Orcs and Wizarding

[Shadowscale]

Baring the conversation if an Orc can even live long enough to be a wizard I was wondering if there would be anyway to build an effective one? I was thinking something along the lines of an orc paragon first level and wizard for the rest to give martial proficiency and remove light sensitivity. Does anyone have any ideas how to make the best of the race class combo without losing the wizard flavor and becoming a gish?

[Scots Dragon]

The single biggest obstacle to overcome in orcish wizardry is that of the orc's intelligence penalty (and in fact its penalty to all mental abilities, which are a good argument for redoing the orc), though if you have a base intelligence of at least 17-18, that weakness can generally be overcome. It's actually arguably less of a weakness than something like the drow or tiefling having a level adjustment despite those races having an intelligence bonus.

Beyond that, the wizard's strength as a class is in its spellcasting more than its build. It's a tier one class for a reason, after all.

[Dusk Eclipse]

As long as you have at least Int 15 you will be able to access all spells levels in time, so yeah there can be Orc Wizards and since you are going for a Gish build then the lower spell DCs shouldn't be a problem.

I don't think Orc Paragon is that good, since while it gives you the martial weapon proficiencies it doesn't give heavy armour proficiency (needed for spellsword) so a fighter level would be better, you can offset the light blindness with a cheap mundane item (sundark googles)

A simple Orc Fighter 2/Wizard 4/Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ EK 8 net's you 17 BAB and 17/20 casting, pretty standard but quite effective.

[Fouredged Sword]

It is a myth that a wizard need a high int score. Yes, they benefit from a high int for sure, but if you focus on no save, buffs, summons, or save and still suck spells you can start play with a 11 int.

With that in mind, a water orc is a fine starting place for a wizard. Sure there are more powerful options out there, but a good gish will work just fine. A +4 strength makes you an early powerhouse in melee, and that +2 con is always nice. Put a 13 into int so you balance out after racial mods at 11, and you can get items and level boosts in plenty of time to access all new spell levels.

Wizard 2 / fighter 1 / wizard 4 / Spellsword 1 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7

[Vrock_Summoner]

The above posters are correct that you don't *need* high Int to be an effective wizard... Er, assuming a conveniently stocked/prevalent magic mart or wondrous item crafting feat investment, anyway. As it is the case that not all DMs are perfect in this, it's recommended that you still try to pump your starting Int higher.

It really makes sense, too. If orcs have a racial penalty to intelligence, it is sensible that a wizard born of orcs has to be smarter in comparison to his race's average than a human or other non-Int-penalty has to be. An "average" Int score of 11 is sufficient for, say, a human, but average isn't enough for an orc. A wizard with 9 Int is a commoner with some extra proficiencies and a good Will save.

It makes sense, then, that the great orcish wizards need the 17 base Int, quite the outlier indeed, while humans can become practical gods among men from an above-average-but-not-racial-genius Int score of 15. The Orc is just as smart as the human, but significantly smarter in relation to his species.

... That said, higher ability scores don't matter TOO much. If I understood right that you are trying to AVOID gishing, you're still in luck; no wizard I know would make a fuss about having a larger carrying capacity, and Str can still be your dump stat.

[Shadowscale]

The above posters are correct that you don't *need* high Int to be an effective wizard... Er, assuming a conveniently stocked/prevalent magic mart or wondrous item crafting feat investment, anyway. As it is the case that not all DMs are perfect in this, it's recommended that you still try to pump your starting Int higher.

It really makes sense, too. If orcs have a racial penalty to intelligence, it is sensible that a wizard born of orcs has to be smarter in comparison to his race's average than a human or other non-Int-penalty has to be. An "average" Int score of 11 is sufficient for, say, a human, but average isn't enough for an orc. A wizard with 9 Int is a commoner with some extra proficiencies and a good Will save.

It makes sense, then, that the great orcish wizards need the 17 base Int, quite the outlier indeed, while humans can become practical gods among men from an above-average-but-not-racial-genius Int score of 15. The Orc is just as smart as the human, but significantly smarter in relation to his species.

... That said, higher ability scores don't matter TOO much. If I understood right that you are trying to AVOID gishing, you're still in luck; no wizard I know would make a fuss about having a larger carrying capacity, and Str can still be your dump stat.
I think you really understand what I'm going for, that was essentially the back story I was building into the character due to wizards not being common in orcish society. I was thinking along the lines of a transumuter who the tribe keeps around as the tactical genius and to provide buffs to the hoard in wars.
Would the racial paragon help at all? I liked its flavor of them being smarter and less blindly chaotic evil as the rest of their race? Since I wasn't actually trying to gish past the point of maybe I just happen to have a battle axe or something or longsword instead of the wizard's weapon list?

[Vrock_Summoner]

If you're not planning to gish, it's not worth it at all. Longbow proficiency might be amazing, actually, but certainly less amazing than losing spell levels since you aren't intending to gish, and nothing else the Paragon level gives you is really worth much (not to mention that what it does can generally be covered by gear or spells incredibly cheaply if you really want the benefits).

I think there are some nice options available more easily and thematically to the orc populace, but I'm AFB so I can't think of them. I'll be back in a few hours.

[Spore]

I may sound a tad bit tippyesque here but wouldn't a smart enough wizard transform his mortal vessel into something more suitable for an wielder of the arcane? If they're smart enough to know and perform Polymorph spells, they are probably seeing that polymorphing them into something just as badass and less stupid would be a viable option.

[Slipperychicken]

Baring the conversation if an Orc can even live long enough to be a wizard I was wondering if there would be anyway to build an effective one?

1. Have Int >=17 before racial modifiers.

2. Play a wizard. You won't even notice the difference.


Also, if you're using point-buy, that +4 strength means you can dump it as hard as you want, and put the proceeds into Int and Con.


I may sound a tad bit tippyesque here but wouldn't a smart enough wizard transform his mortal vessel into something more suitable for an wielder of the arcane? If they're smart enough to know and perform Polymorph spells, they are probably seeing that polymorphing them into something just as badass and less stupid would be a viable option.

Maybe our wizard doesn't want to change his race because of social pressure (i.e. his friends might shun him if he "betrays" his race). Or he's already internalized his racial identity to the point that changing permanently wouldn't feel right. Or he's been convinced that Orcs are the master race.

[Shadowscale]

If you're not planning to gish, it's not worth it at all. Longbow proficiency might be amazing, actually, but certainly less amazing than losing spell levels since you aren't intending to gish, and nothing else the Paragon level gives you is really worth much (not to mention that what it does can generally be covered by gear or spells incredibly cheaply if you really want the benefits).

I think there are some nice options available more easily and thematically to the orc populace, but I'm AFB so I can't think of them. I'll be back in a few hours.

Alright, I was actually curious if their were any fitting abilities, substitutions, feats or the like to take which would help with a build or flavor? Especially if their happens to be anything specific to the race.

1. Have Int >=17 before racial modifiers.

2. Play a wizard. You won't even notice the difference.


Also, if you're using point-buy, that +4 strength means you can dump it as hard as you want, and put the proceeds into Int and Con.
Would that actually help a point by system around to equaling out to playing a race that has neither a bonus or penalty to strength or intelligence? Just curious...

[Inevitability]

If you're going for 8 strength and 16 intelligence, humans have a slight advantage. I'm assuming here that +2 con from water orc cancels out the -2 wis and charisma.