Age of Wonders 3

[Morty]

I figure that it might warrant its own thread. If it doesn't take, we'll continue in the General Gaming Thread. Anyhow, Age of Wonders 3 is now available for download. I poked around it some, and it seems as fun as it promised to be. Unfortunately, it doesn't run too smoothly, so it looks like I'll have to knock the details back even further.

[warty goblin]

Today is going to be one of those days I hate departmental seminar more than I usually hate departmental seminar. Usually it only stands between me and a three mile run and supper. Today it stands between me, a three mile run, supper, and Age of Wonders 3. On my new and enormous monitor no less...

[ChaosArchon]

I'm in the process of downloading it right now :D Can't wait to get into game and create an awesome empire. I was wondering whether you guys are gonna go to campaign first or just a random game so you can customize and create your own ruler and class/race combo? Personally I hate campaigns strategy games because I like designing my own leader.

[Cikomyr]

Been playing the tutorial. Doesn't seem buggy at all for me, and it runs very smoothly so far.

Damn computer is actually not stupid.. I got a game over in my 2nd battle after I accidently exposed my Rogue Sovereign to finish off a bunch of brigands. The enemy assassin and other brigand just ganged up on the leader, backstabbed him 5 times and *poof*.

The AI WILL take advantage of your mistakes.

[warty goblin]

Been playing the tutorial. Doesn't seem buggy at all for me, and it runs very smoothly so far.

Damn computer is actually not stupid.. I got a game over in my 2nd battle after I accidently exposed my Rogue Sovereign to finish off a bunch of brigands. The enemy assassin and other brigand just ganged up on the leader, backstabbed him 5 times and *poof*.

The AI WILL take advantage of your mistakes.

I had exactly the same thing happen to me. Gotta love an AI that plays for keeps.

Also of note, fairies can be employed as surprisingly potent special forces. The least manly special forces ever.

[Cikomyr]

I had exactly the same thing happen to me. Gotta love an AI that plays for keeps.

Also of note, fairies can be employed as surprisingly potent special forces. The least manly special forces ever.

Hey. I just thought up that Unicorns can be terrifying as an siege-assault force. They can just teleport behind enemy fortification and force them all to flank. Either they engage and then you can rush their archers with your outside-walls troops, or they still focus on your outsider troops and you can charge their archers.

[Tengu_temp]

Aw yes, I've been waiting for this game! Hope it keeps the great atmosphere of AoW 1 and 2, in addition to all the improvements.

[warty goblin]

Hey. I just thought up that Unicorns can be terrifying as an siege-assault force. They can just teleport behind enemy fortification and force them all to flank. Either they engage and then you can rush their archers with your outside-walls troops, or they still focus on your outsider troops and you can charge their archers.
It's an Age of Wonders game. Everything is terrifyingly lethal. The unicorns will stab you in the back. The fairies will electrocute and incinerate your ass at the same time. Really, I almost felt sorry for the poor orcs. Their big tough dudes with swords just didn't have a chance.


Aw yes, I've been waiting for this game! Hope it keeps the great atmosphere of AoW 1 and 2, in addition to all the improvements.
I think it does a good job of keeping the Age of Wonders atmosphere of surprisingly cheerful constant fantasy murder alive and well. After my first battle I felt bad because I lost a unit, and then I remembered it's Age of Wonders. The ground's supposed to be three feet thick in corpses after any decent fight.

Also of note, the campaign shows signs of being surprisingly decent. Instead of good vs. evil it's corrupt industrialism vs. the parochial forces it displaces and supplants.

[Cikomyr]

It's an Age of Wonders game. Everything is terrifyingly lethal. The unicorns will stab you in the back. The fairies will electrocute and incinerate your ass at the same time. Really, I almost felt sorry for the poor orcs. Their big tough dudes with swords just didn't have a chance.


What?! for what I've seen, Orcs are very tough and hit hard as nails...

I am wondering what Race/Class I'll start off as. thinking maybe Dwarf Warlord...

[Martok]

It was stupid of me, but I actually pre-ordered this baby on GOG last week -- and the Deluxe Edition, no less. :smallredface: Just got home from visiting family this weekend, so am downloading now. Can't wait!

[warty goblin]

What?! for what I've seen, Orcs are very tough and hit hard as nails...

I am wondering what Race/Class I'll start off as. thinking maybe Dwarf Warlord...

Oh they hit hard. If they survive long enough to get close.

[Morty]

Orcish units have good hit points, but they have lower Resistance than average and their ranged capabilities aren't that great. So from what I've seen (having extensively watched various Let's Plays and gathered information) non-physical ranged attacks might be the best way to take them out. Like the Goblin Swarm Darters, because they're just the best thing ever.

Myself, I've gone a bit into the first mission of the Elven Court campaign, to learn the ropes - although I'll probably end up playing the Commonwealth campaign more. I've also fooled around a bit with scenarios, but there's somewhat disappointingly few of them. Hopefully the much-advertised random map generator will pick up the slack.

[warty goblin]

I've played around a bit with the random map generator, it seems to produce quite good maps. By default neutral units are pretty aggressive too, so you definitely have to leave a garrison in your cities.

[ChaosArchon]

Alright so I've played a bit and its fairly fun but I have a question for you AoW vets, is it normal to lose troops in most battles? Like I'm a human/theocrat and my cherubs seem to either never last a battle or finish dangerously low. Am I just playing crappily or is this average? This is my 1st AoW game but I'm a long time player of Warlock:MoA (played like +100 hours if I'm not mistaken) and Civ, played a bit of HoMM in my youth but hated the newest one, it penalized you for taking your time and building up your forces it seems.

[warty goblin]

Alright so I've played a bit and its fairly fun but I have a question for you AoW vets, is it normal to lose troops in most battles? Like I'm a human/theocrat and my cherubs seem to either never last a battle or finish dangerously low. Am I just playing crappily or is this average? This is my 1st AoW game but I'm a long time player of Warlock:MoA (played like +100 hours if I'm not mistaken) and Civ, played a bit of HoMM in my youth but hated the newest one, it penalized you for taking your time and building up your forces it seems.

I've not sunk enough time into AoW III yet to be sure, but the combat in the AoW games has always been very lethal as these sorts of games go. AoW III seems to following the same path from what I played last night, although it's perhaps a touch less brutal than the original Age of Wonders. In that game it was pretty commonplace for even basic archers to kill full health basic infantry in one attack, and heroes remained sickeningly vulnerable until quite late game.

Even so, I get the distinct impression that losing units in battle in AoW III is going to be pretty commonplace, particularly for the low level troops. And the flanking and retaliation rules make even high level units vulnerable to getting mobbed.

[Magentawolf]

I had exactly the same thing happen to me. Gotta love an AI that plays for keeps.



Yep. Chalk another dead rogue leader up to that second battle in the campaign...

As someone who cherishes their troops, getting used to how deadly the combat here is going to take a while. I'm not immediately a fan of the 'up-to-three-attacks' that most units seem to have.

[Driderman]

Yep. Chalk another dead rogue leader up to that second battle in the campaign...

As someone who cherishes their troops, getting used to how deadly the combat here is going to take a while. I'm not immediately a fan of the 'up-to-three-attacks' that most units seem to have.

The idea is great but I don't feel that the tactical battle system is really set up to utilize it properly. And possibly, 3 attacks is too much, but I really like the concept of choosing between mobility and attack power.

[warty goblin]

Yep. Chalk another dead rogue leader up to that second battle in the campaign...

As someone who cherishes their troops, getting used to how deadly the combat here is going to take a while. I'm not immediately a fan of the 'up-to-three-attacks' that most units seem to have.
Personally this has always been one aspect of the series that I've loved. Age of Wonders battles feel like battles, you need to have some understanding of acceptable losses at both the tactical and strategic levels. Something like Warlock makes it entirely reasonable to win a pan-continental war without losses, and indeed end with a demonstrably stronger army than you began with.


The idea is great but I don't feel that the tactical battle system is really set up to utilize it properly. And possibly, 3 attacks is too much, but I really like the concept of choosing between mobility and attack power.
I don't think one generally wants to go for the full three attacks. It's better to force a unit to waste actions by rotating under ranged or flanking attacks. This, I think, is why so many of the basic infantry have a really crappy ranged attack; to allow for enemy manipulation before another unit closes for the kill.

[Cikomyr]

The key is to figure out ganging up effectively. Focus your attention on the right group of enemies, minimize retatiations and maximize yours.

It's easier to say than to do, obviously. A cavalry charge will leave your troops excruciatingly vulnerable. The ennemies will just gang up on you.


I am going to embark on my first real genuine siege. Wonder how the siege weapons function.


Also, I had a 1 Unicorn vs. 3 Warg hordes fight. They attacked me, so I couldn't run away. I somehow managed to manoeuver into the "retreat" hexes so that the wargs would step into them to attack me; and thus exit the battle.

I managed to cut a 1 on 3 into 3x 1on1. Total abuse of the rule system for me.

[Morty]

I just lost my Goblin Rogue leader and a beetle rider to faeries. Getting overconfident is lethal in this game.

[warty goblin]

I just lost my Goblin Rogue leader and a beetle rider to faeries. Getting overconfident is lethal in this game.

Don't screw with fairies. They've got like a zillion damage channels, and will mess up your face no questions asked.

So here's why I'm loving Age of Wonders III in one example. Last night I found myself in a spot of trouble in a random game, owing to some overconfidence on my part bred by too many strategy games where the AI can't find its ass with both hands and a quest map. Bottom line the neighboring human sorcerer had launched an attack with two substantially powerful stacks. I intercepted with the only available units - my human sorcerer and her personal bodyguard. We were outnumbered, and the fighting was dead even. After losing half my army I beat a quick retreat, leaving the enemy survivors weakened enough I could destroy them next turn with reinforcements coming up from my capital.

I had the enemy put me in a compromised situation, but was able to fight a tactical loss for the sake of a strategic victory. I love it when strategy games allow me to do that, put the meaning of battle into a wider context.


Also being able to summon eldritch horrors right into a stack anywhere in the world is totally pimp.

[Cikomyr]

I have to say. The game really feels polished. It's no perfect, mind you, but it runs along real smooth.

Plus, fantasy fun-FTW. The class features of your heroes really make a difference of gamestyles. can't wait to try mah Dwarven Warlord.

[Tengu_temp]

Alright so I've played a bit and its fairly fun but I have a question for you AoW vets, is it normal to lose troops in most battles? Like I'm a human/theocrat and my cherubs seem to either never last a battle or finish dangerously low. Am I just playing crappily or is this average? This is my 1st AoW game but I'm a long time player of Warlock:MoA (played like +100 hours if I'm not mistaken) and Civ, played a bit of HoMM in my youth but hated the newest one, it penalized you for taking your time and building up your forces it seems.

Units were very squishy in Age of Wonders 1, even high-level ones.

In Age of Wonders 2, it depended on your race and playstyle. Most races have tier 3 units with strong defense and health (and some even have tier 2 units that fit the bill), and if you focus on using those as a wall while your weaker units skirmish or attack from afar, the general survivability of your army went up a lot. Also, AoW2 units are tougher than AoW1 ones on average.

Overall, I'd say: when fighting an opponent who's supposed to be a threat, prepare to lose units. If you lose them against random weak neutral forces, you're probably doing something wrong. Do note that in Age of Wonders, not every random neutral force is automatically a weak one.

[Knaight]

Personally this has always been one aspect of the series that I've loved. Age of Wonders battles feel like battles, you need to have some understanding of acceptable losses at both the tactical and strategic levels. Something like Warlock makes it entirely reasonable to win a pan-continental war without losses, and indeed end with a demonstrably stronger army than you began with.

AoW seems pretty common in this regard. For instance, Dominions 3 is the same way - even against independents (AKA 1 province no castle non-expansionistic AI enemies that get cut down by every actual nation) you will lose units playing as just about every faction, and you'll sometimes lose entire armies to the nasty surprises - the scout comes back reporting some light infantry, you show up to the fight, suddenly knights everywhere. Actual AI enemies will murder your raiding forces and light armies, and actual player enemies will murder your big armies, your super combatants, the health of your provinces (summoning plague starters is so much fun), and quite possibly your entire faction. With this backdrop, AoW just doesn't seem that exceptional - Warlock seems like the odd one here.

[Driderman]

So apparently, having First Strike means having an additional attack when retaliating. That, or I haven't quite grasped the retaliate mechanic yet. Poor Draconian Warlord...

[warty goblin]

AoW seems pretty common in this regard. For instance, Dominions 3 is the same way - even against independents (AKA 1 province no castle non-expansionistic AI enemies that get cut down by every actual nation) you will lose units playing as just about every faction, and you'll sometimes lose entire armies to the nasty surprises - the scout comes back reporting some light infantry, you show up to the fight, suddenly knights everywhere. Actual AI enemies will murder your raiding forces and light armies, and actual player enemies will murder your big armies, your super combatants, the health of your provinces (summoning plague starters is so much fun), and quite possibly your entire faction. With this backdrop, AoW just doesn't seem that exceptional - Warlock seems like the odd one here.

Over the space of fairly light fantasy TBSs AoW is a bit odd in this regard. Not unique certainly, but certainly on the loss-heavy side of the distribution. The Disciples series for instance makes losing units very hard, while a well-designed army in one of the Elemental games is essentially an unstoppable murder machine - about the only thing that provides even noticeable opposition for something like human heavy cavalry with spears is a dragon, or a necromancer if you forget to bring a Mage hero with Counterspell. And that's without getting into cheese like having your own dragon(s), at which point opposition completely ceases to exist. It's not hard in that game to have a single army that can literally crush entire empires without even needing to catch its breath. I once achieved this state with three units*. Warlock is a bit less extreme perhaps, since it at least requires some degree of combined arms, but Black Minotaurs with some upgrades and ranged/healer support (or Wolves of Helia if you want extreme brutality) are extremely difficult to kill. The Heroes of Might and Magic series does tend towards having tactical battles with losses, but the weird way it does units combined with the highly static nature of most maps makes it pretty easy to minimize casualties.


Perhaps more unique with Age of Wonders III is that the AI at both the tactical and strategic levels appears to be fairly competent. I actually had a dwarf rogue effectively neutralize one of my high-power stacks last night. I was forced to withdraw the survivors all the way back to my capital and muster new forces. Annoyingly this will postpone my complete terraforming of my area of world.


*High level melee leader and a pair of dragons to be precise.

[Knaight]

Over the space of fairly light fantasy TBSs AoW is a bit odd in this regard. Not unique certainly, but certainly on the loss-heavy side of the distribution. The Disciples series for instance makes losing units very hard, while a well-designed army in one of the Elemental games is essentially an unstoppable murder machine - about the only thing that provides even noticeable opposition for something like human heavy cavalry with spears is a dragon, or a necromancer if you forget to bring a Mage hero with Counterspell.

Sure, but take something like Battle for Wesnoth - screens of disposable units recruited entirely to hold off attacking forces long enough for your real army to get something done are downright common. If the screen fails, bye bye most of your real army, along with the entire screen. If the screen succeeds, bye bye basically everyone in the screen, and still a portion of your real army. Plus, even the highest level units can be taken out with swarms, provided that you don't swarm in the stupidest fashion possible (for instance, the one saving grace of ghosts and wraiths is that they heal with successful melee hits, which makes trying to fight them with low defense melee units really stupid, and makes it such that they can basically handle an infinite steam of certain units. On the other hand, one archer with fire arrows can ruin their day). If you use the right unit, you might not even have to swarm - one mace using heavy infantry is a serious problem for even the toughest skeleton archer, one level 1 berserker (technically called an ulfserker) at full health can reliably end just about any level 4 mage in the game, regardless of terrain. Then there are games like Warcraft, though that's an RTS.

AoW just seems pretty central to me. Disciples and Elementals are way over on the low loss side, hanging out with Fire Emblem, but there's plenty that's at least as brutal as AoW, if not substantially more so. Granted, this might just be a side effect of me using the Dominions series as my baseline.

[Tengu_temp]

I have this game! Decided to start the campaign - Commonwealth, because hooray for progress and equality, and elves can go hug a tree. Played a little, those are my impressions.

It feels a lot like all Age of Wonders. Combat is very tactical and the game offers you a wide variety of options. There seems to be a huge number of various units, which gets my approval.

What I don't like? Only 6 races. I know that there are also 6 classes and each race has many more units on average, but come on, Age of Wonders 2 had twelve of them, 15 with the expansion! Where are the frostlings, Tigrans, undead? Also, I feel ambivalent about the way attack and defense work now. In old AoW games, attack and defense were about your chance to hit, and there was a damage stat. Here, attacks always hit, attack increases the damage you cause and defense lowers it. As someone who liked his high-defense dodge tanks, I have to say: hmm.

[Morty]

Attacks always hitting is something I, on the other hand, like. It frustrated me in the previous games when two units could exchange several attacks without actually hitting once. The way AoW 3 works feels more... consistent, so to speak.

[Cespenar]

After Battle for Wesnoth, I guess always hitting attacks might be a good thing indeed.

[HammeredWharf]

I was highly suspicious of this game after the charming, but otherwise so-so Overlord series. It looks like my doubts were misplaced and this is a really good sequel.


Attacks always hitting is something I, on the other hand, like. It frustrated me in the previous games when two units could exchange several attacks without actually hitting once. The way AoW 3 works feels more... consistent, so to speak.

Ablities not based on chance allow for more tactical combat. When playing games like XCOM: EU and AoW2 normally, you often lose units because of the RNG going wild. It's very rare in AoW3. If you lose a unit, it's your fault. I like that.

[Driderman]

Encountered Eldritch Horror. Aptly named as it proceeded to wipe the floor with my level 10 Draconian warlord and his retinue of Elite Monster Hunters, Raptors and an Elder :smalleek:

[Cikomyr]

I was highly suspicious of this game after the charming, but otherwise so-so Overlord series. It looks like my doubts were misplaced and this is a really good sequel.



Ablities not based on chance allow for more tactical combat. When playing games like XCOM: EU and AoW2 normally, you often lose units because of the RNG going wild. It's very rare in AoW3. If you lose a unit, it's your fault. I like that.

I am sure everybody noticed just how effective the Elven Storm Sister + Rogue Leader is. And also how dependent on the RNG is it.

Storm sister can stun, which means auto-flank for every unit that attacks. Rogue Leader can give all of their unit special backstab bonuses.

[Tengu_temp]

I realized what the new battle system reminds me of: it's Civ 5. Well, Civ 5 + previous Age of Wonders.

Also, my reaction when I heard the new version of Love and Death:
http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/1118013/m-bison-yes-yes-o.gif

[Cikomyr]

This is the moment that I really have to question the creator's choice to name the engineery-Leader the "Juggernaut".

Because I wanted to describe my current Dwarven Warrior Leader, and seeing his armor and damage rating, the only word that comes to mind is "Juggernaut"

[Morty]

Being evil is so refreshingly straight-forward in this game. No diplomacy, quests or paying people to join you. Just march in and kill everyone who feels like opposing. The downside is that you might lose troops, of course.

[Cikomyr]

Being evil is so refreshingly straight-forward in this game. No diplomacy, quests or paying people to join you. Just march in and kill everyone who feels like opposing. The downside is that you might lose troops, of course.

Wrong mindset.

You should say:

"The downside is that you might lose disposable minions, off course"

[Driderman]

Wrong mindset.

You should say:

"The downside is that you might lose disposable minions, off course"

"Get those minions back on course this instant!"

:smallbiggrin:

[Cikomyr]

I just started forging magical items in mah game. I play dwarven, and I found a mountain-sourrounded location with 2x +30 Hammer dungeons right next. It's a production powerhouse, and it's currently cranking out magic items.

hmm.. how about a Tireless Shield (no lost AP for attacks of opportunities or retaliation). With a First Strike Ring..

[Knaight]

Ablities not based on chance allow for more tactical combat. When playing games like XCOM: EU and AoW2 normally, you often lose units because of the RNG going wild. It's very rare in AoW3. If you lose a unit, it's your fault. I like that.

The chance doesn't take the tactics out - it just changes how planning works, generally involving planning fewer moves ahead and having way more branching going on in the plans - so instead of having a plan for Move 18 when you're at Move 12, you have twelve plans for Move 16.

[warty goblin]

The chance doesn't take the tactics out - it just changes how planning works, generally involving planning fewer moves ahead and having way more branching going on in the plans - so instead of having a plan for Move 18 when you're at Move 12, you have twelve plans for Move 16.

I haven't actually looked at the numbers, but I'm not entirely convinced the average survivability or lethality of units in AoW 3 has changed substantially from before. The removal of miss chances however does make combat vastly less stochastic, which shifts the gameplay away from accounting for unknown outcomes and more towards optimization over a nearly fixed space. Which is probably what you said, I just need to translate things into Gradstudentese. I used to a person, now I just pretend to be one over weekends.

[Knaight]

I haven't actually looked at the numbers, but I'm not entirely convinced the average survivability or lethality of units in AoW 3 has changed substantially from before. The removal of miss chances however does make combat vastly less stochastic, which shifts the gameplay away from accounting for unknown outcomes and more towards optimization over a nearly fixed space. Which is probably what you said, I just need to translate things into Gradstudentese. I used to a person, now I just pretend to be one over weekends.

If pseudo-academicese varieties are wanted, they can be presented.
Let us define the current situation as turn N. Set Ndet corresponds to all plans contained within turn N, with deterministic mechanics. Set Nrand corresponds to all plans contained within turn N, with nondeterministic mechanics. Let Kt be the number of elements in sets of plans at a future turn, where each plan is one element, where t is the number of turns elapsed, such that K0 is the number of elements in N. For all sets [Kt t<tmaxrand, t is a positive real integer] Ktrand/Ktdet>K(t-1)rand/K(t-1)det. However, tmaxrand<tmaxdet.

Also, I suddenly find myself missing the letters used in set notation. I haven't done nearly enough math to justify this, and as such am just going to blame your rephrasing.

[Tengu_temp]

Unsurprisingly, high-tier ranged units rock in this game. I especially like flame tanks.

[Cikomyr]

Unsurprisingly, high-tier ranged units rock in this game. I especially like flame tanks.

Surprise surprise? :P

[Nadevoc]

Picked this game up today since it seemed that half the time I checked the General Gaming thread, one of you guys was talking about how good Age of Wonders is. So far, it's pretty fun. My one issue so far is that I'm somehow used to using right click to deselect a unit and left click to order movement, abilities, etc - I think due to HoMM? Regardless, a couple times now it's led to me accidentally ordering a unit to go running off somewhere instead of deselecting them - one time with disastrous consequences as he was promptly murdered by opportunity attacks.

[Morty]

Apparently, the late-game being dominated by spamming Tier IV units is a problem. I've yet to experience it myself.

[DemonicAngel]

How can you guys beat the archdruid campign scenario? the one with the golden wyvern? I can't for the life of me figure it out. I immediately establish two cities, but as soon as I go the the goblin rogue territory I'm pretty much a goner.
she has too many armies and the fact that she's in alliance with the orc means she's also shielded from behind.
I even tried rushing the golden dragon just to see if it helps (it doesn't)

[HammeredWharf]

The chance doesn't take the tactics out - it just changes how planning works, generally involving planning fewer moves ahead and having way more branching going on in the plans - so instead of having a plan for Move 18 when you're at Move 12, you have twelve plans for Move 16.

The chance doesn't take the tactics out, but it can make you lose even when you have more troops than your opponent and are using optimal tactics. True games of skill take chance out of the equation. Of course, that doesn't necessarily make them more fun.

[Tengu_temp]

Apparently, the late-game being dominated by spamming Tier IV units is a problem. I've yet to experience it myself.

Do you mean knights/big beetles/etc, or is there another tier above that? How do you reach it then?

[Morty]

No, the special racial units are Tier III. Tier IV units are accessible from classes or neutral dwellings. They're things like the warlords' manticore riders, dreadnoughts' juggernauts or dragons and giants.

[warty goblin]

No, the special racial units are Tier III. Tier IV units are accessible from classes or neutral dwellings. They're things like the warlords' manticore riders, dreadnoughts' juggernauts or dragons and giants.

Mind, Tier III units can still be plenty brutal. Elf Gryphon riders are fairly crazy, because let's face it, if you aren't flanking all day every day, it's time to reevaluate your life.

Also, man do goblin units suck. It's kinda hilarious really. OK, swarm darters are actually pretty good, although they are pretty much helpless against the undead. But goblin front line units are pretty much just roadkill.

[Morty]

The goblins' shtick is, as usual, that they're dirt cheap. I wouldn't go so far as to call their units useless, though, from what I've seen so far. I really love the darters' ignoring of range and line of sight penalties.

[Nadevoc]

My first game was as goblins. Darters were awesome. Warg Riders were pretty good at cleaning up after them. Untouchables were really disappointing, though.

[Winters Heart]

How can you guys beat the archdruid campign scenario? the one with the golden wyvern? I can't for the life of me figure it out. I immediately establish two cities, but as soon as I go the the goblin rogue territory I'm pretty much a goner.
she has too many armies and the fact that she's in alliance with the orc means she's also shielded from behind.
I even tried rushing the golden dragon just to see if it helps (it doesn't)

I'm currently in that, if you persevere through, you'll ifnd at times the Orc leader likes to leave cities empty to deal with threat you present on other fronts - as a telepad underground takes you straight to the 2 high elven towns on the map which instantly become you and allow for some nice strategic maneuvering of your armies.

There's also a commonwealth bugger you have to get rid of, and he emptied a city for me two, which I waltzed into with the Draconian leader guy, a horned god, black serpent, and elite shaman and wargs. A couple turns later his stacks came back, about 13 units including flame tank and cannon, with some engineers, priests, swords and a hero unit - I thought I was a goner.

Turns out the Horned God, and that black seprent summon thing too are amazing for archdruid class! Plus I used a spell that halves any and every ground based units' speed (including your own, and can't be dispelled either I found out) and a few clutch heals and I made it out with all my units. The Horned God's ranged lightning stun thing I got to cast a few times before the enemy were too far in range thanks to the slow, and it was wonderful. Even my elite wargs took down a tier 2 unit follow by a tier 1, while Reskar fought the cannon and kited some melee units, with him being the only unit on the battlefield who could move freely on his gold wyvern.

(Initially I didn't "trespass" in the goblin land tiill I thought I could withstand it, south in the deserty area before the first goblin city there a cave entrance that shows a nice, potentially empty stone fortress with the tele-pad on the other side of it to find the high elf domain)

I've also had an amusing fight where a hero unit and assassin attacked one of my cities only garrisoned by two battering rams. The screen told me very likely defeat, manual combat was an easy victory as rams are brilliant against ranged from the hero while the assassins blundered in and died.

Also one unit of unicorn riders vs 3 civic guard, used so many spell points on healing which was double cost due to not having reskar in battle. The last turn an attack and fireball left my guys on 1hp, with which they dispatched the last unit - teleport to flanking earlier in the battle really helped ^.^

[Tengu_temp]

Goblin big beetles are pretty good. Poison damage and resistance to it are pretty valuable overall.

Also, I cast Chaos Rift during a battle once. Hoo boy. Some of the high-level spells in this game are crazy.

[warty goblin]

So in my latest game I happened across a giant settlement, which happily joined my fledging goblin nation after I'd offed a coupla dragons for them. Now I'm churning out giants, which make mincemeat out of everything.

[Morty]

It's the traditional, time-sanctioned goblin way of problem-solving - get something bigger to squash it for you.

[warty goblin]

My first game was as goblins. Darters were awesome. Warg Riders were pretty good at cleaning up after them. Untouchables were really disappointing, though.
So due to an error on my part, the AI snuck in and stormed my capital city. By the time I was able to recall enough of a force to have a shot at retaking it, they had amassed three full stacks, which were loaded to the gills with Untouchables. In the defensive siege context, they actually proved to be fairly effective, since they have a not-horrible ranged attack, and can do OK in melee as well. Fortunately the AI posted them all on the center, which allowed my left flank to punch through the gate, kill the kobolds - which still suck - manning the walls, and roll up the flank as my goblin swarm darters and stone giant methodically picked the untouchables off. Still an astoundingly bloody battle. I went in with eighteen units, of which seven survived. The enemy lost three full stacks, including two heroes and their leader. This victory seems to have stabilized that front for the time being.

[Morty]

The Untouchables are surprisingly nasty against things that aren't immune or resistant to blight damage. Especially if the noxious vulnerability manages to stick, since it softens the target up for other non-physical attacks. Mind you, blight resistance and outright immunity are both rather common. The racial irregular units in generals are easy to underestimate, but will sting you if you do.

[Nadevoc]

I think my problem with Untouchables is that they're competing for the same space as the dart swarmers. The swarmers get three ranged attacks instead of just one, plus they don't have to worry about line of sight. Personally I prefer the split damage, since it tends to mean they'll be somewhat effective against anything I need them shooting at. The one thing the Untouchables bring is the vulnerability, but seems to have a very low chance of actually taking, so it's not something I feel I can count as part of their standard power - just a nice perk that crops up very occasionally.

[Morty]

Observation #1: Dwarven Firstborn are scary.

Observation #2: Buffed Dwarven Firstborn are terrifying meat blenders.

[warty goblin]

Similarly, goblin swarm darters are murderous little bastards. Elven Longbowmen with the Seeker enchantment are probably a violation of some sort of fantasy Geneva Convention

[Cespenar]

I'm currently considering scrapping melee units altogether and just use battering rams instead.

[Nadevoc]

Similarly, goblin swarm darters are murderous little bastards.

My first game was as goblins, with my armies consisting of mostly swarm darters. It really threw me off when I was then trying the other races (particularly orcs, who have a pretty opposite playstyle), because it's a very different playstyle.



I'm currently considering scrapping melee units altogether and just use battering rams instead.

Are battering rams good outside of breaking through walls? I hadn't even looked at them because I assumed that was pretty much all they were good for

[Morty]

I keep forgetting to bring siege weapons when assaulting cities. It's a problem now that the AI isn't so eager to leave the walls.

[Cespenar]

Are battering rams good outside of breaking through walls? I hadn't even looked at them because I assumed that was pretty much all they were good for

With 75 hp and 16 attack, they almost feel tier 3-ish. Admittedly they can't use iterative attacks, but for some reason, they don't get retaliated. Bug or something?

But yeah, they're pretty good.

[lord_khaine]

I have discovered high level sorceress are a walking genocide. In the elven court campaign my orc sorceress just crushed the last 2 fights against the dwarf dreadnought and his human theocrat body with a Chaos Rift.

It seemed like none could dispel it, and so i won both fights for their throne cities without loss.

[Drasius]

Yeah, once you've got chaos rift, it's pretty much all over against the AI. Multiple times I've left a single melee troop behind in a city and successfully defeated multiple AI stacks at once just by casting double gravity and chaos rift. Hell, a single cavalry unit or a flyer can evade long enough in the open to let the monsters start coming in and acting as wild goose chases for the poor AI.

I feel the sorceror is a bit lacking overall though, feels more like a conjuror with a bit of blaster support (which is how I like my wizards normally), but I feel there is a distinct lack of direct damage available in meaningful numbers to actually make him feel powerful (unless you cast hellfire with your army being immune or close enough to it, then it feels a bit overpowered).

[Morty]

Whereas I'm getting the impression that the Rogue isn't a very good class, or at least isn't very easy to play. Its units feel situational and/or finicky to use.

[Cespenar]

Every battle with rams in it just enforces my existing belief. Just won one with 3 rams against a Bone Dragon and 2 crows. It's getting quite silly.

[Morty]

Having played the rogue a bit more, I can say that Assassins do hit hard. With some help from other units to provide flanking, two of them tore apart a Stone Giant in a single round. A Rogue really benefits from the Explorer specialization, which can research a skill to give more movement points to Irregular units. Apart from those guys, Scoundrels aren't a bad unit either - they're cheap, have decent damage, can cripple, heal fast and can blow up walls and machines. Goblins additionally benefit from having a skirmisher unit that's not rendered useless by the ever-present blight resistance or immunity. Bards seem to be a waste of time and money. I just researched Succubi, so I'll see if they're worth anything.

[Cespenar]

I just researched Succubi, so I'll see if they're worth anything.

Charm is good, but as with many similar abilities, you should have a B-plan to protect your exposed unit if the ability fails.

[Knaight]

Charm is good, but as with many similar abilities, you should have a B-plan to protect your exposed unit if the ability fails.

Succubi actually have Seduce, which is unfortunate. Charm is the vastly superior ability, though Seduce is still pretty solid (I've hired Nymphs and considered it a good move, and that's despite the fairies in general having a seriously nasty roster).

On a completely unrelated note, some of the mechanics in this game just seem weird when you think about it. Take embarkment - when an actual army with humanoids in it embarks, it makes sense. When you've got one boar scouting who inexplicably hops on a boat, it suddenly seems a little more odd.


Similarly, goblin swarm darters are murderous little bastards. Elven Longbowmen with the Seeker enchantment are probably a violation of some sort of fantasy Geneva Convention
Between the two, the swarm darters are probably nastier. There's something about being able to fire up castle walls without taking any damage penalty that's just glorious.

[MeatShield#236]

Succubi also have Throw Curse, which has a pretty long range, good for softening up a big target. They're also flying, which is a big deal when setting up flanks.

On paper Rogues appear to have some issues dealing damage. In a straight up brawl Assassins and Scoundrels just don't deal as much damage as other class specific units. That is, until you realize that most of your units have backstab and your Tier IV is basically a Special Warrior that's three times as hard to kill AND has backstab. The Rogue also gets an indirect gold income bonus from Lockdown (the spell that raises city happiness. City Happiness raises gold income in case you didn't know.)

But the biggest advantage the Rogue has is Mass Battlefield Panic. A spell that panics all enemies that fail the save for two turns AND lowers the movement of the ones that don't? A single casting can get your assassins and Shadow Walkers on the walls easy, and then it's just a simple matter of hunting down the rest of their units.