their universe. The future plot is really shaping up nicely for that Avengers 3 movie. I think they also said in one interview that there will also be an infinity gem somewhere in the Guardians movie, and I'm expecting the same for the sorcerer supreme.

With Strange, any ideas on how they are gonna handle magic? If I recall, Asgard is refluffed as a sufficiently hi-tech world so they dodged that bullet.

No idea, but just because it's all "science" doesn't mean it's not basically magic. Even if it's technically science, everything going on in Asgard is basically magic in all but name. You just have to take it a few steps further to get to something more in line with magic.

[Gamerlord]

Just came back from watching it. Pretty good all around, except for the Winter Soldier himself. Hydra could probably have created some kind of cardboard-based robot and it would have had the same depth and character of that guy. Never really read the comics, so I don't know if that version is also all Broody McQuiet, but hopefully he'll be more interesting in any future film that gives him more screen-time that isn't a fight scene.

[ben-zayb]

No idea, but just because it's all "science" doesn't mean it's not basically magic. Even if it's technically science, everything going on in Asgard is basically magic in all but name. You just have to take it a few steps further to get to something more in line with magic.No, see, the point they're trying to make was for primitive people like us, Asgardian technology can only be explained by "A Wizard did it" (ergo, magic). So of course, the way we see it, it's basically magic in all but name. On the other hand, they're still yet to explain how the Infinity Stones work (assuming the IG wasn't originally Asgardian tech), in case Scarlet Witch or Strange works off those as power sources.

[Legato Endless]

Okay. To echo the collective group responsive, it's a zippy little movie. I quite enjoyed it. Lots of action, some great choreography, and less than normal shaky cam, which is a step in the right direction. There's a lot of elements in play, it doesn't keep track of them particularly well, but all the things that need to work do. The Hydra Plan is lovely in that it doesn't even need to actually work effectively, it's dangerous just because Hydra believes it will and the carnage they'll wreck. Fury's scene with the car was particularly well done. Redford gives a good if transparent performance, Evans is great as usual, and all the cameos are nice.

So, my few quibbles. The biggest one being, the political thriller aspect. The film has a chance to make a statement, which is marred by the bad guys literally all being secret nazis. The Hydra conspiracy of shield works fine, but that everyone else going along with it was also, gives a neat excuse to buck a far messier question. The walking political caricature would have worked fantastically as a collaborator, not a true believer. The other slightly disappointing part being the nonentity Bucky is for much of the film. He's great when he's on, but as previously mentioned, he's fairly minor in the grand scheme. It's a bit disappointing, though it's not a flaw so much as missed opportunity. Agent 13 as well, we get very little out of. Hopefully that will be fleshed out in the future. I'm also a bit conflicted about Cap's fight with the french commando. Dropping the shield to "fight fair" is a bit weird. Cap's an idealistic solider, not a warrior out for an honorable dual. Risking the mission, or even just himself, just to prove a point feels out of place for someone so selfless. That said, he handily drops the commando once he gets his other hand free, so it could be argued as a pragmatic decision when the fight was going somewhat ambiguously before.

This got a lot of pieces moving. It's certainly the strongest film of the phase 2 era.

[shadow_archmagi]

Yeah, I feel like on one hand, if the film is named "The Winter Soldier" it should revolve more around the winter soldier. (Although, of course, naming it "Everyone Is Hydra and They've Got Super Aircraft Carriers" might've had consequences of its own)

On the other hand, I think it's fun that the movie decided to not actually resolve anything with Bucky. Too often Hollywood feels compelled to wrap everything up in 30 minutes; this suggests that Bucks was only on part 1 of a longer journey.

[SeeDarkly_X]

Just a silly realization after seeing the Maximoffs... Is Marvel Studios even allowed to touch X-men characters? Pretty sure Columbia Pictures still got them by the balls on that one.
Funny how some of MU's front and center in the comics biz (Spider-Man, Deadpool, and X-MenWolverine) aren't even touchable in MCU.

I mean absolutely no offense intended to anyone at all.... but a lot of responses to this are either just a little off the mark or riddled with bits of misinformation/misunderstanding.
Here's some clarification. Might be long:

Long ago, Marvel offered up specific rights to other movie companies BEFORE the MCU was even a thought. Rights to the X-men, and any reference to "mutants" are owned by FOX (as are the Fantastic Four and related characters.)
HOWEVER, rights to the specific characters of Scarlet Witch & Quicksilver are NOT solely owned by FOX and are considered a "shared property."

What this means for the movies?
The MCU is free to use the Maximoff twins but may not make mention of them as "mutants" nor can they reveal Magneto as their father.
{If you know your Avengers history, this really is no big deal. Because while yes, both originated as members of Magneto's Brotherhood in the pages of the X-men (and for only 3 or 4 issues in the title's first year before moving to the Avengers,) they had NO IDEA he was their father until they had been prominent with the Avengers for 19 years after they were introduced. Magneto was ALSO unaware of their relation for as long.}
FOX is free to use the characters both as mutants and Magneto's children, but may not mention the Avengers.

What has occurred because of this?
Marvel has tried to regain all film property rights. Most have not been regained. (They got Daredevil, Elektra, Ghost Rider, Blade, & Punisher and all related characters back either because of reversion or negotiations.)
Later, Joss Whedon announced the twins would be a part of Avengers 2. Within a week (IIRC) of that announcement, Bryan Singer announced that Quicksilver would be part of an action sequence in Days of Future Past (later revealed that it had literally been written in after Whedon's announcement.)
So it's clear that FOX wanted to maintain a grip on the rights of those characters before "non-usage" became a defense Marvel could use to re-acquire sole rights. Kind of an ugly reactionary move that serves to confuse the audience and does little to advance a story, but whatever, it's their right and the X-men films have been mostly solid over-all.

Unless DOFP and the next X-films that have been planned (I believe APOCALYPSE is in the making) completely bomb, there really isn't any hope of Marvel regaining those rights any time soon.
The same is true of the Spider-Man rights owned by Sony.

[Dienekes]

Just came back from watching it. Pretty good all around, except for the Winter Soldier himself. Hydra could probably have created some kind of cardboard-based robot and it would have had the same depth and character of that guy. Never really read the comics, so I don't know if that version is also all Broody McQuiet, but hopefully he'll be more interesting in any future film that gives him more screen-time that isn't a fight scene.

The Winter Soldier, is really just a gun. His only interesting aspect is his past relationship with Rogers, which I think they were focusing on. Evans I thought did a good job acting against a character, who by nature pretty much has to be a blank slate.

That said, I think he did have a seen or two that were well done just focusing around Bucky. His debriefing scene was particularly good for the confusion and pain he conveyed. His last fight with Cap was also pretty, good, but not as interesting.


So, my few quibbles. The biggest one being, the political thriller aspect. The film has a chance to make a statement, which is marred by the bad guys literally all being secret nazis. The Hydra conspiracy of shield works fine, but that everyone else going along with it was also, gives a neat excuse to buck a far messier question. The walking political caricature would have worked fantastically as a collaborator, not a true believer.

I think the statement was made. Even if the villains were HYDRA, the social commentary aspects were far more focused on the interaction between Rogers and Fury. I can't help but think the fact that it was deemed important to have all of SHIELD intelligence posted on the internet and the subsequent abandonment of SHIELD entirely was anything other than a very knowing political message.

[Eldan]

Well, that was considerably more bearable than the snorefest that was the first movie. Rogers himself is still as annoying as ever (seriously, who talks like that. He sounds like an alien robot who ate a book of inspirational phrases for breakfast), but at least now there are actually interesting characters for him to play straight man to and considerably more Nick Fury.

The good:
Fury, Falcon, Romanova all kick ass.
As opposed to the last one, this one feels as if the action actually serves a purpose and there are some stakes, instead of a series of increasingly bigger explosions for no reason.
Tons of funny lines. Biggest laugh was gotten by "I'm Swiss", but I guess that's just the location. "Zola" is such a stereotypically Swiss name, too :smalltongue:
Special credit to Nick Fury's headstone.

The bad:
Rogers, still. Damn is he ever self-righteous and holier-than-thou.
The movie missed some beat. There were about twenty people in the cinema other than me and some friends. When the Capt'n fell out of the helicarrier to slow, sad piano music and crashing into the water accompanied by heavenly beams of light, everyone was either giggling awkwardly or just laughing loudly, it was so overdone.
Bucky. When he took of the mask, I heard at least three people saying "Who's that?" and one guy asking his girlfriend "should we know him"? Needed more exposition.
More "America is so awesome" propaganda, but much less annoying this time. Still, I was half expecting for someone to just turn to the camera and read us a moral about drugs or bullying.

The really bad:
I guess Captain America (**** Yeah!) can't fight other Americans. The only bad guys bad enough for him to fight are Nazis. What a giant disappointment that reveal was, I was hoping for actually corrupt politicians and at least a semblance of a debate. Maybe next time, he can fight faceless aliens or robots.


Still, I Think overall I was entertained, if annoyed at the third-act reveal.

[Legato Endless]

I'm going to disagree fervently on the Bucky presentation. Bucky being the winter soldier was an open secret to anywhere it was discussed on the internet. Even if you didn't know comic book lore, you only needed minor genre savvy to guess he was. All the film asks is that you vaguely remember the first film. Even if you didn't remember or had seen the first film, you still get tons of info about who Bucky is. The historical display recounts his role in world war one. The flashback establishes his relationship with Cap. The brainwashing scene and Zola memory tells us how he got here.

Expository dialogue would have been less elegant and unrealistic. Cap telling the camera, oh noes! Tis my presumed friend from world war 2 who was my bestest bud and yet is here now and unaged, how strange is that? I remember when we fought the red skull, and how he was the only one who got girls until I got taller.

It's always immersion breaking to me when people carefully reexplain to each other things they already know. I am very biased on this, but I prefer losing some people who couldn't keep track of details than being spoon fed everything in the story.

[Eldan]

Thing is, I kept away from spoilers too and I didn't know. Heck, when he took the mask off, I didn't connect him to Bucky at all. Didn't get a good look at him in the few scenes when he showed up earlier and didn't recognize the actor. He looked quite different (and really generic and forgetable as Bucky).

[Athaniar]

Re: Asgard and magic, at least both Loki and Lorelei (on AoS) have been called magic-users by other Asgardians. Thor in his first film also explained it by saying that magic and technology are one and the same in Asgard, not that what humans see as magic is actually tech.

[Dienekes]

The really bad:
I guess Captain America (**** Yeah!) can't fight other Americans. The only bad guys bad enough for him to fight are Nazis. What a giant disappointment that reveal was, I was hoping for actually corrupt politicians and at least a semblance of a debate. Maybe next time, he can fight faceless aliens or robots.

Except for Zola, I'm pretty sure every HYDRA member they fought was American. Though, you are right about one thing. Next time, he's going to be fighting robots.

Also, I have to agree with Legato. He was an important character in the first movie. 10 minutes into this movie that had a scene that showed him and literally went through all the bullet points you needed to know. And at the reveal Cap calls out his name and then explains again who he is. If you can't figure it out, I literally don't know what else to say. Other than trying to insert the name Bucky into 3 or so more scenes where it really wouldn't fit.

[Eldan]

Nono, I got it once the Captain said his name. But I didn't recognize his face. Also don't remember him from the first movie, but I guess there's a lot of things i don't remember from the first.

[erikun]

Query: At the beginning, when Fury finds out the space flashdrive is locked, what's going on there? Is that Zola having locked the drive using Nick's command codes, or is Nick into some weird "compartmentalization" thing, possibly involving time travel, so he can lock the drive from himself after realizing it'll be a problem?
I'm fairly certain that it was part of a setup.

This is presumably why Jasper Sitwell (bald guy with glasses) was the one SHIELD agent on board the ship as a hostage at the beginning, and why it was later revealed that he was a HYDRA agent. HYDRA could encrypt the data while on the ship, and encode it with the authorization of "Nick Fury". As such, they could just reveal that Nick Fury had manipulated things to get the data (he sent the pirates to take over the ship, then sent his own SHIELD agents as cover to get the data). With Nick Fury organizating the mission and Nick Fury encrypting the data, they could just blame Nick Fury for whatever was going wrong after he was dead.

Fury clearly knew something was wrong once he found the file encrypted by himself, without his authorization to decrypt it. It was why he tried to put Project Insight on hold.

[Olinser]

Overall, a good movie, I was entertained. I'd recommend seeing it.


However, there were a few negative things I thought took away from the movie.

1) The whole 'Project Insight' plan to begin with. We're talking about a multinational council, and we're supposed to believe that they seriously thought it was a good idea to put a system in place that could kill anybody in the world? We're seriously supposed to swallow this?

2) Their total inability to find Captain America. OK, they didn't expect him to get out of the elevator. But they send one single plane after him, and after it crashes they..... forget about all their other assets? They just magically lose sight of a guy that has very little covert training and not that much understanding of how modern technology tracking works?

3) Black Widow hacking the encryption with a freaking Macbook. Seriously, wtf. In addition, their response to the tracking beacon. People planning what they were planning would have just had a drone/plane put a missile into the building. They were certainly willing to sacrifice Zolaf, a valuable asset, a little later on, and they certainly didn't care about collateral damage when they were blasting at Captain/Black Widow on the freeway. Their plan literally requires the death of millions of people, why would they choke over a few civilians at that particular time? A cover story wouldn't even be that hard to think up.

4) Black Widow's sanctimonious 'you need me' speech at the end. She should have gotten tossed in prison. Seriously, they DON'T need you. You're an agent of questionable loyalty with abilities that aren't even that great when compared to plenty of other much less shady and more loyal agents. Also, considering your entire life just got uploaded onto the internet, your ability to act as a covert agent has been completely compromised. If Captain America had said it, I'd buy that they'd just let him walk away, but most definitely not Black Widow.

[LaZodiac]

Her "you need me" speech is about her being an Avenger. It's subtle, but there are hints that everyone's gearing up to go into Avenger Tower, that was hinted at in Avengers 1. It's why Fury's off to England, to get Thor home.

[Athaniar]

1) The whole 'Project Insight' plan to begin with. We're talking about a multinational council, and we're supposed to believe that they seriously thought it was a good idea to put a system in place that could kill anybody in the world? We're seriously supposed to swallow this?
This is the same council that seriously thought nuking New York was a good Plan A.

[Legato Endless]

It's also not historically unprecedented. Never underestimate the ability of a ruling body to come to a bone headed decision that could later blow up in their faces.

[Olinser]

Her "you need me" speech is about her being an Avenger. It's subtle, but there are hints that everyone's gearing up to go into Avenger Tower, that was hinted at in Avengers 1. It's why Fury's off to England, to get Thor home.

Again, it's not the speech itself, it's who was giving it.

I wouldn't have batted an eye if it had been Captain America doing it. You'd have serious problems throwing Captain America in jail to begin with, especially after he just basically saved the world (again). But Black Widow? Yeah, she should have been tossed in jail in a second.

[Cheesegear]

Rogers, still. Damn is he ever self-righteous and holier-than-thou.

Are you missing the point of the character? Or do you not like the character to begin with?

Steve is holier-than-thou because he is. That was the whole point of Act I in the first movie. Steve is Superman, to Fury's Batman. Steve refuses to compromise and lives in a world of black and white, while Fury lives in a world of grey - and leaning on the black side, too. Why would anyone trade liberty for security? Don't people understand that if they just decided to be good people, we wouldn't need security in the first place?

You can either question Steve, say it's not for you and leave him to it (Natasha). You can argue with Steve (Fury), or you can follow Rogers to the ends of the earth because you believe in him (Falcon).

I'm also disappointed that it was never brought up that Black Widow and Winter Soldier had worked together before. However, changing Winter Soldier's origin to German instead of Russian probably had something to do with that. That being said, 'Winter Soldier' doesn't make as much sense coming from Germany. Also, Widow and Bucky have a relationship in the comics, too, but, I suspect that that wont happen for a while in the CU - if ever.

[comicshorse]

[QUOTE=shadow_archmagi;17251640

I feel like Zola could've been handled better "Oh hi! You thought I was dead, but you were incorrect! I'm actually alive as an evil computer. Welp, that was fun. Dying now!" You'd think SHIELD would've given him a more modern setup than thousands of old timey tape computers.

[/QUOTE]

Yeah I'd lay heavy odds Zola isn't dead. You don't have to be a genius (which he is) to figure out backing yourself up somewhere else is a good idea. Hell Natasha even points out early on that you should always do that

[Kitten Champion]

1) The whole 'Project Insight' plan to begin with. We're talking about a multinational council, and we're supposed to believe that they seriously thought it was a good idea to put a system in place that could kill anybody in the world? We're seriously supposed to swallow this?

Not to sound too political here, but PRISM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program))and legalized drone attacks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drone_attacks_in_Pakistan)? Seriously, that's not only believable but absurdly so. Sure, they're hyperbolic since it's comics and they disguise it further with Hydra, but Project Insight's something a CIA or NSA would drool over... which was the point of the movie. This is the sort of power some want in the name of security, and to do so with the cold efficiency of automated weapons and risk-assessment algorithms.

[dehro]

And here I thought that SHIELD was supposed to be a secret organisation. How did they manage to get the political clout to even put Project insight on paper without being laughed out of town by every government that isn't the American one and wouldn't delegate such an ammount of power to any one nation or organisation?
The film was a lot of fun, but somewhat riddled with plot elements that were... Laughable at best.
Hydra's Plan for a new world order Quite simply doesn't make sense. Even if they believed in the ideology, it just couldn't work from a practical pov... Which deflates the tension a lot because it means that Hydra is composed mostly of muppets fallen of the stupid tree.
That a paranoid institution like SHIELD could be so thoroughly infiltrated at all levels without being ever detected is not really believable; even more so that the loyal agents could be so ineffective, once warned by Captain America.
http://th07.deviantart.net/fs70/150/f/2012/156/0/2/avengers_chibi___nick_fury_by_x_tangled_web_x-d52fb8b.png "I've had it with these mother****ing hydras in my mother****ing crew!!"

P.S. Fury's headstone had me laughing.

[Legato Endless]

And here I thought that SHIELD was supposed to be a secret organisation. How did they manage to get the political clout to even put Project insight on paper without being laughed out of town by every government that isn't the American one and wouldn't delegate such an ammount of power to any one nation or organisation?


Shield really isn't a secret organization anymore, and doesn't bother trying to be. They just do covert things. Agents of Shield shows them exercising their actions quite openly, though not explaining them. Like a good chunk of real life spy work in the age of information.


The film was a lot of fun, but somewhat riddled with plot elements that were... Laughable at best.
Hydra's Plan for a new world order Quite simply doesn't make sense. Even if they believed in the ideology, it just couldn't work from a practical pov... Which deflates the tension a lot because it means that Hydra is composed mostly of muppets fallen of the stupid tree.

To quote Zola from the first film, the sanity of the plan is irrelevant. All that matters is that they can do it. Maybe this wasn't the best execution, but fools in power going where angels fear to tread is pretty dramatic to me. Not all villains need to be competent to be frightening. An idiot with a hammer can still do a lot of damage.



That a paranoid institution like SHIELD could be so thoroughly infiltrated at all levels without being ever detected is not really believable; even more so that the loyal agents could be so ineffective, once warned by Captain America.

The length of infiltration is not perfectly realistic, but it's a comic book film. While hyperbolic, a cursory look at revealed intelligence history for the US shows some frankly unbelievable examples of infiltrations. If the people who managed Operation Snow White were able to place 5,000 agents in the United States government, I don't see why Hydra couldn't do something similar. The idea of a conspiracy that reaches all levels is artistic alliance. The audience would likely be disappointed in something more localized, probability be damned. While perhaps not the soul of verisimilitude, I don't think it's as silly as your implying.

[LaZodiac]

I want all of you thinking that Hydra's plan here was unpractical and silly, to remember the bomb plan. Where every bomb had the name of the city it was intended for written on it.

Hydra does the most comic-booky of all the villains in the CU. This is their MO.

[Kitten Champion]

And here I thought that SHIELD was supposed to be a secret organisation.

Why? They've operated openly in every movie they've been involved in. Not candidly -- they do clandestine work, sure, but that doesn't make them a secret organization. Hydra is a secret organization, for general contrast.


How did they manage to get the political clout to even put Project insight on paper without being laughed out of town by every government that isn't the American one and wouldn't delegate such an ammount of power to any one nation or organisation?


Maybe because they're facing catastrophic and potentially world-ending global crises with powers beyond the ken of Man? I'll admit the SHIELD requires a substantial amount of disbelief to suspend, it's formed with comic-logic of fulfilling narrative purposes wherever Marvel's authors may need it and intentionally skirts real-world issues and messy political complications by using a gestalt stand-in for the CIA/FBI/NSA/Interpol/UN Peacekeepers. However, this is a world where the threats are substantially bigger than our reality and that addressing them takes more resources - and conferred power - than you're accustomed to accepting makes a great deal of sense.


That a paranoid institution like SHIELD could be so thoroughly infiltrated at all levels without being ever detected is not really believable; even more so that the loyal agents could be so ineffective, once warned by Captain America.

Warning that anyone around you could potentially be a traitor aiming to kill you is less useful than you might think. Warning them once they were, in fact, already surrounded by heavily armed Hydra agents who were carrying out a coordinated plan established well ahead of time, even less so.

[Ramza00]

So let me get this straight, Hydra has developed an "algorithm" that can identify 20 million potential targets.

This "algorithm" hooks up to the internet and can track everything about you even private information.
This "algorithm" hooks up to satellites so you can instantly identify 750,000+ targets in the maryland area within less than a minute.
Besides satellites, they also have dna scanners (how is this supposed to work?) which can detect who you are from space and confirm your identity.


Why didn't they use this algorithm to detect Captain America after Captain America escaped the elevator and took down an aircraft fighter?

(Also how fast was the flight time from DC to the Indian Ocean to rescue the hostages? That is a trip of 9,000 miles more or less).

[Ramza00]

I was incredibly saddened when that Councilmember turned out to be Black Widow in disguise. I really wanted one of the senator hostages to just know kung fu because why wouldn't you, in that kind of universe?
I had the same though in the movie theater, I was like go Angela Merkel look alike!

[Dienekes]

So let me get this straight, Hydra has developed an "algorithm" that can identify 20 million potential targets.

This "algorithm" hooks up to the internet and can track everything about you even private information.
This "algorithm" hooks up to satellites so you can instantly identify 750,000+ targets in the maryland area within less than a minute.
Besides satellites, they also have dna scanners (how is this supposed to work?) which can detect who you are from space and confirm your identity.


Why didn't they use this algorithm to detect Captain America after Captain America escaped the elevator and took down an aircraft fighter?

(Also how fast was the flight time from DC to the Indian Ocean to rescue the hostages? That is a trip of 9,000 miles more or less).

DNA scanners were on the helicarriers, which weren't up and operational yet.

[dehro]

That's the other thing... Aside from the algorithm's applicability surviving decades of computer advancement and not end up as outdated as a floppy disk, They would want us to believe that it's actually possible to surgically target several tens of thousand People from just 3 positions and those positions not be nuked before they've done even half the intended damage.
And even should they succeed, Hydra purposedly aims at world domination, meaning their plans would be opposed by People across the globe, starting with SHIELD operatives who are spread even further than Hydra ones. The simple curvature of the earth and distances at play would make it so that by the time those 3 firing platforms are done with potential USA targets, every other nation would be up in arms and ready for them. (though I realize that the US-centric view of the world that Hollywood and Marvel-verse share is probably to blame for this... Like hydra's possible opposition outside Good ol'US of A is somehow negligible)
Then there's the fact that purposedly this operation is meant to target all possible opposition through misterious calculation, aiming those cannons towards People who could or would oppose Hydra because reasons. Didn't they think that killing the intended 20.000.000 People would instantly give Ten times that many plenty more reasons to oppose Hydra? Even a Ten year old would See the flaw in that Plan. They'd run out of bullets before running out of enemies. Might as Well load the cannons with silly-string. It would make their enemies less irritated.
These People are supposed to be the best and brightest in the criminal world, and despite a supposedly perfect track record at sowing instability and covertly murdering opposition, pissing off the entire world in one go acting openly is the best they can come up with and constitutes the apex of their plan?
Frankly, The clairvoyant sounds like a more dangerous threath than any of that, capable of doing much more damage too... As long as hydra's “masterplan" doesn't get in the way of getting things done. That is my other problem. This whole thing seems to be meant as a concerted effort across Aos and the movie, but this crackpot plan makes the entire season of the show completely pointless and irrelevant

[Eldan]

Are you missing the point of the character? Or do you not like the character to begin with?

Steve is holier-than-thou because he is. That was the whole point of Act I in the first movie. Steve is Superman, to Fury's Batman. Steve refuses to compromise and lives in a world of black and white, while Fury lives in a world of grey - and leaning on the black side, too. Why would anyone trade liberty for security? Don't people understand that if they just decided to be good people, we wouldn't need security in the first place?

You can either question Steve, say it's not for you and leave him to it (Natasha). You can argue with Steve (Fury), or you can follow Rogers to the ends of the earth because you believe in him (Falcon).

See, I don't think he is. He talks as if he were. But then we see him slaughtering his way across the landscape with no concern for anyone he meets. How many people did he kill from blunt trauma when he took that ship back in the first act? How many SHIELD people did he take down?
Which is also why it annoys me that his opponents are Nazis. "Nono, he can kill them and still be a good guy, they are Nazis!"

[Jayngfet]

See, I don't think he is. He talks as if he were. But then we see him slaughtering his way across the landscape with no concern for anyone he meets. How many people did he kill from blunt trauma when he took that ship back in the first act? How many SHIELD people did he take down?
Which is also why it annoys me that his opponents are Nazis. "Nono, he can kill them and still be a good guy, they are Nazis!"

Rodgers never lived under the illusion of a no-kill code. He joined the army expecting a gun in his hand and he uses a shield because it's more effective in most contexts. He doesn't give any of his allies crap for killing enemies in front of him because he knows that that's the reality of the situation: When you get into a gunfight, people die. It's an unfortunate reality, but it's one he's always been willing to live with by the very nature of his character. His beef with Fury and Natasha was never about their killing, it was their motives for doing so.

The people he kills are terrorists, fascists, and terror-facists. He isn't exactly losing much sleep over their deaths and neither is anyone else. Sometimes the best way to make the world a better place really is to take someone out of it. When the lives of presumably innocent people are on the line and every second counts, you don't really have time to think of a third option. This is something everyone at that tier of power except Batman has come to accept.

[Eldan]

Rodgers never lived under the illusion of a no-kill code. He joined the army expecting a gun in his hand and he uses a shield because it's more effective in most contexts. He doesn't give any of his allies crap for killing enemies in front of him because he knows that that's the reality of the situation: When you get into a gunfight, people die. It's an unfortunate reality, but it's one he's always been willing to live with by the very nature of his character. His beef with Fury and Natasha was never about their killing, it was their motives for doing so.

The people he kills are terrorists, fascists, and terror-facists. He isn't exactly losing much sleep over their deaths and neither is anyone else. Sometimes the best way to make the world a better place really is to take someone out of it. When the lives of presumably innocent people are on the line and every second counts, you don't really have time to think of a third option. This is something everyone at that tier of power except Batman has come to accept.

No, I see that. I fully accept it. But if he wants to go that way, he should just effing admit it. Instead, the movie is framing him as some kind of saint and the disconnect is just jarring and annoying.

[Jayngfet]

No, I see that. I fully accept it. But if he wants to go that way, he should just effing admit it. Instead, the movie is framing him as some kind of saint and the disconnect is just jarring and annoying.

...yeah, the thing about saints is that saints can also not use no-kill codes. There are more than a few saints with lengthy military histories. Through basically every time period and place, the act of killing has always been acknowledged as something even the best people may sometimes need to do.

I mean what else should have been done on the boat scene? If Rodgers was a minute or two slower, hostages would have been killed. If he was a second or two slower in the actual fight, someone could have shouted out and alerted the entire boat to his presence, putting people in danger. To do anything else would be to privilege the life of a terrorist over the life of one of his own people.

[dehro]

No, I see that. I fully accept it. But if he wants to go that way, he should just effing admit it. Instead, the movie is framing him as some kind of saint and the disconnect is just jarring and annoying.

not so much as a saint as like a soldier of another age... one who has a code of conduct but is still a soldier... think Druss the Legend sort of thing. in that, the movie does seem to do a good job

[Eldan]

Didn't for me. It just feels wrong to me to engage in this kind of hero worship about someone who, in the end, is just another soldier, but also likes to produce inspirational quotes.

Stark or Thor weren't any better, as people, but they also weren't treated as if they were.

[Cheesegear]

But then we see him slaughtering his way across the landscape with no concern for anyone he meets.

Hyperbole.
Steve kills because he is a solider. Fighting other soldiers. Who are trying to kill him, and, if not him, then other people. There are some very real world morals that go with that that we probably can't talk about on this forum. But, like I said before; Either you're missing the point, or you don't like the character in the first place.

Since I'm now certain it's the latter, fine. You don't identify with the character. Let's move on.

[Eldan]

Since I'm now certain it's the latter, fine. You don't identify with the character. Let's move on.

That, yeah. I think I said that, or at least meant to say that, from the beginning.

Anyway. Moving on is a good idea.

[Cheesegear]

Do we ever get an explanation for how Steve can accurately calculate vector, speed and angle of deflection, on the fly, under battlefield conditions?

[Eldan]

Heh. That damn shield. I just assume they accidentally made a piece of Asgardian magic. It's pretty much the most ridiculous piece of tech or magic I've seen in the entire MCU.

[dehro]

on a different note, am I the only one who had to restrain himself from going "Wheatooooonnnnnnnn!!!"
and shake my fist at the screen, when they got there?

[Eldan]

I was thinking it.

[dehro]

that and reading the headstone were the 2 funny moments in the movie, for me.

[Asheram]

3) Black Widow hacking the encryption with a freaking Macbook. Seriously, wtf.

There's an app for that.

[Legato Endless]

Do we ever get an explanation for how Steve can accurately calculate vector, speed and angle of deflection, on the fly, under battlefield conditions?

SCIENCE. I assumed there's an AI inside it that makes adjustments to best tactically shoot around the battlefield and return to him. Or its like Thor's hammer.

The inconsistent way it interacts with kinetic energy seems to imply magic.

[Archonic Energy]

There's an app for that.

No. no there isn't. if there is I'd like it please

[shadow_archmagi]

Oh yeah, that *was* one of my only beefs with the film was that the fight choreographers apparently forgot the whole "vibranium" element of the shield, which is supposed to make it negate force, right? But we see Cap take hits to the shield and get knocked around throughout the movie.

Heck, even Batroc kicks him across the room at one point.

[Cheesegear]

The inconsistent way it interacts with kinetic energy seems to imply magic.

It appears to mag-lock to Cap's back.

...Magnets.

[LaZodiac]

Do we ever get an explanation for how Steve can accurately calculate vector, speed and angle of deflection, on the fly, under battlefield conditions?

He's just that smart.

As for the shield itself, it's made of Vibranium, which is implied through various means to be a metal found in Asgard. So the shield is actually some Asgardian device, weather they knew it or not. Papa Stark's kinda great that way.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I thought Vibranium was supposed to be a natural, if extremely rare (at least outside of Wakanda), element. Or is that just comic-verse and not Cinematic Universe?

[Olinser]

He's just that smart.

As for the shield itself, it's made of Vibranium, which is implied through various means to be a metal found in Asgard. So the shield is actually some Asgardian device, weather they knew it or not. Papa Stark's kinda great that way.

Actually in the first movie Stark's father stated it was made of vibranium and didn't really elaborate any further on what exactly vibranium was or where they got it.

But I completely agree, they really flubbed the consistency with the shield.

Even disregarding the comic book information, in the first Captain America movie they straight up showed slugs hitting the shield and dropping straight down (NOT ricocheting). Then in the first Avenger movie he was able to take a dead-on hit from THOR'S FREAKING HAMMER without moving. But Batroc's foot throws him around?

[Cheesegear]

Then in the first Avenger movie he was able to take a dead-on hit from THOR'S FREAKING HAMMER without moving.

If you've seen the meme, that's actually kind of scary because Thor didn't know that that would happen. Thor had every intention of splattering Steve Rogers all over that forest.

[BRC]

No, I see that. I fully accept it. But if he wants to go that way, he should just effing admit it. Instead, the movie is framing him as some kind of saint and the disconnect is just jarring and annoying.

Not really.

In comic books "Superheroes Don't Kill" is ingrained pretty hard, to the point that being an exception (Like Punisher) is a major character trait.

But really, a strict "No-kill" policy is very hard to do when superheroing.

Think of how many thugs batman has knocked out.
Do you think none of them ever fell down and hit the curb at JUST the right angle to have their neck cracked?
Do you think no henchman ever got an artery sliced by falling glass when Batman crashed through a skylight?
Do you think nobody, when fleeing from the Batmobile, ever wrapped their car around a telephone pole?

It's hard to knock somebody unconscious without risking serious damage, yet Batman hands out concussions like candy.

Not to mention all the bat-explosives he uses.

But this is comic books, unless somebody is explicitly shown to be dead, they'll wake up a few hours later, groggy but fine.

And even then, nobody stays dead in Comics.



Alright, on the subject of the Movie, my biggest Quibble was that HYDRA was calling themselves HYDRA.

I get the chain of events: SHIELD is already going to be full of semi-amoral people who want Power and see the world as a chaotic place that needs protection from itself. That's the perfect breeding ground for a HYDRA style conspiracy.
However, I think they could have gotten a lot more mileage if they didn't go around CALLING themselves HYDRA.

I mean, what's the sales pitch there. "Hey, Agent Bob, you're morally flexible, what do you think about The World?" "I think it would destroy itself if we were not keeping an eye on it" "Perfect! Want to join a secret conspiracy that is going to use SHIELD's resources to take over the world, killing anybody we see as a threat to global stability?" "Sounds perfect! What do you call yourselves?" "Hydra!" "Wait, wasn't that the organization that was so evil the Nazis kicked them out?" "Yup!" "Golly Gee! Sign me up! Hail Hydra!"

It's a little hard to by the "Well-intentioned extremist" narrative when they're all going around shouting "HAIL HYDRA!"
If there was ever a time for a rebranding, that was it.

[Metahuman1]

To be fair, in the Avengers the hit form Thor's Hammer was a downward stroke while he was blocking upwards and braced in a crouch/kneeling position against the ground, and left a hole in the ground with him laying down if I remember right.


I'm pretty sure they established somewhere that depending on the angles involved he can ricochet things that hit the shield. I know they showed him doing it in the battle of New York at the end of the Avengers with Ironman's repulser's and the Chitari weapons, if not when Fighting Loki earlier in the movie or with any bullets in the first cap Movie.


Also, who else was expecting Barton to make a smaller appearance in the shield facility or in Fury's little hide out?

Or Stark to get in there somewhere and make some kind of comment? Maybe pissed off at the overall reveal of what Hydra was doing and that he got duped into helping them make super weapons? (The repulsers replacing the Turbines on the new Heli-carriers so they once up in the air they would never have to land?)

[erikun]

Cap also hit people with bullet-ricochets against the chain gun on the highway, so his shield in the movies apparently ignores the zero-force policy as needed.

Then again, I'm watching a comic book movie. There is a point where, at least for me, I am willing to just ignore the physics of the whole thing.

[Ramza00]

So thumbs up or thumbs down they brought back Senator Stern (he is the prick senator from Iron Man 2)?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Not really.

In comic books "Superheroes Don't Kill" is ingrained pretty hard, to the point that being an exception (Like Punisher) is a major character trait.

But really, a strict "No-kill" policy is very hard to do when superheroing.

Think of how many thugs batman has knocked out.
Do you think none of them ever fell down and hit the curb at JUST the right angle to have their neck cracked?
Do you think no henchman ever got an artery sliced by falling glass when Batman crashed through a skylight?
Do you think nobody, when fleeing from the Batmobile, ever wrapped their car around a telephone pole?

It's hard to knock somebody unconscious without risking serious damage, yet Batman hands out concussions like candy.

Not to mention all the bat-explosives he uses.

But this is comic books, unless somebody is explicitly shown to be dead, they'll wake up a few hours later, groggy but fine.

And even then, nobody stays dead in Comics.



Alright, on the subject of the Movie, my biggest Quibble was that HYDRA was calling themselves HYDRA.

I get the chain of events: SHIELD is already going to be full of semi-amoral people who want Power and see the world as a chaotic place that needs protection from itself. That's the perfect breeding ground for a HYDRA style conspiracy.
However, I think they could have gotten a lot more mileage if they didn't go around CALLING themselves HYDRA.

I mean, what's the sales pitch there. "Hey, Agent Bob, you're morally flexible, what do you think about The World?" "I think it would destroy itself if we were not keeping an eye on it" "Perfect! Want to join a secret conspiracy that is going to use SHIELD's resources to take over the world, killing anybody we see as a threat to global stability?" "Sounds perfect! What do you call yourselves?" "Hydra!" "Wait, wasn't that the organization that was so evil the Nazis kicked them out?" "Yup!" "Golly Gee! Sign me up! Hail Hydra!"

It's a little hard to by the "Well-intentioned extremist" narrative when they're all going around shouting "HAIL HYDRA!"
If there was ever a time for a rebranding, that was it.


I agree with almost all your points except that one, none of the HYDRA people we see in the movie could be constructed as "Well-intentioned extremist"; Pierce could be argued to be one, but he wasn't really shouting "Hail HYDRA" or at least I can't remember him and his speech to the Winter Soldier about "shaping the century" and stuff made me thing that while he originally joined for "decent" reasons at some point he actually began to buy into HYDRA's crap.

Besides didn't HYDRA left the Nazi's on the Red Skull's order because he was done with them?

[Eldan]

Think of how many thugs batman has knocked out.
Do you think none of them ever fell down and hit the curb at JUST the right angle to have their neck cracked?
Do you think no henchman ever got an artery sliced by falling glass when Batman crashed through a skylight?
Do you think nobody, when fleeing from the Batmobile, ever wrapped their car around a telephone pole?


Fully aware of that. It's exactly what I mean, though. Batman doesn't get a slow-motion drowning scene with piano music, he doesn't make a long speech about freedom that everyone in the movie loves and he doesn't get a "greatest hero in the world" museum exhibit. He gets the police chasing him.

[BRC]

I agree with almost all your points except that one, none of the HYDRA people we see in the movie could be constructed as "Well-intentioned extremist"; Pierce could be argued to be one, but he wasn't really shouting "Hail HYDRA" or at least I can't remember him and his speech to the Winter Soldier about "shaping the century" and stuff made me thing that while he originally joined for "decent" reasons at some point he actually began to buy into HYDRA's crap.

Besides didn't HYDRA left the Nazi's on the Red Skull's order because he was done with them?

Pierce's last words were "Hail Hydra" as he lay dying in the conference room.

And that was kind of my point.
Had they NOT had the villains be openly Hydra, it would have been much stronger, especially how they played with the idea that Nick Fury and Widow were only barely on Cap's side of the fence here. Fury wanted to launch the Deathicarriers until he learned he wouldn't be the one controlling them. And with how SHIELD was dismantled at the end.

The message being sent seemed to be that SHIELD was a broken institution, one built on paranoia and power, such that it was only a matter of time before something like this happened again.
I can see the conspiracy growing by being well-intentioned extremists, taking the basic tenants of SHIELD and going too far with them, with it's members thinking of themselves as SHIELD agents just doing what needs to be done,.
I can't see the conspiracy growing by calling themselves an evil organization designed to corrupt and subvert SHIELD. Considering its recruiting pool is going to be SHIELD agents, who we can assume agree with the principles of SHIELD as an organization.

[Archonic Energy]

Oh yeah, that *was* one of my only beefs with the film was that the fight choreographers apparently forgot the whole "vibranium" element of the shield, which is supposed to make it negate force, right? But we see Cap take hits to the shield and get knocked around throughout the movie.

Heck, even Batroc kicks him across the room at one point.

agreed, the best thing Cap could do when he jumped out of that window was curl up beside the shield and let the shield absorb the impact.

which he did.

[Reverent-One]

Fully aware of that. It's exactly what I mean, though. Batman doesn't get a slow-motion drowning scene with piano music, he doesn't make a long speech about freedom that everyone in the movie loves and he doesn't get a "greatest hero in the world" museum exhibit. He gets the police chasing him.

Actually, he normally gets the police coming to him for help. The police only come after him when he sacrificially takes the blame for murdering people that he didn't.

[BRC]

Actually, he normally gets the police coming to him for help. The police only come after him when he sacrificially takes the blame for murdering people that he didn't.

Plus, Cap is a "Heroic Soldier" which is a totally different archetype than Batman's "Heroic Vigilante".

The Vigilante is a criminal, but he is BETTER than other criminals because of the code that informs his methods. If he crosses the line, he becomes Evil.

The Soldier is not a criminal, his violence is justified by his cause, not his methods (Although his methods can become evil). The Heroic Soldier is trusted to only inflict violence for good.
If Batman kills somebody, it means he's crossed the line.
If Cap kills somebody, it means they deserved to be killed.

Culturally, we celebrate Soldiers, we couldn't do that without a deeply ingrained sense of justifiable homicide.

[Dienekes]

Fully aware of that. It's exactly what I mean, though. Batman doesn't get a slow-motion drowning scene with piano music, he doesn't make a long speech about freedom that everyone in the movie loves and he doesn't get a "greatest hero in the world" museum exhibit. He gets the police chasing him.

Why would Captain America be against killing? He's a soldier. He is just a very talented one who openly saved the world in 1945. Of course he has an exhibit dedicated to him.
He also has a lot of morals and will always argue for what he feels is right. I don't see how one negates the others. Especially when he is killing pirates and terrorists, as he is supposed to do.

Now perhaps the movie didn't sell you on how good a guy he is. But that was more in the first. He was the guy willing to sacrifice himself so that a bunch of *******s wouldn't take a grenade, constantly tries to be friendly and helpful to everyone. I don't think he has a bad word to say about anyone other than the Red Skull.

While Stark is out in part to feed his ego and clean up his own messes, Banner doesn't really have complete control of the destructive monster he becomes, and Thor just sort of pops in causes a ton of destruction then leaves, Cap is the guy who's just there trying to save everyone and be an example of what a good man can do. He inspires and uses the truth to try and stop death destruction and to get the spies of his world to examine what their loyalties are and the problems with following orders because a higher up tells them it's right.

Is it cheesy? Hell yes. But that's the point of the character.

[Metahuman1]

I agree with almost all your points except that one, none of the HYDRA people we see in the movie could be constructed as "Well-intentioned extremist"; Pierce could be argued to be one, but he wasn't really shouting "Hail HYDRA" or at least I can't remember him and his speech to the Winter Soldier about "shaping the century" and stuff made me thing that while he originally joined for "decent" reasons at some point he actually began to buy into HYDRA's crap.

Besides didn't HYDRA left the Nazi's on the Red Skull's order because he was done with them?

Yes, they did. He used the Nazi's, then broke from them when using them stopped being viable for him.

And yes, the implication I got was that in a lot of there cases, they stopped being "well intentioned" before this point, quite of few of them having done so well before this point.

And i wouldn't be surprised to learn, in a future movie or TV ep, that not all of them were actively Hydra, they just happened to agree with what Hydra wanted to do, preemptively kill anyone and everyone that had even a half chance of becoming a threat to them. I also wouldn't be overly surprised to learn that Hydra wasn't the only faction in Shield that should not have been there, but explaining that might involve spoiling some other things.



Edit: Also, why are we assuming every time Cap got in a fight in this movie he killed everyone he swung at? Cause I really feel like that's the vibe some people are giving off. I'll give you the final battle he killed. Mostly indirectly, he killed. Though in fairness it was literally tens of millions of lives, many of them good and/or innocent people who were being shot cause they voted for the wrong guy in an election or insulted one too many connected politicians on facebook and twitter, and some of whom like Stark and Banner were people he considers team mates and hero's, and the subjugation of potentially the entire human race of this insane plan DID somehow work.

Prior too that, we saw him hit people, we saw him knock people out, we saw him give bruises and contusions and even broken bones. We even saw him let some people take bullet wounds, but we also saw Widow and Fury and Falcon and a number of Agents on both sides survive getting stabbed, beaten, shot and so on and it wasn't even the people who have super powers. Can we admit it's entirely possible he didn't actually kill anyone until the final battle?

[Karoht]

1) The whole 'Project Insight' plan to begin with. We're talking about a multinational council, and we're supposed to believe that they seriously thought it was a good idea to put a system in place that could kill anybody in the world? We're seriously supposed to swallow this?You seem to have missed the massive government conspiracy by HYDRA. You also seemed to miss the fact that they were being lied to by Pierce.


3) Black Widow hacking the encryption with a freaking Macbook. Seriously, wtf. In addition, their response to the tracking beacon. People planning what they were planning would have just had a drone/plane put a missile into the building. They were certainly willing to sacrifice Zolaf, a valuable asset, a little later on, and they certainly didn't care about collateral damage when they were blasting at Captain/Black Widow on the freeway. Their plan literally requires the death of millions of people, why would they choke over a few civilians at that particular time? A cover story wouldn't even be that hard to think up.She used a SHIELD designed script/ which does traces. Chances are good they weren't really expecting a SHIELD trace which is probably why it worked.
As for the mall, why drop a bomb on the heavily populated mall if you know they are going to go to the source, which is an abandoned asset? Sure, send agents to the mall to try and apprehend, but all that does is run the rats to the trap even faster.


4) Black Widow's sanctimonious 'you need me' speech at the end. She should have gotten tossed in prison. Seriously, they DON'T need you. You're an agent of questionable loyalty with abilities that aren't even that great when compared to plenty of other much less shady and more loyal agents. Also, considering your entire life just got uploaded onto the internet, your ability to act as a covert agent has been completely compromised. If Captain America had said it, I'd buy that they'd just let him walk away, but most definitely not Black Widow.Remember Operation Paperclip? The part where they recruited former Nazi/Soviets of value? I thought it was her referencing that. I'm pretty sure a similar speech was used by at least one Nazi war criminal who sold secrets to the Allies. Also, how do you think Black Widow got to work for SHIELD in the first place. The very same program, most likely. As much as she was talking Avengers talk, I saw that scene as a throwback. A case of history repeats itself. Which would be even more ironic if, after all of what just happened, she's a deep cover agent for Russia. Now that last bit seems unlikely, but consider that she is extremely good at being two-faced. She's one of the best spies/assassins in the world.

[BRC]

You seem to have missed the massive government conspiracy by HYDRA. You also seemed to miss the fact that they were being lied to by Pierce.


I think the Council knew what Operation Insight was,

that said, consider, in the last few years

1) Aliens have invaded earth multiple times

2) A conspiracy of regenerating super soldiers kidnapped the head of state

3) Two insane billionaires with robot suits had a pitched battle

Plus who knows how many other things SHIELD put down off-camera.

The idea of having a trio of floating death platforms probably seemed like a decent idea, especially after they lost the Tesseract, and with their current disaster plan being "Hope the Avengers show up to save the day"

[Jayngfet]

I think the Council knew what Operation Insight was,

that said, consider, in the last few years

1) Aliens have invaded earth multiple times

2) A conspiracy of regenerating super soldiers kidnapped the head of state

3) Two insane billionaires with robot suits had a pitched battle

Plus who knows how many other things SHIELD put down off-camera.

The idea of having a trio of floating death platforms probably seemed like a decent idea, especially after they lost the Tesseract, and with their current disaster plan being "Hope the Avengers show up to save the day"

That wasn't their intention though, is the thing. Fury made it clear they were going to aim that thing at human targets primarily, and even then primarily terrorists hiding in holes in the ground.

We saw Falcon maneuver around multiple helicarriers worth of guns and there is no way he's as fast or agile as Iron Man. If someone like Loki came calling again he could just illusion his way through the defenses. Iron Monger or someone that big could probably tank a few hits and keep going.

I mean yeah, it's good for cleaning up cheap mooks like Chitauri grunts, but that's about it and it's not their primary purpose. Their purpose is a pre-emptive strike on anyone without powers who could be a threat, no matter if it's Fury or Hydra.

[BRC]

That wasn't their intention though, is the thing. Fury made it clear they were going to aim that thing at human targets primarily, and even then primarily terrorists hiding in holes in the ground.

We saw Falcon maneuver around multiple helicarriers worth of guns and there is no way he's as fast or agile as Iron Man. If someone like Loki came calling again he could just illusion his way through the defenses. Iron Monger or someone that big could probably tank a few hits and keep going.

I mean yeah, it's good for cleaning up cheap mooks like Chitauri grunts, but that's about it and it's not their primary purpose. Their purpose is a pre-emptive strike on anyone without powers who could be a threat, no matter if it's Fury or Hydra.

And what makes you think the WSC wouldn't want that. These are the guys who told Fury to build superweapons with the Tesseract, and wanted to nuke New York.

The WSC probably assumed their fingers would be the ones on the trigger.

[Grommen]

As someone who has not read tons of comic books about all these marvel characters I have enjoyed the movies. Mainly because I don't have the years of "This guy becomes this, and that one is this person, and that happen in universe X2304."

So most of what they are doing is quite consistent, and a good story.

So I've been pointing out to friends of mine, who do have decades of knowledge on SHIELD and the characters, that SHIELD is not the good guy. And that they had a lot in common with....Well #@$@'ing Nazi's.

And damm. Called it.

So excellent over all vision between several films, and the TV show.

My only nit-pic is with the shield. They said it absorbs energy waves. Sound is a wave. So. When it dings off of bad guys skulls, it does not go "Ding". Even though movies say it has to go "Ding, or thunk, or whatever" it just bugs me. Not enough that it ruined anything. I just think it a bit funny.

The fact that in some of the shots the Cap manages to completely hide his 6+ foot tall frame behind said shield, or the fact that it defies laws of physics, and can bounce off things (thuss needing kinetic energy to rebound). That's all good. No problems detected here. All systems normal. Physics be dammed this is Comic books physics after all. Lets do this!

Some peoples problem with Widow tracing the origin of the program back on a Mac book.

She used a trace route program (lets assume she did not write it but launched it from another USB drive). Given SHIELDS level of competence with computer software, and the fact that "sniffer" programs have been around for a long time. That was about the only part of the computer hacking that I didn't question.

Secondly. Zoloft (or what ever that computer's name is). Wanted to be found. They are comic book villains, and needed to monologue the evil plot so that the heroes could go stop it. Then they made a half hearted attempt to kill the heroes. That is how it goes when your an evil mastermind.

[LaZodiac]

But Batroc's foot throws him around?

To be fair, Batroc Za Lepair is the second greatest frenchmen to ever live. He's just that good. Also the other, more sensible explanation you've already been provided with.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I'm going to bite it... who is the greatest Frenchmen to ever live?

[Metahuman1]

Secondly. Zoloft (or what ever that computer's name is). Wanted to be found. They are comic book villains, and needed to monologue the evil plot so that the heroes could go stop it. Then they made a half hearted attempt to kill the heroes. That is how it goes when your an evil mastermind.

Besides, who's willing to bet that Zoloft isn't dead and that the lions share of what was in that room except the drive port was just for show? Hydra, for all that there uber secret society, does seem to have a flair for the dramatic and theatrical that way, don't they?

[The Glyphstone]

Saw it, enjoyed it. Lots of funny lines, good platonic chemistry between Evans and Johannsen. I'd never heard of Falcon before, so his introduction as the B-hero sidekick was very well done. Fight choreography was excellent, though I saw the 'Fury fakes his death' coming a million miles away.

The plot was just ridiculous enough for me to believe HYDRA would do it, though the effortless infiltration of HYDRA into every level of SHIELD's command structure was pushing it...you'd think an organization like that would have better protocols for filtering out double agents among their recruits.

Where I think it really fell flat was the villains - too many bad guys spoil the plot. Dr. Zoloft was a nice touch on how primitive 1970's-era computers were and a callback to the first movie, but squandered by being killed off 5 minutes after they introduced him. The Secretary of Defense was so transparently evil from his first few scenes that the 'reveal' was kind of a letdown. French Mercenary Dude was utterly forgettable, for someone who's apparently a big part of Cap's villain gallery. I'm not even sure who the soldier-dude Falcon fought in the office was, just French Mercenary Dude 2.0. And the titular Winter Soldier was terribly underutilized and underemphasized for his supposed role. Also, it really bugged me that after his 'reveal', he just stopped bothering with the mask.

[Metahuman1]

I'm 95% sure that the guy Falcon fought in the office was being set up to be Crossbones, another major member of Caps Rouges Gallery.

[Dienekes]

French Mercenary Dude was utterly forgettable, for someone who's apparently a big part of Cap's villain gallery. I'm not even sure who the soldier-dude Falcon fought in the office was, just French Mercenary Dude 2.0. And the titular Winter Soldier was terribly underutilized and underemphasized for his supposed role. Also, it really bugged me that after his 'reveal', he just stopped bothering with the mask.

Amusingly, French Mercenary Dude's role in the comics basically is showing up, getting tossed around by Cap as a brief distraction for whoever the real villain is. So he played the part well. It's just that the comic counterpart sells it entirely through his outrageous personality, which was nonexistent in the movie.


I'm 95% sure that the guy Falcon fought in the office was being set up to be Crossbones, another major member of Caps Rouges Gallery.

Yes, they call him Rumlow a few times, he's Red Skulls right hand man and assassin. I figure they're going to be using him later, since they show him surviving and scarred. But yes, he kind of served the same purpose as Winter Soldier in the criminal plot.

[Karoht]

Cap's rogues gallery is mostly filled with other soldiers, spies, assassins, and mercenaries. Batroc and Rumlow (Crossbones) fall into mercenary category. Most of the list is 'dudes with guns and hand to hand training' really. Batroc's big thing is that he's in peak human physique, and really good at... jumping. Seriously. Jumping. Truthfully, I'm glad they didn't bother making a big deal out of him. However, the actor playing Batroc would have made a better Crossbones IMO. Rumlow was waaay too small.

[Dragonexx]

I mean yeah, it's good for cleaning up cheap mooks like Chitauri grunts, but that's about it and it's not their primary purpose. Their purpose is a pre-emptive strike on anyone without powers who could be a threat, no matter if it's Fury or Hydra.

Except they they literally namedropped Dr. Strange, the patron saint of "I could solve this with a wave of my hand" as one of the targets.

Also, as to the stupidity of their plan? HYDRA is arrogant as ****. They state outright that when they attempted to take over the world the first time, they had NO IDEA that people might actually disagree with them.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I think that a lot of people who are claiming that S.H.I.E.L.D should have realized that HYDRA was infiltrating them are forgetting something really important, HYDRA has been inside S.H.I.E.L.D. from the very start, Zola himself said it, HYDRA didn't infiltrate S.H.I.E.L.D, it regrew inside it.

[Sith_Happens]

I was incredibly saddened when that Councilmember turned out to be Black Widow in disguise. I really wanted one of the senator hostages to just know kung fu because why wouldn't you, in that kind of universe?

Seconding this. As soon as she suddenly starting kicking everyone's butt I was thinking "Oh my gosh, I can't wait for the explanation of this." And then the explanation is "Because it's actually Black Widow.":smallfrown:


I feel like Zola could've been handled better "Oh hi! You thought I was dead, but you were incorrect! I'm actually alive as an evil computer. Welp, that was fun. Dying now!" You'd think SHIELD would've given him a more modern setup than thousands of old timey tape computers.

There's no way he isn't backed up out the wazoo. As for the outdated hardware, that's because he uploaded himself back when that was what they had.


I like to imagine a bunch of HYDRA goons rolling up to assassinate Clint, and him just shooting them all, and then spending the rest of the movie trying to figure out what's happening. "Cap? Natasha? You want to tell me what's up with all of this? Fury? Coulson? Anyone?"

Yeah, I feel like Hawkeye should really have been in this movie.


Do we ever get an explanation for how Steve can accurately calculate vector, speed and angle of deflection, on the fly, under battlefield conditions?

Same way you can tell where a ball is going to land without actually evaluating a quadratic expression in your head, but more so.

[Karoht]

I think that a lot of people who are claiming that S.H.I.E.L.D should have realized that HYDRA was infiltrating them are forgetting something really important, HYDRA has been inside S.H.I.E.L.D. from the very start, Zola himself said it, HYDRA didn't infiltrate S.H.I.E.L.D, it regrew inside it.
Remember the blonde that tries to kiss Cap in the first film? Back in the SSR headquarters? And Peggy Carter sort of interrupts that?
It's been suggested by a few fans that she was/is a HYDRA agent.

[huttj509]

Yeah, I feel like Hawkeye should really have been in this movie.


I have this image of Hawkeye, groggy eyed, obviously just out of bed having had a nasty flu, checking his phone.

"You have 98 new messages."

[LaZodiac]

I'm going to bite it... who is the greatest Frenchmen to ever live?

Jean Pierre Polnareff, the greatest frenchmen who ever lived. (http://www.fightersgeneration.com/characters3/polnarefchariot.jpg)

[Karoht]

Anyone notice the necklace Natasha was wearing?
An arrow.

I had to squint to see it, but there it was. I thought that was quite adorable.

[Sith_Happens]

Jean Pierre Polnareff, the greatest frenchmen who ever lived. (http://www.fightersgeneration.com/characters3/polnarefchariot.jpg)

Let me guess: JoJo's Bizarre Adventure.

[Dragonexx]

I have this image of Hawkeye, groggy eyed, obviously just out of bed having had a nasty flu, checking his phone.

"You have 98 new messages."

Considering how crazy Selvig was going in Thor 2, perhaps this isn't far off the mark.

[LaZodiac]

Let me guess: JoJo's Bizarre Adventure.

Ding ding ding, we have a winner.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Remember the blonde that tries to kiss Cap in the first film? Back in the SSR headquarters? And Peggy Carter sort of interrupts that?
It's been suggested by a few fans that she was/is a HYDRA agent.

Is there any clue to this besides the HYDRA assassin who killed Eskrine? And to be fair that was the "regular" Army, IIRC S.H.I.E.L.D. wasn't founded properly until the war ended.


Ding ding ding, we have a winner.

I have to start Jojo's one of these days.

[Ramza00]

Besides, who's willing to bet that Zoloft isn't dead and that the lions share of what was in that room except the drive port was just for show? Hydra, for all that there uber secret society, does seem to have a flair for the dramatic and theatrical that way, don't they?

Zoloft was aware that he was bait, meaning he has communications with the outside (either 1) He was told it was a trap and that he needed to stall or 2) He asked for the missile) In either cases if he has radio communications/modem/etc he had a way to download himself into another network the only question was did he have enough time to do so.

[comicshorse]

Cap's rogues gallery is mostly filled with other soldiers, spies, assassins, and mercenaries. Batroc and Rumlow (Crossbones) fall into mercenary category. Most of the list is 'dudes with guns and hand to hand training' really. Batroc's big thing is that he's in peak human physique, and really good at... jumping. Seriously. Jumping.

Batroc's also a world class martial artist, favouring Savate

[Dragonexx]

Zoloft was aware that he was bait, meaning he has communications with the outside (either 1) He was told it was a trap and that he needed to stall or 2) He asked for the missile) In either cases if he has radio communications/modem/etc he had a way to download himself into another network the only question was did he have enough time to do so.

Most likely. Also, Avengers 2 is going to be about Ultron (built by Tony Stark for some reason), and I'm willing to bet that Arnem Zola will have something to do with what makes it go rogue. Maybe he uploads himself into Ultrons body. Maybe he influences the programming to implant his genocidal plans into it.

[pikeamus]

Cap's rogues gallery is mostly filled with other soldiers, spies, assassins, and mercenaries. Batroc and Rumlow (Crossbones) fall into mercenary category. Most of the list is 'dudes with guns and hand to hand training' really. Batroc's big thing is that he's in peak human physique, and really good at... jumping. Seriously. Jumping. Truthfully, I'm glad they didn't bother making a big deal out of him. However, the actor playing Batroc would have made a better Crossbones IMO. Rumlow was waaay too small.

He's not really an actor, so would probably have stood out a bit much in the bigger role.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_St-Pierre

I do hope he returns though. George appears to have had enough of fighting for a living, and I like the idea of my favourite martial artist taking part in the best comic book movies around.

[Karoht]

Is there any clue to this besides the HYDRA assassin who killed Eskrine? And to be fair that was the "regular" Army, IIRC S.H.I.E.L.D. wasn't founded properly until the war ended.
She was in the SSR, SHIELD basically formed from that division directly.
As for the gal, the clues are subtle. She has a boyfriend who Cap rescued, suddenly tries to get touchy feely with Cap? Not so plausible.
One fan theory is that she tried to poison him, his system said "Super Soldier Formula, DILIGAF?" and she aborted the mission upon a combination of this realization and Agent Peggy Carter interrupting them.
For whatever reason the actress is specifically named on the wiki article. Odd thing for a minor role.

Finally, someone pointed out that the actress (Natalie Dormer) looks rather a lot like the actress chosen to play Viper (Svetlana Khodchenkova) in The Wolverine. Viper AKA Madame HYDRA. Madame HYDRA also appears in the video game version of the film.

It's a stretch, I grant you, but not implausible.

[Thialfi]

She was in the SSR, SHIELD basically formed from that division directly.
As for the gal, the clues are subtle. She has a boyfriend who Cap rescued, suddenly tries to get touchy feely with Cap? Not so plausible.
One fan theory is that she tried to poison him, his system said "Super Soldier Formula, DILIGAF?" and she aborted the mission upon a combination of this realization and Agent Peggy Carter interrupting them.
For whatever reason the actress is specifically named on the wiki article. Odd thing for a minor role.

Finally, someone pointed out that the actress (Natalie Dormer) looks rather a lot like the actress chosen to play Viper (Svetlana Khodchenkova) in The Wolverine. Viper AKA Madame HYDRA. Madame HYDRA also appears in the video game version of the film.

It's a stretch, I grant you, but not implausible.


She's also Margaery Tyrell, so I wouldn't put anything past her.

[The Glyphstone]

And John Practice killed Mozart.

[Karoht]

She's also Margaery Tyrell, so I wouldn't put anything past her.Game of Thrones reference. Had to google it. Not sure the significance but I take it she's not a nice character?

Perhaps they had something bigger planed with this lady, then "The Wolverine" used Viper so Fox has/had the rights to her.

There is likely no way to verify the theory that this character was something more than she seemed. But given the implication that HYDRA was imbeded in SHIELD at an early point in SHIELD's development, it seems quite plausible that the infiltration went all the way back to SHIELD's birth, which has at least something to do with the SSR division. If HYDRA could get someone into one of the most top secret offices of the war (at least, according to the fiction), it stands to reason that perhaps many of SHIELD's original crew were in fact HYDRA plants.

TL:DR-HYDRA was there from the start. Zola said so, Operation Paperclip was a thing (seriously, google it), and we have a potential HYDRA spy/assassin in the SSR office itself.


I fully expect in Cap3, Nick Fury is going to take us on a magical journey, likely giving us most of SHIELD history in a quick exposition dump/montage, likely starting from hunting War Criminals after WWII.

[Olinser]

She was in the SSR, SHIELD basically formed from that division directly.
As for the gal, the clues are subtle. She has a boyfriend who Cap rescued, suddenly tries to get touchy feely with Cap? Not so plausible.
One fan theory is that she tried to poison him, his system said "Super Soldier Formula, DILIGAF?" and she aborted the mission upon a combination of this realization and Agent Peggy Carter interrupting them.
For whatever reason the actress is specifically named on the wiki article. Odd thing for a minor role.

Finally, someone pointed out that the actress (Natalie Dormer) looks rather a lot like the actress chosen to play Viper (Svetlana Khodchenkova) in The Wolverine. Viper AKA Madame HYDRA. Madame HYDRA also appears in the video game version of the film.

It's a stretch, I grant you, but not implausible.

Marvel inserted passing references to a number of other heroes/villains/items that have yet to materialize. A number of them are probably never going to show up. Here are a few, some I noticed, some my friends noticed:

In the original Captain America, when they're at the 'future' expo, one of the exhibits is the original Human Torch costume.

In the beginning of Incredible Hulk the documents at the start mention Rick Jones - who is the A-Bomb.

In Incredible Hulk Leonard Samson appeared - in the comic books he was actually exposed to gamma radiation and became Doc Samson.

Also in Incredible Hulk, the 'friend' that got mutated by Hulk's blood was set up to be The Leader, another villain.

In the first Iron Man, everybody knew Rhodes was going to eventually be War Machine, but just not in that movie.

In Avengers Stark tries to avoid Coulson by claiming he has reached the 'Life Model Decoy' of Tony Stark (comic book Fury has an endless supply of those things)

Steven Strange showed up on the target list for Insight.

Rumlow has been set up to be Crossbones.

In the post-credits stinger, Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch showed up (even though they weren't named as such).

In Iron Man 2, the map you can see in the background has a couple obvious spots - Wakanda (Black Panther), and out in the middle of the ocean (probably Namor/Namorita).


Those are just off the top of my head.

[Karoht]

Marvel inserted passing references to a number of other heroes/villains/items that have yet to materialize. Here are a few, some I noticed, some my friends noticed:
~snip~
Setups
~snip~
Those are just off the top of my head.
MovieBob dissected the Guardians of the Galaxy trailer, looks like rather a lot of things being set up there, not just for that film either.

I love how that trailer makes fun of Starlord's name. And the use of Tom Jones.

[Pex]

Captain America is a soldier. Soldiers kill. He fired a gun in the first Captain America movie. He fired a machine gun in The Avengers. Comment was made at the time by the director that it was on purpose Captain America was shown using a gun because he is a soldier.

[GeekGirl]

Marve
*Stuff*
Those are just off the top of my head.

They also targeted the Baxter building in the helicarrier scene.

[lt_murgen]

I have this image of Hawkeye, groggy eyed, obviously just out of bed having had a nasty flu, checking his phone.

"You have 98 new messages."

I thought it would make a good "agents of shield" episode, set during all these events. Hawkeye teams with Coulson to hunt down Deathlok, convienently keeping them out of the way for the events of the movie.

[Metahuman1]

I'd settle for him being there for five minutes and mentioning he was just getting back from a mission to south America or somewhere that fury sent him on just before the movie started, and now that he was back it was nice to see Coulson and everything but he REALLY needed to find Natasha and find out the details of what the hell happened when he left town for half a week.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I'd settle for him being there for five minutes and mentioning he was just getting back from a mission to south America or somewhere that fury sent him on just before the movie started, and now that he was back it was nice to see Coulson and everything but he REALLY needed to find Natasha and find out the details of what the hell happened when he left town for half a week.

He would only need to check Twitter :smallbiggrin:, I mean it was trending within minutes if not seconds of Natasha leaking everything.

[Metahuman1]

Yes, that tells him that it's there, that doesn't give him a proper, in context blow by blow of the whole affair, and knowing Barton, he's paranoid enough that unless he get's confirmation from certain sources he values and trusts more then Twitter, he won't buy it, or at least buy it completely.


That said, a thought occurs to me. Why, if Hydra was working Shield for so long, did it take Shield as long as it did to start messing with the cube? Hydra knew a fair bit about it before shield started experimenting, Zola knew it first hand. What was the delay?

[SeeDarkly_X]

That said, a thought occurs to me. Why, if Hydra was working Shield for so long, did it take Shield as long as it did to start messing with the cube? Hydra knew a fair bit about it before shield started experimenting, Zola knew it first hand. What was the delay?

Being present inside S.H.E.I.L.D. doesn't necessarily mean "present in all aspects."
As we see once the Captain "takes the mic" at the Triskelion, there are MANY S.H.E.I.L.D. loyalists. Fury, the director, also clearly a loyalist. Even though it was Fury who brought Pierce in to the fold for his role after all... not even someone working for Hydra.
Clearly no one there is infallible, even if they are a bad-ass.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Yes, that tells him that it's there, that doesn't give him a proper, in context blow by blow of the whole affair, and knowing Barton, he's paranoid enough that unless he get's confirmation from certain sources he values and trusts more then Twitter, he won't buy it, or at least buy it completely.


That said, a thought occurs to me. Why, if Hydra was working Shield for so long, did it take Shield as long as it did to start messing with the cube? Hydra knew a fair bit about it before shield started experimenting, Zola knew it first hand. What was the delay?


:smallfrown: it was a joke.... was it that bad?

[Kd7sov]

That said, a thought occurs to me. Why, if Hydra was working Shield for so long, did it take Shield as long as it did to start messing with the cube? Hydra knew a fair bit about it before shield started experimenting, Zola knew it first hand. What was the delay?

I thought they only found the cube shortly before they found the Captain. And we don't know how long they were working with it before Loki showed up.

[HalfTangible]

My question is this: Why did the winter soldier use soviet-made, non-rifled bullets if he's supposed to be a neutral assassin? Sure, he's actually a Hydra agent, but not only is using a weapon without rifling dumb as hell, how is he using a bullet made in a country that doesn't EXIST anymore? And why?! Hydra wanted to portray this guy as an assassin for hire, but he still looks like a soviet agent and uses soviet bullets.

Also, I'm disappointed they didn't say his arm was made of vibranium, like Cap's shield. It would've been cool.


I want all of you thinking that Hydra's plan here was unpractical and silly, to remember the bomb plan. Where every bomb had the name of the city it was intended for written on it.

Hydra does the most comic-booky of all the villains in the CU. This is their MO.

In English, too.

[LaZodiac]

Also, I'm disappointed they didn't say his arm was made of vibranium, like Cap's shield. It would've been cool.


That'd be impossible since the shield is made of all the known Vibranium on earth. However...#Redskull_Got_Teleported_Not_Telefragged

[HalfTangible]

That'd be impossible since the shield is made of all the known Vibranium on earth. However...#Redskull_Got_Teleported_Not_Telefragged

All the vibranium know to exsit at the time it was made, sure. :smallamused:

[SeeDarkly_X]

That'd be impossible since the shield is made of all the known Vibranium on earth. However...#Redskull_Got_Teleported_Not_Telefragged

"Known Vibranium" is not "all the Vibranium" and does not mean new sources of it have not/could not be found off screen.

Just saying there's no reason they couldn't have done it... but simultaneously there is really no reason to do it either.

If anything, I would've loved to find out that the arm was a product of Cybertek design, further building their presence in the MCU.
Now that Bucky is free-roaming, sooner or later that arm may need repair.

[SeeDarkly_X]

My question is this: Why did the winter soldier use soviet-made, non-rifled bullets if he's supposed to be a neutral assassin? Sure, he's actually a Hydra agent, but not only is using a weapon without rifling dumb as hell, how is he using a bullet made in a country that doesn't EXIST anymore? And why?! Hydra wanted to portray this guy as an assassin for hire, but he still looks like a soviet agent and uses soviet bullets.


Just theorizing, but for Hydra it diffuses any relation to the Winter Soldier. Outfitting him with outdated Russian ordinance and building a rumor mill starting from older Russian intelligence creates layers of deception that prevents them from being found out and makes him harder to trace back to them as his source. It might be a little convoluted as a red herring, but on measure it works fine.

[SaintRidley]

I thought they only found the cube shortly before they found the Captain. And we don't know how long they were working with it before Loki showed up.

Well, we know the modern day parts of the films take place more or less contemporaneously with the film release dates. So up to 10 months or so working on it.

[Legato Endless]

Convoluted is pretty much Hydra's modus operandi.

I'm not sure MCU vibranium would work well as an arm. The conservation of momentum Cap's shield consistently demonstrates, (ignoring the kinetic consistency shenanigans) seems pretty problematic a trait to imbue in a limb. The indestructibility would be nice, but his arm seems durable enough as is.

[Tono]

The weapon being soviet is a throwback to/comes from the comics, and if that file Natasha gave Cap is any clue, will probably be better explained in following tittles. Or so I hope.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Maybe Adamantium, actually has Adamtium ever been mentioned in the MCU? The X-Men movies don't count, they are their own separate universe.

[Dragonexx]

I thought they only found the cube shortly before they found the Captain. And we don't know how long they were working with it before Loki showed up.

The cube was found shortly after WWII by Howard Stark, while he was looking for Cap. There's a scene of him finding it in Captain America 1 and Fury says where it was found in Avengers.

[HalfTangible]

Maybe Adamantium, actually has Adamtium ever been mentioned in the MCU? The X-Men movies don't count, they are their own separate universe.

Adamantium is indestructible, I believe, and the arm DOES take some damage and requires some repair.

[Sith_Happens]

My question is this: Why did the winter soldier use soviet-made, non-rifled bullets if he's supposed to be a neutral assassin? Sure, he's actually a Hydra agent, but not only is using a weapon without rifling dumb as hell, how is he using a bullet made in a country that doesn't EXIST anymore? And why?! Hydra wanted to portray this guy as an assassin for hire, but he still looks like a soviet agent and uses soviet bullets.

Did they not say that he was "upgraded" in Soviet Russia (albeit with Hydra's assistance)? I thought they did.:smallconfused:

[dehro]

The girl avenger says it Clearly... The Winter soldier has been active for a Good fifty years, meaning he probably got his arm made not long after ww2 and they probably allocated a big pile of bullets back then...which he's still going through.
Waste not...

[Hopeless]

That said, a thought occurs to me. Why, if Hydra was working Shield for so long, did it take Shield as long as it did to start messing with the cube? Hydra knew a fair bit about it before shield started experimenting, Zola knew it first hand. What was the delay?

1) Who says Stark told Zola he had it?

2) Unless otherwise stated every Director of SHIELD wasn't a Hydra Agent and knew well enough to hide the Red Skull's personal instrument of world domination where no American could find it let alone Hydra (Have you seen their movies?:smalltongue:)

3) It was Fury who brought it out and given how he treats places he wants secure its unlikely they knew precisely where he stored it until Project Pegasus was turned into a hole in the ground...

4) Fury what more of a reason do you need?:smallwink:

5) So Loki only found out because he hitched a astral lift with Thor's new friend whom he later had to mind control ignoring the fact he should have already been under Loki's control but I haven't read the novelisation so I can't say for sure whether he was covering his tracks...
That happened at the end of the first Thor movie suggesting that is what persuaded Fury to step up his plans and not the fact he had proof of the existance of extra terrestrials on Earth...

Should I spoiler any of that?:smallsmile:

[Cheesegear]

So it's basically confirmed that Marvel is trying to put a Doctor Strange movie into the works. But, also confirmed is Black Panther (because the Avengers are really, really white at this point).

Marvel 'has plans' for movies up to 2021, and can be pretty much taken at their word, since they're also on record as saying that they're doing things in 2015 that they planned back in 2006.

[erikun]

I don't know if simply name-dropping automatically means that we'll see a movie about the character. After all, they could be just throwing out the name as a shout-out easter egg for those who are familiar with the comics. Or perhaps legal reasons, with having the character named in their movies.

[Cheesegear]

I don't know if simply name-dropping automatically means that we'll see a movie about the character.

Except in Strange's case, it does, because research into the matter will tell you so.

[dehro]

yeah..there are a few easter eggs here and there (think the pulp fiction quote)

[Olinser]

1) Who says Stark told Zola he had it?

2) Unless otherwise stated every Director of SHIELD wasn't a Hydra Agent and knew well enough to hide the Red Skull's personal instrument of world domination where no American could find it let alone Hydra (Have you seen their movies?:smalltongue:)

3) It was Fury who brought it out and given how he treats places he wants secure its unlikely they knew precisely where he stored it until Project Pegasus was turned into a hole in the ground...

4) Fury what more of a reason do you need?:smallwink:

5) So Loki only found out because he hitched a astral lift with Thor's new friend whom he later had to mind control ignoring the fact he should have already been under Loki's control but I haven't read the novelisation so I can't say for sure whether he was covering his tracks...
That happened at the end of the first Thor movie suggesting that is what persuaded Fury to step up his plans and not the fact he had proof of the existance of extra terrestrials on Earth...

Should I spoiler any of that?:smallsmile:

Fury said flat out in Avengers that the reason they started messing with the cube was because Thor showed up and Fury realized they were going to need better weapons.

Which would put their experiments starting just a few months before the Captain was unfrozen.

Before that it was probably locked in the Indiana Jones warehouse or something.

[Psyren]

I honestly hope they don't do Black Panther. Quite apart from the unpleasant historical connotations of the name itself to non-comic-book audiences, the existence of a technological paradise hidden deep in Africa is just going to seem trite to modern audiences who are finally beginning to get a grasp of just how unbelievably ****ty things really are over there.



Also, I'm disappointed they didn't say his arm was made of vibranium, like Cap's shield. It would've been cool.


That would remove a lot of the symbolism when he inevitably picks up the fallen Cap's shield later.

[Karoht]

My question is this: Why did the winter soldier use soviet-made, non-rifled bullets if he's supposed to be a neutral assassin? Sure, he's actually a Hydra agent, but not only is using a weapon without rifling dumb as hell, how is he using a bullet made in a country that doesn't EXIST anymore? And why?! Hydra wanted to portray this guy as an assassin for hire, but he still looks like a soviet agent and uses soviet bullets.Because anyone finding the bullets hits a dead end, a ghost story, just like him.
The bullet has no rifling, meaning you can't match it to the gun that fired it. Hard to figure out exactly what kind of gun fired it as well. And even if you could figure out that the bullets are Soviet made, that in and of itself is a dead end. The makers of the bullets are likely dead from old age or the KGB covering their tracks, no available records, that kind of thing.

Interesting point. The fact that he is implied to be part of the JFK assassination (where no soviet bullets were found) means that either all or some of the rounds are frangible (break apart on impact, harder to find an intact round after it hits something like concrete or a car) and such rounds would have been extremely hard for forensics to track back then.


Also, I'm disappointed they didn't say his arm was made of vibranium, like Cap's shield. It would've been cool....because it isn't.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucky_Barnes#Powers_and_abilities


That would remove a lot of the symbolism.Agreed, but no where is it noted that the arm is Vibranium. And saying it is in the MCU when it isn't in the comics is the kind of thing that annoys fans. It also ruins the rarity of Vibranium and the uniqueness associated with the shield.


I honestly hope they don't do Black Panther. Quite apart from the unpleasant historical connotations of the name itself to non-comic-book audiences, the existence of a technological paradise hidden deep in Africa is just going to seem trite to modern audiences who are finally beginning to get a grasp of just how unbelievably ****ty things really are over there.I completely agree with you.
From what I can tell, it's been in development hell for quite some time. He is probably going to show up in the new marvel property being introduced as a Netflix exclusive, the Defenders, based on the comic of the same name.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvel_Cinematic_Universe#Netflix_series

But between you and me, I fully expect them to gloss over Wakanda or give him a completely new background. They seem to like assigning military backgrounds to SHIELD agents. Barton was a sniper who just happened to like bows, but is an expert marksman with pretty much anything. Falcon was a recon specialist now handling support for PTSD. Black Panther could be a former stealth op/black op/mercenary type. They might connect him to something a bit dark and real happening in the past/present of the African continent, but I strongly doubt they will go with the comics version of Wakanda.
I'm not sure if it would be an insult or not, but Wakanda might just be the name of a fictional town in the MCU, much like Gulmira was in Iron Man. Wakanda could also be the name of something with military importance, like a SHIELD base or training area.

[LaZodiac]

Wakanda's actually shown up on a map in some places, like Ironman 2. I think it's a country.

[Dienekes]

My question is this: Why did the winter soldier use soviet-made, non-rifled bullets if he's supposed to be a neutral assassin? Sure, he's actually a Hydra agent, but not only is using a weapon without rifling dumb as hell, how is he using a bullet made in a country that doesn't EXIST anymore? And why?! Hydra wanted to portray this guy as an assassin for hire, but he still looks like a soviet agent and uses soviet bullets.

If I had to guess. Hydra either had a hand in the USSR during the Cold War (probably infiltrated the KGB), which makes sense for their end goals and because the Russians also picked up a lot of German scientists at the end of WWII. And so it would make sense for him to have been made by that branch of Hydra.

The other idea is that he was purposely designed to look like a Russian assassin during the Cold War because that serves Hydra's goals as well. It promotes the paranoia of the people in the power of the USSR while giving an excuse for anyone who would suspect a conspiracy within SHIELD. The assassin is obviously an outsider, at worst there's a mole for the Russians, no one would suspect Hydra reborn within them.

[Karoht]

Wakanda's actually shown up on a map in some places, like Ironman 2. I think it's a country.*headsmack* Do you have any idea how often I keep forgetting that? I even read that earlier in the thread.
Still, I think they are more likely to make Wakana a generic sort of place, rather than what is in the comics. On the other hand, they could use Black Panther's origin story to hint at Wakanda's rise to power. Maybe as a parable about modernization and how they need to stand on their own feet rather than rely on [insert foreign power] to modernize them or solve their problems.
Hmmm. An AIM/HYDRA story centering around Wakanda, with a message about modernization/globalization is a possible first outing for Black Panther. I could see that.


*Assuming they weren't going to reveal these two in Avengers, which they are*
Scarlet Witch: "We helped make this mess, we were the ones who told you to trust AIM, this is our mistake not yours. We're coming with you! We're going to help set this right."
Black Panther: "No. Wakanda must stand on it's own two feet. And so must I. We've sat back and let the world solve our problems for far too long. We are strong, we must do this."
Quicksilver: "You are right. We are strong, must do this. We're coming with you!"

[HalfTangible]

So with the introduction of brain-pattern based AI into the MCU, the extremely high likelihood that Red Skull got teleported at the end of Cap1, and the revelation that Hydra continued to survive as a massive conspiracy, does that mean that the Red Skull will turn out to be Ultron in Avengers 2?

[Olinser]

So with the introduction of brain-pattern based AI into the MCU, the extremely high likelihood that Red Skull got teleported at the end of Cap1, and the revelation that Hydra continued to survive as a massive conspiracy, does that mean that the Red Skull will turn out to be Ultron in Avengers 2?

Doubt it. More likely it is going to be Zolaf himself uploading into the body.

Though it will be interesting to see which incarnation of Ultron they go with and what his powers are. He's rebuilt himself what... 20 times now?

He's done things like take over Iron Man's armor, built the Vision and like half a dozen female robots, and various other things.

[The New Bruceski]

Doubt it. More likely it is going to be Zolaf himself uploading into the body.

Though it will be interesting to see which incarnation of Ultron they go with and what his powers are. He's rebuilt himself what... 20 times now?

He's done things like take over Iron Man's armor, built the Vision and like half a dozen female robots, and various other things.

Clearly Ultron will upload itself into a furby and go on a rampage.

[Talya]

There's really only one thing I feel should never be spoiled: Watchmen - the twist is just beautiful and robbing someone of that is a crime.


I hated that comic.


Now back on subject:

Captain America: The Winter Soldier was a pastry made of awesome, with an awesome-based filling, and a coating of powdered awesome. I got out of that movie last night thinking, "Holy Sugar!" or something similar.

but then I got home and watched last night's episode of Agents of Shield, which happens concurrent to the new Cap movie. At that point, my reaction was a far more visceral "Holy Farging Sugar!"

[Karoht]

I hated that comic.


Now back on subject:

Captain America: The Winter Soldier was a pastry made of awesome, with an awesome-based filling, and a coating of powdered awesome. I got out of that movie last night thinking, "Holy Sugar!" or something similar.

but then I got home and watched last night's episode of Agents of Shield, which happens concurrent to the new Cap movie. At that point, my reaction was a far more visceral "Holy Farging Sugar!"While I haven't been watching Agents of SHIELD, I just read the wiki and caught up that way.
Yeah. Wow. Sounds awesome, might have to watch it now.

[DigoDragon]

Saw Winter Soldier~
Not bad. Fun car chase scene, lots of action. Black Widow really was stealing the light. :3

Not feeling the love about disbanding SHIELD like that though. I get the conspiracy part, but just feel like SHIELD is going to survive just the same as Hydra. :smalltongue:

[Sith_Happens]

Not feeling the love about disbanding SHIELD like that though. I get the conspiracy part, but just feel like SHIELD is going to survive just the same as Hydra. :smalltongue:

I have a strong feeling that Season 2 of a certain television show is going to center around picking up the pieces.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Now back on subject:

Captain America: The Winter Soldier was a pastry made of awesome, with an awesome-based filling, and a coating of powdered awesome. I got out of that movie last night thinking, "Holy Sugar!" or something similar.

but then I got home and watched last night's episode of Agents of Shield, which happens concurrent to the new Cap movie. At that point, my reaction was a far more visceral "Holy Farging Sugar!"
ME TOO. It was pure joy getting to see things bleed over. Like, I was on the edge of my seat trying to pinpoint the bit where they realize that Hydra has infiltrated SHIELD. And there was that one moment where I just knew they were going to find out that Fury had been "killed".

Though, I do feel like Natasha's Wikileaks dump is conspicuously grinding against some stuff in Agents of SHIELD, unless some of the things in that show are buried outside of the normal SHIELD files.

Also, add me to the chorus of "WHERE WAS CLINT???" I'm hoping we get a strong nod to that, somehow. Though, Agents of SHIELD did do a good job of showing how confusing and chaotic it was for agents who weren't at the throwdown in DC.

[The Glyphstone]

We'll find out Clint went on vacation. In Tahiti.

He'll be so confused why everyone is giving him strange looks.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Cue him telling everyone how Tahiti is a magical place.

Except, he's literally talking about Tahiti.

[Connington]

Because anyone finding the bullets hits a dead end, a ghost story, just like him.
The bullet has no rifling, meaning you can't match it to the gun that fired it. Hard to figure out exactly what kind of gun fired it as well. And even if you could figure out that the bullets are Soviet made, that in and of itself is a dead end. The makers of the bullets are likely dead from old age or the KGB covering their tracks, no available records, that kind of thing.

Interesting point. The fact that he is implied to be part of the JFK assassination (where no soviet bullets were found) means that either all or some of the rounds are frangible (break apart on impact, harder to find an intact round after it hits something like concrete or a car) and such rounds would have been extremely hard for forensics to track back then.

Yeah, except for the fact that the gun's very uniqueness makes it super conspicuous. It's like the man with the untraceable licence plate (http://xkcd.com/1105/). The fact that all rifles have barreling marks means that any bullet without rifling marks is going to raise red flags, and be immediately linked to the other handful of cases. Also, a rifle without barreling is basically a musket. Not fun to shoot with.

The proper way to do a forensically untraceable killing is to use the rifle exactly once. And then don't use any exotic bullets or guns that would scream "national intelligence agency" to a coroner. If you want to get really crazy, mix up weapons and killing methods so that there isn't a consistent M.O. for an investigator to trace. But that's like 20 times more realistic and boring than the rest of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, so I'm not actually complaining.

[The Glyphstone]

Yeah, except for the fact that the gun's very uniqueness makes it super conspicuous. It's like the man with the untraceable licence plate (http://xkcd.com/1105/). The fact that all rifles have barreling marks means that any bullet without rifling marks is going to raise red flags, and be immediately linked to the other handful of cases. Also, a rifle without barreling is basically a musket. Not fun to shoot with.

The proper way to do a forensically untraceable killing is to use the rifle exactly once. And then don't use any exotic bullets or guns that would scream "national intelligence agency" to a coroner. If you want to get really crazy, mix up weapons and killing methods so that there isn't a consistent M.O. for an investigator to trace. But that's like 20 times more realistic and boring than the rest of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, so I'm not actually complaining.

That's not really the point...of course someone is going to figure out that the same guy was responsible for all the rifle-less bullet killings. The mythos of the Winter Soldier is a paid assassin (since HYDRA is still secret), and half of the job description is being known as someone who can get the job done and get away...so using a distinctive signature technique/weapon is beneficial for market reputation, and if that's the only thing known about you, only minorly detrimental to the actual job. Having your 'signature weapon' be unrifled bullets isn't the best choice, mind you, but the theory is sound - it identifies a killing as being done by the Winter Soldier, but gives zero ability to trace said killing back to identify who said Winter Soldier is.

[DigoDragon]

I have a strong feeling that Season 2 of a certain television show is going to center around picking up the pieces.

I have a lot of those same feelings too.



Also, add me to the chorus of "WHERE WAS CLINT???"

My wife was asking that several times during the movie.
I was like "I dunno, maybe home watching My Little Pony." ...she stopped asking me. :3



Cue him telling everyone how Tahiti is a magical place.
Except, he's literally talking about Tahiti.

Coulson: "You and I remember Tahiti very differently."

[LaZodiac]

Yeah, except for the fact that the gun's very uniqueness makes it super conspicuous. It's like the man with the untraceable licence plate (http://xkcd.com/1105/). The fact that all rifles have barreling marks means that any bullet without rifling marks is going to raise red flags, and be immediately linked to the other handful of cases. Also, a rifle without barreling is basically a musket. Not fun to shoot with.

The proper way to do a forensically untraceable killing is to use the rifle exactly once. And then don't use any exotic bullets or guns that would scream "national intelligence agency" to a coroner. If you want to get really crazy, mix up weapons and killing methods so that there isn't a consistent M.O. for an investigator to trace. But that's like 20 times more realistic and boring than the rest of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, so I'm not actually complaining.

I...actually just had the impression that that's what the Winter Soldier DID do. The only reason the bullet type was mentioned was when Black Widow mentioned she was shot before (at least, that's all I could remember!).

Clint is Hawkeye, right?

[Mauve Shirt]

Yes he is.


New fun game: Watching the other Marvel movies and wondering which SHIELD agents are HYDRA.
(there's no foreshadowing of these events hidden in the Marvel movies)

[Dienekes]

Yes he is.


New fun game: Watching the other Marvel movies and wondering which SHIELD agents are HYDRA.
(there's no foreshadowing of these events hidden in the Marvel movies)

The guy who was playing Galaga, definitely HYDRA. Only they can be so insanely dumb.

[BRC]

Yes he is.


New fun game: Watching the other Marvel movies and wondering which SHIELD agents are HYDRA.
(there's no foreshadowing of these events hidden in the Marvel movies)

Remember The Avengers.
At one point on Stark Tower Pepper leans in and whispers something in Tony's ear.

I think we now know what she said.

[Mauve Shirt]

If Pepper is Hydra I'm going to find a high place and toss a wooden piece of furniture over the edge. Probably a chair.

[LaZodiac]

Yes he is.


New fun game: Watching the other Marvel movies and wondering which SHIELD agents are HYDRA.
(there's no foreshadowing of these events hidden in the Marvel movies)

It's not just Shield agents. That guy in Ironman 2 who raised the injunction on Tony's suit was Hydra as well!

[RoboChap]

Also, add me to the chorus of "WHERE WAS CLINT???" I'm hoping we get a strong nod to that, somehow. Though, Agents of SHIELD did do a good job of showing how confusing and chaotic it was for agents who weren't at the throwdown in DC.

A couple of my friends have raised the same point, but the thing is we have seen Hawkeye on mission precisely twice - Guarding the hastily arrange SHIELD compound surrounding Mjolnir, and guarding the facility of Tesseract research. With that in mind, it could be that they consider Barton a guard for super secret things rather than an out-there-in-the-field agent like Scarlett Widow. It's not unreasonable to think that he is therefore off somewhere guarding a super-secret site somewhere (and as for Fury not calling him in when he needed people to trust, he trusted nobody but Agent Scherbatsky. There was a significant "not even me?!" look of irritation on Natasha's face when Fury says he had to disappear as he didn't know who he could trust, so not trusting ANY Avenger, and therefore not bring Barton in, makes sense.

[Cheesegear]

Also, add me to the chorus of "WHERE WAS CLINT???"

If imdb is correct, Clint time-travelled back to the 1970s, where he became a mayor in New Jersey.


Clint is Hawkeye, right?

No. Hawkeye was Benjamin Pierce, he was stationed in a Mobile Army Hospital during the Korean War.


...Okay...That's two terrible jokes in a row. *runs*

[BWR]

And here was I wondering why Natty Bumpo had changed his name. This explains everything.

[dehro]

Remember The Avengers.
At one point on Stark Tower Pepper leans in and whispers something in Tony's ear.

I think we now know what she said.

"Ravage me with a turkey baster"?
"should I bring the wet celery?"
Or is it something else?

[Athaniar]

Every Stan Lee cameo is actually a HYDRA spy.

[Psyren]

I have a strong feeling that Season 2 of a certain television show is going to center around picking up the pieces.

Scuttlebutt says the show isn't doing too well, even with the free Winter Soldier tie-in.


If Pepper is Hydra I'm going to find a high place and toss a wooden piece of furniture over the edge. Probably a chair.

If she were I'd just expect her to be a double-agent. But Hydra already has a super-scientist, they don't need either Stark's toys.

[Legato Endless]

Every Stan Lee cameo is actually a HYDRA spy.

I would perfectly fine with that. I am getting kind of sick of them. I don't mind him appearing in every film, but the 'cute moment' they go for is a bit obnoxious.

[Connington]

That's not really the point...of course someone is going to figure out that the same guy was responsible for all the rifle-less bullet killings. The mythos of the Winter Soldier is a paid assassin (since HYDRA is still secret), and half of the job description is being known as someone who can get the job done and get away...so using a distinctive signature technique/weapon is beneficial for market reputation, and if that's the only thing known about you, only minorly detrimental to the actual job. Having your 'signature weapon' be unrifled bullets isn't the best choice, mind you, but the theory is sound - it identifies a killing as being done by the Winter Soldier, but gives zero ability to trace said killing back to identify who said Winter Soldier is.

I don't think the Winter Soldier's cover story was ever stated, and it definitely wasn't as a hired gun. Going off IMDB, this is the only quote about him.


"Most of the intelligence community doesn't believe he exists. The ones that do call him the Winter Soldier. He's a ghost, you'll never find him..."

Winter Soldier in the comics was a Soviet operative, and judging by the fact that the gun in question is explicitly of Russian manufacture, it seems logical that the Winter Soldier is supposed to be an inscrutable communist agent carrying out inscrutable communist plots as well.

Of course a false flag operation that's totally undetectable is contradictory and pointless, but it's a comic book movie.

[BWR]

"should I bring the wet celery?"


the flying helmet.


the eggwhisk.

[Thrudd]

A couple of my friends have raised the same point, but the thing is we have seen Hawkeye on mission precisely twice - Guarding the hastily arrange SHIELD compound surrounding Mjolnir, and guarding the facility of Tesseract research. With that in mind, it could be that they consider Barton a guard for super secret things rather than an out-there-in-the-field agent like Scarlett Widow. It's not unreasonable to think that he is therefore off somewhere guarding a super-secret site somewhere (and as for Fury not calling him in when he needed people to trust, he trusted nobody but Agent Scherbatsky. There was a significant "not even me?!" look of irritation on Natasha's face when Fury says he had to disappear as he didn't know who he could trust, so not trusting ANY Avenger, and therefore not bring Barton in, makes sense.

I'm guessing in Age of Ultron we'll find out where Barton has been, through a flashback or expository dialogue, since he is supposed to have a much bigger role in that movie. My guess is, he will be at some secret site or on a mission, Fury calls him and tells him "code purple", or whatever, and he goes off-grid, possibly to meet Fury at their secret rendezvous place in Europe.

[LaZodiac]

I'm guessing in Age of Ultron we'll find out where Barton has been, through a flashback or expository dialogue, since he is supposed to have a much bigger role in that movie. My guess is, he will be at some secret site or on a mission, Fury calls him and tells him "code purple", or whatever, and he goes off-grid, possibly to meet Fury at their secret rendezvous place in Europe.

Hehe...it's funny because his outfit is purple :smallamused:

[dehro]

the flying helmet.


the eggwhisk.

Glad someone caught the reference :smallwink:

[Thrudd]

Hehe...it's funny because his outfit is purple :smallamused:

:smallwink: He shows up in bright purple spandex with the winged mask, and Fury is like "What the hell man?! You're supposed to be incognito." "Isn't this what 'code purple' means? I thought we were doing this now. Also, I have a mask, so nobody knows who I am."

[Sith_Happens]

Scuttlebutt says the show isn't doing too well, even with the free Winter Soldier tie-in.

I don't know which scuttlebutt you've been listening to, but according to Wikipedia it's consistently been #3 in its timeslot behind Modern Family and The Big Bang Theory.


But Hydra already has a super-scientist, they don't need either Stark's toys.

Senator Why-Aren't-You-Selling-Us-Powered-Armor being Hydra seems to hint otherwise.

Speaking of which, I put 50/50 odds on the vice president in Iron Man 3 being Hydra.

[Cheesegear]

I don't know which scuttlebutt you've been listening to

I figure he means the 'internet scuttlebutt'. What a lot of people don't realise, is that the internet is actually the vocal minority.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

No. Hawkeye was Benjamin Pierce, he was stationed in a Mobile Army Hospital during the Korean War.


*whistles Suicide is Painless*

[Karoht]

@Where was Hawkeye?
Did ANYONE notice the necklace that Black Widow was wearing? An arrow
I'm certain there was a clue there.
Also, notice in Thor 2 that Stelvig was still a wee bit kooky from having Loki mess with his head. Do you think maybe Clint might have genuinely been on leave recovering? Or maybe it has something to do with how the HYDRA/AIM guys at the end of the film had Loki's scepter?
Jeremy Renner is cast for Avengers: Age of Ultron, so I guess we have to wait until then.

[dehro]

Maybe I'm weird, but I don't have a problem with Hawkeye not being there, not as much as everybody else seems to have, that is. The world is a big place and SHIELD operates across the globe on a variety of fronts and issues.
There are plenty of other SHIELD bases where he may have been, handling all manner of sensitive top level investigations, when Order 66 was issued. He may have been busy fighting Hydra agents in one such location, just not one important enough to make the headlines. Or maybe he simply didn't manage to secure a flight ticket from wherever he was at in time to be of assistance.
For all we know he may have been in the field, investigating whatever it is the next movie will be about, and was under orders not to break radio silence, so never was aware or involved with what happened.

I'm marginally more annoyed by the notion of Fury not trusting anybody including black widow, yet somehow trusting agent Sherbatsky and every other random mook who was protecting his bullet-riddled ass in the bolthole he was convalescing at... Because plot.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Remember The Avengers.
At one point on Stark Tower Pepper leans in and whispers something in Tony's ear.

I think we now know what she said.
Oh my gosh. Can somebody please overdub this with audio?

Also, Tony Stark's reaction should cause people quite a bit of alarm.

Maybe I'm weird, but I don't have a problem with Hawkeye not being there, not as much as everybody else seems to have, that is. The world is a big place and SHIELD operates across the globe on a variety of fronts and issues.
There are plenty of other SHIELD bases where he may have been, handling all manner of sensitive top level investigations, when Order 66 was issued. He may have been busy fighting Hydra agents in one such location, just not one important enough to make the headlines. Or maybe he simply didn't manage to secure a flight ticket from wherever he was at in time to be of assistance.
For all we know he may have been in the field, investigating whatever it is the next movie will be about, and was under orders not to break radio silence, so never was aware or involved with what happened.

Oooh, that's a good point there. I'm reminded of how things fell out in Agents of SHIELD--it gave a good idea of what Winter Soldier looked like to agents who weren't in DC.

[LaZodiac]

Oooh, that's a good point there. I'm reminded of how things fell out in Agents of SHIELD--it gave a good idea of what Winter Soldier looked like to agents who weren't in DC.

Yeah. Like, imagine the soldiers who got iced when Garret gave the "Sitwell" order. Imagine how ****ed up things must of been in other places that had no idea. Suddenly your best friend is killing you, saying he's Hydra, or worse saying YOU'RE Hydra. It's a cluster****.

[DigoDragon]

I found a Tumblr post that shows what Steve's list (http://luciawestwick.tumblr.com/post/82010300995/do-you-remember-the-scene-where-steve-shows-page) contained from international versions of the film.



Maybe I'm weird, but I don't have a problem with Hawkeye not being there, not as much as everybody else seems to have, that is. The world is a big place and SHIELD operates across the globe on a variety of fronts and issues.

SHIELD's sheer size is why I believe that the organization will reform once the dust settles. If the bad guys can do it, so can the good guys (hopefully this time we properly vet our scientists, yes?) :smallbiggrin:

[Lost Demiurge]

Maybe I'm weird, but I don't have a problem with Hawkeye not being there, not as much as everybody else seems to have, that is. The world is a big place and SHIELD operates across the globe on a variety of fronts and issues.
There are plenty of other SHIELD bases where he may have been, handling all manner of sensitive top level investigations, when Order 66 was issued. He may have been busy fighting Hydra agents in one such location, just not one important enough to make the headlines. Or maybe he simply didn't manage to secure a flight ticket from wherever he was at in time to be of assistance.
For all we know he may have been in the field, investigating whatever it is the next movie will be about, and was under orders not to break radio silence, so never was aware or involved with what happened.

I'm marginally more annoyed by the notion of Fury not trusting anybody including black widow, yet somehow trusting agent Sherbatsky and every other random mook who was protecting his bullet-riddled ass in the bolthole he was convalescing at... Because plot.

I think someone brought up the idea earlier of Hawkeye being in the field, having his backup try to kill him, and having to fight his way out of a bad situation then calling back to the prime office to find that things are FUBARed.

Be funny as hell if Widow has to go retrieve him in the beginning of Avengers 2 from some third-world place where he's hunkering down keeping a low profile and trying to figure out who to trust. Or maybe that'd make a good Black Widow movie... hrm....

[Dienekes]

Honestly, after Avengers I was sure there would be a Hawkeye/Black Widow movie during the run up to Avengers 2. I'm a little disappointed there wasn't one really.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Honestly, after Avengers I was sure there would be a Hawkeye/Black Widow movie during the run up to Avengers 2. I'm a little disappointed there wasn't one really.
I think it'd be a better movie after Winter Soldier, to be honest. Partially because I loved seeing Natasha's characterization develop some in this movie. (Really! In IM2 she was "action redhead in a catsuit", moving to "savvy action redhead with regrets in a catsuit" in Avengers...and then in WS she was "practical, bantery, troubled redhead who finds a friend and has some action scenes".)

[Mauve Shirt]

Rewatching IM2 for the first time in a while, just recognized the senator as the hail hydra guy.

Next up on "Mauve is surprised by continuity", she discovers that the young boy in The Phantom Menace grows up to be Darth Vader!

[Athaniar]

I just rewatched the first one, and I'd be willing to bet that Stane was HYDRA, or at least connected to them in some way. If nothing else HYDRA taking out Howard was awfully convenient for him...

[Talakeal]

That'd be impossible since the shield is made of all the known Vibranium on earth.

Its my understanding that the vibranium in Captain America's shield was a gift from the nation of Wakanda, and though it was all the Americans had there is still plenty more in Africa.

I believe that is what they are looking for in Africa at the start of X-Men Origins, as adamant was an attempt to artificially replicate Vibranium. I could be very wrong on all of this though, as most of my comic knowledge is second hand.

[LaZodiac]

Its my understanding that the vibranium in Captain America's shield was a gift from the nation of Wakanda, and though it was all the Americans had there is still plenty more in Africa.

I believe that is what they are looking for in Africa at the start of X-Men Origins, as adamant was an attempt to artificially replicate Vibranium. I could be very wrong on all of this though, as most of my comic knowledge is second hand.

The X Men Movies aren't part of the Marvel Cinematic Universe. So...nope!

[Pex]

Funny how everyone is calling her Agent Sherbatsky instead of her actual character name.

Not that I can tell you what it is either without looking it up.

:smalltongue:

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Rewatching IM2 for the first time in a while, just recognized the senator as the hail hydra guy.
Yeah; I had to have that pointed out to me, but I did get that sense of deja vu. "I know I've seen you before, but where?"

[LaZodiac]

Funny how everyone is calling her Agent Sherbatsky instead of her actual character name.

Not that I can tell you what it is either without looking it up.

:smalltongue:

It's actually a trend. The only one who's really called by his "super hero" name often, or at all, are The Hulk and...well, Thor. Also Hawkeye for whatever reason (I'm thinking most people don't know his real name, is the thing). For the others it's Tony, Steve, etc.

[Talakeal]

The X Men Movies aren't part of the Marvel Cinematic Universe. So...nope!

And? They are still based on the same source material.

Doing a quick Wikipedia check everything about what I said seems correct to be correct as far as the comics are concerned.

[Tvtyrant]

Did anyone else catch Black Widow's vanity plate on the car? From when she picks up the Captain?

I watched the movie twice, and I just realized she had one on the second watching and I didn't catch it. I think it spells out "I love Russia" but I will need to see it a third time to be sure.

Which is great, because the first fist fight between the Winter Warrior and the Captain is now one of my favorite fights ever. The way CA slowly gets the upper hand and the other guy freaks out is awesome.

[Devonix]

And? They are still based on the same source material.

Doing a quick Wikipedia check everything about what I said seems correct to be correct as far as the comics are concerned.

The X Men films are owned by a separate movie studio. The things that happen in them have no baring on the Marvel Studios films any more than a Dreamworks film has on a Disney one.

[Cheesegear]

What is not part of the Marvel Cinematic Universe;

X-Men, Wolverine, and apparently the word 'Mutants'. However, they're now limited to the characters that have appeared so far. So, don't expect anyone to die anytime soon because Fox doesn't have the rights to any more X-Men - supposedly.

Blade
Spider-Man
Daredevil/Elektra (although that licence expires soon)
Punisher
Ghost Rider
Fantastic Four

[RoboChap]

What is not part of the Marvel Cinematic Universe;

X-Men, Wolverine, and apparently the word 'Mutants'. However, they're now limited to the characters that have appeared so far. So, don't expect anyone to die anytime soon because Fox doesn't have the rights to any more X-Men - supposedly.

Blade
Spider-Man
Daredevil/Elektra (although that licence expires soon)
Punisher
Ghost Rider
Fantastic Four

I think I read somewhere that the licences for Blade, Punisher and Ghost Rider have all now reverted back to Marvel. F4 and Spider-Man are very much off limits though.

[Devonix]

I think I read somewhere that the licences for Blade, Punisher and Ghost Rider have all now reverted back to Marvel. F4 and Spider-Man are very much off limits though.

Yep all of the Marvel Knights Characters and Marvel MAX characters are now back at Marvel studios.

[Athaniar]

Daredevil has already been confirmed for a Netflix series within the MCU (along with Luke Cage, Iron Fist, and Jessica Jones, and a Defenders one to follow them like Avengers for the films).

[lord_khaine]

I think I read somewhere that the licences for Blade, Punisher and Ghost Rider have all now reverted back to Marvel. F4 and Spider-Man are very much off limits though.

is.. it bad for me to be wishing 2 large companies would get into severe financial trouble.. just to get all the licenses down under 1 roof? :smalltongue:

[CarpeGuitarrem]

On the other hand, it'd be nice to have those heroes eased into the MCU after a time. The Marvel-verse is already pretty crowded; I think that the MCU benefited from not having the pressure to include other heroes alongside the Avengers we see now.

[Calemyr]

On the other hand, it'd be nice to have those heroes eased into the MCU after a time. The Marvel-verse is already pretty crowded; I think that the MCU benefited from not having the pressure to include other heroes alongside the Avengers we see now.

As mentioned in another thread, things get messed up when you combine Avengers with non-Avenger groups. Mainly X-Men. The themes of racism and bigotry tend to fall a little flat when mutation becomes just one of the many paths to super powers next to being an alien demi-god, a super-science id monster, a genius inventor, or simply a really good marksman. Why are mutants so special again?

[RoboChap]

is.. it bad for me to be wishing 2 large companies would get into severe financial trouble.. just to get all the licenses down under 1 roof? :smalltongue:

Maybe once Star Wars 7 comes out and makes another flobadijjilion dollars the Disney Corporate Juggernaught will just buy every other studio just to get Marvel their rights back :P

[CarpeGuitarrem]

As mentioned in another thread, things get messed up when you combine Avengers with non-Avenger groups. Mainly X-Men. The themes of racism and bigotry tend to fall a little flat when mutation becomes just one of the many paths to super powers next to being an alien demi-god, a super-science id monster, a genius inventor, or simply a really good marksman. Why are mutants so special again?
Yeah; I'd be just fine with X-Men staying out of the MCU. They work well on their own.

[Talya]

Maybe once Star Wars 7 comes out and makes another flobadijjilion dollars the Disney Corporate Juggernaught will just buy every other studio just to get Marvel their rights back :P

Disney's the biggest of the movie studios, sure. But just to put it in perspective, Apple Corporation could buy about 90% of Disney's outstanding common shares at their current price* with cash-on-hand.

*This is not factoring in the fact that an attempt to buy those common shares would cause the price to skyrocket, so Apple wouldn't get to 50% Disney ownership that way.


is.. it bad for me to be wishing 2 large companies would get into severe financial trouble.. just to get all the licenses down under 1 roof? :smalltongue:

Considering how much I hate Fox and Sony, and how much I love Disney, I give this wish my wholehearted blessing.
Disney would also need to buy Universal Studios, so they could retrieve their rights to their Marvel characters in theme parks east of the Mississippi river. (I don't hate Universal like I do Fox and Sony.)

[BWR]

Yeah; I'd be just fine with X-Men staying out of the MCU. They work well on their own.

I hear you. One of the major turn-offs about Marvel and DC is their need to have everything happen in the same universe. Conceptually, the X-men and the whole mutant thing just works better in a world without any other type of supers.

[BRC]

I hear you. One of the major turn-offs about Marvel and DC is their need to have everything happen in the same universe. Conceptually, the X-men and the whole mutant thing just works better in a world without any other type of supers.

I agree.

The X-Men as a metaphor becomes more strained the more other superpowers there are.

Like, a Mutant could deal a considerable amount of damage if they wanted to, so people fear all mutants, and you can explore that Fear.

However, Tony Stark, Reed Richards, Hank Pym, and Victor Von Doom have just as much, if not MORE potential to do harm than those mutants.

It seems like a bizzare dichotomy. Did you get your powers because of a genetic mutation? Hated and Feared. Did you get your powers through exposure to an exploding Alien Wish Machine, everybody loves you.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It seems like a bizzare dichotomy. Did you get your powers because of a genetic mutation? Hated and Feared. Did you get your powers through exposure to an exploding Alien Wish Machine, everybody loves you.

Ah, but while the second part could happen to anyone, the first part marks you as a separate 'other'. The Bigot(tm) can picture himself going to space and getting blasted with gamma rays, but cannot picture himself being born as anything other than what he is. Thus he can sympathise with the former but not with the latter.

(I tried to give a good RL example - I can think of several - but can't work my way through a whole one without running into Board Rules issues. Maybe something out of Jane Austen would do, but I don't know that canon well enough).

Grey Wolf

[LaZodiac]

(I tried to give a good RL example - I can think of several - but can't work my way through a whole one without running into Board Rules issues. Maybe something out of Jane Austen would do, but I don't know that canon well enough).

Tony Stark is Ironman, a hero who saved his life thanks to his ingenuity and a box of scraps. People praise his cleverness and love him.

Iron Man is an song about a man who was genetically turned into a metallic man when he was sent back in time. People assume he was naturally born a metal monster and fear him.

[Dienekes]

Tony Stark is Ironman, a hero who saved his life thanks to his ingenuity and a box of scraps. People praise his cleverness and love him.

Iron Man is an song about a man who was genetically turned into a metallic man when he was sent back in time. People assume he was naturally born a metal monster and fear him.

Well they ignore him and think he's a weird statue. Then he kills everyone, so I'd say they have a good right to fear him at that point.

Though, looking at some of the crazy ridiculous damage that mutants have done in Marvel, I can definitely see why there are a subset of people against them.

Though, honestly, I'd be surprised if there wasn't a very large group of people against all super powers. Read what happens in the Marvel Universe for 1 year. How many entire cities are destroyed? Or when Magneto sunk the entire East Coast. Or Onslaught, everything with Onslaught. Or even that well known Xavier fellow who can control anyone's mind anywhere in the world with his machine. Hell man, that world is terrifying.

[lord_khaine]

I think a large part of the problem is how mutants are in some way considered a seperate specie.. recall for a moment how messed up people can get over issues like color, religion or orientation.. and magnify that with how much more different mutants are.

[erikun]

When I first saw/read X-Men, I kind of assumed it was separate from the other comics... precisely because it didn't make much sense for there to be government offices against mutants while completely ignoring superheroes. How exactly do people know that Spider-Man isn't a mutant, and why has nobody accused him of being one once? Why exactly did the Fantastic Four tower not get a visit by sentinels when they were out mutant-kidnapping?

How do people know that the madman electrifying people into ash in town square is a mutant (and running around yelling "Mutant!") as opposed to a normal person who got their powers from an electrical plant explosion?

[Kitten Champion]

The only heroes I'd like to see Marvel regain the rights to are the Fantastic Four, both because I'm skeptical with FOX's ability to use the characters and setting effectively and because they could fit into the MCU fairly easily.

Better still, the MCU already has a team of superheroes - they've done that. They can do something with the FF that I'd really like to see, a family of explorers... Doctor Who with Superheroes.

I'd rather not see Wolverine and the Avengers.

[LaZodiac]

When I first saw/read X-Men, I kind of assumed it was separate from the other comics... precisely because it didn't make much sense for there to be government offices against mutants while completely ignoring superheroes. How exactly do people know that Spider-Man isn't a mutant, and why has nobody accused him of being one once? Why exactly did the Fantastic Four tower not get a visit by sentinels when they were out mutant-kidnapping?

How do people know that the madman electrifying people into ash in town square is a mutant (and running around yelling "Mutant!") as opposed to a normal person who got their powers from an electrical plant explosion?

All these questions actually bring up one of my own. Why NOT have stuff like that happen? It'd be cool!


The only heroes I'd like to see Marvel regain the rights to are the Fantastic Four, both because I'm skeptical with FOX's ability to use the characters and setting effectively and because they could fit into the MCU fairly easily.

Better still, the MCU already has a team of superheroes - they've done that. They can do something with the FF that I'd really like to see, a family of explorers... Doctor Who with Superheroes.

I'd rather not see Wolverine and the Avengers.

Yeah, we've...we've seen what Fox can do with it's IP. And consider that their Human Torch is our Captain America, and realize JUST how bad the directing must of been. Because we know now that Chris Evans, he can ACT, damnit. So his role as Johnny is NOT his fault.

And yes, the less Wolverine-itus we have, the better.

[Tyrant]

As far as the mutant situation, I figured it was a combination of things. The first is that there are likely millions of mutants at this point. Millions of super powered individuals vs. a relative handful of people who experienced lab accidents/got hit with cosmic rays/bit by a radioactive spider/chosen by an alien wish machine/etc. It's a numbers game. I also get the impression that a number of mutants have their powers activate rather violently. So, at any moment, the person next to you could all of the sudden start shooting energy beams everywhere or turn into something toxic to everyone around them. The other major factor is the idea that they represent the next step in evolution. They are living proof that current humans are about to become obsolete. I can understand why current humans would be openly hostile to that idea. Then add in good old ignorance and believing the only side that seems to have a public voice (the anti-mutant side) and you can see why Spider-Man gets a pass while everyone is silently praying the Legacy Virus kills all the mutants.

[erikun]

All these questions actually bring up one of my own. Why NOT have stuff like that happen? It'd be cool!
While this would be interesting, the problem is simply that it doesn't happen. Spiderman or Doctor Strange aren't called out for being a mutant, despite the average person knowing nothing about their home life and there being mutants that actually do have similar or identical powers.

Also, it would kind of interrupt the themes of these stories and replace them with the general X-Men theme. I like X-Men, but I don't read Captain America or the Incredible Hulk to get an X-Men story.