What if Miko had leaned a few inches to the left?

[Chessecakeman]

When Miko killed Shojo, Hinjo comments that they would all be screwed if Miko "leaned a few inches to the left" (411 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0411.html))

Just how screwed would they be?

This is my interpretation of what would happen at this point:


Hinjo, Roy, Belkar, and Miko immediately get killed by the blast from destroying the gate.
Hinjo and Roy both get resurrected, Belkar... maybe, Miko... probably so she could stand trial.
Xykon and company sees the blast happen and concludes that the gate has been destroyed. Decides to immediately go after Girard's gate.
Xykon goes to the correct place of Girard's gate because he has the diary with the correct coordinates.
The OotS + a legion of Paladins goes to the wrong place to try to head off Xykon. (Remember, no more gate means no more oath according to Hinjo)
It may take weeks for the OotS to find the correct coordinates.



Would Xykon have been able to defeat the alive and fully functional Girard's pyramid + Draketooth family? (Remember no subplot of having to bring the group together means no familicide)

If so, would he have time to cast the ritual on the gate?

[jedipilot24]

When Miko killed Shojo, Hinjo comments that they would all be screwed if Miko "leaned a few inches to the left" (411 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0411.html))

Just how screwed would they be?

This is my interpretation of what would happen at this point:


Hinjo, Roy, Belkar, and Miko immediately get killed by the blast from destroying the gate.
Hinjo and Roy both get resurrected, Belkar... maybe, Miko... probably so she could stand trial.
Xykon and company sees the blast happen and concludes that the gate has been destroyed. Decides to immediately go after Girard's gate.
Xykon goes to the correct place of Girard's gate because he has the diary with the correct coordinates.
The OotS + a legion of Paladins goes to the wrong place to try to head off Xykon. (Remember, no more gate means no more oath according to Hinjo)
It may take weeks for the OotS to find the correct coordinates.



Would Xykon have been able to defeat the alive and fully functional Girard's pyramid + Draketooth family? (Remember no subplot of having to bring the group together means no familicide)

If so, would he have time to cast the ritual on the gate?

As a lich Xykon is immune to most of the Draketooth repertoire. And knowing that Draketooth was an Illusionist means that Xykon and Redcloak would be packing Rings of True Seeing, which eliminates the rest of the Draketooth repertoire.
An epic Lich Sorcerer and a Cleric with 8th level spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html) would roll right over the Draketooth clan and their defenses.
And with their enemies at the wrong coordinates, Team Evil would have more than enough time to clear out the pyramid and complete the ritual.

So yes, Hinjo was more right than even he knew.

[Anarion]

Roy would have survived the explosion I think. He was at full hit points. Belkar maybe, maybe not. All the Order are pretty high level though, so I think they could both have lived. Hinjo would get raised, Miko probably not. I agree with the idea that Xykon would end up at Girard's gate and probably crush them, although something to consider is that they would have the full hobgoblin army at that point. Originally when discussing plans, Xykon had been leaning towards conquering the 8 kingdoms and not crossing the oceans, so it's possible that they would have gone to Kraagor's gate instead, and we'd now be watching the hobgoblin siege of dwarven lands.

Also if you want to go really deep, what happens to Belkar if Mr. Scruffy is killed and the Mark of Justice gets removed without his narrative epiphany?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

When Miko killed Shojo, Hinjo comments that they would all be screwed if Miko "leaned a few inches to the left" (411 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0411.html))

Just how screwed would they be?

This is my interpretation of what would happen at this point:


Hinjo, Roy, Belkar, and Miko immediately get killed by the blast from destroying the gate.
Hinjo and Roy both get resurrected, Belkar... maybe, Miko... probably so she could stand trial.
Xykon and company sees the blast happen and concludes that the gate has been destroyed. Decides to immediately go after Girard's gate.
Xykon goes to the correct place of Girard's gate because he has the diary with the correct coordinates.
The OotS + a legion of Paladins goes to the wrong place to try to head off Xykon. (Remember, no more gate means no more oath according to Hinjo)
It may take weeks for the OotS to find the correct coordinates.



Would Xykon have been able to defeat the alive and fully functional Girard's pyramid + Draketooth family? (Remember no subplot of having to bring the group together means no familicide)

If so, would he have time to cast the ritual on the gate?
So, I would say that Roy would probably have survived, similar to how O-Chul was able to survive. I'm not sure which gate Xykon would go to; it depends on whether or not he wants to remain with the army. It is possible that Redcloak would try and continue to attack Azure City anyway, since the Gate is not the only reason he has to attack. However, Xykon would probably be able to defeat the Draketooths fairly easily since he is undead and a spellcaster.

[David Argall]

The basic answer is that this is Story, and things that ruin the story simply can't happen, no matter how reasonable they are. Here, we are talking about removing a lot of dramatic scenes, ending the story prematurely, and giving it a poor ending. So Miko would be quite unable to harm the Gate at that time.
If we allow "reality" to rule, she could destroy it of course, but other factors come into play.
After the Gate was destroyed, Team Evil still kicked back for most of a year. That we are given "reasons" for this does not negate the major chance that they would have seen the explosion and decided they needed to check just to be sure, followed by taking a vacation while they ruled the city, and the party tried to re-organize.
We are told Girrard was crazy paranoid, yet he was supposed to just leave a major hole in his defenses that any undead could walk thru? We know well of powerful vampires and other reasons for him to either research an illusion that fools undead, or to put in some other strong defenses. We don't see this in text because there is no need to. No matter how much or little it bothers Malack, he is off-camera at the time, and should be. So it is highly likely there were anti-undead defenses that would have slowed X down.
Twice now we have seen dead-man switches, where "better the gate be destroyed rather than fall into the wrong hands" is the ruling logic, and in the other two cases, we have no good reason to assume there was no switch. So there is a good chance that when X came blasting thru, he would been caught in a blast that at least delayed him, and could easily destroy him. [His hidey-hole would also be in the blast, and it or Redcloak would have likely been destroyed.]
So if Miko had destroyed the Gate early, it would not have been good, but it would not have been "game over".

[Newwby]

Also if you want to go really deep, what happens to Belkar if Mr. Scruffy is killed and the Mark of Justice gets removed without his narrative epiphany?

Likely we'd see the old Belkar, the one that was less of a team player, in the present strips (however things had turned out since). Assuming a similar low point (perhaps even more likely given the gate explosion taking out half or most of the order) of party population and Roy's moment of depression, maybe Belkar wouldn't have been willing to make him snap out of it and would have just let Roy give up.

Of course if Roy had survived the blast and hadn't spend so long in the heavens, would he still be as prone to wanting to give up at a low point? Prior to his death Roy was very gung-ho about defeating Xykon whatever the cost.

[Chessecakeman]

The basic answer is that this is Story, and things that ruin the story simply can't happen, no matter how reasonable they are.

I agree and disagree with this. I agree in the sense of traditional storytelling. Obviously the story is plotted out in advance and we are basically a train riding along the tracks of that story.

However, as a Dungeon Master in D&D you have to cope with things not going to way you planned, sometimes in a major way. You may have a story all laid out complete with characters and maps but some actions of your PCs take it in a different direction. A good DM will go with the flow. A bad DM will force their players to stay on that railroad no matter what, even if they have to pull out every single Deus Ex Machina and made-up spell they can think of.

I realize that OotS is a comic and is more of a traditional story. But for fun, and to keep the DMs of the community on their toes, I'm curious how the story would progress. It doesn't have to end right there, it just means it's different from what was originally planned.

As for the other responses...

I don't know if Roy would have survived back then. He's gained a few levels since strip 411... either way it wouldn't matter as I'm sure he would be resurrected pretty quickly either by the Azure City clerics or Durkon himself. O'chul is obviously high level as he was able to resist Xykon's symbol of insanity. Was he higher than Roy at the time?

And we know that Xykon would have went to Girard's Gate after going to Azure City because of the Oracle. I don't think Xykon would have been interested at all in Azure city if he didn't have to go there. (He even mentions something to the affect of "I bet it's probably sanctified or something, ew.")

I would hope that the Draketooth's would see the problem with undead attacking the pyramid and prepared some traps accordingly. Ultimately I see it going the same was as with Durokon. Not an easy victory for Xykon but a victory nonetheless.

As for Belkar... at this point he hasn't gained any real attachment to Mr. Scruffy, and wouldn't have gone through his character development. So if he were resurrected I think Roy would just trick him into tagging along by promising more murder for him. Do you think the Mark of Justice persists through death? And if it did, would Hinjo take it off of him still?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I don't know if Roy would have survived back then. He's gained a few levels since strip 411... either way it wouldn't matter as I'm sure he would be resurrected pretty quickly either by the Azure City clerics or Durkon himself. O'chul is obviously high level as he was able to resist Xykon's symbol of insanity. Was he higher than Roy at the time?
The GEEKERY thread has Roy listed as 13 at that point, IIRC. And O-Chul was also mid-level, but he had a CON score in the 20s, so it's hard to tell who would have done better.


And we know that Xykon would have went to Girard's Gate after going to Azure City because of the Oracle. I don't think Xykon would have been interested at all in Azure city if he didn't have to go there. (He even mentions something to the affect of "I bet it's probably sanctified or something, ew.")
I had forgotten about that. As far being interested in Azure City, I was referring to Redcloak's interest in it, not Xykon's.

[BobTheDog]

Miko immediately get killed

Not so sure about this. Would the KRACKAKOOM happen before or after Miko went beige? If it happened before, she'd still have her Charisma bonus on saves (assuming the explosion allowed a save). Also, it is likely that she was not at full hit points when she smashed the gate due to fighting Roy and Hinjo the day before.

A final "Miko survives" option, assuming she takes exactly the same damage she took in the actual explosion (and would bleed to death), is that some paladin or cleric who was somewhere else in the castle might manage to reach the throne room before she reached -10.

[Chessecakeman]

Not so sure about this. Would the KRACKAKOOM happen before or after Miko went beige? If it happened before, she'd still have her Charisma bonus on saves (assuming the explosion allowed a save). Also, it is likely that she was not at full hit points when she smashed the gate due to fighting Roy and Hinjo the day before.

A final "Miko survives" option, assuming she takes exactly the same damage she took in the actual explosion (and would bleed to death), is that some paladin or cleric who was somewhere else in the castle might manage to reach the throne room before she reached -10.

I hadn't thought of that, I don't know about whether a save would matter or not, but her HP is probably pretty high, and she would be a higher level than O'Chul since she was the most powerful Paladin.

She may have escaped at that point in the confusion and been a recurring villain for the OotS. Especially if she wasn't shown dead in-comic.

[UsaSatsui]

What about Shojo? I think that the resident clerics, after they sorted out the mess, would raise him first. And since his plan at that point wouldn't have been revealed, I think he would have come back, and explained how Hinjo and Miko attempted a coup (not even really a lie, when you think about it), and that the traitors shouldn't be raised. Roy and Belkar heroically tried to save him, so they should be raised, and for his heroic acts Belkar earns a pardon - I'm sure Shojo could find some other way to give Belkar his "play the game" lesson.

I'm not 100% sure Xykon abandons his march on Azure City. I mean, he's right there. Even if there's no gate to take, he's still got a hobgoblin army he needs to park somewhere, the city is filled with enemies that he knows are trying to stop him, and Redcloak could probably find some way to convince him to do it.

[Amphiox]

Suppose X and RC do go to Girard's Gate and suppose they mow through the Draketeeth like a scythe through wheat. Suppose they walk through the Phantasm unharmed.

Would they have seen through the final, physical trick?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Suppose X and RC do go to Girard's Gate and suppose they mow through the Draketeeth like a scythe through wheat. Suppose they walk through the Phantasm unharmed.

Would they have seen through the final, physical trick?

Interesting question, and yet another thing I forgot. It's hard to tell either way. On one hand, I would say Redcloak and Xykon are pretty intelligent people, and might be able to use their knowledge to see through the trick. Haley might be good a seeing tricks, but we've seen that Redcloak can set them up. On the other hand, without visiting the message in the desert first (since Serini's journal probably has the true location) they might not be prepared for this like the Order was. And I don't think Xykon and Redcloak put many skill points in Knowledge (Architecture)! :smalltongue:

[David Argall]

Suppose X and RC do go to Girard's Gate and suppose they mow through the Draketeeth like a scythe through wheat. Suppose they walk through the Phantasm unharmed.

Would they have seen through the final, physical trick?
Probably. Even if you completely fall for a trick like this, you poke around on the hope you are wrong, just like you shake a gauge that says empty on the weak hope it is just stuck. Nale thought he was in a race and didn't take the time for such measures, but Team Evil would have loads of time to waste. And the trick was easily discovered if they looked.

[Chessecakeman]

What about Shojo? I think that the resident clerics, after they sorted out the mess, would raise him first. And since his plan at that point wouldn't have been revealed, I think he would have come back, and explained how Hinjo and Miko attempted a coup (not even really a lie, when you think about it), and that the traitors shouldn't be raised. Roy and Belkar heroically tried to save him, so they should be raised, and for his heroic acts Belkar earns a pardon - I'm sure Shojo could find some other way to give Belkar his "play the game" lesson.

I'm not 100% sure Xykon abandons his march on Azure City. I mean, he's right there. Even if there's no gate to take, he's still got a hobgoblin army he needs to park somewhere, the city is filled with enemies that he knows are trying to stop him, and Redcloak could probably find some way to convince him to do it.

Ok so Shojo might have come back from the dead, seeing as noone is trying to arrest him anymore. I actually do think that Miko could have survived the blast like O'Chul so having her still be around could lead to some interesting encounters in the future.

As for Xykon.. he personally had no interest in the city, and I don't think Redcloak could convince him otherwise. Redcloak also didn't care at all about the hobgoblins at this point. All Xykon cares for is the gates and the ONLY reason he stayed in Azure City for so long was so that Redcloak could attempt to get more information about the other gates. He was even reluctant about that. Redcloak may be pulling some 'invisible strings' on Xykon, but Xykon is a very powerful puppet. Redcloak also doesn't know that the OotS is there, nor does he know that they know about the other gates. He doesn't conclude that until he sees them at Girard's Gate.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

As for Xykon.. he personally had no interest in the city, and I don't think Redcloak could convince him otherwise. Redcloak also didn't care at all about the hobgoblins at this point. All Xykon cares for is the gates and the ONLY reason he stayed in Azure City for so long was so that Redcloak could attempt to get more information about the other gates. He was even reluctant about that. Redcloak may be pulling some 'invisible strings' on Xykon, but Xykon is a very powerful puppet. Redcloak also doesn't know that the OotS is there, nor does he know that they know about the other gates. He doesn't conclude that until he sees them at Girard's Gate.
Redcloak could leave Xykon, if he thought it important enough. His motivation for attacking Azure City would be that has a personal grudge against the paladins and that he wants to establish Gobbotopia. As for what control Redcloak has over Xykon, admittedly it would be difficult for him to force Xykon into it, but it would be fairly easy for Redcloak to manipulate him. Also, Xykon didn't begin feeling restless in Azure City until Vaarsuvius attacked, which we know was a deliberate attempt at getting him to move. Before then, he might not have cared as much.

[DaggerPen]

Would Xykon and Redcloak have known that the Gate exploded, or would Miko's signal just have been completely lost after she entered the throne room and never reestablished (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0415.html), leaving them clueless as to the going ons since Miko returned? Would they be able to see the destruction of the tower from a good distance and connect the dots? Depending on when they got there, they might have not actually realized that the Gate was gone and beseiged Azure City regardless.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Would Xykon and Redcloak have known that the Gate exploded, or would Miko's signal just have been completely lost after she entered the throne room and never reestablished (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0415.html), leaving them clueless as to the going ons since Miko returned? Would they be able to see the destruction of the tower from a good distance and connect the dots? Depending on when they got there, they might have not actually realized that the Gate was gone and beseiged Azure City regardless.
Here's what I think:

Since it seems like the throne room was warded against scrying, they probably wouldn't have seen Miko actually the gate. However, once Miko leaves the throne room (propelled by the explosion), Xykon and Redcloak would be able to see her again. Now, they might be able to guess what happened, since they would be seeing the explosion, and they know what the explosion is like, having witnessed one before. However, since scrying on Miko only shows her, their limited viewpoint might not give enough detail.

I think that when they arrive at Azure City, the fact that there would probably be advisable evidence of the explosion, combined with what they saw, would probably lead them to conclude that the Gate exploded. After all, what else would cause an explosion of that magnitude? Then, it all comes down to whether Xykon's want to move on to the next Gate is stronger than Redcloak's want to attack Azure City.

I really need to reread all those strips: I had totally forgotten about all this.

[Chessecakeman]

His motivation for attacking Azure City would be that has a personal grudge against the paladins and that he wants to establish Gobbotopia.

At this point it's more the personal grudge than to establish Gobbotopia. He doesn't particularly care for the hobgoblins until one saves his life during the siege of Azure City. I think Xykon's desire to control a gate would outweigh Redcloak's personal grudge against the paladins, and since he is on a mission from the Dark One to seize control of a gate, I don't think he would stay behind while Xykon went to do just that.

Also, I would think the second the explosion started they would be able to both see it from a distance and see it through the scrying since the throne room blew up and I would imagine the warding would blow up with it.

[UsaSatsui]

Ok so Shojo might have come back from the dead, seeing as noone is trying to arrest him anymore. I actually do think that Miko could have survived the blast like O'Chul so having her still be around could lead to some interesting encounters in the future.
The biggest problem with that theory is that she didn't survive the blast when it actually blew up. Being depowered isn't something that affects her HP, and that's about the only thing she could use to soak a point-blank gate explosion. O-Chul survived it, sure, but I think he has the constitution score of a Sherman tank.


As for Xykon.. he personally had no interest in the city, and I don't think Redcloak could convince him otherwise. Redcloak also didn't care at all about the hobgoblins at this point. All Xykon cares for is the gates and the ONLY reason he stayed in Azure City for so long was so that Redcloak could attempt to get more information about the other gates. He was even reluctant about that. Redcloak may be pulling some 'invisible strings' on Xykon, but Xykon is a very powerful puppet. Redcloak also doesn't know that the OotS is there, nor does he know that they know about the other gates. He doesn't conclude that until he sees them at Girard's Gate.

:redcloak: "Sir, we've marched 37 legions of hobgoblins across this continent, one day's march from the city, and it's not like we can take them with us across the ocean. Plus, the Sapphire Guard will be on our asses, especially with no gate to guard. We really should crush them now, while they're dealing with the aftermath of the explosion."

:xykon: "Eh. Whatever."

Xykon really isn't that hard to manipulate, and Redcloak sure as heck isn't going to put his vendetta against the Sapphire Guard off when he's that close.