0 Level Spells as 1/2 level?

[ZhanStrider]

Hey playgrounders!

In a few places (Magic item creation) 0 level spells are considered 1/2 level spells for certain purposes. Is this the case in any other places you can think of? Some classes have abilities related to spell level and I am trying to figure out if 0 levels are worth anything

Thanks

[Inevitability]

If I'm not mistaken, it counts only as 1/2 level if it specifically says so.

[Chronos]

They're also considered 1/2 level for how much space they take up in a wizard's spellbook. There's no general rule on the matter, though, so if a feat or ability doesn't say otherwise, zero means zero.

[Bakkan]

In fact, 0th-level spells are the same as 1st level spells as far as space in a spellbook goes.

I really can't think of any places otehr than magic item creation where cantrips are considered to be level 1/2 spells. Most of the time you'd round down anyway, so it wouldn't make a difference.

[ZhanStrider]

In fact, 0th-level spells are the same as 1st level spells as far as space in a spellbook goes.

I really can't think of any places otehr than magic item creation where cantrips are considered to be level 1/2 spells. Most of the time you'd round down anyway, so it wouldn't make a difference.

This is a fair and accurate point. Damnit.

[TuggyNE]

I really can't think of any places otehr than magic item creation where cantrips are considered to be level 1/2 spells. Most of the time you'd round down anyway, so it wouldn't make a difference.

Along those lines, there's actually at least one spot where cantrips/orisons have the same crafting cost as first-level spells: XP costs are 1 for both 0th- and 1st-level scrolls.

[Devils_Advocate]

I'm pretty sure that that rule also applies to Rings of Spell Storing. (It would be pretty wacky if it didn't, at any rate.)

[TuggyNE]

I'm pretty sure that that rule also applies to Rings of Spell Storing. (It would be pretty wacky if it didn't, at any rate.)

It doesn't. Uh oh.

[Jack_Simth]

It doesn't. Uh oh.
Not really all that big of a deal. For 18,000k, you can put as many 0-level spells in there as you have days of downtime * your 0th level spell slots. It's really not going to break most games to have 200 copies of Cure Minor Wounds, 200 copies of Detect Magic, 200 copies of Ray of Frost, 200 copies of Acid Splash, 200 copies of Guidance, 200 copies of Resistance, 200 copies of Mage Hand, and 200 copies of Prestidigitation on hand after a month of down-time.

[NoACWarrior]

Not really all that big of a deal. For 18,000k, you can put as many 0-level spells in there as you have days of downtime * your 0th level spell slots. It's really not going to break most games to have 200 copies of Cure Minor Wounds, 200 copies of Detect Magic, 200 copies of Ray of Frost, 200 copies of Acid Splash, 200 copies of Guidance, 200 copies of Resistance, 200 copies of Mage Hand, and 200 copies of Prestidigitation on hand after a month of down-time.

Hmm so then would you allow a 12th level Cleric to have 25 years preparing lvl 0 spells in all of his daily slots just to store them in the ring of spell storing?
Lets see how many cure minor wounds we could get: (assuming 16 wis)
from true 0th level slots you could prepare 54750 lvl 0 spells, another 63875 from your lvl 1 slots, another 54750 from your lvl 2 slots, another 54750 from your lvl 3 slots, another 36500 from your lvl 4 slots, another 36500 from your lvl 5 slots, and 27375 from your lvl 6 slots.

Thats a total of around 328k lvl 0 spells.

Action economy would rule that these 300k + slots are worthless in combat but can be used on multiple occasions to heal the party up or destroy barriers 3 hp at a time.

With the average party facing all thier HP drained from a full day of fighting, 4 characters at level 12 having around 100 hp each on average, you only need to heal 400hp a day. that is over 821.25 continuous days of adventuring without needing any other out of combat healing. Sure the cleric wasted 25 years of his life preparing for the worst case scenario, but what a way to go out in.

[Seer_of_Heart]

Hmm so then would you allow a 12th level Cleric to have 25 years preparing lvl 0 spells in all of his daily slots just to store them in the ring of spell storing?
Lets see how many cure minor wounds we could get: (assuming 16 wis)
from true 0th level slots you could prepare 54750 lvl 0 spells, another 63875 from your lvl 1 slots, another 54750 from your lvl 2 slots, another 54750 from your lvl 3 slots, another 36500 from your lvl 4 slots, another 36500 from your lvl 5 slots, and 27375 from your lvl 6 slots.

Thats a total of around 328k lvl 0 spells.

Action economy would rule that these 300k + slots are worthless in combat but can be used on multiple occasions to heal the party up or destroy barriers 3 hp at a time.

With the average party facing all thier HP drained from a full day of fighting, 4 characters at level 12 having around 100 hp each on average, you only need to heal 400hp a day. that is over 821.25 continuous days of adventuring without needing any other out of combat healing. Sure the cleric wasted 25 years of his life preparing for the worst case scenario, but what a way to go out in.

Especially if you're a dragonwrought kobold or something and want to start venerable. :smallbiggrin:

[TuggyNE]

Not really all that big of a deal. For 18,000k, you can put as many 0-level spells in there as you have days of downtime * your 0th level spell slots. It's really not going to break most games to have 200 copies of Cure Minor Wounds, 200 copies of Detect Magic, 200 copies of Ray of Frost, 200 copies of Acid Splash, 200 copies of Guidance, 200 copies of Resistance, 200 copies of Mage Hand, and 200 copies of Prestidigitation on hand after a month of down-time.

Well, unless you include Sanctum Spell, which I think would let you do silly stuff like putting NI cure light wounds or lesser orb of force in.

[Jack_Simth]

Action economy would rule that these 300k + slots are worthless in combat but can be used on multiple occasions to heal the party up or destroy barriers 3 hp at a time.There are numerous ways to do both of those that don't require nearly the time investment. Elemental Summoning (or Minor Shapeshift, if you're crazy) and a +1 Vampiric weapon (Magic item compendium property, +2 equivalent) changes the time cost out for a feat cost, has nearly the same GP cost, and has much the same effect (summon a critter, hit it with the dagger, heal 1d6 hp; repeat)... plus some trapfinding, a disposable flank-buddy for the rogue, and a potentially useful weapon. Barriers don't much matter when you've got nigh-unlimited time to burn through them (Full-BAB party member pulls out a two-handed weapon and power attacks for full on a full attack - much faster than the 3 hp/round).


Well, unless you include Sanctum Spell, which I think would let you do silly stuff like putting NI cure light wounds or lesser orb of force in.

"Metamagic versions of spells take up storage space equal to their spell level modified by the metamagic feat." - Sanctum spell is a +0 metamagic. Those still take up space as 1st level spells, I think.

[Seer_of_Heart]

"Metamagic versions of spells take up storage space equal to their spell level modified by the metamagic feat." - Sanctum spell is a +0 metamagic. Those still take up space as 1st level spells, I think.

Sanctum spell does specify that the effective level is 1 lower which I think would mean spell level is 1(original)+0(sanctum spell cost)-1(sanctum spell effect)=0 . In other words my head hurts :smallsigh:.

[NoACWarrior]

That makes me dizzy too.... Sanctum spell reducers to toss in lvl 1 reduced spells means you have the near infinite cure light wounds wand for 18k with a caster of 5. oyu could toss in 100k of three different spells and cast spells every hour to make sure they last all day long.

Heck you could cast spells for at least 6 months in that case end to end so that you had full coverage.

Same thing goes for rangers and paladins with sanctum spell - their resist elements and lesser restorations would be pretty broken.

[amalcon]

Why not go really big with the spell storing thing? Gnome Illusionist substitution levels make Silent Image level zero. Stacking Earth Spell, Arcane Thesis, Metamagic School Focus, and Midnight Metamagic (depending on essentia and capacity) on Heightened Silent Image can give you a level 4-8 Silent Image in a level zero slot. A third-level Shadowcraft Mage can turn that into a level 3-7 Evocation or Conjuration (Creation or Summoning). It seems pretty useful to save up an unbounded number of those.

[Seer_of_Heart]

Why not go really big with the spell storing thing? Gnome Illusionist substitution levels make Silent Image level zero. Stacking Earth Spell, Arcane Thesis, Metamagic School Focus, and Midnight Metamagic (depending on essentia and capacity) on Heightened Silent Image can give you a level 4-8 Silent Image in a level zero slot. A third-level Shadowcraft Mage can turn that into a level 3-7 Evocation or Conjuration (Creation or Summoning). It seems pretty useful to save up an unbounded number of those.

Heighten spell changes spell level so I doubt that works, I'm afb though so I could be wrong. Its not like sanctum spell where its costless but the spell effectively changes level making it unclear and confusing.

[WarKitty]

Hmm so then would you allow a 12th level Cleric to have 25 years preparing lvl 0 spells in all of his daily slots just to store them in the ring of spell storing?
Lets see how many cure minor wounds we could get: (assuming 16 wis)
from true 0th level slots you could prepare 54750 lvl 0 spells, another 63875 from your lvl 1 slots, another 54750 from your lvl 2 slots, another 54750 from your lvl 3 slots, another 36500 from your lvl 4 slots, another 36500 from your lvl 5 slots, and 27375 from your lvl 6 slots.

Thats a total of around 328k lvl 0 spells.

Action economy would rule that these 300k + slots are worthless in combat but can be used on multiple occasions to heal the party up or destroy barriers 3 hp at a time.

With the average party facing all thier HP drained from a full day of fighting, 4 characters at level 12 having around 100 hp each on average, you only need to heal 400hp a day. that is over 821.25 continuous days of adventuring without needing any other out of combat healing. Sure the cleric wasted 25 years of his life preparing for the worst case scenario, but what a way to go out in.

How much would said item cost on the open market?

[NoACWarrior]

How much would said item cost on the open market?

You mean the ring empty or fully loaded with 328.5k level 0 spells?

empty its 18k.

Fully loaded... maybe equivalent to paying a lvl 1 caster for the amount of years to put the spells in.... Hiring that NPC is 1 gold per day... Assume 10 spells per day
And it would take 32850 days for the spell casting NPC to fill it up with that many spells... around 51k for that ring.

You are probably better off with doing the 25 year thing as a lvl 12 character before the start of a campaign.

[WarKitty]

You mean the ring empty or fully loaded with 328.5k level 0 spells?

empty its 18k.

Fully loaded... maybe equivalent to paying a lvl 1 caster for the amount of years to put the spells in.... Hiring that NPC is 1 gold per day... Assume 10 spells per day
And it would take 32850 days for the spell casting NPC to fill it up with that many spells... around 51k for that ring.

You are probably better off with doing the 25 year thing as a lvl 12 character before the start of a campaign.

I was actually thinking of if maybe a temple would consider selling those things (maybe not quite so fully loaded) as an expensive item.

[NoACWarrior]

Ah thats a good idea - make tithing by worshiper spell casters in the form of lvl 0 spells, that would be really nifty from both a story standpoint and to offer the PCs an item which has magic powers without the normal charge limits.

[Seer_of_Heart]

I would like to add that there are many spells that are first level on other lists (and then brought to 0) that could be combined with this trick. Look at this guide for higher level spells to use http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=12661.

[ZhanStrider]

Ah thats a good idea - make tithing by worshiper spell casters in the form of lvl 0 spells, that would be really nifty from both a story standpoint and to offer the PCs an item which has magic powers without the normal charge limits.

This thread has gone so much farther than I expected.

[NoACWarrior]

Ah sorry went on a tangent there - this thread has spawned another thread too ;)
What a great time.

Anyways, I'd like to know if there's anything about a pearl of power regarding lvl 0 spells.
Can a lvl 0 spell pearl of power be made, what would the cost be?

Edit: Nevermind, the SRD says that its 1/2 level value.

0-Level Spells When multiplying spell levels to determine value, 0-level spells should be treated as ½ level.
Also to note pearls of power, unless the "greater double" version cannot be used on lower level spells then designed, and no lvl 0 pearl is listed.

I did however find that bonus spell is an entry in the estimated magic item gold piece values table costing spell level squared x 1000gp.
But with that formula - a lvl 0 pearl of power would cost 0.25 x 1000gp or 250 gold.

Is this right?

[SinsI]

Hmm so then would you allow a 12th level Cleric to have 25 years preparing lvl 0 spells in all of his daily slots just to store them in the ring of spell storing?

Don't be greedy. Make yourself a command-activated custom item of Cure Minor Wounds. 900 gp (or less, if you restrict it to certain alignment/class) - and your whole party is completely healed out of combat.

[The Prince of Cats]

I really can't think of any places otehr than magic item creation where cantrips are considered to be level 1/2 spells. Most of the time you'd round down anyway, so it wouldn't make a difference.
Don't half the 'round down' examples also say 'minimum 1' as well?

That said, any wizard or cleric wearing a ring filled with level-0 spells is just spending 18k to be as powerful as a pathfinder wizard or cleric and few people will ever argue that unlimited cantrips / orisons would be game-breaking on their own. I mean, a damage-dealing cantrip tends to be about as powerful as a fighter's weapon or a warlock's eldritch blast. Also, 1hp per turn is just a way for the DM to say 'yeah, whatever, you are all healed up' before the next encounter. In practice though, healing your fighter ally for 50hp is five minutes of boredom for the cleric.

[ZhanStrider]

Ah sorry went on a tangent there - this thread has spawned another thread too ;)
What a great time.

Anyways, I'd like to know if there's anything about a pearl of power regarding lvl 0 spells.
Can a lvl 0 spell pearl of power be made, what would the cost be?

Edit: Nevermind, the SRD says that its 1/2 level value.

Also to note pearls of power, unless the "greater double" version cannot be used on lower level spells then designed, and no lvl 0 pearl is listed.

I did however find that bonus spell is an entry in the estimated magic item gold piece values table costing spell level squared x 1000gp.
But with that formula - a lvl 0 pearl of power would cost 0.25 x 1000gp or 250 gold.

Is this right?

That seems right. Where's the other thread that was spawned? And whatcha think the odds of convincing a DM to let the Jade Pheonix Mage's "Arcane Wrath" ability with 0 level spells as 1/2 level are?

[NoACWarrior]

That seems right. Where's the other thread that was spawned? And whatcha think the odds of convincing a DM to let the Jade Pheonix Mage's "Arcane Wrath" ability with 0 level spells as 1/2 level are?

The other thread was the sanctum spell abuse of its drawback.

I think you would be allowed to use the 0 level spells, but they simply wouldn't do any damage with arcane wrath. You'd just get the +4 to hit and 0 x 1d10 damage.

[Socksy]

Don't half the 'round down' examples also say 'minimum 1' as well?

That said, any wizard or cleric wearing a ring filled with level-0 spells is just spending 18k to be as powerful as a pathfinder wizard or cleric and few people will ever argue that unlimited cantrips / orisons would be game-breaking on their own. I mean, a damage-dealing cantrip tends to be about as powerful as a fighter's weapon or a warlock's eldritch blast. Also, 1hp per turn is just a way for the DM to say 'yeah, whatever, you are all healed up' before the next encounter. In practice though, healing your fighter ally for 50hp is five minutes of boredom for the cleric.

Pathfinder Clerics/Oracles get Bleed and Stabilise instead of Inflict/Cure Minor Wounds for precisely this reason, actually. I'm not sure about Druids (I've only joined one PF game, I'm playing an Oracle), but I'd suppose it's the same.

[NoACWarrior]

Pathfinder Clerics/Oracles get Bleed and Stabilise instead of Inflict/Cure Minor Wounds for precisely this reason, actually. I'm not sure about Druids (I've only joined one PF game, I'm playing an Oracle), but I'd suppose it's the same.

Yeah - the whole limited level 0 spells are kinda bunk anyways. Paizo gets the small but not game changing nature of lvl 0 spells and them actually helping enhance the game experience.

Wizards tried to do this with Shadow magic - but it was so mehish and not as flexible people have largely ignored the potential.

[Chronos]

Quoth SinsI:

Don't be greedy. Make yourself a command-activated custom item of Cure Minor Wounds. 900 gp (or less, if you restrict it to certain alignment/class) - and your whole party is completely healed out of combat.
Well, if we're going to assume a Santa Clause DM who lets you make custom magic items at whatever cost you choose, then why not assume an item of at-will Wish for 1 GP? That's exactly as rules-legal as the item you proposed.

[SinsI]

Well, if we're going to assume a Santa Clause DM who lets you make custom magic items at whatever cost you choose, then why not assume an item of at-will Wish for 1 GP? That's exactly as rules-legal as the item you proposed.

It is the standard price. 0.5*1*1800 = 900 gp for command activated 0-th level spell item.

You are paying extra compared to a wand (1800 multiplier vs 750) in exchange for unlimited castings (instead of 50) and no class restrictions on usage.