Q: Help me optimize my Dread Necromancer please?

[Dalkael]

Hi there. Been browsing these forums for quite some time now, and I must say you seem to be an incredibly knowledgeable bunch. I recently started playing D&D 3.5, a few months ago, and have been having a blast. I've played various types of classes, but never a caster.

So recently I was given the opportunity to join in an evil campaign that has been running for some time, which means I'll be starting at lvl 18. I wanted to play a necromancer of some sorts, and fell in love with the Dread Necromancer. It suits my character perfectly. However, all the builds I've found seem to focus on how the DN is best for controlling large amounts of undead, whereas I prefer to have a few high quality undead. Is it so bad that I should basically change my class, or can the DN be used anyhow?

I've given building the character a shot, though this is still without items. I have quite a bit of gold to spend, though the exact amount I've forgotten. In any case, this is my build so far without any items added:

Lady Jayne (human female, DN 18)
Abilities
Str: 8
Dex: 16
Con: 8
Int: 12
Wis: 10
Cha: 22

I decided that since I'm going pure DN, and starting at lvl 18, I don't really need to worry about Con for the remaining 2 lvls, which is also why I didn't take Tomb-Tainted Soul in the feat list.

Feats:
Corpsecrafter
Fell Drain
Fell Frighten
Fell Animate
Leadership (?)
Nimble Bones
Practical Metamagic (Fell Frighten)
Practical Metamagic (Fell Drain)

As for the feats, I'm quite open to changes. My goal is to have a powerful spellcaster using necromancy, with several hardcore minions. Another reason for me using the PMM feats, is I've managed to talk my DM into letting me have a slaymate.

Advanced Learning:
For now, I've jotted down the following spells:
4. Kelgore's Grave Mist
8. Undead Lieutenant
12. Aura of Terror
16. Awaken Undead

At lvl 20 I will do the lich thing, and most likely use the homebrew epic DN lvls I found on this forum.

But anyway, any tips on how to alter this build into my perfect DN would be much appreciated.

The limitations and expectations: A pure 1-30 DN, capable of causing fear and panic, controlling a few badass minions, aside from the hordes of lesser undead.

[MadGreenSon]

As for the feats, I'm quite open to changes. My goal is to have a powerful spellcaster using necromancy, with several hardcore minions. Another reason for me using the PMM feats, is I've managed to talk my DM into letting me have a slaymate.


You are a winning Dread Necro already! So... How ya transporting the 'lil sprite? :smalltongue:



Advanced Learning:
For now, I've jotted down the following spells:
4. Kelgore's Grave Mist
8. Undead Lieutenant
12. Aura of Terror
16. Awaken Undead

At lvl 20 I will do the lich thing, and most likely use the homebrew epic DN lvls I found on this forum.

But anyway, any tips on how to alter this build into my perfect DN would be much appreciated.

The limitations and expectations: A pure 1-30 DN, capable of causing fear and panic, controlling a few badass minions, aside from the hordes of lesser undead.

I recommend Animate Dread Warrior (http://dndtools.eu/spells/unapproachable-east--33/animate-dread-warrior--3468/). If nothing else then for later spellstiching. Powerful undead minions that don't count against your undead controlled? Yes please! Get that tattooed on as soon as you go Lich!

[Dalkael]

You are a winning Dread Necro already! So... How ya transporting the 'lil sprite? :smalltongue:
She'll be riding papoose style on my back! :smalltongue:




I recommend Animate Dread Warrior (http://dndtools.eu/spells/unapproachable-east--33/animate-dread-warrior--3468/). If nothing else then for later spellstiching. Powerful undead minions that don't count against your undead controlled? Yes please! Get that tattooed on as soon as you go Lich!

Cool. I only have UE as a pdf, haven't really read it much. I did notice that spell in one of the guides I read through. Which spell would you replace, then?

[OldTrees1]

Since you prefer a few quality undead over an army of mooks, I strongly recommend the Animate Dead Warrior spell (mentioned above).

You do still have both the Animate Dead (spell) and Command Undead (spell) control pools. Stick to animating 1 dragon corpse (no HD limit for animation) at a time and then shift it over to your Command Undead pool (no HD limit). This will give you 23-30HD mooks at your level.

[MadGreenSon]

She'll be riding papoose style on my back! :smalltongue:

When I first read that in the book I sprayed soda out of my nose laughing, it ruined the image of necromancers for me for quite awhile.:smalltongue:





Cool. I only have UE as a pdf, haven't really read it much. I did notice that spell in one of the guides I read through. Which spell would you replace, then?

How attached are you to Aura of Terror? Awaken Undead is pretty good if you're having a lot of zombies/skeletons, so I don't know if you want to get rid of it or not...

[Sith_Happens]

If you're dumping CON in anticipation of the capstone, you should probably be a Necropolitan until then.

[OldTrees1]

If you're dumping CON in anticipation of the capstone, you should probably be a Necropolitan until then.

This would require reserving money for a True Resurrection since the capstone (Lich Template) cannot be applied to an Undead.

[Dalkael]

How attached are you to Aura of Terror? Awaken Undead is pretty good if you're having a lot of zombies/skeletons, so I don't know if you want to get rid of it or not...

Not especially attached, it was a recommended spell from one of the builds. So if I swap that out for Animate Dread Warrior, I should be good. We do run into dragons a lot, the group has killed several of them already. I actually managed to get a medium green dragon, which I intend to either turn into a dracolich at some point, or buy a wish to make it larger so I can use it as a mount. I think the dracolich option is cooler though.

Sith_Happens: I did consider the necropolitan option, but since we have quite a solid (albeit evil) group, I don't think I will end up taking too much damage. There are a couple of healers in the group as well, I think I'll be ok till lvl 20. *knocks wood*

Oldtrees1: I knew a guy who always used the name Oldtree, from the Warhammer Alliance forums. Wouldn't happen to be you? :)

[OldTrees1]

I actually managed to get a medium green dragon, which I intend to either turn into a dracolich at some point, or buy a wish to make it larger so I can use it as a mount. I think the dracolich option is cooler though.

Oldtrees1: I knew a guy who always used the name Oldtree, from the Warhammer Alliance forums. Wouldn't happen to be you? :)

How would you be controlling the dracolich?

Nah, I have never been on that forum and my name is always plural.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

For items, be sure to get all the necessary effects (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items). I'd also include Metamagic Rods of Extend Spell and Chain Spell (CA), a Circlet of Rapid Casting (MIC), an Eternal Wand (MIC) of Hound of Doom (CW), and various items that boost your Rebuke/Bolster Undead ability. Keep in mind that you can add certain effects to existing items at no additional cost beyond a standalone item of that same effect per MIC p234. See if you can replace the one martial weapon proficiency at 1st level with Improved Unarmed Strike, and if so pick up Ascetic Mage and wear a Monk's Belt to add your Cha bonus to AC. You'll need to use Bracers of Armor or similar (two Eternal Wands of Greater Mage Armor) instead of wearing armor, but that should give you a considerably higher AC than you would get with armor.

Your familiar should definitely be the Ghostly Visage in FF, and it should always be possessing your character. During combat it can manifest to create a paralzying gaze, and as normal with a gaze attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#gazeAttacks) it can spend a standard action every round to force an opponent to save vs the gaze effect even if they're not looking or if they already made the save once that round.

I'd recommend taking two flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) (more here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?258440-The-quot-Best-quot-Flaws#30)) for two extra feats. Note that flaws must be taken 'when creating a character' so if you're creating the character at 18th level, your flaws can show up at any level you currently have.

Get Fell Energy Spell (http://dndtools.eu/feats/dragon-compendium--109/fell-energy-spell--3357/) (or a lesser metamagic rod of that if possible) and a means of casting Desecrate (Arcane Disciple: Evil and an Eternal Wand of Owl's Wisdom). Fell Energy increases any bonuses granted to undead by +2, so Desecrate will give undead +3 HP per HD instead of the normal +1, and with an evil altar nearby that will be doubled to +6 HP per HD! Note that your character can also benefit from this when becoming a Lich. Combined with Corpsecrafter and your DN 8 ability, undead you create will get +10 HP per HD.

[Fable Wright]

One thing you may consider is switching race to Illumian. Naenhoon lets you apply free metamagic to your spells twice per day, which would free up some feats from Practical Metamagic.

Mastery of the Dead seems like a surprisingly useful feat, if you ever face creatures not immune to Death spells. Ghosts have access to some fantastic debuff abilities. Draining Touch, Corrupting Gaze, and Telekinesis are particularly useful.

EDIT: Ooh, I just realized something. If you're not too attached to Undead Lieutenant and a few of your feats, here's a fun trick to pull.
Race: Illumian
Advanced Learning: Consumptive Field
Feats:
1st: Corpsecrafter
3rd: Spell Focus (Necromancy)
6th: Extend Spell
9th: Mastery of the Dead
12th: Persist Spell
15th: Nimble Bones
18th: Fell Drain
Use a 9th level spell to cast Persisted Consumptive Field (via Slaymate's cost reduction). Then, at any point later in the day when anything goes to negatives within 30ft of you, they have to make a Will save or die. (If they're Unconscious, as most creatures without Diehard will be, they don't get a save, due to an unfortunately worded clause in the DMG.) Now, Consumptive Field is a [Death] effect, so whenever anything is killed by it, Mastery of the Dead allows you to take a free action to make a caster level check to turn it into a Ghost under your control for 1 round/caster level. Note that your caster level is increasing for each kill Consumptive Field gets. Net effect: Any time something is brought to negatives near you, you gain much needed hit points, your spells become significantly stronger, and they turn into a ghost that you can command as a free action that has all the abilities and memories it had in life, plus some incredibly powerful debuffs.

If you want to go off the EVIL scale, you could replace Consumptive Field with Greater Consumptive Field (fueling it with your Naenhoon power), which affects every creature within 30ft of you with 9 or less hit points. (Which results in every commoner coming near you dying to fuel your unholy power.) This is extraordinarily effective at causing mundane terror in any area you go to, as people will be able to see that people you pass drop dead in your wake, rising as ghosts serving you.

For added EVIL fun in either version, squeeze in Leadership for a cult of 1st level commoner followers. Whenever you need fodder for increased caster level or need to throw Ghosts at an enemy to weaken them up, you have a ready source of fanatical minions on hand.

As a side effect, this raises your caster level to 27 for the purposes of Plague of Undead, meaning that you can make undead with up to 108 HD and take control of them with Command Undead rather than having them soak your Animate Dead pool. (Said minions cost 100gp each.)

EDIT^2: See if your DM will let you treat Harm and Greater Harm as Inflict spells. If he does, I recommend taking Maximize Spell and Mastery of Day and Night, possibly with Flaws. (Fell Animate is also really subpar when you have access to Plague of Undead, and Fell Drain is less useful than Maximized Energy Drain.) Mastery of Day and Night automatically maximizes all Inflict spells you cast, and being able to drop a Maximized Mass Harm out of a 9th level spell slot to deal 240 negative energy damage to anyone in a 20ft radius is pretty solid. Not to mention the terrifying potential of Naenhoon-based Energy Drain, for an automatic 8 negative levels on anything, no save. (Or at the very least, Maximized Enervates out of 6th level spell slots.)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

At level 18, your character could should have hired an NPC manifester for Psychic Reformation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm) a few times, and hired NPC spellcasters to use Permanency on her. I'd recommend you take a look at the Permanencied Detect Magic trick I posted here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?337866-3-5-BEG-Lich-build&p=17213663#post17213663), and be sure you hired a level 20 NPC spellcaster with a Ring of Enduring Arcana for a dispel DC of 35 on the Permanency. You should have a Ring of Enduring Arcana as well, so if you cast that at level 18 it would have a Dispel DC of 33.

[Sith_Happens]

This would require reserving money for a True Resurrection Revivify since the capstone (Lich Template) cannot be applied to an Undead.

Fixed that for you.

[RedMage125]

Instead of Leadership, you may want Undead Leadership from Libris Mortis.

Another good feat consideration might be Arcane Disciple (Deathbound domain). That will add some more spells to your repetoire. Normally the feat just "adds spells to your class list, and you may choose to learn them as normal for your class", but you spontaneously cast from your entire class list, so...

Taking this feat adds Awaken Undead to your spell list, as well, freeing up another Advanced Learning option for you.

And let me add that although direct-damage spells are usually not the most effecient way to go, you are expecting a lot of dragon fights. Dragons have BOATLOADS of hit points. Avasculate (a 7th level spell from the Deathbound domain) reduces an enemy's current hp by half, no save. They get a Fort save to see if they're stunned or not. Most dragons can make Fort saves no problem, but casting a spell that halves the target's hp is a pretty sweet battle opener.

[Sith_Happens]

you are expecting a lot of dragon fights. Dragons have BOATLOADS of hit points. Avasculate (a 7th level spell from the Deathbound domain) reduces an enemy's current hp by half, no save. They get a Fort save to see if they're stunned or not. Most dragons can make Fort saves no problem, but casting a spell that halves the target's hp is a pretty sweet battle opener.

Alternatively, Shivering Touch is a Necromancy spell.:smallamused:

[RedMage125]

Alternatively, Shivering Touch is a Necromancy spell.:smallamused:

Egads, dragons have CRAPPY dexterity scores. Coup de grace all the way, baby!