Good Vampires...

[atemu1234]

My group fights vampires strongly influenced by Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel. Therein, we want to encounter at least a couple "vampires with souls". The plan is to make it that a casting of Sanctify the Wicked coupled with a willing subject (or maybe just as a curse) that will give them back their souls. The question being, would that fit as a possible means of keeping it flavorful and fitting in game mechanics?

[holywhippet]

It kind of does work given game mechanics. The helm of opposite alignment can change a victim's alignment and I see no reason it won't work on a vampire as it is a curse and not a mind affecting spell. Not sure about the soul part though as I'm not sure if vampires lack a soul or not. Liches, for example, are also intelligent undead and they keep their soul.

You could maybe have the affected vampires be deathless rather than undead although that changes what they are vulnerable to I believe.

[atemu1234]

My concept is trying to keep them undead, and it allows it to be cast as a curse or a blessing, depending on the vampire's beliefs at the time. Though what would happen to an evil vampire to make it WANT to be good is beyond me.

[Sayt]

That would seem to work pretty well, as might atonement on willing undead.

Futhermore, I believe it's either BoVD or Libris Mortis has rules for undead creatures needing to feed, as does Paizo's Blood of the Night.

[delenn]

Neither Angel nor Spike sought their souls willingly (well, Spike did, but only after the chip. I'm sure there's a magical equivalent), but I think they both give good ideas to run with - one vampire is cursed/blessed with the return of its soul and conscience. Another is prevented from inflicting harm on living (or maybe just good-aligned) creatures, until it kind of just sticks.

And then there's Harmony. You could house-rule that cheesy unicorn figurines make you less evil.

[MadGreenSon]

Nothing in the straight rules indicates that becoming one of the more sapient, free-willed undead takes your soul away, just that it seriously changes your priorities to: EVIL!

However, there are things that could make being a evil creature of the night suck. (pardon the pun).

What if being a vampire isn't always so awesome? What if they want to go enjoy simple mortal pleasures like hanging out in a tavern and pinching the barmaids and their evilness just shows through too much?

Or maybe their evil ways cause them to lose something they really do value. Even demons can love, maybe a vamp has a place/person/thing that they care about, evil or not and then their own evil action get it destroyed or something.

That'd make you contemplate whether or not your worldview/way of life was the right way to go I think.

[Dalebert]

Though what would happen to an evil vampire to make it WANT to be good is beyond me.

Falling in love with a blonde high school student?

[Keneth]

Even if you turn them good, their nature would in most cases inevitably push them back towards evil.

I dislike the idea of good vampires on a fundamental level. Neutral maybe, but good just has that cheesy "redeemed evil" smell that makes me want to vomit.

As for your question, yes, your idea would fit quite well with Buffyverse's flawed concept that goodness and conscience are somehow bound to the soul.

[Silva Stormrage]

Even if you turn them good, their nature would in most cases inevitably push them back towards evil.

I dislike the idea of good vampires on a fundamental level. Neutral maybe, but good just has that cheesy "redeemed evil" smell that makes me want to vomit.

As for your question, yes, your idea would fit quite well with Buffyverse's flawed concept that goodness and conscience are somehow bound to the soul.

But what about their nature makes them inevitably push back towards evil? The blood sucking? What if they do something like Roy in OOTS. Or pay someone for donating blood.

The undead aspect can't be it since negative energy isn't automatically evil and there are good aligned undead.

What aspect of vampires automatically makes them so evil that they are worse than demons and devils which can be redeemed or turned good.

[Keneth]

But what about their nature makes them inevitably push back towards evil? The blood sucking? What if they do something like Roy in OOTS. Or pay someone for donating blood.

They have cold, dead bodies, the power to indulge most of their urges, and a thirst that can never quite be satiated. They might be able to ignore all that if they're isolated, but otherwise they're just addicts surrounded by their drug of choice. You don't have to be a murderer to be evil. My vampire character drinks blood from a self-replenishing cup, and she's still evil personified. Just civilized.


What aspect of vampires automatically makes them so evil that they are worse than demons and devils which can be redeemed or turned good.

I don't think fiends should be capable of redemption either. They can turn good mechanically, but they are creatures that are literally made from the essence of evil itself. As far as I'm concerned, making a demon turn good or lawful would make them go *poof*. :smalltongue:

[atemu1234]

The template literally can't be applied to demons or devils or things with the evil subtype, unless I'm mistaken, so I'm inclined to agree. But back to the matter at hand, I'm not trying to make the mechanics fit the idea, I'm trying to find a baseline at which to make the mechanics to fit the idea.

[Keneth]

The template literally can't be applied to demons or devils or things with the evil subtype, unless I'm mistaken, so I'm inclined to agree.

We weren't talking about vampire demons, we were talking about good-aligned vampires in light of good-aligned fiends. And all devils and demons have the (evil) subtype, even good-aligned ones. :smallwink:

[Andezzar]

They have cold, dead bodies, the power to indulge most of their urges, and a thirst that can never quite be satiated. They might be able to ignore all that if they're isolated, but otherwise they're just addicts surrounded by their drug of choice. You don't have to be a murderer to be evil. My vampire character drinks blood from a self-replenishing cup, and she's still evil personified. Just civilized.Especially once the dietary requirement is satisfied through non-evil means (people voluntarily donating blood, magical blood creating item etc.), being evil simply is a choice of the character. So I don't see any problem with non-evil vampires. Contrary to Lycanthropes Vampires are not forced to mostly commit acts that conform with their alignment. Just like any other character that regularly performs good acts and rarely commits evil ones, a vampire will cease to have an evil alignment.


We weren't talking about vampire demons, we were talking about good-aligned vampires in light of good-aligned fiends. And all devils and demons have the (evil) subtype, even good-aligned ones. :smallwink:So what? evil alignment =/= [Evil] Subtype =/= Undead type (pings as evil on Detect Evil). All three exist independently.

[cakellene]

Give them the Deathless type.

[Keneth]

Especially once the dietary requirement is satisfied through non-evil means, being evil simply is a choice of the character.

That's a matter of opinion. Vampirism is a curse, and it should be treated as such as far as I'm concerned. While it's entirely possible to drink just enough blood to survive mechanically, the thirst isn't supposed to just go away after that. That, coupled will all the other issues of being undead and a vampire, should make it extremely hard to live any kind of good life. I'm not saying it's impossible, we've seen plenty of good-aligned vampire characters over the decades, but such characters are from the get go well on their way to being Mary Sues, and most of them end up being just that.

And yes, evil, (evil) subtype, and undeath all exist separately. That doesn't necessarily mean they're not interconnected. Fiends are literally made from cosmic evil. Most undead have their souls shredded or twisted by necromancy, making them inherently evil. You can bend those unwritten rules to fit whatever setting, but every time I see a good drow, succubus, vampire, etc. I lose all faith in its creator's artistic capabilities.

I'm just not buying it.

[Grayson01]

My concept is trying to keep them undead, and it allows it to be cast as a curse or a blessing, depending on the vampire's beliefs at the time. Though what would happen to an evil vampire to make it WANT to be good is beyond me.

He dosen't relizes what he/she is asking for, like when Spike got his Soul back at the end of Season 6 of Buffy. He excepted the reward (Game Mech. did not resist the spell) there by getting his soul back.

[One Step Two]

My two coppers on the matter rests largely on the idea that a vampire is still the same person they were when they were alive, but their base instincts have changed due to their new form.

Vampire needs are different to Humans, not just in their diet, but in the very way they live. While still a thrall they will more than likely do some truly despicable things, along with being introduced to a new kind of morality that comes with being an immortal blood-sucker. If or when they are eventually freed their perceptions of the world around them has changed dramatically, hence the conversion to evil.

This may cause them to lose their "soul" and getting it back is a hard fight, others may adapt to their new change. For example, in a past campaign, I had a antagonist that was Neutral Evil Vampire Druid.
He never actually wanted to hurt the party, or anyone for that matter, as long as they didn't malign the forest he chose to watch over. That said, if anything tried to mess with his domain, he would wreak serious vengeance upon them. Essentially he was the same as he was in life, but where he may have had regrets at injuring others to protect the natural world, he accepted it more freely as survival of the fittest.
The party had a few options open to them. They could have try and convince him to regain mortality through Raise dead or reincarnation, try and convince him on a philosophical level that harmony was better than being predatory (try to make him true neutral/good), ignore him entirely, or try to kill him.
It caused a divide in the party's opinion, because despite being a vampire, he very much still acted like a druid, they even found out that it mostly drank the blood from his own animal companion.

Vampirism was a curse of undeath and he made the certainly selfish choice to maintain immortality for the cost of feeding on the blood of the living, but he still kept his previous duties to the natural world, and accepted his new instincts, despite how abhorrent they may be to others.

[Andezzar]

That's a matter of opinion. Vampirism is a curse, and it should be treated as such as far as I'm concerned.The MM does not mention that the Create Spawn ability is a curse.


While it's entirely possible to drink just enough blood to survive mechanically, the thirst isn't supposed to just go away after that.I'm sure I'm missing something, but I cannot find the rule saying that they actually have to consume blood or that they have a craving for it.


That, coupled will all the other issues of being undead and a vampire, should make it extremely hard to live any kind of good life.Yes, being a vampire may be difficult but besides the initial shift to evil I see no reason why the a vampire would have to use evil solutions to those problems. For vampires and other undead actions still determine alignment not the other way around.


And yes, evil, (evil) subtype, and undeath all exist separately. That doesn't necessarily mean they're not interconnected.That they exist separately means that there is no mandatory connections.


Fiends are literally made from cosmic evil.Still non-evil fiends can exist (in statistically irrelevant numbers).


Most undead have their souls shredded or twisted by necromancy, making them inherently evil.Please provide a quote on that. AFAIK there are very few things in D&D that destroy a character's soul. Becoming undead is not among them.

[Shinken]

My concept is trying to keep them undead, and it allows it to be cast as a curse or a blessing, depending on the vampire's beliefs at the time. Though what would happen to an evil vampire to make it WANT to be good is beyond me.
Maybe he fell in love with a vampire slayer and now wants to be worthy of her.

[dantiesilva]

I just recently got done playing in an undead arc, where my LG Cleric/Church Inquisitor/Prestiage Paladin gave up his paladinhood and church inquisitor levels (falling from grace) because his old lover who had thought died in a war became a vampire. She was "LE" however that did not take her memories away from her. It did not change how she felt on things, sure she did feed from him, but he gave his blood willingly. And she helped the party multiple times against a cult of Nerul. It all comes down to who the person was when they changed, not what a mechanic says.

[Talya]

There's also the difference between evil, and EvilTM.

Since you're using Buffy as a reference, I'll allow Spike to sum it up.



We like to talk big, vampires do. "Ooooh I'm going to destroy the world." That's just tough-guy talk, strutting around with your friends over a pint of blood. The truth is, I like this world. You've got dog racing, Manchester United, and you've got people; billions of people walking around like Happy Meals with legs. It's all right here. But then someone comes along with a vision -- with a real passion for destruction. Angel could pull it off. Good-bye, Picadilly. Farewell, Leicester-bloody-Square.

Not all evil must be an antagonist.

[Zubrowka74]

How about Vampyres, or whatever they call the biological blood-sucking types ?

[atemu1234]

True, they don't have to be an antagonist, but they can't be sincerely good. As evil creatures, they cannot feel guilt for their actions or feel sorry except for themselves. They may still be helpful, until you get in their way.

[Andezzar]

True, they don't have to be an antagonist, but they can't be sincerely good. As evil creatures, they cannot feel guilt for their actions or feel sorry except for themselves.Where do you get that? Evil creatures are creatures that regularly commit evil acts. That does not necessarily come with an inability to feel guilt or to empathize.

[hamishspence]

There's also nothing inherently preventing alignment change, in the monster description. The MM points out that Always X alignment creatures can change alignment - even if such exceptions are "unique or very rare".

Older D&D - Planescape etc - had quite a bit in the way of nonevil fiends and undead.

[Andezzar]

Exactly. Humanoid is made a Vampire/spawn, his alignment is set to evil. From that point on his actions determine his alignment. Contrary to Lycanthropy or a helmet of opposite alignment the character is in no way encouraged to act according to the new evil alignment.
Being undead does not compel him to commit evil acts either.

[Grayson01]

There's also the difference between evil, and EvilTM.

Since you're using Buffy as a reference, I'll allow Spike to sum it up.



Not all evil must be an antagonist.

You are awesome! Did you have to look that up or did you know word for word?

[Raven777]

To understand why Vampires shouldn't be good is to understand why vampirism is a curse. You can drink, but you will still thirst. You can eat, but you will still hunger. You can share a loved one's warmth, but you will still be cold. The same urges that drive mortals to spread life now drive you to spread death. Do not forget that you reproduce by killing. To your negative energy sustained psyche, killing now feels better than sex. It doesn't mean you will assault passers by on the street, but the thought will linger in the back of your mind. The smile of an innkeeper's daughter, how prettier would it be with her soft lips painted in crimson? How would her dying gasp make the most beautiful music once you snap her slender neck? How might her presence by your side as one more among the forsaken make the innumerable nights less forlorn? It might disgust you, it might confuse you, but it will still haunt you.

It will not mean you will not be heroic. But it does mean you will be a strange kind of hero (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ByronicHero). And not a good one.

[Talya]

You are awesome! Did you have to look that up or did you know word for word?

I had most of it memorized, but I did end up googling "happy meals on legs" to get the quote perfect.

[ShurikVch]

From the Savage Species, Chapter 11: Becoming a Monster
ALIGNMENT CHANGE
If a character transforms to a kind of monster that always has a particular alignment, and the character did not originally have that alignment, the transforming character makes a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the goal monster’s Hit Dice + the goal monster’s Wis modifier) to avoid an involuntary alignment change.

[Talya]

every time I see a good drow, succubus, vampire, etc. I lose all faith in its creator's artistic capabilities.


I just want to point out, there's nothing inherently evil about Drow. Drow are raised in an evil society, but have no inborn inherent evil tendencies. They learn evil. As such, a drow raised in a non-evil society is no more likely to be evil than any other member of that society. Furthermore, just as non-evil societies can produce the occasional aberrant sadistic killer, so an evil society can produce the occasional aberrant compassionate altruist.

With the rest, I tend to agree. Barring specific extraordinary circumstances that change the supernaturally evil creature, they should remain evil.

[hamishspence]

I just want to point out, there's nothing inherently evil about Drow. Drow are raised in an evil society, but have no inborn inherent evil tendencies.

Depends who's writing. The "Drowconomicon" issue of Dragon Magazine, back in 3.0, took the approach that there was a strong inborn tendency.

The MM description of "Usually X alignment" does say that there's an inborn tendency, to a greater or lesser degree.

In PHB, in the section with the 3x3 alignment chart, it said that while both Kobolds and Beholders are Usually Lawful Evil, the inborn tendency is greater in Beholders than it is in Kobolds.

[iceman10058]

Vampires, Drow, Lycanthropes, ... the list goes on of evil creatures or races that players want to play as, but they cannot be evil. i have always looked at it as this, you can redeam yourself through actions and fight your nature and become something more. i have had players make an assassin, as in the prestige class, and work on shifting their alignment from evil to good. while the player in question didnt quite make it there, he kept getting stuck at CN, but the fact that he kept trying made for a better gaming experience. so start out as an evil vamp, but one that was forced to become a vampire and is trying to overcome his or her new problem.

[Andezzar]

I agree, except for lycanthropes. For some reason the writers thought they had to make it harder for werewolves:


A character with awareness of his condition retains his identity and does not lose control of his actions if he changes. However, each time he changes to his animal form, he must make a Will save (DC 15 + number of times he has been in animal form) or permanently assume the alignment of his animal form in all shapes.

Once a character becomes aware of his affliction, he can now voluntarily attempt to change to animal or hybrid form, using the appropriate Control Shape check DC. An attempt is a standard action and can be made each round. Any voluntary change to animal or hybrid form immediately and permanently changes the character’s alignment to that of the appropriate lycanthrope.Not even Fiends are that set in their ways. :smallconfused: