Will Laurin be okay/Thoughts about Laurin

[Socksy]

Fling your headcanons about her at me! I really want to know whether the playground thinks she's going to die or be left catatonic or (hopefully) live.

She's one of my favourite characters so other headcanons are welcome too! Tell me how she and character X are doing the do/secretly know each other/share tragic backstory! Tell me Hannah's parentage- Tarquin, Miron, Julio, Right-Eye? Is Laurin the biological mother?

Tl;dr: Cute speculations upon Laurin and those around her, go! >w<

[Cuthalion]

Your wording is quite amusing, as Laurin basically has a headcannon.

[Codex]

I like Laurin, but in some sort of weird twisted way I kinda hope she's dead. It would show how dangerous the Snarl is perfectly. I want too look at the Snarl and go "Holy :smalleek: that thing killed Laurin."

[Socksy]

Your wording is quite amusing, as Laurin basically has a headcannon.

It's almost 2am so I find this hilarious and I'm probably going to wake up my family laughing

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I think Laurin was hurt, but will recover. When Blackwing looked into the rift, he was momentarily stunned, and since Laurin seemed to be using her psionic powers, she might be hit even worse. However, this doesn't explain why nothing happened to the Order when they looked into the rift. Of course, all this is just my own headcanon.

[Zmeoaice]

She's one of my favourite characters so other headcanons are welcome too! Tell me how she and character X are doing the do/secretly know each other/share tragic backstory! Tell me Hannah's parentage- Tarquin, Miron, Julio, Right-Eye? Is Laurin the biological mother?

Yes, Laurin polymorphed into a goblin (or is a goblin who polymorphed into a human), married Right-Eye, faked her death, and reunited herself with Hannah, who is Right-Eye's daughter.

[CaDzilla]

My headcannon is that she and Miron are now thralls to the Snarl. She'll live, but you'll wish she didn't.

Why is Laurin your favorite character anyway?

[Paseo H]

Laurin's a monster. It'll be good for the story to keep her in play, but I'm not wishing her well personally.

[Socksy]

My headcannon is that she and Miron are now thralls to the Snarl. She'll live, but you'll wish she didn't.

Why is Laurin your favorite character anyway?

She's an adorable psychic BAMF with a groovalicious character design! Also there are so many opportunities for headcanons around side characters, whom I generally prefer over main ones for that reason.
Plus psionics have always been my favourite part of 3.5

I'm autistic so I may just be reading very poorly into the character, but I haven't seen her actually do anything Evil (or good, either.) I'd say she was N or LN if the Giant didn't say they were all evil. The fact she seems to be the only decent parent in the entire series so far who isn't a Dragon the size of a building helps, too. Inkyrius is great, but has about zero bearing on the plot, with something like five strips he's in.

Plus I ship her with Miron as <> (ADORABLE PLATONIC SOULMATES) so hard, plus she's fun to draw!

I very rarely have deep reasons for favourite characters.

EDIT: Phone autocorrected platonic to psionic. This is my own fault for playing so much Pathfinder over Skype.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I'm autistic so I may just be reading very poorly into the character, but I haven't seen her actually do anything Evil (or good, either.) I'd say she was N or LN if the Giant didn't say they were all evil. The fact she seems to be the only decent parent in the entire series so far who isn't a Dragon the size of a building helps, too.

For one, she is involved in an Evil scheme to rule an entire continent. She is controlling a leader of an entire nation and influencing her beyond mere advising so that she and Jacinda control the power. She chases down the Order with the intent to help Tarquin hurt or kill them. She vaporized Nale's corpse (this one is a little iffy, I imagine people could argue it either way).

Give her a little more time in the strip and she will appear to be more evil.

[Socksy]

For one, she is involved in an Evil scheme to rule an entire continent. She is controlling a leader of an entire nation and influencing her beyond mere advising so that she and Jacinda control the power. She chases down the Order with the intent to help Tarquin hurt or kill them. She vaporized Nale's corpse (this one is a little iffy, I imagine people could argue it either way).

Give her a little more time in the strip and she will appear to be more evil.

I don't think the scheme to rule the continent is evil. I think what they're doing with the continent, its resources, etc is mostly evil, but we haven't seen her do any of that stuff. Plus she really wanted that favour.
...okay I'm sounding ridiculous even to myself, you're right, she's LE.

[Kish]

I doubt she died off-panel.

I doubt she will survive the whole comic run, and, for reasons that should be obvious, I certainly hope she doesn't.

[Smolder]

My headcannon is that she and Miron are now thralls to the Snarl. She'll live, but you'll wish she didn't.

I agree. Laurin is now the High Priest of Snarl.


Err... High Priestess... High Psionicist... something like that.

[jidasfire]

The Snarl isn't a creature that shoots to wound, so to speak. Chances are, unless she and Miron popped out of there, which is possible enough, they're a couple of soulless shells right now. I personally give it 50/50 odds either way. Tarquin's fall, and that of his empire, is all but assured by the end of the series, which means his heavy hitters have to go down eventually, and since the Order has already faced them and won, what better way than at the hands of the cosmic horror which is inevitably going to be a threat to the whole world? Still, the comic has a tendency to zig when I expect a zag, so I wouldn't put too much faith in any of my predictions.

I think the reason much has been discussed of Laurin is that she doesn't make it easy for us as readers. She is engaged in a campaign of widescale oppression and engineered war which undoubtedly brings suffering and death to many, but unlike her compatriots, she doesn't feel like a supervillain. She shows genuine concern from her daughter, whom she tries to keep out of her life of crime. She seems to want to make the lands she conquers a better place (not in a moral sense, more in a prosperous one), and she shows honest resentment for those she perceives as "haves" as opposed to the "have nots" of the desert lands. She feels like a person, with all the foibles and contradictions therein, which make it harder to hate her than a maniac like Tarquin, a monster like Malack, or a shallowly greedy jerk like Miron. Her relative sanity makes readers stop and question whether she should be chopped to bits by the heroes with a far greater degree of variance than, say, Xykon. I imagine as a writer, Mr. Burlew enjoys the challenge of creating characters, even bad characters, with unique voices and points of view, which often means finding a point of empathy with them. Laurin, as a villain of moderate import in the last arc, was differentiated from her compatriots through her mildly sympathetic side.

[Nilan8888]

I'd be surprised if Laurin is dead at this point. I think having the Snarl kill her right now would be sort of a waste, because it could essentially kill her later to greater effect.

I don't think ANY of Team Tarquin are dead -- except Malak, of course, who was already dead (ha -- see what I did there?) -- and that they'll all make a re-appearance either much later in this book or, more likely, in the next (last) one.

I'd like to see at least one of them survive the series though, just to make the ending interesting. Probably not Tarquin, but maybe Laurin or Jacina or something.

[Gift Jeraff]

Don't worry, there's a chance she may not be dead, but rather deader than dead.

[dtilque]

I think the reason much has been discussed of Laurin is that she doesn't make it easy for us as readers. She is engaged in a campaign of widescale oppression and engineered war which undoubtedly brings suffering and death to many, but unlike her compatriots, she doesn't feel like a supervillain. She shows genuine concern from her daughter, whom she tries to keep out of her life of crime. She seems to want to make the lands she conquers a better place (not in a moral sense, more in a prosperous one), and she shows honest resentment for those she perceives as "haves" as opposed to the "have nots" of the desert lands. She feels like a person, with all the foibles and contradictions therein, which make it harder to hate her than a maniac like Tarquin, a monster like Malack, or a shallowly greedy jerk like Miron. Her relative sanity makes readers stop and question whether she should be chopped to bits by the heroes with a far greater degree of variance than, say, Xykon. I imagine as a writer, Mr. Burlew enjoys the challenge of creating characters, even bad characters, with unique voices and points of view, which often means finding a point of empathy with them. Laurin, as a villain of moderate import in the last arc, was differentiated from her compatriots through her mildly sympathetic side.

The above is an excellent piece of analysis. Good job.

As far as Laurin, I don't think she's a goner yet. Nor Miron.

My impression is that the Snarl is very limited in how much it can perceive through the rifts. Perhaps it's toally blind to anything on the other side of them. So someone just coming up and looking through them is fairly safe. But any intrusion, whether magical, psionic, or physical, gets its attention. At which point it lashes out blindly through the rift. So anyone near the rift may or may not be killed, although the closer one is, the higher the probablility. This seems to fit all the limited data we have on the Snarl and the rifts, at any rate.

[CaDzilla]

or a shallowly greedy jerk like Miron.

Miron may be greedy, but he's also a friendly guy and much less pretentious than Tarquin when you think about what he can do.

[Synophmn]

I'm going to hop in the "She's a Thrall" boat. I don't know about Miron, but my guess is that he escaped with his life, if only to tell the tale. Laurin, however, will be the voice for the Snarl, kinda like that one scientist in Independence Day. She was telekinetically scanning the ocean, stumbled upon the Snarl and its incomprehensible mind, which was portrayed with her standing agape while the tendrils were reflected in her eyes, and it now dominates her utterly wiped mind. It would give an opportunity to get the Snarl's perspective and motivations, assuming it's not just a feral, god-killing abomination.

[Codex]

I don't think she's a thrall. the Snarl doesn't think, reason, or plan. It kills until there's nothing left. Possibly.

[CaDzilla]

I don't think she's a thrall. the Snarl doesn't think, reason, or plan. It kills until there's nothing left. Possibly.


There is a world inside its domain that it hasn't destroyed yet.

[Everyl]

I've been wrong in predictions plenty of times, but I think that it's highly unlikely that Laurin is a thrall of the Snarl. Blackwing's eyes also changed color when he looked into the Rift, and we've seen no evidence of him being a Snarl-thrall yet. Also, it seems unlikely that Rich would introduce an interesting, complex new antagonist only to immediately throw away all of her character development to turn her into the meat-puppet of an eldritch horror.

[dtilque]

I don't think she's a thrall. the Snarl doesn't think, reason, or plan. It kills until there's nothing left. Possibly.

Not totally mindless: "...growing more intelligent" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0273.html) (2nd last panel)


There is a world inside its domain that it hasn't destroyed yet.

Do we know that that world is real and not just a high level illusion? Admittedly, it'd have to be a very high level to have fooled Laurin's Clairvoyance, but we are talking about a god-level being here

[ti'esar]

Do we know that that world is real and not just a high level illusion? Admittedly, it'd have to be a very high level to have fooled Laurin's Clairvoyance, but we are talking about a god-level being here

If you look at the panel where the Snarl is erupting from the rift, there's water splashing out near the bottom.

[Socksy]

All these analyses are really interesting! :D

[b_jonas]

I don't know, but I think the demon roaches :roach: are taking bets on it right now.

[Doug Lampert]

I've been wrong in predictions plenty of times, but I think that it's highly unlikely that Laurin is a thrall of the Snarl. Blackwing's eyes also changed color when he looked into the Rift, and we've seen no evidence of him being a Snarl-thrall yet. Also, it seems unlikely that Rich would introduce an interesting, complex new antagonist only to immediately throw away all of her character development to turn her into the meat-puppet of an eldritch horror.

Yeh, and right before she reflects the snarl in her eyes she's discussing her plans to green the desert.

Now it's perfectly possible to have a villain (which she is) discuss doing something good (which she is) and even start acting on the plan (which she is) and then get brutally killed by another bigger villain. But doing so in a story normally serves a purpose, it tells you the bigger villain is really nasty (the snarl kills gods, if it gaked Laurin this really doesn't tell us anything about it's power). It tells us that the bigger villain is a villain, but there's no reason to think the snarl knows or cares what Laurin is talking about. It gives a redemption=death thing, where the now dead villain gets to die as a good-guy without having to deal with the moral implications of now claiming that the mass-murdering manipulator is suddenly rendered good by one act, but this pretty well requires that the villain actually carry out her one good act prior to death, rather than starting the preliminaries.

Further any of these purposes really requires that she be unambigouously dead. Laurin may or may not be dead doesn't tell us anything about the snarl, or about Laurin.

I don't see what narative purpose killing Laurin would serve, and the whole "what her favor is" thing becomes mostly meaningless if she's dead. If she's dead why did we bother with her motivations any more than we bother with goblin warrior #657's motivations?

We've seen other people reflect the snarl in their eyes and not die. I see no reason to assume Laurin is dead.

Now, "Will she be okay?", probably not, she's a significant villain in a story that the good guys are going to win. I doubt we'll have a prolonged denouement where the heroes deal with all the loose end villains, so she'll show up again by the final confrontation with X, RC, and the snarl, and probably get killed then. I'd give her and shoulder-pads guy fair odds of "most likely to survive of the Vector Legion", but that's still not great odds.

[Boring McReader]

I don't see what narative purpose killing Laurin would serve, and the whole "what her favor is" thing becomes mostly meaningless if she's dead. If she's dead why did we bother with her motivations any more than we bother with goblin warrior #657's motivations?


Because she was not a nameless warrior. She was a fleshed-out character in a party of fleshed-out evil adventurers who all had to hold as much sway as Tarquin when they appeared. She helped show the dynamic that kept their alliance going, without being a blank slate or a carbon copy of other party members. She had personality for the sake of having personality. It's part of building a convincing world.

The main narrative purpose for killing her would be to set up the Snarl's grand entrance into the world. She was narratively expendable, and the narrative wanted to show us something that could casually overpower two of the most powerful characters every introduced into the comic. She doesn't have to be dead or catatonic, but she doesn't have to be alive either. Narratively, her fate will help establish what the Snarl is all about. She can do that having already expired.

The favor was taking possession of the Rift. That got her into position to attract the Snarl. It's been resolved.

[Codex]

There is a world inside its domain that it hasn't destroyed yet.

Hence the "Possibly" at the end of the sentence.

[Koo Rehtorb]

For one, she is involved in an Evil scheme to rule an entire continent. She is controlling a leader of an entire nation and influencing her beyond mere advising so that she and Jacinda control the power. She chases down the Order with the intent to help Tarquin hurt or kill them. She vaporized Nale's corpse (this one is a little iffy, I imagine people could argue it either way).

Eh. I could easily see the world domination thing being along the lines of "Well the alternatives would be worse. I'll do my bit to make my piece of the spoils livable and that's the best I'm going to get."

I also don't see agreeing to help kill enemy combatants for your ally as being that evil. Well in keeping with "neutral leaning evil", in my opinion.

[thereaper]

A good or neutral character would not be an equal participant in Tarquin's plan, because the plan itself is evil.

[Koo Rehtorb]

I don't think sneakily annexing countries to build stability in a war torn region is inherently an evil plan, more of a ruthlessly efficient one.

There's also the fact that we haven't seen what Laurin's region actually looks like. It might have a much higher standard of living than the Empire of Blood.

[thereaper]

The way they've been shown to do it in the comic absolutely is. Half the point is that no one ever notices the con because everything stays exactly the same, with only the people who appear to be in charge changing.

And yes, Laurin is evil (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?318550-The-rapid-change-in-Tarquin/page4&p=16575471#post16575471).

[Koo Rehtorb]

And yes, Laurin is evil (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?318550-The-rapid-change-in-Tarquin/page4&p=16575471#post16575471).

Yes yes, I'm aware that she's been stated to be evil. However the original point being argued was that we've never actually seen her do anything particularly evil. No doubt she's done all sorts of awful stuff in the background, but we haven't actually seen any of it. Nothing she's actually done on screen really qualifies so far.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I don't think sneakily annexing countries to build stability in a war torn region is inherently an evil plan, more of a ruthlessly efficient one.

There's also the fact that we haven't seen what Laurin's region actually looks like. It might have a much higher standard of living than the Empire of Blood.

She is still manipulating someone to get what she wants. Regardless of what she is accomplishing, she is doing so in an evil manner. And we know that the intention of the plan is not to build stability. They are trying to be on top in the Western Continent. Admittedly, Laurin does seem to want to bring water to the desert, but this is not done out of altruistic motives, rather it is too get her daughter a better job.

[Koo Rehtorb]

She is still manipulating someone to get what she wants. Regardless of what she is accomplishing, she is doing so in an evil manner. And we know that the intention of the plan is not to build stability. They are trying to be on top in the Western Continent. Admittedly, Laurin does seem to want to bring water to the desert, but this is not done out of altruistic motives, rather it is too get her daughter a better job.

Manipulating people isn't inherently evil. And we don't know what her intention for the plan is. We know what Malack and Tarquin's intentions are, but they don't speak for the motives of the rest of the team.

If they're each getting a third of the continent they could easily all have very separate goals for what they're going to do with their chunk of it.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Manipulating people isn't inherently evil. And we don't know what her intention for the plan is. We know what Malack and Tarquin's intentions are, but they don't speak for the motives of the rest of the team.

If they're each getting a third of the continent they could easily all have very separate goals for what they're going to do with their chunk of it.

If she has goals that are so separate from her teammates, then why is she working with them? She doesn't seem to benefit much from being tied with them, and she could easily be accomplishing these things by herself, as a high-level Psion in a world were apparently very few exist (or else Redcloak would have known that psionics existed in this world). Also, I think that manipulation is inherently evil, especially when she is using it to subjugate other nations, regardless of how this helps the continent (if, indeed it does, a hypothesis that I am inclined to disbelieve).

[Koo Rehtorb]

If she has goals that are so separate from her teammates, then why is she working with them? She doesn't seem to benefit much from being tied with them, and she could easily be accomplishing these things by herself, as a high-level Psion in a world were apparently very few exist (or else Redcloak would have known that psionics existed in this world). Also, I think that manipulation is inherently evil, especially when she is using it to subjugate other nations, regardless of how this helps the continent (if, indeed it does, a hypothesis that I am inclined to disbelieve).

That's like asking why V is working with the Order when she's so much more powerful than the rest of them. Any adventurer benefits from a party of reliable and competent allies and friends. Pragmatic seems like the main theme of the whole group, they all know that they can accomplish far more together than they can by backstabbing each other and breaking up the team, regardless of any personal differences they might have.

[Lombard]

I see some parallels to Vaarsuvius in that, with a character this powerful it's sometimes necessary to take them out of the action for awhile when the author doesn't want the flow of the story to be undermined by not-unreasonable questions about "well if that was the goal then why didn't Powerful Character just use Powerful Power to resolve things in 2 rounds."

[Doug Lampert]

Because she was not a nameless warrior. She was a fleshed-out character in a party of fleshed-out evil adventurers who all had to hold as much sway as Tarquin when they appeared. She helped show the dynamic that kept their alliance going, without being a blank slate or a carbon copy of other party members. She had personality for the sake of having personality. It's part of building a convincing world.

The main narrative purpose for killing her would be to set up the Snarl's grand entrance into the world. She was narratively expendable, and the narrative wanted to show us something that could casually overpower two of the most powerful characters every introduced into the comic. She doesn't have to be dead or catatonic, but she doesn't have to be alive either. Narratively, her fate will help establish what the Snarl is all about. She can do that having already expired.

The favor was taking possession of the Rift. That got her into position to attract the Snarl. It's been resolved.

She's a fleshed out character because he fleshed her out. We know almost nothing about Miron who fills a role of comparable importance in the same party.

Your alleged main narative purpose is COMPLETELY MISSED if she was killed in the previous scene. It's not part of the grand entrance when we don't know if it's happened and when the snarl is ALREADY KNOWN to be able to destroy a world and an entire panthoen in seconds. It doesn't tell us anything about the snarl, and given that it's uncertain, it wouldn't tell us anything even if the snarl weren't already established.

[Boring McReader]

Yes yes, I'm aware that she's been stated to be evil. However the original point being argued was that we've never actually seen her do anything particularly evil. No doubt she's done all sorts of awful stuff in the background, but we haven't actually seen any of it. Nothing she's actually done on screen really qualifies so far.

Didn't the Giant explicitly say that in OOTS World you don't have to act evil to be evil? You make decisions based on your internal alignment, but it doesn't preclude a good character doing something evil in the service of good, or an evil character acting good in the absence of reasons not to. It's more that in the right circumstances, the evil character will be able to take actions a good character would never consider. Elan let his father fall off a boat to prevent harm to his friends and free the team for a more important goal. His father tripped Haley out of a window to force a surrender. Similar acts, completely different motivations and context.

Laurin pals around with a mass-murdering vampire, a self-aggrandizing despot, an enthusiastic assassin, and a selfish necromancer. She does this so she can give her own daughter a comfortable life at the expense of thousands of others. She agrees to help Tarquin try to kill his son's closest friends in exchange for an unrelated favor that benefits her personally. She's a core member of one of the most evil conspiracies in OOTS World; she's in as deep as the others. Like Malack, to be monstrous she doesn't have to commit evil acts every minute of the day or speak with Xykon's dramatic cruelty. Her life is evil.

[Boring McReader]

She's a fleshed out character because he fleshed her out. We know almost nothing about Miron who fills a role of comparable importance in the same party.

Your alleged main narative purpose is COMPLETELY MISSED if she was killed in the previous scene. It's not part of the grand entrance when we don't know if it's happened and when the snarl is ALREADY KNOWN to be able to destroy a world and an entire panthoen in seconds. It doesn't tell us anything about the snarl, and given that it's uncertain, it wouldn't tell us anything even if the snarl weren't already established.

It tells us that the Snarl is bursting through the portal and overwhelming the most powerful mentalist introduced thus far. The next we see of her could be a skeleton discovered by a patrol, or a flashback narrated by a survivor. Her future narrative role depends entirely on what the Giant intends. Like Tarquin, she left nothing on the table important enough to ensure her return to the story. The favor is wrapped up, her reasons for helping the conspiracy and wanting the portal were clear and unambiguous, and the Snarl doesn't need her alive to make its next move. We got a nice cliffhanger that leaves a way for Laurin to reenter the story later on. But as of now, she's as expendable as Miron.

[JustAnotherSoul]

Well, looking at the last panel we see her in. It appears Miron is touching her, so them teleporting to safety is not out of the question, and it wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing to have her explain what the heck happened and why she went all slack-jawed. We've seen Blackwing explain it, but he's not a psionic and doesn't have as great a mastery over his mind, so it's conceivable she'll be back to talk about her experience, but it's too early in this arc to tell.

[Livius]

My read on what happened to Laurin in #945:
She was manifesting Read Thoughts (http://http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/readThoughts.htm) to check for creatures on the other side of the portal. She didn't find any minds until she found the Snarl in the last panel on the first page. Since the Snarl has an Int > 26 (and also > Laurin's Int + 10), she was stunned for 1 round and the power ended, both of which we see on the last page of #945.

She'll be fine once Miron teleports them out of there.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

That's like asking why V is working with the Order when she's so much more powerful than the rest of them. Any adventurer benefits from a party of reliable and competent allies and friends. Pragmatic seems like the main theme of the whole group, they all know that they can accomplish far more together than they can by backstabbing each other and breaking up the team, regardless of any personal differences they might have.

Vaarsuvius did leave for a while, because they felt like the Order wasn't accomplishing anything. They returned, but only because they felt bad for wasting their power in the manner that they did. Not to mention, Vaarsuvius actually has a reason beyond needing more people: They and the rest of the Order have the same goal. Otherwise, Vaarsuvius might as well join with Xykon. On the other hand, Laurin, according to your hypothesis, would not share a common goal with the rest of her group. My point was not that she should leave the group because she is more powerful, but rather that if she were to leave the group she could survive on her own and not have to work differently from her group.

[Koo Rehtorb]

Didn't the Giant explicitly say that in OOTS World you don't have to act evil to be evil? You make decisions based on your internal alignment, but it doesn't preclude a good character doing something evil in the service of good, or an evil character acting good in the absence of reasons not to.

Again, not disputing that she is evil. I'm just saying that we haven't seen irrefutable proof that she is.


Laurin pals around with a mass-murdering vampire, a self-aggrandizing despot, an enthusiastic assassin, and a selfish necromancer. She does this so she can give her own daughter a comfortable life at the expense of thousands of others.

Hang on I don't agree that that's the sum total of her motivations. Sure it's a big part of it, but personally I think that Laurin is trying to give her daughter a better life by building a more stable and prosperous society around her in addition to a healthy dose of nepotism. As for the evil party, I don't think hanging out with evil people is totally unreasonable for a neutral character, in the same way that hanging out with a good party isn't. So long as you steer clear of their worst excesses it's probably fine if you have a good reason for it.


She agrees to help Tarquin try to kill his son's closest friends in exchange for an unrelated favor that benefits her personally.

It's not like she was helping him stomp on babies or anything. She agrees to help Tarquin in a battle against a group of dangerous armed combatants who are screwing with national interests. It's not very nice, certainly.


On the other hand, Laurin, according to your hypothesis, would not share a common goal with the rest of her group. My point was not that she should leave the group because she is more powerful, but rather that if she were to leave the group she could survive on her own and not have to work differently from her group.

I agree Laurin could survive on her own, but I don't agree that she could take over the continent on her own. They share the common goal of taking over the continent, certainly, but I don't agree that they necessarily share the same ends once they have it. Tarquin and Malack are going to turn their chunk of it into a LE hellhole, but Laurin might not do the same with hers.

[thereaper]

Being a willing and equal participant in a plan involving the violent subjugation of massive numbers of people with daily atrocities (the status quo of the continent, which must be maintained to keep the con from being exposed) is very evil, to say nothing of the fact that she's willing to go along with killing whoever Tarquin wants (a good or neutral person would need better reasons for killing someone than "it benefits me" and "my evil teammate wants me to").

[Koo Rehtorb]

Being a willing and equal participant in a plan involving the violent subjugation of massive numbers of people with daily atrocities (the status quo of the continent, which must be maintained to keep the con from being exposed)

There is, potentially, no other way. The natural state of the continent is bloody chaos, a plan that will eventually lead to a reduction in the bloody chaos can be justified so long as it's not excessive.


to say nothing of the fact that she's willing to go along with killing whoever Tarquin wants (a good or neutral person would need better reasons for killing someone than "it benefits me" and "my evil teammate wants me to").

I don't think one instance of that makes a general rule. Again, these people aren't exactly innocent civilians. They're dangerous adventurers meddling in national interests, who'd just finished killing probably a hundred soldiers in front of her. It wasn't very pleasant, but I think a neutral character can do some nasty things from time to time without falling into evil.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

There is, potentially, no other way. The natural state of the continent is bloody chaos, a plan that will eventually lead to a reduction in the bloody chaos can be justified so long as it's not excessive.
But, we have seen no evidence that she intends to do so. The only way in which she has tried to help someone else was to secure a position for her daughter, not to help her part of the continent. There are many better ways that the continent could be healed, especially as far as bringing .ore water to the continent. However, she seems to think that the best way to do so is to conquer lands and then somehow try to establish stability, even though this goes against the plan.

I think that Laurin is evil, and I believe that what we have seen so far is proof enough. Clearly you disagree and I suppose we will have to agree to disagree, since it seems like neither of us will change our stance soon.

[Paseo H]

Laurin is just as evil as the rest of them. I think people are confused because we're comparing her to a dude who burned slaves alive and coldly murdered his own admittedly monstrous son simply because said son refused to bend the knee.

Laurin has:

* Expressed fondness for Malack, who was planning one of the most horrifying evil schemes in the story thus far
* Some may argue that merely going after the party on Tarquin's sayso is not inherently evil, except that she knows what Tarquin is
* And surely she knows exactly what Jacinda is
* She also tried to straight up murder Julio Scoundrel for personal reasons; let's not quibble over the situation, she expressed her personal distaste for him
* She hates elves for not "sharing the wealth"
* And sure she loves her daughter, and is doing all this for her...but given the strip with the Snarl, it's clear that Hannah is the only person she gives the slightest damn about, everyone else can burn

So far all of the Vector Legion has proven to be not just evil but Evil, except for SPG who might turn out to somehow be merely evil, but I doubt it. In fact, I'd say the only bit of decency any of them has seem to shown was Miron pulling Laurin back from the Snarl, and that could merely be not wanting to lose the most powerful member of the party.

[ti'esar]

* Expressed fondness for Malack, who was planning one of the most horrifying evil schemes in the story thus far

I personally feel this point in particular deserves emphasis. Back when Malack's nature was still in question, part of the reason I was convinced he was evil - and not in some half-hearted well-intentioned-extremist way, but genuinely full-fledged Evil - was his friendship with Tarquin. A neutral person might arguably participate in Tarquin's plan for the sake of a perceived greater good, but he wouldn't actually like the guy. I'm inclined to think the same is true for Laurin and Malack: expressing rage and grief over the destruction of a genocidal man-eating monster is at least as damning in its implications for her nature as anything she's actually done onscreen.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I personally feel this point in particular deserves emphasis. Back when Malack's nature was still in question, part of the reason I was convinced he was evil - and not in some half-hearted well-intentioned-extremist way, but genuinely full-fledged Evil - was his friendship with Tarquin. A neutral person might arguably participate in Tarquin's plan for the sake of a perceived greater good, but he wouldn't actually like the guy. I'm inclined to think the same is true for Laurin and Malack: expressing rage and grief over the destruction of a genocidal man-eating monster is at least as damning in its implications for her nature as anything she's actually done onscreen.
Yes. I agree with all this too. While she seems to not really care for Tarquin at all, she seems to genuinely mourn the death of the person who was planning on holding massive sacrifices to his god everyday, Aztec-style.

And I agree with everything that Paseo H said, especially the part about Hannah.

[Kish]

As I mentioned to Paseo H privately, if Rich ever shows more details of Laurin's relationship with Hannah, I'll be quite surprised if it doesn't turn out to be "just as abusive as Tarquin's relationship with Elan, in a different way."

Redefinitions of evil and the desirability of undercutting them, and all.

On an unrelated note, it amuses me that when I go to edit this post, I have the option to "delete this post in the following manner"; there's only one choice and it's just Delete Message, but it sounds like the board is going to ask me, "Do you wish to smite your post with hellfire or with pestilence?"

[warrl]

I also don't see agreeing to help kill enemy combatants for your ally as being that evil. Well in keeping with "neutral leaning evil", in my opinion.

In itself, I would agree that helping an ally kill enemy combatants is not evil.

However, if you're aware that your ally is evil and that the enemy combatants were neither enemy nor combatants until your ally attacked them - and are now attempting only to depart - that's rather different.

[Everyl]

The scene that tipped me over the line to considering Laurin to be capital-E Evil was when she dispelled Durkon's Protection from Sunlight spell. Depending how much Laurin knows of vampires, that scene implies one of two things:
1) She knows a great deal about the nature of vampires, and thus was destroying something inherently, ineffably, unconscionably Evil... though this implies that she knew that Malack was just as unconscionably Evil, but she was not only friendly with him, but highly upset at news of his death.
Or,
2) She doesn't know much about he nature of vampires, in which case she was greeting the last child of her recently-departed friend by cold-bloodedly murdering him. Said child happened to be standing next to some people that another friend had asked her to help murder, but had taken no hostile actions, nor indeed any actions whatsoever besides mind-controlling some soldiers who were trying to kill him and fleeing for his (un)life, since she first saw him.

In the first case, she knowingly approved of Malack's mind-boggling evil, and was probably fine with the knowledge that, in a few decades, he'd turn everything she built in the Western Continent into an abbatoir. In the second case, she's the kind of person who unquestioningly murders people, even if she has good reason to believe them to be non-hostile.

Laurin may have personal motivations that are less reprehensible than some of her teammates, but to me, the comic has already made it perfectly clear that she'd register on a Detect Evil spell.

[Porthos]

There is, potentially, no other way.

Says who?


The natural state of the continent is bloody chaos

Chaos isn't necessarily a bad thing. As it is, instead of a bloody chaos, there is a bloody order (I think people tend to forget just how much death, suffering and unjust behavior goes on under Tarquin's rule). Difference without a difference, if you ask me.

Put simply, order in not necessarily inherently better than chaos. Not when using the terms in a D&D sense, at least.


a plan that will eventually lead to a reduction in the bloody chaos can be justified so long as it's not excessive.

Yeah, not even gonna touch this. Except to say that 'not excessive' is not exactly the strictest of definitions.

[Paseo H]

The scene that tipped me over the line to considering Laurin to be capital-E Evil was when she dispelled Durkon's Protection from Sunlight spell. Depending how much Laurin knows of vampires, that scene implies one of two things:
1) She knows a great deal about the nature of vampires, and thus was destroying something inherently, ineffably, unconscionably Evil... though this implies that she knew that Malack was just as unconscionably Evil, but she was not only friendly with him, but highly upset at news of his death.
Or,
2) She doesn't know much about he nature of vampires, in which case she was greeting the last child of her recently-departed friend by cold-bloodedly murdering him. Said child happened to be standing next to some people that another friend had asked her to help murder, but had taken no hostile actions, nor indeed any actions whatsoever besides mind-controlling some soldiers who were trying to kill him and fleeing for his (un)life, since she first saw him.


Yes, I was honestly surprised that she was so hostile to Durkon, given how much she seemed to love Malack.

[Particle_Man]

I don't think she is evil, because I don't think there is enough of her left to be anything anymore, ethically speaking. She is, imho, dead beyond all hope of resurrection, dead in body, destroyed in soul, exterminated from the OOTS-verse, and nothing more than a memory to those that have met her. You don't come back from a Snarl encounter when the Snarl wins the initiative roll.

[zimmerwald1915]

I don't think she is evil, because I don't think there is enough of her left to be anything anymore, ethically speaking. She is, imho, dead beyond all hope of resurrection, dead in body, destroyed in soul, exterminated from the OOTS-verse, and nothing more than a memory to those that have met her. You don't come back from a Snarl encounter when the Snarl wins the initiative roll.
What result if Miron won the initiative roll and managed to get Laurin out of the zone of danger?

[Particle_Man]

What result if Miron won the initiative roll and managed to get Laurin out of the zone of danger?

He clearly didn't. Snarl stabbed Laurin already. Laurin is gone. Bereft of life she rests. She has not even gone on to join any choir, invisible or otherwise. Her daughter may now be an orphan.

[Socksy]

Why would you say that? :c He made the roll! He even took, like, at least a -2 penalty to it for her! At least let her body be safe, if nothing else. HE LOVES HER AND THEY ARE PERFECT PLATONIC SOULMATES WHO WILL LIVE OR AT LEAST NOT PERMA-DIE PLS

[Jaxzan Proditor]

He clearly didn't. Snarl stabbed Laurin already. Laurin is gone. Bereft of life she rests. She has not even gone on to join any choir, invisible or otherwise. Her daughter may now be an orphan.

The Snarl seems to have not hit her yet, unless it happened off-panel.

[Phoniex]

Two things

1) I think lauren has a code, we never saw her inflict physical damage to a living person in how many comics? All she did was effectively status effects -pain/stun/hold. Now yes she did this with the goal of murder/evil. But I do think she has a line and that she wont cross it. Which is why she has the rest of her team, to do the wet work for her.

2) Rule of death in this comic.. if u don't see X's over the eyes in a comic then that character is NOT dead. Its the same in movies.. if u don't see the broken body or some other proof then they will be back before the end of the story. Its just like thog, I bet both lauren and thog are seen again!

[Doug Lampert]

Two things

1) I think lauren has a code, we never saw her inflict physical damage to a living person in how many comics? All she did was effectively status effects -pain/stun/hold. Now yes she did this with the goal of murder/evil. But I do think she has a line and that she wont cross it. Which is why she has the rest of her team, to do the wet work for her.

2) Rule of death in this comic.. if u don't see X's over the eyes in a comic then that character is NOT dead. Its the same in movies.. if u don't see the broken body or some other proof then they will be back before the end of the story. Its just like thog, I bet both lauren and thog are seen again!

Thog's ambiguous death already served a narative purpose. If he had been unambiguously dead then by the time Tarquin pretended to be Thog many or most readers would have forgotten that the Order didn't actually know his status, and would be wondering how Tarquin could possibly hope to take anyone in by pretending to be Thog.

By making it ambiguous The Giant made it much more likely that readers would remember that the Order doesn't know.

In other words, even if the Giant wants Thog to be dead for the plot, he had a good reason at that time not to show him as dead.

We do not, yet, have any similar reason for Laurin to be ambiguous if dead.

[Kish]

Thog's ambiguous death already served a narative purpose. If he had been unambiguously dead then by the time Tarquin pretended to be Thog many or most readers would have forgotten that the Order didn't actually know his status, and would be wondering how Tarquin could possibly hope to take anyone in by pretending to be Thog.
If Thog had been unambiguously dead, then five minutes after the strip where he died, someone would have posted on this board, "That's it, the Linear Guild isn't getting out of this book alive."

[snikrept]

The Snarl seems to have not hit her yet, unless it happened off-panel.

The Snarl seems to have had remarkably poor aim in general in that panel, compared to what appear to be precision strikes in the crayon flashback. Dozens of folks standing around the crater -- did it hit anyone? Maybe that one guard? Also in the flashback it appeared to manifest claws at the ends of its... pseudopods when attacking. Could be it's not attacking at all, there in the desert.

[ti'esar]

If Thog had been unambiguously dead, then five minutes after the strip where he died, someone would have posted on this board, "That's it, the Linear Guild isn't getting out of this book alive."

I seem to recall the Giant himself saying something along these lines, but I'm not sure.

[Gift Jeraff]

AFAIK, no:

I won't comment on whether or not he's dead right now, but rest assured that if he doesn't show up again in the main story, it won't be because I didn't like writing him.

[Forum Explorer]

I think Laurin died. And I think the narrative purpose to her death is so the Vector Team goes after the other gates. They aren't going to leave a giant threat in their backyard, not if they don't have a way to control it after all.

Alternatively she died so that when the epilogue comes along it makes more sense for the three empires to be crumbling.


It is possible that she lived, but unlikely I think. Miron might be in the same boat, but he does have contingency.


As for how good she is, well I can see the possibility for her to be neutral if slightly delusional. She might think it's better in the long run, and certainly better for her daughter. And she might think that she might have to one day kill Malack, but didn't want to because he was her friend.

[Socksy]

I think Laurin died. And I think the narrative purpose to her death is so the Vector Team goes after the other gates. They aren't going to leave a giant threat in their backyard, not if they don't have a way to control it after all.


I like this possibility the most out of all the ones suggesting Laurin dies. Perhaps the party were unsure about it at first, but Miron (who autocorrects to moron on my phone :p) or one of the others demands vengeance! They certainly did kill Malack's killer owo


As for how good she is, well I can see the possibility for her to be neutral if slightly delusional. She might think it's better in the long run, and certainly better for her daughter. And she might think that she might have to one day kill Malack, but didn't want to because he was her friend.

/squeals uncontrollably
This is adorable!! And believable! And I totally want to sig it can I sig it *u*

[Koo Rehtorb]

I don't think an ambiguous death serves any narrative purpose at this point. If she had died then I would have expected it to be completely clear, right down to the X eyes.

It's more possible than she was enthralled by it, in my opinion.

[Particle_Man]

It is possible that she lived, but unlikely I think. Miron might be in the same boat, but he does have contingency.

Didn't he already use that up?

[Kish]

Contingency isn't a once-in-a-lifetime thing. Presumably recasting it was or is a priority for Miron.

That said, I don't know what Contingency he'd cast that would help him here. "Teleport me away as soon as I see an enemy" would tick off not only Tarquin, but everyone else in the Vector Legion; if he reset the damage-based Contingency he had before, it won't do anything against an enemy that can drop him to -10 and soul-eaten in one action.

[David Argall]

Laurin dead seems to have little plot purpose. About all we have been able to think of was showing how tough the Snarl is, but that is easily shown a lot of other ways. Just a scene of Laurin running away would do well enough.
But a live Laurin has plot utility. She can now tell the party, and us, all sorts of stuff about the Snarl, maybe including "insert blade here to untangle it". Right now all the party knows is that it is hostile and very powerful [& it is not sure of that]. So we need some way for them to find out how to deal with it. There are lots of other ways of course, but Laurin is a very prime way, quite possibly the prime way.
So the odds heavily favor Laurin being alive.

[TidePriestess]

I don't know whether she's more likely to be dead or alive, to be honest. But I didn't really like her; caring for your children doesn't mean that much when this is the arc that introduced Tarquin, and she's still out for continental domination via extremely brutal means. In addition to being racist.

[Socksy]

I don't know whether she's more likely to be dead or alive, to be honest. But I didn't really like her; caring for your children doesn't mean that much when this is the arc that introduced Tarquin, and she's still out for continental domination via extremely brutal means. In addition to being racist.

Hey, I'm fairly sure she'd hate black and white elves equally!

[TidePriestess]

Hey, I'm fairly sure she'd hate black and white elves equally!
I didn't use "speciesist" because I don't really know whether it applied when humans and elves can produce reproductively viable offspring.

[ReaderAt2046]

I don't think she is evil, because I don't think there is enough of her left to be anything anymore, ethically speaking. She is, imho, dead beyond all hope of resurrection, dead in body, destroyed in soul, exterminated from the OOTS-verse, and nothing more than a memory to those that have met her. You don't come back from a Snarl encounter when the Snarl wins the initiative roll.


The Snarl seems to have not hit her yet, unless it happened off-panel.

Concur with Jaxzan on this. The Snarl never actually touched Laurin when it emerged from the rift, she was just stunned by psychically looking at it.

IMHC, Laurin survives and gets at least a semi-happy ending (she is far and away my favorite of the Vector Legion characters). Probably ends up retiring and living as a slightly kooky old lady, while Hannah ends up marrying a warlord and becomes queen of a stable country.

[Kish]

Isn't having this-is-how-she-ends-up headcanon for a character who is real unlikely to have made her last appearance in the work she's in rather...premature?

[Socksy]

Isn't having this-is-how-she-ends-up headcanon for a character who is real unlikely to have made her last appearance in the work she's in rather...premature?

"You're WMGing already? She's not finished yet!"
"Premature elaboration"

[ReaderAt2046]

Isn't having this-is-how-she-ends-up headcanon for a character who is real unlikely to have made her last appearance in the work she's in rather...premature?

Sort of... the first bit (survives and eventually gets a happy ending) is what I want to happen and, I think, plausible given the story thus far. Future strips may change that.

[Haar]

I can see the whole "no one knows the entire truth about the Snarl" concept having some sort of cutaway comic of Laurin explaining something of importance to her team, in which, they will either join the fray, or at least tell us that Laurin and Miron were able to get away.

Now to wait for the inevitable "Haha you're wrong" cutaway panel where Laurin and possibly Miron have been horrifically rended and destroyed.

[Particle_Man]

Another thing to think of. Laurin is the teleporter-specialist. Thus Miron is less likely to have teleportation magic ready that day, since he could rely on Laurin normally. His contingency seems to be keyed to taking lots of damage so he might get away if that is up and the Snarl hurts him just enough not to kill him outright.

Laurin is dazed or stunned or something bad by the Snarl.

The Snarl destroyed (or maybe absorbed) an entire planet.

Let me say that again.

The Snarl destroyed/absorbed an entire planet.

Laurin is meant to survive being in close proximity to the Snarl while stunned/dazed and thus unable to use her powers?

[Forum Explorer]

/squeals uncontrollably
This is adorable!! And believable! And I totally want to sig it can I sig it *u*

:smallconfused: Well if you want.

[Kish]

Sort of... the first bit (survives and eventually gets a happy ending) is what I want to happen and, I think, plausible given the story thus far. Future strips may change that.
Yes, I got that. Personally, I only use "headcanon" to refer to things that I consider both open and certain to stay open. So I might say, e.g., that I'd enjoy it if it turned out Hannah is secretly an adventurer and part of a group dedicated to freeing the continent from the Vector Legion, and Hannah wound up orphaning herself between one self-serving "it's all for you, you should be grateful!" line from Laurin and the next...but I wouldn't call that headcanon.

[Socksy]

Yes, I got that. Personally, I only use "headcanon" to refer to things that I consider both open and certain to stay open. So I might say, e.g., that I'd enjoy it if it turned out Hannah is secretly an adventurer and part of a group dedicated to freeing the continent from the Vector Legion, and Hannah wound up orphaning herself between one self-serving "it's all for you, you should be grateful!" line from Laurin and the next...but I wouldn't call that headcanon.

But Laurin thinks Hannah thinks she's an interior designer, so why would she say stuff like that?
Oh my goosshhh what if Hannah is an adventurer secretly though?
Eeee!!

[Kish]

In my not-headcanon, Laurin will say that line when she is the last surviving member of the Vector Legion and knows enough about what's going on to understand that she is not having a weapon aimed at her by a plumber. :smalltongue:

[Zmeoaice]

Laurin is meant to survive being in close proximity to the Snarl while stunned/dazed and thus unable to use her powers?

We don't know how long the snarl lasted, or how fast it is going. If she was killed, it would have been shown.

[Socksy]

In my not-headcanon, Laurin will say that line when she is the last surviving member of the Vector Legion and knows enough about what's going on to understand that she is not having a weapon aimed at her by a plumber. :smalltongue:

And it would mirror the whole Tarquin-Elan-Nale relationship and interactions as well...

I don't want it to happen but it sounds so plausible... D:
:smallmad::smallmad::smallfrown::smallannoyed::sma llfrown:

[Haar]

We don't know how long the snarl lasted, or how fast it is going. If she was killed, it would have been shown.

I would think it's a similar situation to Thog's. For now, it will continue to be unknown, until the Giant throws the answer out there.