The new art style [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Zmeoaice

2014-03-31, 12:25 PM

Zejety

2014-03-31, 12:29 PM

I tentatively agree. "Tentatively", because I don't trust myself enough to be sure that this is just me not being used to it yet.

But yes, the hands bother me. The trident fingers worked for stick figures but they look kind of creepy and disfigured now. It also looks weirder how they overlap with held objects now. It was easier to rationalize it as abstraction earlier.

oppyu

2014-03-31, 12:29 PM

Big fan of the noodle limbs and general art-upgradiness, the new font is growing on me and I'll get used to the pitchfork hands.

Zejety

2014-03-31, 12:32 PM

Big fan of the noodle limbs and general art-upgradiness, the new font is growing on me and I'll get used to the pitchfork hands.

Oh I had not noticed the new font. I like it. :)

Hjorth

2014-03-31, 12:34 PM

I don't mind the coloured-in hands and arms, honestly. It does look a little odd to me now, having been used to just outlines for so long, but I think it's an appropriate change - especially considering how much more detailed the art has steadily gotten. I don't know if it would have gotten to a point where the black outline arms/hands would be looking out of place, but I definitely don't think this looks out of place, either.

Durkon's boots are really cool. I also love how their feet are being drawn in perspective every now and again, like Durkon's Mama in the third panel on the first page. It looks great, I think.

BobTheDog

2014-03-31, 12:35 PM

zimmerwald1915

2014-03-31, 12:42 PM

As of #974, we can see a major change to the art style, specifically giving outlines and coloring to the arms and legs.

Personally, I don't think this is a good choice. The arms and legs are too skinny to add outlines, along with the trident-like hands they had. It would have worked better if they had thicker limbs and fingers, but that would have been a bigger art change, and they wouldn't really be stick dolls anymore (although the new design is kind of changing that anyhow).

Plus, I don't think having "kind of legs" on giant boots looks worse than stick legs on giant boots. But overall, I'm glad Durkon finally has footwear.

What do you think?
As I posted in the main comic thread, unless this change was prompted by a massive loss in accumulated art resources necessitating a total rebuild from scratch, I don't really see the point of changing from stick figures to noodle people. It seems like each strip would take a lot more work. For example, depending on how the Giant does things, either Durkon's skin-tight sleeves would need to overlap exactly over his arms, or his wrists would have to extend believably from the sleeves and pant legs. I'm not saying the Giant doesn't pull it off, whichever way he does it, just that it seems like a lot more work for not much gain.

I also don't see the need for outlines on the stick-limbs. Recoloring the stick limbs from black to flesh-colored and putting bulkier sleeves over them would have been easier for a number of reasons. For example, I can imagine the new hands being formed one of two ways: either the Giant overlaps the objects he uses to create the hands and then uses the union1 tool to make one path out of them, or he draws the whole thing as one object from scratch. Either way seems more time-consuming than the old method of just placing one path on top of another. [EDIT: As Grey Watcher pointed out in the main thread, some characters, like Xykon, have had their limbs colored something other than black for a long while.]

But really, the style change is just jarring, since it's more drastic and fundamental than any we've seen before. The Order of the Stick has evolved over the years, to be sure, and mostly for the better. But it has always hitherto been a stick figure comic and it is not that anymore. It's probably still good. But it will never be the same.

1I use Inkscape; Adobe Illustrator may use different terminology.

Onyavar

2014-03-31, 12:43 PM

cobaltstarfire

2014-03-31, 12:44 PM

I rather like it.

I didn't notice at first but I could tell something was different, now someone pointed it out.

I think it gives everything a little bit more weight, while still sticking pretty close to the style.

Sgt. Cookie

2014-03-31, 12:49 PM

Hm. The font looks nice, but the limb change is rather jarring. Maybe I'll get used to it, maybe not. We'll just have to see, I guess.

Neosmith

2014-03-31, 12:55 PM

I'm not really bothered by the trident fingers. Rich clearly wants the characters to retain their inner 'stickiness'. To make them more human-like would probably deviate a bit too much from the original stick figure idea.

I admit it is a little creepy. But then again, a lot of drawn characters don't have the full five finger treatment.

Osmium

2014-03-31, 01:01 PM

I'm dubious about the new style.

The new style represents a drastic move away from OotS's previously semi-schematic art style. As others have remarked, the limbs are probably the most jarring; the previous black lines I always interpreted schematically, and now they're flesh-coloured.

I always liked OotS's semi-schematic style for its ability to express only what was necessary, leaving the remainder to the imagination. By contrast, this seems a little too explicit. Footwear isn't usually relevant to the plot of OotS, but now it's there people are discussing it. etc. etc. The transition from a highly schematic character model to a more geometric one feels ill.

Ultimately, you can categorise basically all works of fiction by how much information they give the reader. Novels offer the least, painting scenes in the reader's mind only with the words the author chooses to offer. Films and modern video games go the other way, offering excesses of detail and leaving nothing to the imagination. The middle ground is interesting for its ability to compromise between these two extremes. Examples of the middle ground would be old low-resolution video games, which have low-resolution sprites left to the mind's interpretation... and comics. With this art upgrade, OotS is moved more to the right of the scale. I feel like this increase in detail and non-schematic representation tells me a little too much.

All that aside, I'm a bit iffy on the font. How should I say it? It doesn't feel like a font Vaarsuvius would choose. It's fine now, but when we first see that font on a speech bubble attached to V it's going to feel as unnatural as if V was suddenly given Durkon's accent.

Was the increase in resolution driven by the font issues, or was it something that was going to happen anyway? Hrrm.

SaintRidley

2014-03-31, 01:03 PM

Part of the reason for doing the change now is probably due to the fact that this is the first new book since Snips, Snails and Dragon Tales. We got a preview of the style there - it's the 'enhanced stick' style used in the Julio story. Rich wants consistency within the book, so BRitF couldn't feature the new style without becoming a huge pain in the ass. So we get it now, at the time of a new book's start, a couple years after the style was previewed to us.

GreenZ

2014-03-31, 01:04 PM

Pros:

Holy perspective, even just the boots look really nice.
New motion lines look good.
New text font also looks slick.
Details everywhere! From little cracks to shading on the stone, really great.
Durkon's armor isn't just a silver square!
Sleeves for people without robes! Finally non-casters get something nice! :smallbiggrin:

Cons:

The trident fingers. It isn't that the fingers were necessarily 'good' before but the new style makes them feel more out of place than previously.

So I'd say that the new art style is pretty much worth it overall.

3WhiteFox3

2014-03-31, 01:06 PM

I tentatively like this, I think it gives the characters more weight and gravitas. I feel that the art looks fuller and more detailed. I can see the point about the new arms, but it personally doesn't bother me much right now. That might change, and I do think it's a bit jarring, but I want to wait and see if I can look past the arms for now and enjoy the new style for what it is.

Also, while I can't speak for The Giant, I imagine the reason behind this is to give OOTS a fresh look. New forums, new book, new art style, a new development for the least developed member of the order. I think it's supposed to make it clear that things aren't how they used to be, this is something new. The somewhat jarring look to the arms might even be intentional, to shake up the familiar and get people to think about the new direction the comic is taking. That's my speculation.

Bulldog Psion

2014-03-31, 01:06 PM

I like it alot.

Old style - excellent.
New style - super excellent.

Keep it coming, Mr. Burlew! :smallbiggrin:

Neosmith

2014-03-31, 01:07 PM

I'm really curious to see how Belkar's hobbit-feet will look under the new style. There's gotta be some alteration there.

Elder Tsofu

2014-03-31, 01:08 PM

As I posted in the main comic thread, unless this change was prompted by a massive loss in accumulated art resources necessitating a total rebuild from scratch, I don't really see the point of changing from stick figures to noodle people. It seems like each strip would take a lot more work. For example, depending on how the Giant does things, either Durkon's skin-tight sleeves would need to overlap exactly over his arms, or his wrists would have to extend believably from the sleeves and pant legs. I'm not saying the Giant doesn't pull it off, whichever way he does it, just that it seems like a lot more work for not much gain.

I also don't see the need for outlines on the stick-limbs. Recoloring the stick limbs from black to flesh-colored and putting bulkier sleeves over them would have been easier for a number of reasons. For example, I can imagine the new hands being formed one of two ways: either the Giant overlaps the objects he uses to create the hands and then uses the union1 tool to make one path out of them, or he draws the whole thing as one object from scratch. Either way seems more time-consuming than the old method of just placing one path on top of another. [EDIT: As Grey Watcher pointed out in the main thread, some characters, like Xykon, have had their limbs colored something other than black for a long while.]

But really, the style change is just jarring, since it's more drastic and fundamental than any we've seen before. The Order of the Stick has evolved over the years, to be sure, and mostly for the better. But it has always hitherto been a stick figure comic and it is not that anymore. It's probably still good. But it will never be the same.

1I use Inkscape; Adobe Illustrator may use different terminology.

A third option if Illustrator is somewhat like Inkscape is just to draw the limbs as you use to (but in colour), duplicate the shape, put it below your coloured shape and increase the thickness of the lines. It is quite easily done, especially if you use hotkeys.

hymie

2014-03-31, 01:09 PM

the new font is growing on me

The new font is AWESOME. I can read the strip again.

Ridureyu

2014-03-31, 01:11 PM

I SAY:

Give it about twenty strips so it doesn't seem "new," and then we can really analyze it.

t209

2014-03-31, 01:13 PM

They had pants. Now, we can finally disprove all of non-stick fan arts :smallamused:.

hymie

2014-03-31, 01:17 PM

While I don't consider myself qualified to judge the art upgrade,.

I, too, do not feel qualified to judge the art changes, but I'm not crazy about them.

For a long time, "Maximum story, minimal art" was itself a topic of conversation, people insisting "The strip can't be good, look at the art. They're stick figures." In my valueless opinion, the new limbs are a surrender to this argument, that the art has to be "better" before the strip can be "good".

I also will admit that I'm afraid that putting more emphasis on the art will put less emphasis on the story and/or more time between updates.

On the other hand, I freely admit that I just don't like change. I suppose the new style will grow on me sooner or later.

Mrc.

2014-03-31, 01:17 PM

Personally, I find that this works especially well in this strip with the only characters being dwarves. Popular fantasy has taught me that dwarves are more stockily built than the likes of humans, so I can definitely see the appeal of having more 'meat' to them, so to speak. Where this might fall down is with the, at least in my mind, skinnier elves and humans. Chunky hands like this might detract somewhat. We shall have to see.

Anarion

2014-03-31, 01:19 PM

I too find the fingers a bit odd, but overall I like the change. The perspective is really good and the characters themselves look beautiful. There's a lot of opportunity for detail here, and I am continually impressed by this comic's ability to convey drama and emotion with its art style.

Crod

2014-03-31, 01:19 PM

I've been reading this comic for 8 years now and first now I suddenly I notice the trident hands. I cannot un-see it. Now every comic looks kinda weird. :smalltongue:

Porthos

2014-03-31, 01:25 PM

I can't really say I'm surprised by the 'new' art style. He's been using it for quite a while on T-shirt designs and various other projects. And the main comic itself received major upgrades in shading over the last 50 some odd strips. And the number of character that had 'solid' limbs, as ooppsed to a singluar line, had been steadily increasing as time went by. They usually symbolized jackets, gloves, and other type of clothing. But it's not like this is unprecedented in the strip proper.

I agree that the hands are the most jarring change, but I figure we'll get used to it soon enough. We'd better because I figure Rich ain't changing it back any time soon.

PS: I told you all that Rich has been moving away from Stick Figure art. But did you listen to me? Nooooo. :smalltongue:

Sunken Valley

2014-03-31, 01:28 PM

While I don't consider myself qualified to judge the art upgrade, I do wonder what was the Giant's motivation for adding color/outlines to the limbs. I think this is by far the most noticeable/sudden change in the comic so far.

Here's hoping we'll get some insight into Rich's reasons for the revamp. Well, one of the reasons is obviously "new book, perfect moment for an upgrade", but I'm more curious about why each new element came into being (such as Roy's skin color changing to make online->book conversion easier [edit: to clarify, Roy's skin color changed way back in book 2 I think, and it's not a major change, just using a more printer-friendly color, IIRC from the Rich's comments in the book]).

I can think of one good reason (other than dispelling pantless Roy).

The comic likely going to finish in 6 years or so. Rich has already said he has plans for "what's next". One thing we can strongly guess about his future work is that it won't be stick people. Therefore Rich is trying to get experience in drawing "less stick figure like" stick figures so he can transition to drawing more real people easily.

ImperatorV

2014-03-31, 01:28 PM

IMO, the hands are fine. The new perspective stuff is great.

I'm a bit worried about the higher detail delaying updates, but hopefully it'll work out.

zimmerwald1915

2014-03-31, 01:32 PM

I can think of one good reason (other than dispelling pantless Roy).

The comic likely going to finish in 6 years or so. Rich has already said he has plans for "what's next". One thing we can strongly guess about his future work is that it won't be stick people. Therefore Rich is trying to get experience in drawing "less stick figure like" stick figures so he can transition to drawing more real people easily.
I'm not sure I buy this, because it implies that the Giant needs to gain experience drawing non-stick figures. I'd imagine he got plenty of such experience at art school, during all that time he didn't spend gazing through telescopes, timing variable stars, and charting asteroid orbits. And if I remember correctly, he's demonstrated great proficiency at non-stick figures at one time or another, just to make the point that he can.

Smolder

2014-03-31, 01:36 PM

PS: I told you all that Rich has been moving away from Stick Figure art. But did you listen to me? Nooooo. :smalltongue:

I kinda thought it would be like Calvin & Hobbes or South Park, where the art in the background improves continuously, but the main characters retain their minimalist style.

Jaxzan Proditor

2014-03-31, 01:37 PM

Overall, I think I like this new style, except the hands do look a little weird. I actually didn't even notice the change until I read this thread.

Sunken Valley

2014-03-31, 01:37 PM

I'm not sure I buy this, because it implies that the Giant needs to gain experience drawing non-stick figures. I'd imagine he got plenty of such experience at art school, during all that time he didn't spend gazing through telescopes, timing variable stars, and charting asteroid orbits. And if I remember correctly, he's demonstrated great proficiency at non-stick figures at one time or another, just to make the point that he can.

Oh I'm sure he does know. But he hasn't had a need to draw non-stick figures frequently in 10 years. Imagine if you were really good at piano but practiced infrequently over a 10 year period. You'd need to get back into shape.

Fitzclowningham

2014-03-31, 01:38 PM

Just wanted to throw in my .02 and say that the hands/arms/legs really don't work for me. Maybe in time they will, but as of now, the wrong is strong.

zimmerwald1915

2014-03-31, 01:39 PM

Oh I'm sure he does know. But he hasn't had a need to draw non-stick figures frequently in 10 years. Imagine if you were really good at piano but practiced infrequently over a 10 year period. You'd need to get back into shape.
Yeah...don't need to imagine :smallredface:

Even then, though, I still don't really buy it. Noodle people aren't all that much more like figures than stick figures are.

ChristianSt

2014-03-31, 01:47 PM

I really think the new art is great. This is really the first time I really noticed an art upgrade without some character commenting. (Though I can't say whether that should be good or bad. Because that only means the older changes were more subtle than now.)

I can't really pinpoint and say "this looks way better than before" - but overall it looks much better to me. I also really like the increased image size :smallsmile:. (Though I didn't noticed that before reading about it in the "new font thread")

CrispyCriminal

2014-03-31, 01:48 PM

Big font and comic size and a new art style. Not bad, but I wonder if this will affect printing costs when the book is finished and ready to roll out.

I like the new style myself, especially the boots. But I guess I saw it coming after SS&DT (the livestock).

And I'm also guessing this means Tarquin will finally get luke'd and we'll see a proper bloody hand stump...didn't look like it would work well in the old arm style (in form of justice anyways).

Fellow

2014-03-31, 01:48 PM

Ah! I knew something was off. I only noticed the trident hands on the dark spirit, truth be told. I sort of expected seeing it there, as non-black hands were the territory of undead Xykon in the past. I think the coloring draws too much attention to the hands: they're usually drawn in the exact same shape, so now they come off as stiff.

I think panels 8 and 10 have it the worst: even with the fancy effects that Rich put in to give them more of a grasping feel, the hands seem as if they're attached to one another with glue. Still, these neat new sleaves and pants would make line-thick arms look a little out of place, and I definately want the former to stay. I love all the extra details, too.

zimmerwald1915

2014-03-31, 01:52 PM

Big font and comic size and a new art style. Not bad, but I wonder if this will affect printing costs when the book is finished and ready to roll out.
It shouldn't. The images will be the same size as the old images when printed. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?338534-The-New-Font&p=17229280&viewfull=1#post17229280)

Silferdrake

2014-03-31, 01:57 PM

Huge fan of the new art upgrade. It really shows of how much the Giant has perfected his stick-fu over the years. The new font is, in my opinion, a lot cleaner and easier to read. I also can't wait to see how the sleeves and pants and such looks on the main characters.

Newwby

2014-03-31, 01:58 PM

I really like the new art style. Although I did initially flinch at the prong hands after the third time I went through the strip I came down firmly on the 'these changes are good changes' side of the fence. Watching the evolution of the art throughout the years has been very interesting.

I'm excited about the comic returning but I'm actually most glad the forums are back, having 'browse the GitP forums' out of my daily routine was jarring.

FallenFallcrest

2014-03-31, 01:59 PM

I really like the new art style, but the designs of the hands are bothering me. The fact that they have three oddly impractical fingers is now very obvious. If they had slightly more normal hands I would be more on board with the switch.

Auburn Bright

2014-03-31, 02:09 PM

I really like it. It's a great balance of detail and simplicity, and I think the added thickness gives the character models a little more depth. I love OotS dearly, but even though the visuals always got the point across I never felt like it was taking full advantage of the comic medium.

I do feel kinda weird about the colored hands, because it highlights how oddly they're shaped and how the characters aren't actually drawn gripping things. But I like the noodle arms, so I'm hoping they'll stay.

I also prefer the new font. Much more natural and easy to read, IMO. The last one was kind of blocky and inorganic.

WindStruck

2014-03-31, 02:20 PM

Hands are just a tad creepy...

Hmm, I wonder if this means I should "upgrade" my avatar now to match? Naah... :smalltongue:

Auburn Bright

2014-03-31, 02:45 PM

I considered it. Tracing outlines around a stick hand is something I'm bizarrely bad at. :smallconfused:

By the way, shouldn't they be the Order of the Noodle now?

NihhusHuotAliro

2014-03-31, 02:49 PM

I kinda thought it would be like Calvin & Hobbes or South Park, where the art in the background improves continuously, but the main characters retain their minimalist style.

Wow. It's really jarring to have those two put in the same sentence. One is a wonderful masterpiece that was defined by its great art and how its author stayed true to his principles despite lots of hurdles and hassling; which encapsulates what childhood really is like, and was an inspiration for many a webcomic artist (and, in fact, may have helped revive the perception of newspaper comics as potentially a quality art and as something great); and the other is, well, South Park.

Smolder

2014-03-31, 02:54 PM

Wow. It's really jarring to have those two put in the same sentence. One is a wonderful masterpiece that was defined by its great art and how its author stayed true to his principles despite lots of hurdles and hassling; which encapsulates what childhood really is like, and was an inspiration for many a webcomic artist (and, in fact, may have helped revive the perception of newspaper comics as potentially a quality art and as something great); and the other is, well, South Park.

South Park has touched on some very sensitive topics (Terry Schiavo, for instance) and has inspired a new generation of cartoons for grown-ups. If you can't look past the minimalist art and the intentionally mature language, then you're only illustrating why people dislike OOTS, which also has a minimalist art style and uses language about D&D that many have claimed is inaccessible to the uninitiated.

Purgatorius

2014-03-31, 02:56 PM

Welcome, good looking font!
Good bye, Comic Sans (http://bancomicsans.com/main/)!

zql

2014-03-31, 02:59 PM

usually I like the art updates
but the hands look really odd to me, everything else is fine

Gandariel

2014-03-31, 03:05 PM

Everything looks really cool, but the hands look pretty weird. Like if the charachters had tiny Menorah (jewish chandeliers)

Still, lookin'pretty good :D

NihhusHuotAliro

2014-03-31, 03:05 PM

South Park has touched on some very sensitive topics (Terry Schiavo, for instance) and has inspired a new generation of cartoons for grown-ups. If you can't look past the minimalist art and the intentionally mature language, then you're only illustrating why people dislike OOTS, which also has a minimalist art style and uses language about D&D that many have claimed is inaccessible to the uninitiated.

It's more about the tone. South Park has a very biting, snarky, cynical tone; quite like Mad Magazine.

Calvin and Hobbes was more like a fusion of Pogo, Krazy Kat, and the early years of Peanuts; all of which were completely different from the Mad Magazine / South Park in tone, presentation, and form.

It's comparing apples to pomegranates.

Baelzar

2014-03-31, 03:13 PM

Order of the Branch?
Order of the Trident?
Order of the Tube?
Order of the Straw?
Order of the Ziti?

What do we call them now?

Jaxzan Proditor

2014-03-31, 03:20 PM

Order of the Branch?
Order of the Trident?
Order of the Tube?
Order of the Straw?

What do we call them now?

I've seen people suggesting Order of the Noodle.

Gift Jeraff

2014-03-31, 03:27 PM

how its author stayed true to his principles despite lots of hurdles and hassling

But South Park has done its best to stay true to its principles despite lots of hurdles and hassling from censors and what-not.

zimmerwald1915

2014-03-31, 03:31 PM

The Order is named after a literal stick that Elan still carries around. So unless, say, V casts polymorph any object to turn it into a piece of linguini, the Order's name shouldn't change despite their no longer being stick-figures.

EDIT: it need hardly be said, of course, that such a spell would approach Big F levels of heinousness.

Grey Watcher

2014-03-31, 03:35 PM

I like the new art style. I can't complain too much about the colored in hands because I didn't even notice them until the last panel. And that was only because I was looking to see the new details visible in Durkon.

I definitely like being able to see things like pants and sleeves. For some reason the hands still read as a little odd (though with each viewing less so). For some reason, when colored in, the fact that the fingers are... unnaturally even becomes more obvious. Not sure why that should bother me more than a circle for a face or the lack elbows and knees, but it does. :smallconfused:

Gift Jeraff

2014-03-31, 03:39 PM

The hands don't bother me because they've always looked like Lego hands to me, and, AFAIK, Lego hands always match the character's skin colour or gloves, like this (http://scroggles.com/media/users/greentheo/lego_agents.jpg).

Baelzar

2014-03-31, 03:48 PM

littlebum2002

2014-03-31, 03:50 PM

I don't like it. I signed up to read a stick figure by gummit, and a stick figure comic is what I want

/sarcasm. Seriously, I love the changes. The hands do look a bit weird, but the stick figure hands looked just as weird when we first saw them.

zimmerwald1915

2014-03-31, 03:53 PM

http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq6 (From the OotS FAQ)
I appreciate the effort, but my browser thinks your link doesn't go anywhere :smallfrown:

Zubzub

2014-03-31, 03:56 PM

I like all the clothing and armor details, but those arms and hands send the characters straight to uncanny valley for me. It just looks weird and disturbing, and I dont think it fits the comic's artstyle well, especially when characters are holding hands and such. The other thing I couldnt make sense of is those two little white dots on Durkon's mom's s tied up sleeve. Are they supposed to represent stitches on cloth? Bone bits showing from where the arm is cut off? Isnt that a little dark? Other than the hands and arms upgrade, Im glad to see oots came back!

Jaxzan Proditor

2014-03-31, 03:56 PM

From the OotS FAQ (http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq6)
That's the out-of-story reason, not the in-story one.

zimmerwald1915

2014-03-31, 03:57 PM

Are they supposed to represent stitches on cloth? Bone bits showing from where the arm is cut off? Isnt that a little dark?
They look like buttons to me.

shamgar001

2014-03-31, 04:18 PM

As I posted in the main comic thread, unless this change was prompted by a massive loss in accumulated art resources necessitating a total rebuild from scratch, I don't really see the point of changing from stick figures to noodle people. It seems like each strip would take a lot more work. For example, depending on how the Giant does things, either Durkon's skin-tight sleeves would need to overlap exactly over his arms, or his wrists would have to extend believably from the sleeves and pant legs. I'm not saying the Giant doesn't pull it off, whichever way he does it, just that it seems like a lot more work for not much gain.

I also don't see the need for outlines on the stick-limbs. Recoloring the stick limbs from black to flesh-colored and putting bulkier sleeves over them would have been easier for a number of reasons. For example, I can imagine the new hands being formed one of two ways: either the Giant overlaps the objects he uses to create the hands and then uses the union1 tool to make one path out of them, or he draws the whole thing as one object from scratch. Either way seems more time-consuming than the old method of just placing one path on top of another. [EDIT: As Grey Watcher pointed out in the main thread, some characters, like Xykon, have had their limbs colored something other than black for a long while.]

An easier way to accomplish this would be to draw the stick arms, and then hit Stroke to Path (or whatever it is in Illustrator).

I like the changes overall, including the noodle hands.

Auburn Bright

2014-03-31, 04:20 PM

She pinned up the sleeve to keep it from flopping and dangling everywhere.

AKA_Bait

2014-03-31, 04:24 PM

While I the new art style is interesting, if a little jarring (especially, as many have noted, the hands) I don't like it for OOtS. Frankly, I don't even think it is as interesting as the style before the upgrade. The juxtaposition of the stick figure style on a complex plot and increasingly detailed level of surrounding art was a lot more engaging for me than the new "noodle" style is at this point.

This forum is now misnamed ("A forum for discussion of Rich Burlew's stick figure fantasy webcomic"), as is the comic. While I know that in-comic cannon is that the Order is actually named after a stick Elan found, it was also clearly named as a reference to the art-style being employed. Now, the stick figures are all gone. This makes me sad.

The Pilgrim

2014-03-31, 04:35 PM

At this pace, the Order will grow five fingers per hand next book.

ChristianSt

2014-03-31, 04:51 PM

Why is a somewhat thicker colored stick not longer a stick? :smallconfused:

I could understand such complaints if this would be "The Order of the Line" ...

zimmerwald1915

2014-03-31, 04:59 PM

Why is a somewhat thicker colored stick not longer a stick? :smallconfused:
As alluded to a number of times above, the sticks were drawn with paths in Illustrator while the noodles end up as (even if they may not start out as) objects.

Wou

2014-03-31, 05:07 PM

One day we wake up, and all the figures have noses ears and 5 fingered detailed palms :smalleek:
I'd think that's an additional work with little gain, but I guess Mr. Burlew knows better, so let's enjoy the ride.

On definitely plus side I appreciate the increase in general size of the pages. Been hoping for that for a long time, it was tiny on any modern-sized screen.

Morty

2014-03-31, 05:11 PM

I think I like it, but we'll see. Overall, I'm honestly not surprised to see such a change - the Giant's been doing it for ten years now, and experimenting with his art or deciding on new directions in which to take it is only natural. This one is just a bigger step than the gradual development we'd seen before.

Caivs

2014-03-31, 05:11 PM

The new art style is blowing me away, it's simply incredible.... I was already amazed at how a few panels in the last book (Durkon shooting lightning at Malack and Roy cutting the mummies down comes to mind) made you feel like being part of the scene. Now, the 3D effects trump it all, it felt like watching a video game cutscene. I'm surprised at how many people criticize it... I'm pretty sure they'll all get used to it and love it eventually.

Though I worry a little about the amount of work this new style implies, I hope it won't cause Rich too much trouble.

ChristianSt

2014-03-31, 05:14 PM

As alluded to a number of times above, the sticks were drawn with paths in Illustrator while the noodles end up as (even if they may not start out as) objects.

I don't care how they appear in Adobe Illustrator. I don't know why anybody other than the one person working with the original files should care about what they are (or aren't) in the original file.

I only said they still basically look like a stick. So I personally don't think a argument "They are no longer made out of sicks!" is valid.

ti'esar

2014-03-31, 05:20 PM

While I don't think the changes are ugly or anything like that, as someone who wholly endorsed the Giant's previous stance on visuals and is planning to do his own (non-OOTS-style) stick figure comic eventually, I'm more than a little saddened to see him apparently abandoning that philosophy.

Smolder

2014-03-31, 05:26 PM

The new art style will allow the Giant to pull off some plot-pivotal art trick, like noticing that another character has bite marks on their arm. "Did you feed the vampire after midnight?"

Shale

2014-03-31, 05:28 PM

I like the detailed look in general, just not the hands. They look less like stylized representations of hands and more like disturbingly deformed hands.

Wordsmyth

2014-03-31, 05:30 PM

Sheesh - so much emotion about some old pseudo-definition.

I totally dig this new style - so much expression!

With the hands... there might be a problem when they turn too small - the limits of resolution (btw. thanks for the larger canvas - that is _GREAT_!) claim their toll. Maybe it would be a good idea to revert to mono-colored hands below a certain size, kind of like this:

http://s22.postimg.org/svzof5kt9/Oots_Stick_Outlines.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/svzof5kt9/)

But hey, who am I to judge!
Keep up the great work, I love it.

Ted The Bug

2014-03-31, 05:36 PM

I'm also iffy on the limbs, but the rest looks alright.

Except the things holding Durkon! I loved the semi-stylized borderless ones in the last panel a lot more.

rukeen2

2014-03-31, 05:37 PM

I didn't even notice it, until I read the discussion on it. Looking back it's a little odd, but I'll probably forget about it by tomorrow.

slayerx

2014-03-31, 05:44 PM

Ya, never had a problem with OotS style before, but i don't really like the hands. I feel like its like an uncanny valley thing; he took a step furthar, but not far enough... its like the trident hands is kind of awkward, bu when done in black you don't really notice it; when they are outlined and colored however, the hands become A LOT more noticable and it just calls attention to that awkwardness. I feel like it would work better if he took it a step furthar and made hands with 4-5 fingers, one of which is a thumb, or took a step back and did hands how he did them before... this is kind of an uncomfortable medium; uncanny valley. Maybe i can get used to it I guess. Kinda funny that I didn't really take notice of it in the julio story; could be that being in black and white I overlooked it.

On the plus side, I like just about everything else, including how the legs are handled...

Gorgon_Heap

2014-03-31, 05:51 PM

I'm deeply impressed and quite loving all of it.

The man's giving us a decade-plus of essentially free entertainment and, unlike other web artists I've seen, has been improving the whole time.

Let him work.

Gift Jeraff

2014-03-31, 06:04 PM

4 fingers does look pretty good:
http://www.giantitp.com/Images/CafePress2011/FantasyFantasy.gif

Sunken Valley

2014-03-31, 06:08 PM

What do you guys think V's footwear will look like? I always imagined those curly toed slippers prevalent in India and the Middle East but I expect to be disappointed.

MagicalMeat

2014-03-31, 06:12 PM

I dislike the change, but I'm sure after 12 or so strips I'll love it. Change is sometimes difficult to accept.

Baelzar

2014-03-31, 06:12 PM

That's the out-of-story reason, not the in-story one.

But what if we started reading OotS before the story reason happened? Besides, "linear" guild? What's their story reason?

http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq6

I'm leaning towards "Order of the Ziti" or the more drastic "The Chef Boyardee Gang."

Unrest

2014-03-31, 06:20 PM

Sheesh - so much emotion about some old pseudo-definition.

Amen, brother! I say, let it rip in peace.

As for me - everything about the upgrade is amazing.

Except the hands. I don't have a problem with them being colour+stroke, but it's rather that in this strip, there is so much holding of hands - and this upgraded style I think would require the absolute-pain-in-the-literal-and-temporal-back overlapping of fingers. And even then, it's still difficult to pull off with just three, especially since Rich's style is pitchfork-style and not the live-long-and-prosper-style which would be I think easier to do but perhaps just too weird for OotS (everyone looking like pre-upgrade reptilians?). Edit: Looked at hands a day later. They bother not half as much as yesterday. Don't you just hate how the brain reacts to new stuff? :smallannoyed:

The objection to arms still stands, though. Compare little Durkon's arms - in wide sleeves, much dwarf, wow - with adult vampire-bound Durkon's arms. Adult Durkon's are much too thin fer a dorf! Elan, Haley, okay. But Durkon - wide(r) sleeves, I'd say, same for Roy, Tarquin etc. - sleeves never looked too bad (look at e.g. the two lawyers, Tarquin in bathrobe, Elan in sash-and-shirt).

arkwei

2014-03-31, 06:23 PM

The hands feel quite jarring, but everything else (including legs) works well.

zimmerwald1915

2014-03-31, 06:43 PM

Though I worry a little about the amount of work this new style implies, I hope it won't cause Rich too much trouble.
Okay, just as an experiment, I tried to recreate the vampire spirit (mostly because of the simplicity of the pose) and I ended up with a fair approximation following a reproducible method after about two hours. That was the initial drawing, which would take me about an hour and a half using the old style (less if I had reproducible assets). It took me about twenty minutes to re-pose a model with the old style. With this new style I think it'd take more like 30 because instead of dragging and recurving an existing stroke, the limb has to be drawn anew each time. Rich's times are all but certainly better than mine since he has a heck of a lot more practice and actual training. So the new style characters shouldn't take much longer to pose than they already do. I'd imagine the intricate background textures are a lot more time-consuming.

What I discovered was more onerous about the limb creation wasn't the posing, it was the process of overlaying the sleeves. What I ended up doing was:

drawing the arm as a 3px stroke (I was using the terminology wrong before :smallredface:);
copying and pasting that stroke over itself and then increasing the width of the top stroke to 4px;
drawing the two outer fingers as a 3px stroke;
converting all the strokes to paths;
giving the sleeve 2px outlines and the arms and fingers 1.333px outlines;
creating a union of the arm and fingers;
lopping off the end of the sleeve above the wrist.

The most annoying (it's not hard, just tedious) part of this is overlaying the sleeve and making sure it's going to fit right. It has to be done before conversion of strokes to paths, and I have a hard time remembering. But that's just me; I'm sure I'll get used to it eventually and I'm just as sure that if the Giant ever had this problem he's already over it.

I'm rather happy with how the vampire spirit turned out, though for obvious reasons I won't be posting it here. Next we'll see if I can reproduce my Twi avatar using this new style. If it's successful I'll replace my existing one.

Draxonicar

2014-03-31, 06:54 PM

The comic has been through a rather large amount of art updates in the past.

If anything, we've been overdue one for some time now.

Dr.Starky

2014-03-31, 07:18 PM

All criticism of the new art style is invalid due to the oncoming of pants.

Cuthalion

2014-03-31, 07:18 PM

Like everyone else, I like everything except hands.

Cerlis

2014-03-31, 07:22 PM

For the record the hands are 100% exactly the same as before, just a different color.

Cuthalion

2014-03-31, 07:32 PM

For the record the hands are 100% exactly the same as before, just a different color.

Not... quite. The sking-colored part is rather near the thickness that normal OOTS-style was, but then it has an outline beyond it. Meaning the hand as a whole is wider than it was.

rgrekejin

2014-03-31, 07:33 PM

Eh, it may yet grow on me, but I'm a little skeptical about the new style for two reasons. The first is that it looks weird contrasted with the super-minimalistic earlier strips, and the second is that it probably takes a lot longer to draw... which means new OotS less often.

FireJustice

2014-03-31, 08:08 PM

Loved everything, except the hands
hated them.

the outline calls way too much atention

the first time i saw i thought "the kid has a woodden hand?"

Porthos

2014-03-31, 08:36 PM

Ghost Nappa

2014-03-31, 09:22 PM

The comic seems to be ≈ 20% to 25% larger than it was (≈ 880 pixels wide vs ≈ 710 pixels wide). That's undoubtedly drawing at least a little bit more attention to the colored hands.

I popped the latest comic into Graphic Converter and after shrinking it to 80% of its current size, the hands weren't nearly as distracting.

Even at its normal resolution, I'm already getting used to them. So, eh. No big deal in the long run.

So multiple changes are occurring the physical and structural appearance in such a way that ultimately do not harm it but cause it great aggregation in the short run?

So the Order of the Stick hit puberty...

NihhusHuotAliro

2014-03-31, 09:34 PM

What do you guys think V's footwear will look like? I always imagined those curly toed slippers prevalent in India and the Middle East but I expect to be disappointed.

Oh, yes! I love those.

will my cousin notice the art change?

Fitzclowningham

2014-03-31, 09:40 PM

Loved everything, except the hands
hated them.

the outline calls way too much atention

the first time i saw i thought "the kid has a woodden hand?"

Yes. This 100%. In the old style, you never paid attention to the hands unless they were doing something. Now, they're very visible, and not doing anything most of the time. Even when they are, they're not really bending appropriately to the action being depicted. In page 2, panel 5 of 945, Durkon's mom is holding a dwarf over a chasm, and the art just shows her hand, not even gripping, drawn on top of his. I could see adding the detail if they were going to help to convey the action, but all I see now are a bunch of tridents everywhere.

Mando Knight

2014-03-31, 09:44 PM

and the second is that it probably takes a lot longer to draw... which means new OotS less often.

Less often than...?

Rich has already made it clear that new strips are out "when they're done" as opposed to a "real" schedule, and due to the still-relatively-simple designs of the comic, I doubt that the extra level of detail and line thickness are really going to be the bottleneck for production.

Pterocards

2014-03-31, 09:58 PM

I redid my avatar in the new art style, it's a little awkward to work with the hands but otherwise I think it's a great thing!

Cuthalion

2014-03-31, 10:16 PM

I redid my avatar in the new art style, it's a little awkward to work with the hands but otherwise I think it's a great thing!

It works better with kobolds, I'd say.

Anyway, I've looked at the strip like 50 times today just to get myself used to it. I don't really mind it as much now.

cobaltstarfire

2014-03-31, 10:40 PM

Okay, just as an experiment....

...I'm sure I'll get used to it eventually and I'm just as sure that if the Giant ever had this problem he's already over it.

I'm rather happy with how the vampire spirit turned out, though for obvious reasons I won't be posting it here. Next we'll see if I can reproduce my Twi avatar using this new style. If it's successful I'll replace my existing one.

This

It sounds like might even be faster to work in the new style even though it looks more complicated, if you factor out the extra time cause by unfamiliarity. It can be pretty amazing how much small tweaks to and familiarity with a work flow can change the time it takes.

Although I do wonder if he'll be experimenting more with the hands overtime, I don't personally have a problem with them, but they do seem to be drawing a relatively large negative response even taking into account the newness factor. Normally when a particular critique comes up that many times it's something worth looking into at least.

Auburn Bright

2014-03-31, 11:13 PM

I was honestly surprised by the amount of criticism the hands got, and I was one of the first complainers. :P

WindStruck

2014-03-31, 11:24 PM

Overall I think the problem with the hands is this:

Not only do they attract more attention due to being slightly larger and receiving color plus outline but... once that additional attention is drawn (both by the reader and artist), you expect something there to be more developed. Typically everything else that the author has bothered to provide an outline and coloring has received an appropriate and believable touch-up to detail. Boots, belts, hats, beards, etc. But when one looks where the hand should be, there's just the awkward three-prong fork things.

So basically... for the art to be consistent, the hands need to actually be hands to keep up with all the other art upgrades. Otherwise they should just remain solid black lines...

As an additional example, suppose rich decided to slightly widen and fill in the eyebrows of characters with color, sort of as an "upgrade" to show their hair color. Only the problem with that would be that the characters would at many points have awkward uni-brows and at other points, they'd completely disappear. See, that additional color/outline without refinement would just look strange.

Phybender

2014-03-31, 11:27 PM

My first thought was that in this arc there will be elements of the plot that would require greater detail in representation of stick figures, hence the update.

I was surprised to find out that the first exploit of the new design was in the very first comic drawn that way, the grab over the edge.

I am amazed. The promise for the new book is so big that I can't wait to see the next strip.

I guess the story will be so great that it won't fit the regular stick figures. I also love seeing stick figures come to "life" that way. There were times that I felt the whole stick figure thing cannot fit into the depth of the situation.

About the font, it will take me some time to get used to it.

WickerNipple

2014-04-01, 12:04 AM

Loved everything, except the hands
hated them.

the outline calls way too much atention

the first time i saw i thought "the kid has a woodden hand?"

Hahaha exact same reaction.

HandofShadows

2014-04-01, 12:23 AM

New art style was a surprise, but I do consider it an upgrade. To me it keeps a lot of the old stle, but adds to it. Some people may find the change a bit jarring or not like it, but a lot of that is just because it's different, not bad. I CAN see two drawbacks to the new art style. It's likely going to take longer to produce this style and that most people will need to upgrade their forum avatars to much the new style. :smallbiggrin:

starwoof

2014-04-01, 01:50 AM

I hate everything new here.

Fafnir13

2014-04-01, 02:12 AM

I think the hand/limb outlines work well close up. Far away though? It's a lot of detail for something so small.
It'll probably grow on me. Maybe. It'll help when I've seen what else the new style can do. Some of the perspective shots in this strip were very nice and wouldn't have worked at all in the old style.

Sir Brandon

2014-04-01, 02:40 AM

To be honest? The trident hands were jarring for about 2 seconds....but after that....I think it looks good. Very good. Sue me.

banjo1985

2014-04-01, 02:46 AM

I tentatively like it, though it'll take a good month or two before I can have an opinion that isn't biased by the newness of it. I like the extra detail, I like the font, but boy do those hands look weird.

WickerNipple

2014-04-01, 05:47 AM

I just looked at the date and figured out the hands!

HappyBlanket

2014-04-01, 05:48 AM

I like the art style, though of course it will take getting used to.
I like the thickness of the arms and legs very much. That little bit of extra volume to the characters is interesting and more informative than their stick predecessors. The hands, as many have said, don't appeal to me as much (perhaps the skin tone approaches a little too close to something uncanny). However, as with the arms, it provides more info than before. Certainly they're more clearly read.

I think it's worth noting that although commentary is all good and fair in response to change, we should remember that the Giant has likely spent a good amount of time developing his stylistic choices. It's not as if he picked it out of a hat one morning and said "Welp, guess that's what the comic looks like now, let's find out if it works." He has considered the pros and cons of switching to the art style to the best of his ability, and what we see in OotS 947 is the result of that deliberation.

Zejety

2014-04-01, 06:16 AM

I just looked at the date and figured out the hands!

Wasn't this posted on March 31st though?

Keltest

2014-04-01, 06:36 AM

For the most part I can handle the changes, but the hands and arms bother me more than a little. Maybe ill get used to them, and maybe this first comic was special in some way since it was a memory that inadvertently highlighted the hands more than will be normal, but for now im going to sit in the corner and swat at them with my heckles up if they come any closer.

Greatmoustache

2014-04-01, 06:56 AM

these are me personal ideas, if you hate me for it, so be it.

[takadatakadatakadatakada... oh wait. erase it all.]

meh, i wrote the things that bothered me, and it turns out, it's pretty much everything that's new comparing to #946. except durkon having boots. emphasis on "having." not "drawn this way."

also the "movement" effect in panels 7 and 8 looks like it's a magical effect.

and what's with D's skin color?

i'm sure the comic in general will be great. but... i for myself always liked it for it's simplicity (drawing-wise ofcourse). and the giant's efforts about the art being, well, artsy and still staying on the "simple" side was what made the comic art style wonderful for me. i loved the latest fire effects for example.

it's not that i'm saying "don't do this or i'll quit oots!" (i've been 'ere too long for that.) but, i just don't like the new style. =(

nogall

2014-04-01, 07:35 AM

Cuthalion

2014-04-01, 08:40 AM

This

It sounds like might even be faster to work in the new style even though it looks more complicated, if you factor out the extra time cause by unfamiliarity. It can be pretty amazing how much small tweaks to and familiarity with a work flow can change the time it takes.

Although I do wonder if he'll be experimenting more with the hands overtime, I don't personally have a problem with them, but they do seem to be drawing a relatively large negative response even taking into account the newness factor. Normally when a particular critique comes up that many times it's something worth looking into at least.

It's definitely not faster. The legs take a bit more time and the hands take three times as long.

Turin_19

2014-04-01, 08:56 AM

*Me, after reading the comic 3 or 4 times, then reading this thread*

"OMG, THEY ARE NO LONGER STICK FIGURES!"

Yep, it took me this long to realize. It's a major change, but I think he has done it so well that we don't lose the OOTS-feel. This is still, and probably improved, OOTS.

I just think that, when it all ends and we start reading back from the beginning, we will always have the feel "wow, look at how it was before!"

(OK, actually, we always had that feel).

I think it's part of the MD design the Giant introduced in the calendar.

Keltest

2014-04-01, 08:59 AM

you know, ive noticed two things. One: Durkon does not wear gauntlets or gloves of any sort. Granted, he isn't in combat mode right now, but it stands out to me.

Two, im pretty sure his arms come out of his neck. Its really hard to tell with those pauldrons. And looking back, it looks like hes always had neck-arms, theyre just more noticeable since theyre thicker.

ChristianSt

2014-04-01, 09:06 AM

It's definitely not faster. The legs take a bit more time and the hands take three times as long.

Unless you know exactly how Rich worked before and works now I don't think anyone can really say how much more or less time the new style requires.

In all cases I don't think it is something we should discuss. (At least I feel it is rather closely related to the update schedule topic.) There is only one person who can evaluate whether any time spent on it was worth it. And since that person posted that comic, I think that is an answer.

zimmerwald1915

2014-04-01, 09:11 AM

Two, im pretty sure his arms come out of his neck. Its really hard to tell with those pauldrons. And looking back, it looks like hes always had neck-arms, theyre just more noticeable since theyre thicker.
For what it's worth, when copying the vampire spirit, I put the bases of its arms at the intersection of its head and torso. But I don't think the Giant connects the arms to the body at all when he doesn't have to. Roy's and Durkon's arms, and V's wrists, always seemd to grow out of their pouldrons and sleeves respectively. Nothing about the new art style compels him to start drawing the limbs underlying those obscuring objects now, and there isn't enough reference material to suggest that's what he's doing.

Speaking of reference material, I need nu-Haley and nu-Laurin, stat! Bonus points if Haley can be easily scaled with Durkon.

Elder Tsofu

2014-04-01, 09:14 AM

It's definitely not faster. The legs take a bit more time and the hands take three times as long.

Well, if the arms and legs take 20 seconds each that is not much of an increase. The increase is not even that bad, I can adjust an arm for quite some time, but to add the outline takes the same amount of time regardless of the time taken to adjust the initial positioning.

zimmerwald1915

2014-04-01, 09:23 AM

Well, if the arms and legs take 20 seconds each that is not much of an increase. The increase is not even that bad, I can adjust an arm for quite some time, but to add the outline takes the same amount of time regardless of the time taken to adjust the initial positioning.
The problem is that there are now several intermediate steps between the initial positioning of the limb and the final product, where with the old style the initial positioning and the final product were one and the same. The individual steps aren't any harder, but it takes longer, there are more chances to get it wrong, and you need a much better eye than you did before. None of that is so much a problem for Rich - who, again, is a good artist and has no doubt worked out many of his personal bugs already - but it is a problem for lesser lights trying to learn and use the style. Which, in the Giant's eyes, could be a tangible benefit! The old style was fairly easy to reproduce for fanart purposes, and the Giant has always been protective of his IP.

Elder Tsofu

2014-04-01, 09:32 AM

The problem is that there are now several intermediate steps between the initial positioning of the limb and the final product, where with the old style the initial positioning and the final product were one and the same. The individual steps aren't any harder, but it takes longer, there are more chances to get it wrong, and you need a much better eye than you did before. None of that is so much a problem for Rich - who, again, is a good artist and has no doubt worked out many of his personal bugs already - but it is a problem for lesse lights trying to learn and use the style. Which, in Rich's eyes, could be a tangible benefit! The old style was fairly easy to reproduce for fanart purposes, and Rich has always been protective of his IP.

It is 3 steps, taking at the most 15 seconds in the (probably) most commonly used vector-program. It would be a simple addition to any guide out there. And it is not as the old ways are obsolete just because Rich moves his style forward.

You seem quite suspicious of Rich Burlew, if he didn't like fan-art he would just delete the Arts and Crafts sub-forum - I find it highly unlikely that he considered changing style to make it harder to create fan-art.

What might take a bit more time is all the details and more 3D-depth effects he added into the comic. But that hasn't been brought up in any way as much as the quite trivial change of the limbs.

Zindaras

2014-04-01, 09:48 AM

Weirdly, I immediately noticed the font change and that there was something different, but I didn't see the arms/legs thing until I read it here. What struck me much more was the experimentation with perspective, especially in the "action" bit of the rescue. Very interesting to see more dynamic images. I can only wonder how much more time it'll take.

Cuthalion

2014-04-01, 09:57 AM

Unless you know exactly how Rich worked before and works now I don't think anyone can really say how much more or less time the new style requires.

In all cases I don't think it is something we should discuss. (At least I feel it is rather closely related to the update schedule topic.) There is only one person who can evaluate whether any time spent on it was worth it. And since that person posted that comic, I think that is an answer.
I pretty much do. He draws a hand in black stroke with not outline or fill. Now, however, any way it happened, it takes a bit longer to make.

For what it's worth, when copying the vampire spirit, I put the bases of its arms at the intersection of its head and torso. But I don't think the Giant connects the arms to the body at all when he doesn't have to. Roy's and Durkon's arms, and V's wrists, always seemd to grow out of their pouldrons and sleeves respectively. Nothing about the new art style compels him to start drawing the limbs underlying those obscuring objects now, and there isn't enough reference material to suggest that's what he's doing.

Speaking of reference material, I need nu-Haley and nu-Laurin, stat! Bonus points if Haley can be easily scaled with Durkon.
Nu-Haley? Nu-Laurin?

Well, if the arms and legs take 20 seconds each that is not much of an increase. The increase is not even that bad, I can adjust an arm for quite some time, but to add the outline takes the same amount of time regardless of the time taken to adjust the initial positioning.
But I was just saying it's not faster, not necessarily that it's slow.

zimmerwald1915

2014-04-01, 10:04 AM

It is 3 steps, taking at the most 15 seconds in the (probably) most commonly used vector-program. It would be a simple addition to any guide out there. And it is not as the old ways are obsolete just because Rich moves his style forward.
I really have to take issue with the "15 seconds." I just drew an arm to see how long it would take and it took about 160 seconds. I have absolutely no doubt that with his greater skills and greater practice the Giant's times are better than mine. Yours probably are too. But I do doubt that they're an order of magnitude better.

But that time is beside the point. The point I was making is that an artist needs a better eye to draw with the new style. That arm I just drew? Looking at it again, it seems too long, and I didn't draw it with any particular pose in mind. Using the old style I could adjust a limb's length and curve. Using the new style I'd need to draw it again, and probably keep the old limb around for a while to reference. And I tried to be careful in my word choice in describing how I felt about this. I find it annoying and problematic to deal with, but it's by no means bad. There's an argument to be made that by eliminating the easy fixes the new style promotes the development of the needed better eye.

You seem quite suspicious of Rich Burlew, if he didn't like fan-art he would just delete the Arts and Crafts sub-forum - I find it highly unlikely that he considered changing style to make it harder to create fan-art.
Gosh, it's a good thing that's not what I said. I said the Giant might consider harder reproducability a perq, not that reducing reproducability was the motor force behind the change.

What might take a bit more time is all the details and more 3D-depth effects he added into the comic. But that hasn't been brought up in any way as much as the quite trivial change of the limbs.
I think it hasn't been brought up as much because the background isn't showcased as much as the character designs. The comic is called The Order of the Stick, it is marketed as a "stick figure fantasy webcomic," and one of the most common reactions in the strip discussion threads is something along the lines of "I can't believe you can make me feel this much about stick figures!" The background, motion lines, and presumably sound effect changes are important, and they probably are more time-consuming. But they are in many ways peripheral to the way a lot of people think and feel about the comic.

Elder Tsofu

2014-04-01, 11:06 AM

I really have to take issue with the "15 seconds." I just drew an arm to see how long it would take and it took about 160 seconds. I have absolutely no doubt that with his greater skills and greater practice the Giant's times are better than mine. Yours probably are too. But I do doubt that they're an order of magnitude better.

Just for you I drew a noodle arm on one of my old creations. I might argue more with you later.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUmmhCBHOZY&feature=youtu.be

Baelzar

2014-04-01, 11:25 AM

Auburn Bright

2014-04-01, 12:22 PM

Added noodle limbs to my avatar. I have to say, it was a layering nightmare, especially given how my cheapie program handles outlines. I didn't want to just make a copy of the outline and put it behind the whole arm, because due to the way the fingers overlap I felt they needed individual outlines.

I'm totally fine with the non-moving fingers now.

Also, Elder Tsofu, can I ask what program you're using?

Dain

2014-04-01, 12:30 PM

I don't dislike the new style although I like the previous one better, at least for this story. As a matter of fact, this art style is not new because was used in the SSDT book and I like to see it there. At least Durkon has boots now or they became visible:smallwink:.

Anyway, I'm not going to remake my avatar with the new art style!:smallbiggrin:

Jasdoif

2014-04-01, 12:33 PM

Also, Elder Tsofu, can I ask what program you're using?It looks like Inkscape (http://www.inkscape.org/) to me; same program I use.

zimmerwald1915

2014-04-01, 12:36 PM

It looks like Inkscape (http://www.inkscape.org/) to me; same program I use.
It does, doesn't it?

Dash

2014-04-01, 12:38 PM

You know, I've always considered the comic's art style to be reminiscent of Paper Mario's. I think that the enhanced definition to the characters only increases the similarities (panel 5 of #947 in particular-- really, I think it's the thickness of the outlines), although obviously the experimenting with 3-D perspective is also a bit of a departure from that.

In any case, keeping that in mind is what makes it easiest for me to digest the newness of it all. I'm sure I'll find it just fine in the long run, though. Also I feel like a negative reaction to the new style is a good set-up for the traditional situation of "I got criticism because of how I was doing it before, so I changed/improved it... and now I get criticism because it's different than it was before," which to me is always an amusing part of the creator-fanbase dynamic. (Although it's less amusing for the creator.) We'll just have to wait and see whether it's "justified" in this case, but I do think it'll be welcomed, accepted, or at least tolerated by most in the long run.

I do appreciate that he kept the iconic (?) inconsistently-sized eyes, though. There are some features of the art style that I would just miss too much.

EDIT: Also I find it ludicrous that some are suggesting it's not a stick figure comic anymore. The shapes are still the same, unless he's done something weird with the feet design. That's all that matters. With that sort of logic you could have argued that it wasn't ever a stick figure comic because there was definition beyond that of the "basic" stick figure design of five lines and one circle. If anything, the only reason that the hands seem weird to so many people is because the characters are still stick figures.

colanderman

2014-04-01, 12:44 PM

Oh I had not noticed the new font. I like it. :)

I find it so strange that many people did not notice the new font! It is the first thing I noticed… I thought I had clicked on Erfworld by accident or something! Whereas it wasn't until I read the forums that I realized the limbs had changed! (I had only felt something looked "different" but couldn't place it…)

So count me among the "it's jarring but I'm sure I'll get used to it" crowd.

BUBBA

2014-04-01, 12:46 PM

I like the new art quite a bit, particularly the more detailed clothing & armor. The only thing which strikes me as being a bit off are the flesh-colored trident hands, which bring up the frightening prospect that the entire comic is populated by hideously incompetent Yakuza.

Lissibith

2014-04-01, 01:00 PM

Yeah... I was always weirded out by the style of the hands. I just learned not to look at them too much. So the reaction to the latest change is sort of making me laugh.

That said, I like the detail on the clothing, I like the new font and I don't find the new hands any more weird than the old ones, so net gain for me.

Also, I love that he's pushing what he does and experimenting with the look. It would be really easy to allow himself to get into a rut, visual-artistically speaking, but he never has. I love seeing creative people who continue to try new thing.

Elder Tsofu

2014-04-01, 01:07 PM

Of course it's going to take longer.

Forget the Chefboyardee arms; the addition of perspective is a big time add, wouldn't you think? Can't just slap 2D feet on there now - gotta consider where the camera is facing. Not just more art time, but more think time.

I was always charmed by the stick-figure style. I've seen a few web-comics actually take a step backwards by moving from a unique style to a more mainstream style (QC comes to mind).

Indeed, the arms are just peanuts compared to the rest of the upgrade. I can also agree that I was quite fond of the old ways since it was beautiful in its simplicity.

Added noodle limbs to my avatar. I have to say, it was a layering nightmare, especially given how my cheapie program handles outlines. I didn't want to just make a copy of the outline and put it behind the whole arm, because due to the way the fingers overlap I felt they needed individual outlines.

I'm totally fine with the non-moving fingers now.

Also, Elder Tsofu, can I ask what program you're using?

It looks like Inkscape (http://www.inkscape.org/) to me; same program I use.

Correct, it is the latest iteration of Inkscape (in full screen to avoid recording a stationary bar at the top).

Sorry to hear that about your program, if it was in Inkscape I could probably give advice on how to do it - although it is slightly more fiddly than the standard hand. :smallfrown:

But I was just saying it's not faster, not necessarily that it's slow.

Yes I agree that you did, but the way you expressed it was quite uninformative. 3 times as long isn't as impressive when you spend a minute on it out of perhaps hours of work. It is generally better to use more precise numbers to convey the information so that the reader can form their own opinion regarding how big the difference is. (I'm almost allergic to the sort of relative reporting due to being in the medical field where risks tend to be conveyed to the public in "10 times as likely" (In truth one in a million now gets it instead of one in 10 million))

Flame of Anor

2014-04-01, 01:09 PM

I must say I agree--the new hands are distracting and weird. I'm not sure how I feel about the new font, but the other changes seem okay.

Jasdoif

2014-04-01, 01:22 PM

Something I just realized, is how easy it is to visually distinguish hands with the new style. All those panels in 947 with hands touching, would be more of a mess to mentally resolve if they were just overlapping bits of a single color.

Boring McReader

2014-04-01, 01:38 PM

It's definitely not faster. The legs take a bit more time and the hands take three times as long.

I always assumed he keeps a library of vector characters, facial expressions, and body parts for the vast majority of his scenes. How else would he get such incredible consistency between panels and such flexibility with crowd scenes? The time required to position a vector arm would be exactly the same whether it was a stick or a noodle. Changing the color of the skin adds a couple mouseclicks.

Most of his time is probably spent designing layouts, positioning all the library elements properly, creating new objects and backgrounds for the library as needed, and adding custom art and effects to individual panels when the library isn't suitable.

You can see what I'm talking about in panels 3 and 5 of page 947. All he has to do for panel 5 is crop panel 3, move an arm, and swap the mouth. For comparison, the cliff road looks different in every panel and was probably drawn freehand every time.

The falling dwarf's body in panel 8 can be created from the standard models by changing a few straight lines to curves. The perspective view in panel 9 looks distinct enough to be drawn specifically for that frame, unless it's a heavily modified rearrangement of standard body elements. Panel 10 could be creative use of existing elements or a custom drawing. The same goes for panel 12, where if you take away the perspective shoe, you're left with what could be a standard model.

I'm guessing. I have no knowledge of the Giant's actual workflow. But I'd be shocked to learn that the noodle limbs require much additional time over stick limbs once they've been created and stored.

FullStop

2014-04-01, 01:52 PM

cobaltstarfire

2014-04-01, 01:59 PM

It's definitely not faster. The legs take a bit more time and the hands take three times as long.

Did you actually read and understand what I said or are you just spitting out the first thing that comes to mind for the sake of an argument?

Zimmerwald said they took about 30 minutes more to do one thing, and about 10 minutes more to do another.

I got the 'maybe it could even be faster' from the fact that doing something new and different didn't add that much time at all relatively speaking. If Zimmerwald was practiced in this style like the Giant probably is by now, and familiar I highly doubt it would taken a noticeably longer amount of time workflow really does matter. It wasn't really that big of a deal to give a colored line an outline last time I used illustrator, granted that was well over 5 years ago, but I'm sure it hasn't changed much in that time. If anything the extra assets and such will add more time than a simple change to how the characters are rendered.

Of course I'm only speculating based on what I know about how familiarity can effect the rate at which someone works, it'd be really silly for me to speak in absolute terms on such a thing, which is why I didn't in the first place.

Boring McReader

2014-04-01, 02:19 PM

As of #974, we can see a major change to the art style, specifically giving outlines and coloring to the arms and legs.

Personally, I don't think this is a good choice. The arms and legs are too skinny to add outlines, along with the trident-like hands they had. It would have worked better if they had thicker limbs and fingers, but that would have been a bigger art change, and they wouldn't really be stick dolls anymore (although the new design is kind of changing that anyhow).

Plus, I don't think having "kind of legs" on giant boots looks worse than stick legs on giant boots. But overall, I'm glad Durkon finally has footwear.

What do you think?

I've always liked the aesthetic of this comic. It's colorful and clear, simple in style but detailed everywhere detail is needed. The art was never ugly, even in the early days. Often it's a joy to behold.

Noodle legs and enhanced perspective are a big change, but they don't take away from the strip's character. They suit the rescue scene well. Time will tell how much perspective will appear in daily strips, but flipping back a few pages I can see a lot of opportunities for it in the scenes aboard the airship. We'll probably see perspective whenever the scene demands it, and that's fine with me.

I'm not as keen on the hands. The noodle arms work well enough, but the hands are jarring. I think it's because they draw your attention to the shape of the hands, whereas the stick arms worked as, well, sticks. The more they look like something tangible, the more we expect them to look like proper hands. Instead they look like forks grafted onto shoulders. If they could be less prominent, less attention-grabbing, they wouldn't seem so odd.

Thing is, these are Order of the Stick arms and hands with a skin infusion. You can't get much closer to the original without ditching the noodles completely. From the first panel, I get the impression Rich worked hard to come up with a hand that would work at all scales, not just the normal view. There may not be a better way to do it without moving further from the traditional stickiness, such as adding a thumb and putting the fingers in a more traditional shape. Without the outline, the hands would look foreign to their owners. With a thinner outline, they'd look overly fine and detailed, especially at reduced size. He had good reasons for picking this style. It just doesn't work as well as I'd like. Without adding another finger, I don't see how the odd skin-colored shape could be made less unnatural.

I can get used to these hands. They're weirdest at first glance. Maybe once the brain is trained to see hands that shape and color, they'll blend back in with the appealing art.

Kudos to Rich for experimenting. I have high hopes for this chapter.

zimmerwald1915

2014-04-01, 02:21 PM

I'm overall really digging the bump in detail, with the caveat that were I in Rich's position, I'd ditch the skintone on bare hands. Keep sleeves and pantlegs and stuff(add gloves and gauntlets where applicable), but bare limbs and hands keep just straight-up black lines like before.
I have to say that, after having played with the thicker limb lines a little bit, I think this would be a mistake. Relative to the character, 4.5-pixel wide black limbs with no outline look worse than 4.5-pixel wide flesh-toned limbs with 2-pixel wide outlines. There's just too much black. 3-pixel-wide black limbs work, in that there isn't too much black. but then there's the problem of the colored skin-tight sleeves (where they are skin-tight) being too thin. You'd end up with a 3-pixel wide sleeve with a 2-pixel wide outline, which would cover up almost the whole fill.

Also honestly a little surprised that modern Durkon doesn't have explicit gauntlets or gloves or something. You'd think that'd be a pretty important part of wearing that much armor.
Maybe it's a cleric thing. Bare hands allow the healing to flow more readily. Or something.

Also also: Really excited to see the rest of the crew with the updated visual style.
Agreed.

Zimmerwald said they took about 30 minutes more to do one thing, and about 10 minutes more to do another.

I got the 'maybe it could even be faster' from the fact that doing something new and different didn't add that much time at all relatively speaking. If Zimmerwald was practiced in this style like the Giant probably is by now, and familiar I highly doubt it would taken a noticeably longer amount of time workflow really does matter.
I just want to reiterate that I admitted as much, more than once. Carry on :smallsmile:

Cuthalion

2014-04-01, 02:24 PM

I always assumed he keeps a library of vector characters, facial expressions, and body parts for the vast majority of his scenes. How else would he get such incredible consistency between panels and such flexibility with crowd scenes? The time required to position a vector arm would be exactly the same whether it was a stick or a noodle. Changing the color of the skin adds a couple mouseclicks.

Most of his time is probably spent designing layouts, positioning all the library elements properly, creating new objects and backgrounds for the library as needed, and adding custom art and effects to individual panels when the library isn't suitable.

You can see what I'm talking about in panels 3 and 5 of page 947. All he has to do for panel 5 is crop panel 3, move an arm, and swap the mouth. For comparison, the cliff road looks different in every panel and was probably drawn freehand every time.

The falling dwarf's body in panel 8 can be created from the standard models by changing a few straight lines to curves. The perspective view in panel 9 looks distinct enough to be drawn specifically for that frame, unless it's a heavily modified rearrangement of standard body elements. Panel 10 could be creative use of existing elements or a custom drawing. The same goes for panel 12, where if you take away the perspective shoe, you're left with what could be a standard model.

I'm guessing. I have no knowledge of the Giant's actual workflow. But I'd be shocked to learn that the noodle limbs require much additional time over stick limbs once they've been created and stored.
Not much, but still a tiny bit longer. You can't move a noodle arm around as easily because it is two separate parts. The only way I can see to do it is delete half and remake it after you've posed the other half.

Did you actually read and understand what I said or are you just spitting out the first thing that comes to mind for the sake of an argument?

Zimmerwald said they took about 30 minutes more to do one thing, and about 10 minutes more to do another.

I got the 'maybe it could even be faster' from the fact that doing something new and different didn't add that much time at all relatively speaking. If Zimmerwald was practiced in this style like the Giant probably is by now, and familiar I highly doubt it would taken a noticeably longer amount of time workflow really does matter. It wasn't really that big of a deal to give a colored line an outline last time I used illustrator, granted that was well over 5 years ago, but I'm sure it hasn't changed much in that time. If anything the extra assets and such will add more time than a simple change to how the characters are rendered.

Of course I'm only speculating based on what I know about how familiarity can effect the rate at which someone works, it'd be really silly for me to speak in absolute terms on such a thing, which is why I didn't in the first place.
I'm sorry. I agree with you in that it won't take much longer. It will make maybe a minute per panel of extra work at max, but I'm still somewhat confused about what you're trying to say.

My main point overall is that while it will take longer, it doesn't make much of a difference in time of production.

Keltest

2014-04-01, 02:40 PM

Maybe it's a cleric thing. Bare hands allow the healing to flow more readily. Or something.

I doubt that. Clerics are specifically designed to be able to wear armor. Wouldn't make sense if there was an arbitrary glove restriction. I think its more likely Durkon simply wasn't wearing gloves on the ship (or even more likely, Rich thought that gauntlet-colored hands looked weird)

FullStop

2014-04-01, 02:43 PM

I have to say that, after having played with the thicker limb lines a little bit, I think this would be a mistake. Relative to the character, 4.5-pixel wide black limbs with no outline look worse than 4.5-pixel wide flesh-toned limbs with 2-pixel wide outlines. There's just too much black. 3-pixel-wide black limbs work, in that there isn't too much black. but then there's the problem of the colored skin-tight sleeves (where they are skin-tight) being too thin. You'd end up with a 3-pixel wide sleeve with a 2-pixel wide outline, which would cover up almost the whole fill.

I was thinking more along the lines of the original-thickness black stickhands/arms, stuck on the ends of sleeves/shoulders as appropriate(and again, exclusively when they're meant to be bare. Gloves and long sleeves/armor get the new thickness and color).

zimmerwald1915

2014-04-01, 02:48 PM

I doubt that. Clerics are specifically designed to be able to wear armor. Wouldn't make sense if there was an arbitrary glove restriction. I think its more likely Durkon simply wasn't wearing gloves on the ship (or even more likely, Rich thought that gauntlet-colored hands looked weird)
Well, we'll see how gloved hands look next time Thor comes into the picture.

Cuthalion

2014-04-01, 02:49 PM

Well, we'll see how gloved hands look next time Thor comes into the picture.

A few of the background dwarves have gloves. Wait, never mind. He just has dark skin.

zimmerwald1915

2014-04-01, 02:51 PM

A few of the background dwarves have gloves.
Are you sure? They all look bare-handed to me.

Cuthalion

2014-04-01, 03:01 PM

Are you sure? They all look bare-handed to me.

You're right, I was wrong, he just has dark skin.

The Giant

2014-04-01, 04:04 PM

It takes literally the exact same amount of time to draw the new hands, because Illustrator CS6 has a Blob brush that creates an outlined shape from a brush stroke and merges everything you draw with that brush automatically. I just select a round Blob brush, draw the hand, then apply a color. It takes maaaaaybe a fraction of a second more per hand—though I can draw several and then color them together, so less if you average it.

So if you want to complain about how they look, whatever, but the changes to the feet consumed way more time. And all the feet in the comic put together didn't hold a candle to the time it took to draw the one entrance to the dwarven tunnels in perspective. And I don't see anyone complaining about that.

EDIT: Here's a demonstration of the Blob from Adobe:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAhSUnvSpk0

zimmerwald1915

2014-04-01, 04:06 PM

ChristianSt

2014-04-01, 04:15 PM

Smolder

2014-04-01, 04:37 PM

Then the problem is just that the black outline of the hand should not be as thick as the colored part. It should be easy to adjust this setting of the blob brush.

zimmerwald1915

2014-04-01, 04:44 PM

It should be easy to adjust this setting of the blob brush.
Yes, it should. Anyone with Illustrator care to confirm?

The Giant

2014-04-01, 04:55 PM

Then the problem is just that the black outline of the hand should not be as thick as the colored part. It should be easy to adjust this setting of the blob brush.

It is incredibly easy. I am not going to do it.

Smolder

2014-04-01, 05:16 PM

It is incredibly easy. I am not going to do it.

Nor should you. I'm not the one with the art degree here. :smallwink:

Cuthalion

2014-04-01, 05:28 PM

WindStruck

2014-04-01, 05:56 PM

Why would anyone be complaining about the entrance to the dwarf tunnel though? It doesn't look all deformed and weird. :smalltongue:

Silmarwen

2014-04-01, 05:58 PM

OMG! OMG! I can't wait to see Belkars' feet!!! :belkar::biggrin:

zimmerwald1915

2014-04-01, 06:04 PM

Why would anyone be complaining about the entrance to the dwarf tunnel though? It doesn't look all deformed and weird. :smalltongue:
Neither does anything else...well, no more than it always did :smalltongue:

Cuthalion

2014-04-01, 06:23 PM

OMG! OMG! I can't wait to see Belkars' feet!!! :belkar::biggrin:

I... tried.

http://i.imgur.com/YUWLkr0.png

Thing is, Belkar's feet already have an outline. So I didn't really change much there.

jere7my

2014-04-01, 06:37 PM

What the hell is up with the entrance to the dwarf tunnels? I don't have Illustrator, but if I try to recreate that using only chewing gum and sticks it takes me over thirteen hours. Rich must be brain-crazy!

WindStruck

2014-04-01, 08:08 PM

The issue I have with the Z and V drawings is that I'm almost certain they wear some sort of shoes...

Cuthalion

2014-04-01, 08:32 PM

The issue I have with the Z and V drawings is that I'm almost certain they wear some sort of shoes...
Elan, second panel.
(http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0675.html)
All the characters with shoes have them drawn.

Jaxzan Proditor

2014-04-01, 08:55 PM

Elan, second panel.
(http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0675.html)
All the characters with shoes have them drawn.

I wonder why they don't wear them. Belkar, I can understand, since he's a halfling. But why the Elves?

Gift Jeraff

2014-04-01, 09:00 PM

Elan, second panel.
(http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0675.html)
All the characters with shoes have them drawn.

Elan thought he was barefoot, meaning he wasn't. Durkon did not have shoes drawn until the most recent strip.

Cuthalion

2014-04-01, 09:07 PM

I wonder why they don't wear them. Belkar, I can understand, since he's a halfling. But why the Elves?

Perhaps because they fly a lot?

Elan thought he was barefoot, meaning he wasn't. Durkon did not have shoes drawn until the most recent strip.

But then there was the art upgrade and all the characters that were supposed to have shoes had shoes. I'll be drawing shoeless characters shoeless until I get any evidence to the contrary.

Keltest

2014-04-01, 09:17 PM

I wonder why they don't wear them. Belkar, I can understand, since he's a halfling. But why the Elves?

I believe V and Z wear sandals or slippers of some variety. Or perhaps being elves they automatically wear "footwear of elvenkind" which conform to whichever class's armor requirements they need to.

Jasdoif

2014-04-01, 09:19 PM

But then there was the art upgrade and all the characters that were supposed to have shoes had shoes. I'll be drawing shoeless characters shoeless until I get any evidence to the contrary.You know, I wasn't really looking for this, but since I just came across this 2004 post....

Belkar IS barefoot--those are his hairy halfling feet you're seeing there. And Elan, Durkon, and V aren't actually barefoot, I just don't draw their shoes in any detail, because it would make the character design too busy.

Cuthalion

2014-04-01, 09:21 PM

You know, I wasn't really looking for this, but since I just came across this 2004 post....

And neither do I until I see what the Giant thinks their shoes are like.

Jaxzan Proditor

2014-04-01, 09:25 PM

You know, I wasn't really looking for this, but since I just came across this 2004 post....

Well then, forget my previous question.

Cuthalion

2014-04-01, 09:27 PM

Well then, forget my previous question.

I'll never forget it. Ever. :smalleek:

WindStruck

2014-04-01, 09:28 PM

Elan, second panel.
(http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0675.html)
All the characters with shoes have them drawn.

It's been pointed out that Durkon actually wears shoes. I can only imagine that if shoes AREN'T drawn that it means the shoe is fairly standard, maybe flimsy, and just plain non-magical. It doesn't necessarily mean the character is barefoot. I'd find it hard to believe THAT many people wander about like that.

Cuthalion

2014-04-01, 09:31 PM

It's been pointed out that Durkon actually wears shoes. I can only imagine that if shoes AREN'T drawn that it means the shoe is fairly standard, maybe flimsy, and just plain non-magical. It doesn't necessarily mean the character is barefoot. I'd find it hard to believe THAT many people wander about like that.

So you're saying Elan's shoes are magical?

The point just got pointed a few posts ago. They have shoes. But since Durkon is now confirmed with shoes, I'd find it likely that V will get them too. I can add them onto the art if you'd like, then.

Jaxzan Proditor

2014-04-01, 09:34 PM

I'll never forget it. Ever. :smalleek:

I'm gonna hold you to that promise. :smallbiggrin:

Cuthalion

2014-04-01, 09:45 PM

I'm gonna hold you to that promise. :smallbiggrin:

Shoot. :smalltongue:

The Recreator

2014-04-02, 02:04 AM

Living Oxymoron

2014-04-02, 03:03 AM

I'm a bit resistant to changes, but in general I liked the new style. The hands are kinda strange compared to how I saw them before (three-fingered hands are more acceptable in the old style than in the new one), but I think it's just a matter of being used to.

Vinyadan

2014-04-02, 03:48 AM

The way hands interacted with objects was what bothered me the most in the old style, so I am happy to see them change.
It is a pretty big overhaul. The canvas size also increased, and I find it good, because the old one really had gotten tiny for the quantity of words in the balloons. The consistent use of movement lines as transparent layers is something else I enjoy, but I suppose they had already been used a few times (I can't remember when).
Perspective seems to have got more importance. And the main layout stayed the same.

So I'm happy for the change. The new font is the only thing I am not all that sure about, but it is well readable, and that's the only thing that counts to me.

Boring McReader

2014-04-02, 01:31 PM

It is incredibly easy. I am not going to do it.

If the outline were any thinner, the hands would stand out from everything else around them and look more out of place. You found the right balance. I don't think you could improve on them without giving up the trident shape, and that opens up another can of worms.

Another reason for the uncanny valley effect might be the way the noodle hands are always facing the reader. It's easier to fill in the orientation mentally when looking at solid black lines. Again, there's not a good alternative, and on the whole the new hands fit in with the rest of the style.

Out of curiosity, did you experiment with darker skin tones in place of black for skin outlines? It probably wouldn't be an improvement, but I can't visualize it well enough to judge.

Also out of curiosity, roughly how much of each strip is drawn from scratch? I always assumed most of the characters and objects were rearranged vector dolls, limbs included. Knowing the drawing method won't change my appreciation of the art or the work it requires, except to add a little insight into how the art comes into being.

gerryq

2014-04-02, 08:11 PM

Stuff like this quickly becomes invisible to me, kind of like dust and spiderwebs. But when I notice the new hands they seem very big and rigid. Everything else seems fine. But that said, I didn't really give it a thought until I saw the thread.

Cuthalion

2014-04-03, 03:21 PM

Aaaand Roy.

http://i.imgur.com/2ZpYSxi.png

Smolder

2014-04-03, 03:30 PM

Aaaand Roy.

The perspective on the top rim of his boots is a nice touch.

We'll have to wait and see if the Giant does the same.

hamishspence

2014-04-03, 03:32 PM

The Fantasy fantasy stuff:

http://www.cafepress.com/orderofthestick/8296606

also had the noodley appendages, a while back.

Maybe those were the prototype?

laggerific

2014-04-03, 03:34 PM

Whatever it takes to keep this comic alive. But I'll be forced to accept this change, as I doubt I'll be able to do anything to mitigate it. I love this comic, but part of what I love is the brilliance in its simplicity. I'm sure the effort involved has been simplified so that it isn't a huge stretch to implement, so not worried there.

I do miss the simplicity...but Rich needs to continue to grow. So far, it hasn't gone as far as Penny Arcade's style in completely losing the feel, so that's a good thing.

Smolder

2014-04-03, 03:42 PM

Honestly, the best part of this comic is the writing. The visuals were always beside the point.

Cuthalion

2014-04-03, 04:20 PM

The Fantasy fantasy stuff:

http://www.cafepress.com/orderofthestick/8296606

also had the noodley appendages, a while back.

Maybe those were the prototype?

Those also had the fancy hands, though. I imagine that's more work than Rich wants to do.

Estelindis

2014-04-04, 07:57 AM

The Fantasy fantasy stuff:

http://www.cafepress.com/orderofthestick/8296606

also had the noodley appendages, a while back.
Yes, but I think they looked better because of the gloves. There's just something "off" about the new hands, from my perspective. I think that every other aspect of the new art style looks great. However, I accept that Rich is going to keep using his own best judgement rather than changing the hands based on forum comment.

Hardcore

2014-04-04, 08:10 AM

Honestly, the best part of this comic is the writing. The visuals were always beside the point.

Yep. The problem is that the way the story is told and the kind of jokes made, are inseparably connected to the style. Imagine these durkon jokes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0682.html) being told using very realistic art (a la Marvel). A dwarven cleric attacking a a palmtree with a hammer? Would be much more weird than fun. But not in a stick comic. If RB want to go realistic then he better do so when story is over or using a sideproject (Scoundrél perhaps?). After all the slow pace of change still mean that, unless is slow or stops, we risk see the end game being done in Marvel or DC Comics style. What would be the Point of that???
The "K.I.S.S. test", "Less is more", "Do not make changes for the changes sake", "If it is not broken, don't fix it" etc etc. Wise words that are with us for good reasons.
To put it shortly: -"Stop try non-stick the stickies! They are nothing to be ashamed of, on the contrary a source of pride!"

I Think RB need to remember that he is one of the of the most succesfull artist in these times. His talent alone have given him a job many Dream of, and that going solo! If he need constant reminders of it then I direct him to the 1.2 million dollars he got recently.
This by a story about stick figures that have moved the Hearts and minds of thousands of people all over the World. (Myself i wouldn't toss a coin after a run of the mill Hero comic.)

Ok, I am done with the soapbox now. Thanks for lending it to me.

Jaxzan Proditor

2014-04-04, 01:44 PM

Yes, but I think they looked better because of the gloves. There's just something "off" about the new hands, from my perspective. I think that every other aspect of the new art style looks great. However, I accept that Rich is going to keep using his own best judgement rather than changing the hands based on forum comment.

Another thing different about those hands is that, in addition to having three fingers like the OOTS figures do now, they also have thumbs. Their hands are also proportioned more like human hands, whereas the fingers in OOTS look a little like tridents. To me, they were a little distracting at first, but already I don't mind them.

Kish

2014-04-04, 02:17 PM

So you're saying Elan's shoes are magical?
Yes. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0130.html)

(Although a certain bandit camp scene showed Elan producing the boots from hammerspace and putting them on instead of wearing them constantly, for some reason.)

Keltest

2014-04-04, 03:06 PM

Yes. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0130.html)

(Although a certain bandit camp scene showed Elan producing the boots from hammerspace and putting them on instead of wearing them constantly, for some reason.)

Maybe he doesn't like the color?

Unisus

2014-04-04, 04:19 PM

Aaaand Roy.

http://i.imgur.com/2ZpYSxi.png

Oh nooo! You got him all wrong - look at his boots, they have the same size! ;)

Soylent Dave

2014-04-04, 11:07 PM

I really like the new style.

As always, the most impressive thing about Rich's style is the way he does so much with so little - and that extends in this case to making what comes across as a huge improvement by ultimately changing very little about the art.

I think far from 'abandoning stick art' or 'attempting to un-stick' the comic, Rich is continuing to refine and expand what 'stick figure' means.

We got a hint of this style from the Calendar, and I'm glad he's taken those ideas further & implemented them into the strip proper.

shamgar001

2014-04-04, 11:57 PM

skim172

2014-04-04, 11:58 PM

Overall, I'm okay with everything. What really throws me off is what people call the "noodle" - the arms and legs. I really would like it if either they were all black - a simple and clean look - or that they were a bit thicker - so it doesn't feel like a bodily deformation of some sort.

I guess what I'm saying is that I wish the limbs were a little simpler or a little more complex in representation - it feels stuck in an unfortunate in-between right now.

Agh, I hate complaining like this ... maybe it'll grow on me.

The font was a bit of a surprise, because I liked the old font. But I expect that adjustment will be an easy one for the readers - for me, at least.

Rodin

2014-04-05, 12:37 AM

Oddly, I noticed the font and not the arms and legs. Huh.

Of course, now that they're pointed out, it's one of those "can't un-see" things.

I'm sure that'll go away shortly along with my newly found tongue awareness.

Domino Quartz

2014-04-05, 02:20 AM

I have to say that the most jarring change for me (not in a bad way, more of a neutral "Whoa, that's different" kind of way) was the new font. I really like the new "noodle" arms and legs, having already seen it in a comic that borrowed Rich's art style. It looked good there and it looks good in OotS. I didn't notice the "flesh tridents" until somebody pointed them out and referred to them as such, and now I can't unsee them.:smallmad:

pwning doodes

2014-04-05, 09:18 AM

I also hate the new art style. The simple three pronged black lines were much better.

Anajamois

2014-04-05, 12:29 PM

I re-read this strip three times, and remember my reactions.

The first time, I noticed nothing.
The second time, I finally noticed the changes on the second panel, and my attention was diverted to the hands, which bothered me.
The third time, I had gotten used to the new style and stopped noticing the hands by the end of it.

To conclude, it isn't really a problem for me. Normally I despise change, but this one is minor enough that I rapidly got used to it.

As of then I've become eager to see whether Haley actually wears pants/sleeves or not, and whether Roy has gauntlets or bare hands. I remain cautiously optimistic.

zimmerwald1915

2014-04-05, 12:47 PM

As of then I've become eager to see whether Haley actually wears pants/sleeves or not, and whether Roy has gauntlets or bare hands. I remain cautiously optimistic.
Haley wears pants. This has been evident since strip 1. Strip 675 shows that up until that point she had been wearing long pants, and implies that she bought short[er] pants. The calendar shows that her old top was sleeveless, and the top she bought in 657 is sleeveless as well. Her "resistance leader" outfit might have sleeves, but we'll probably never see it again, so who knows?

Bundin

2014-04-05, 12:50 PM

I'm with Anajamois here. I noticed the change in the limbs only on my second read, went 'huh, not sure about this', and stopped noticing it on the third. Overall, I think the comic looks way more detailed, which is good. I generally read every comic at least twice (first a quick read to see what happens, then a more careful read which includes a good look at the art) and I have no problem whatsoever with the new hands.

The one thing that did annoy me even after the second read is so minor that it's not even worth mentioning. But I will anyway: it's the slant of the exclamation marks :p I'd like them to be a little less slanted in an ideal word.

In short: I like what I see :)

Anajamois

2014-04-05, 12:51 PM

Haley wears pants. This has been evident since strip 1. Strip 675 shows that up until that point she had been wearing long pants, and implies that she bought short[er] pants. The calendar shows that her old top was sleeveless, and the top she bought in 657 is sleeveless as well. Her "resistance leader" outfit might have sleeves, but we'll probably never see it again, so who knows?

For goodness sake, give a man something to look forward to, why don't you?

zimmerwald1915

2014-04-05, 01:28 PM

For goodness sake, give a man something to look forward to, why don't you?
There's still Roy's hands :smalltongue:

Personally, I'm looking forward to V's and Belkar's feet, sleeves, and cloaks.

lio45

2014-04-05, 04:35 PM

I really have one question... Does Rich really think the limbs/hands art modification was something that was actually needed?

"If it ain't broke, don't mess with it."

Seems like this move is an answer to a question no one asked. Even Rich himself, in that 2004 quote, was basically saying that those simple limbs (shoes not drawn) helped keep the art less busy.

I get that he might have changed in mind at some point during the last decade, but IMHO there was nothing wrong with the classic Stick style... Why such a change after nearly 1,000 strips?

Shale

2014-04-05, 05:34 PM

Probably because he's been drawing in that same simplified style for almost a thousand strips.

Porthos

2014-04-05, 06:17 PM

I would also point out that the art has been evolving the entire strip.

Compare and contrast the following mountain scenes:

Mountains in the background of Azure City. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0426.html)
Mountains in the background of Windy Canyon. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0936.html)

Simple lines in the former, highly detailed peaks in the latter.

Mount Celestia is represented by a plain, vanilia mountain, with no texture. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0493.html)
Cavern walls now have texture. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0837.html)

People have noted elsewhere the difference of spells then and now:

Fireball. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0099.html)
Fireball! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0345.html)
Fireball!! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0799.html)

I said.... FIREBALL!!!! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0919.html) :smallcool:

Yes, there are times when the Art Evolution is more apparent than others. But the art of OOTS has been constantly changing. And it's not like critters that once has thin lines for legs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0136.html) never got upgraded along the way (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0942.html).

In fact, Mr. Scruffy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots00266.html) got upgraded (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0520.html) over 400 strips ago. And I don't recall people complaining about that. :smallwink:

This is really just a continuation of Rich continuously tinkering with his art. Now this isn't to say that it is necessarily good change. That's in the eye of the beholder, after all. But change has occured all the time in this strip. Including to important characters.

PS: I somehow doubt that Bloodfeast would have been depicted like this in the early days of the strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0922.html). :smallwink:

Gift Jeraff

2014-04-05, 08:13 PM

Fireball!! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0779.html)

I think ye meant 'Empowered Fireball!' (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0799.html)

Porthos

2014-04-05, 08:21 PM

I think ye meant 'Empowered Fireball!' (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0799.html)

Thanks. Edited.

lio45

2014-04-05, 09:45 PM

Probably because he's been drawing in that same simplified style for almost a thousand strips.

In my mind that's a reason to keep it, not a reason to ditch it.

The strip has always been function-over-form and that was one of its main characteristics... this change to the art seems a weird (and really not needed) move to me. I'm puzzled as to why Rich has felt it was something he should do.

Porthos

2014-04-05, 09:56 PM

In my mind that's a reason to keep it, not a reason to ditch it.

The strip has always been function-over-form and that was one of its main characteristics... this change to the art seems a weird (and really not needed) move to me. I'm puzzled as to why Rich has felt it was something he should do.

Evolve or die? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0610.html)

Perhaps, just perhaps, Rich wants to continuously improve his craft so HE continues to get satisfaction out of it. Getting in a rut artistically speaking can be just as bad as it can when it comes to the written word.

Besides, it's not like this is a HUGE change. The hands are a little thicker and colored in. The legs/arms are now two lines instead of one.

Was it a little jarring? Sure. The increase in the comic size probably contributed. But, IMO, this isn't that big of a change. All things considered, at least.

oppyu

2014-04-05, 10:14 PM

Grogmir

2014-04-06, 02:24 AM

Don't worry, all this change only seems scary because it's new. We'll all be celebrating the vaguely horrifying flesh pitchfork hands as a staple of this comic's unique character before long, and viciously tearing down any dissidents with snark and venom.

Maybe... But The Giant has entered into Uncanny Valley for some, it isn't just because its new ,it might never go away. I've read 947 everyday for a week. Still looks weird to me. We've had art upgrades before yep. But nothing as big as this.

Evolve or Die? Well It was evolving, but while also remaining true to the original concept. Honestly when I look at 947 I dont see OOTS characters. And you can argue semantics all you like but they're just not stick figures.

But this is The Giants' train. I never came for the art, awesome as it was. I came for the epic tale.

Am I looking forward to what TG puts out with the new style, yep, is it tinged with a little bit of hmm. Yep.

Porthos

2014-04-06, 02:42 AM

Evolve or Die? Well It was evolving, but while also remaining true to the original concept. Honestly when I look at 947 I dont see OOTS characters. And you can argue semantics all you like but they're just not stick figures.

Sure, I get that. But even before this latest art evolution, I went on record as saying that I didn't think Rich was really drawing a Stick Figure Comic anymore. Not under any defintion I found useful at any rate:

(posted back on Feb 15th, 2014)

You know, I'm not even sure it is fair to call The Order of the Stick a stick figure comic anymore.

It was pushing the boundries of stick-figure art at the beginning of the run and I think it might have blasted through it by now. The only thing that is really 'stickish' anymore are some of the arms and legs of characters. And even that is variable (in 'upgraded art', the arms and legs tend to be two lines instead of one. Like the Fantasy Fantasy shirts, for instance (http://www.cafepress.com/orderofthestick.592832228)). And that gets thrown (nearly) completely out the window when there are pants, sleeves, and the like (only hands and feet stay 'stickish' - and even then not always).

Trouble is, I'm having difficulty figuring out what to call it. "Line art" certainly doesn't work, as that already is predefined as something else. But I really don't know the other terms that are out there in the art world that might cover this sort of style.

Still, this is something I've been thinking on and off for a while now, and it's strips like today's that make me think whatever this art style is nowadays, it really isn't stick figure anymore.

...

Burlewian would probably be a bit much, wouldn't it? :smalltongue:

"The only thing that is really 'stickish' anymore are some of the arms and legs of characters. And even that is variable (in 'upgraded art', the arms and legs tend to be two lines instead of one. Like the Fantasy Fantasy shirts, for instance (http://www.cafepress.com/orderofthestick.592832228)). And that gets thrown (nearly) completely out the window when there are pants, sleeves, and the like (only hands and feet stay 'stickish' - and even then not always)."

My comment there pretty much makes me a future psychic, I think. :smalltongue:

Thing is though, how can one take one look at something like Bloodfeast the Extremeinator and say IT was in a Stick Figure Comic? Or Enor?

IMO, this was the last bulwark crumpling under the onslaught of Mr. Burlew's pen. Or mouse, as the case may be. :smallwink:

ETA:::

And, as a matter of fact, as I was trawing through the archives, I found that the statue of Tarquin we saw waaaaaaaaaay back in Comic #750 looks almost identical to the current style of drawing characters (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0750.html). And I certainly don't recall much outcry then. :smallwink:

I wonder how much of this, if any of it, is due to the long layoff of the comic. All those pentup analyzation urges gots to go somewhere. :smallbiggrin: So when we were collectively smacked with a new-ish art style after a long layoff, it got more attention than it might have.

Something to ponder.

I DO think there is another factor at play as well. Sadly since it is on the list of Forbidden Topics, I really can't discuss it that much. Except to allude to the possibility that as more and more new-ish strips are posted, it won't seem so, well, new. :smallwink:

Cavenskull

2014-04-06, 03:39 AM

Maybe... But The Giant has entered into Uncanny Valley for some, it isn't just because its new ,it might never go away. I've read 947 everyday for a week. Still looks weird to me. We've had art upgrades before yep. But nothing as big as this.

Evolve or Die? Well It was evolving, but while also remaining true to the original concept. Honestly when I look at 947 I dont see OOTS characters. And you can argue semantics all you like but they're just not stick figures.

But this is The Giants' train. I never came for the art, awesome as it was. I came for the epic tale.
That epic tale exists only because The Giant chose to Evolve rather than Die. If he stuck with his original concept, the comic would never have progressed beyond a joke-a-day format that poked fun at whatever version of D&D he wanted to skewer.

The controversy over the art changes reminds me of when people were getting squicked out over Mr. Scruffy disembowling the commoner (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0780.html) and Redcloak imploding resistance fighters (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0826.html). There were people reacting as if The Giant had pasted in photographs of real dismembered corpses. Sure, the art does take a bit of getting used to, since it feels like a bigger change than his normal upgrades are. But at the end of the day these are still deliberately simple, stylized characters and I think people will quickly get used to them. Substantial art upgrades aren't new for comics. I've followed several long running comic strips, and it's often shocking to take a look at the earliest strips after being used to the current art style. To that end, The Giant has been far more consistent than most. Personally, I really like the changes, but either way I think the majority of us will soon accept the art style as the new normal. It just doesn't seem like a change that's worth the level of debate it's received.

And Porthos, I agree. They never struck me as truly being stick figures, even way back at the beginning. If I were to envision a comic featuring stick figures, I would expect it to look much like xkcd (http://xkcd.com/). Having solid torsos with recognizable features such as nipples and navels shouldn't be possible on a true stick figure. As far as describing the style, I'd just call it 'OOTS style' or something similar. In my opinion it's something sufficiently unique to The Giant, that associating it with him or the name of his comic seems more appropriate than trying to fit it into some pre-existing category. It works for other forms of art.

Keltest

2014-04-06, 06:29 AM

Maybe we can call them "tree figures" because they have sticks coming out of a trunk.

*ducks tomato*

Jaxzan Proditor

2014-04-06, 06:52 AM

Grogmir

2014-04-06, 07:04 AM

Thanks for the honest thought out replies.

Porthos, thats a really good point, Just looked back at Enor and Bloodfeast, not a lot sticky about them indeed. Good spot on the Tarquin statue.

Am i looking forward to seeing what TG does with the upgrade, darn tootin' I am. It is the first time i've done a double take at an art upgrade. Yes. I have to say it is.

Only time will tell if its an improvement (for me - TG obviously thinks it is).

Bongos

2014-04-06, 12:49 PM

I prefer the older simplified art more better.

lio45

2014-04-06, 01:06 PM

Evolve or die? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0610.html)

Wait, some of you actually seriously think that going from the classic Stick-style arms to the noodly appendages was a matter of life or death of the comic?

Moving from gag-a-day to a planned, long story is basically the only real "evolve or die" moment the comic had.

This isn't one. At all.

Perhaps, just perhaps, Rich wants to continuously improve his craft so HE continues to get satisfaction out of it.

I would tend to think that Rich gets most of his satisfaction out of the story he crafted, not out of the level of skill needed to draw the characters...

Getting in a rut artistically speaking can be just as bad as it can when it comes to the written word.

Would you consider Randall Munroe (xkcd) "stuck in a rut"?

You really think he should alter the style of the classic xkcd stick figures, now, as of April 2014, and xkcd comic ~#1350?

You think the future of xkcd is endangered if the author doesn't alter the style of the classic xkcd stick figures soon?

News for you: the "art" in those comics isn't the main reason they got popular...

Porthos

2014-04-06, 01:42 PM

Wait, some of you actually seriously think that going from the classic Stick-style arms to the noodly appendages was a matter of life or death of the comic?

Yes. Yes, that is exactly what I think. Why, I suspect that if Rich hadn't done this, he would have canceled the whole thing and gone back to graphic design work. Or whatever he was up to before OotS. Yes, that would be EXACTLY what I was implying by linking to a famous strip that argued that stagnation can be a bad thing. :smallwink:

Moving from gag-a-day to a planned, long story is basically the only real "evolve or die" moment the comic had.

This isn't one. At all.

In case my sarcasm wasn't quite blatant enough above, I was saying that it is pretty obvious to me that Rich constantly wants to tinker with his art. I think you are focusing too much on the "or die" part and ignoring the broader point I and others were making. Hell, I only chose that strip for the evolve bit. I was more focusing on all of the strips leading up to it.

...

Well that, and the sake of a cheap laugh. What can I say? Looking for cheap laughs is a calling card of mine. :smalltongue:

Would you consider Randall Munroe (xkcd) "stuck in a rut"?

You really think he should alter the style of the classic xkcd stick figures, now, as of April 2014, and xkcd comic ~#1350?

You think the future of xkcd is endangered if the author doesn't alter the style of the classic xkcd stick figures soon?

Just because one person is satisfied not to tinker with a 'proven formula' doesn't mean that all artists are (and before anyone pipes up, the desire to tinker is neither a good nor bad thing). And I find it slightly ironic that you use xkcd as an example given that it too has pushed the boundaries at times (the famous [near] infinite canvas comes to mind). But the simpler point is that all one has to do is look over the course of The Order of the Stick. When has Rich NOT tinkered with his art?

Serious question. As I and others have pointed throughout this thread, it's been going under constant evolution.

Besides, the more I think about this, the more I think this is a minor change in the grand scheme of things. Of the things that are generating the most heat, the hands are now slightly bigger and colored in. Arms and legs are two lines instead of one.

Hardly a earth shattering change.

As I have said upthread, I think a combination of factors made this stand out more than other shifts.

News for you: the "art" in those comics isn't the main reason they got popular...

Given some of the responses on this thread, one might understand how I think that some people here take the art pretty seriously. :smalltongue:

Which, come to think of it, raises an interesting dichotomy. If the art style isn't why people come here, why the 8 pages and counting of discussion?

But, ultimately, the only person who has to be happy with the 'new' art style is Rich himself. He almost certainly didn't do it on a whim. What I and others have been attempting to do is figure out why. Hence my examples and arguments I've been making throughout this thread.

jere7my

2014-04-06, 10:27 PM

Maybe... But The Giant has entered into Uncanny Valley for some

Is "uncanny valley" going to replace "deus ex machina" as the winner of the Most Frequently Misused Term Award on these boards?

Jaxzan Proditor

2014-04-07, 05:34 AM

Is "uncanny valley" going to replace "deus ex machina" as the winner of the Most Frequently Misused Term Award on these boards?
I think that the first term is a better one to misuse than the second one, relatively speaking.

Unisus

2014-04-07, 09:59 AM

Is "uncanny valley" going to replace "deus ex machina" as the winner of the Most Frequently Misused Term Award on these boards?

Actually i'm not so sure "uncanny valley" is that far from the point here.

DeliaP

2014-04-07, 10:45 AM

Actually i'm not so sure "uncanny valley" is that far from the point here.

So, I just went to the Wikipedia article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley) on Uncanny Valley, just to see. The opening sentence is

"The uncanny valley is a hypothesis in the field of human aesthetics which holds that when human features look and move almost, but not exactly, like natural human beings, it causes a response of revulsion among some human observers."

So, what is meant by human features that look and move "almost, but not exactly" like real humans? Well, it actually has a useful graph. The uncanny valley is a dip centered on corpse/zombie. On the one side it rises steeply up to healthy human. On the other side it rises up steeply before declining. On the decline it passes through humanoid robot and stuffed animal toy before getting to industrial robot.

Examples given of Uncanny Valley effects in animation include the movie Polar Express. It's where the already quite realistic animation gets closer to realistic, and suddenly seems repellent. An example given of coming out of the Uncanny Valley on the realism side was the movie Beowulf, where apparently Grendel got too realistic to actually be scary.

My conclusion: noodley appendages with pitchfork hands and round faces with no noses are so far out of the Uncanny Valley, (on the stylised unrealistic side) that yes, it is a complete misuse of the term.

Zejety

2014-04-07, 10:45 AM

Actually i'm not so sure "uncanny valley" is that far from the point here.

OOTS still features a much higher level of abstraction than most cartoons or comics. I think we are far away from UC territory.

Unisus

2014-04-07, 11:22 AM

Uncanny Valley can be used for an area between abstract and realistic, where the stage of realism is more alienating than the abstract. As people aren't all the same, this is not specified by a certain abstraction/realism proportion but has blurred boundaries.

So saying that this new art style seems to enter Uncanny Valley for some people is not a misuse of the word.

(And yes, the graphs for UV are just approximations)

rgrekejin

2014-04-07, 11:29 AM

OOTS still features a much higher level of abstraction than most cartoons or comics. I think we are far away from UC territory.

Yeah, Uncanny Valley probably isn't what people mean when they use that expression here, but it's the closest readily available term that means something like what they're trying to say, which I think is:

Before, when the artwork was sketchy and required a lot of imagination, it was okay, because the artwork was *supposed to be* sketchy and require a lot of imagination. Now that the artwork is less sketchy, it requires us to fill in less with out imagination, and instead of being poorly detailed to leave the details to the mind of the beholder, it is just (better, but still relatively) poorly detailed. The fact that it's less abstract makes it less visually appealing, not more.

I understand that position. I'm not wild about the art change myself, especially Roy's armor. I may yet change my mind, but I kind of doubt that I will. Not that it matters very much - the art itself was always pretty low on my list of reasons why I love this comic, so my thinking slightly less of it isn't gonna kill the comic for me. Plus, if it helps keep Rich entertained/interested in the work he's doing, more so the better.

fan4battle

2014-04-07, 11:42 AM

What I don't like is the new speed "shapes". I think it worked better before, when they were just lines - plus they had a contrasting color that helped distinguish this visual indicator from everything else. The color I wouldn't miss, but I think it'd work better with lines, not these shapes.

Baelzar

2014-04-07, 12:26 PM

To me, the hand change makes the 3-fingered pitchfork that much more noticeable. Before, when they were simple stick arms and hands (and legs), they looked right because they were stick figures. Who cares what the hands look like on a stick figure?

Now, they're in your face. The charming old-school stick figure style doesn't translate well into nu-Stick, or Common Core Stick Figure style. I have to notice them because the Giant wants me to notice them. And they look weird.

Hydro

2014-04-07, 01:42 PM

So, we occasionally have threads over on 4chan /tg/ when a new strip comes out, and the consensus there is that the new art is mostly awesome but the skin-colored-sticklimbs are gross.

That probably isn't news at this point.

Vinyadan

2014-04-07, 01:48 PM

Honestly, this looks more like LEGO Valley to me. I just wish the hands were yellow.

Ridureyu

2014-04-07, 02:10 PM

So, on a scale of 1-10, how illogically upset are people that the art style changed a little bit over the years?

(edit) Well, some folks are trying to make this into a moral issue. That answers my question!

Nephrahim

2014-04-07, 03:04 PM

Love Roy's new look.

Emperordaniel

2014-04-07, 03:50 PM

Looking at the first panel of page two on today's comment has left no question in my mind: I'm loving these new art upgrades. :biggrin:

Thanatosia

2014-04-07, 04:43 PM

shamgar001

2014-04-07, 05:12 PM

The water in the big panel looks amazing.

Keltest

2014-04-07, 06:15 PM

Ive decided I can live with the lego stick trident hand things. But now im bothered by the arms and legs of Roy and Durkon. Durkon especially seems to lack any visible joints, which is particularly noticeable since he is in full plate mail. Roy has been previously shown to wear a breastplate, which makes seeing his sleeves and pants being the same color a little odd.

Kalmageddon

2014-04-07, 07:19 PM

Yeah, the new figures look more Lego then Stick to me. I too would be far more comfortable with yellow pincers on these new arms then these wierd Tridents.

The Fleshy Tridents are just so deeply deeply wrong. THey disturb me on a level that I can only attribute to an Uncaney Valley effect, as far from normal UV effects as the figures may still be.

I think the new look would be fine on legs - they are thicker on people... but I think he should have stuck to the old style on arms and especially hands.

Agreed.
Also, Roy's arms and hands look terrible. When they were just black lines, my mind filled the gaps and figured that he probably was a muscular dude with short sleeves, now he looks slim and thin, not at all phisically imposing, because now his arms are too complex to just consider a visual approximation. Plus, long sleeves? No, just no.

I really don't like this halfway stick figure halfway realistic style, I think one either goes all the way and make the characters more detailed and realistically proportioned or back to the black lines for the limbs. This is neither fish nor fowl and it really makes it hard to accept, at least for me.

Lissou

2014-04-07, 08:15 PM

I really like it! When I started a comic and took some inspiration from oots (not as much as the usual oots-style webcomics, but still), one thing I struggled with that the arms. I wanted them to have more detail than Rich's, but it ended up a lot of effort to make individual forearms and arms and bend them at the elbow, then merge them... I wish I had thought of this solution instead! If I ever go back to it, I'll draw inspiration from that.

I'm enjoying the extra detail, and it's still very simple. And if I may be honest... I didn't notice >.> Then people started talking about the "new noodle style" and I thought maybe it was and April Fool's joke I was out of the loop about. Until I went to check, and then I noticed, and I can't believe I didn't at first. I mean, I did notice the change of font...
My excuse is that I was too distracted by adorable Durkon with his prepubescent beard hairs. And excited the comic and forum were back.

Onto more specific things, since now we have a comparison for some characters... I really like Roy's armour. It looks like horse-riding armour or something (I'm no specialist). I can visualise it a lot better now. And I like that it's different in design, compared to Durkon's. I can't wait to see the rest of the crew.

zimmerwald1915

2014-04-07, 08:33 PM

I'm enjoying the extra detail, and it's still very simple. And if I may be honest... I didn't notice >.> Then people started talking about the "new noodle style" and I thought maybe it was and April Fool's joke I was out of the loop about.
Just as an aside, this was never a possibility. The news that the hiatus would end on March 31 came with a disclaimer that the comic posted at that time would not be an April Fools joke.

lio45

2014-04-07, 09:47 PM

Before, when the artwork was sketchy and required a lot of imagination, it was okay, because the artwork was *supposed to be* sketchy and require a lot of imagination. Now that the artwork is less sketchy, it requires us to fill in less with out imagination, and instead of being poorly detailed to leave the details to the mind of the beholder, it is just (better, but still relatively) poorly detailed. The fact that it's less abstract makes it less visually appealing, not more.

Also, Roy's arms and hands look terrible. When they were just black lines, my mind filled the gaps and figured that he probably was a muscular dude with short sleeves, now he looks slim and thin, not at all phisically imposing, because now his arms are too complex to just consider a visual approximation. Plus, long sleeves? No, just no.

I really don't like this halfway stick figure halfway realistic style, I think one either goes all the way and make the characters more detailed and realistically proportioned or back to the black lines for the limbs. This is neither fish nor fowl and it really makes it hard to accept, at least for me.

You two are exactly right. You've put my feelings in words a lot better than I have managed to so far. :P

Lissou

2014-04-07, 10:56 PM

Just as an aside, this was never a possibility. The news that the hiatus would end on March 31 came with a disclaimer that the comic posted at that time would not be an April Fools joke.

Oh, I didn't think the Giant made a joke. I thought a fan had decided to start talking about the "new noodle style" as a joke, and maybe it caught on. Especially since the first time I saw someone mention it was after a post that was full of silliness, I thought someone just thought of "noodle style" as a funny phrase, used it, and people ran with it.
Because I really didn't picture this from the word noodle. I pictures cylindres and stuff. To me this is still stick figure, just a bit more detailed.

I enjoy the perspective on Roy's boots in the new update, by the way. And I have to say... I'm surprised by the amount of people whose reaction could be summed up and exaggerated into "Oh, I didn't notice... it sucks and is ruining everything!" because if you didn't nothing, there is no way it can have such a negative impact, can it?

Codex

2014-04-08, 12:21 AM

To be perfectly honest, I don't even notice. I find myself going back through strips, and going "oh yeah, that didn't always look like that." People are complaining about how Roy isn't buff, but I think it's excused because hey he still needs some limits to keep it from looking too un-stick figure. O-Chul, of course, will have buff arms and a full six pack, cause he's O-Chul.

skim172

2014-04-08, 12:25 AM

Hmm ... still not used to the noodle arms. Actually, I'm a little more bothered by two other things.

1. The lack of joints. It ... it really adds to the "shriveled deformed" sensation I keep getting to see an arm curl like a pipe cleaner.

2. They're too long. For almost all the characters, it kinda looks like they stretch past the knees.

I could really honestly be okay with this ... if it wasn't for these quibbles. I just wish the arms were a little thicker, a little shorter, and maybe give them an elbow.

I'm liking the characters who have sleeves - Durkon's mom, crew member at the bottom left - but those with the skinny arms ... "Uncanny valley" is right.

The trident hands ... I could live with, but I do admit it's odd to see Darkon grab Durkon's beard without closing his fingers.

Codex

2014-04-08, 12:30 AM