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Grizzled Gryphon
2007-02-04, 11:11 AM
Anyone have any good combos using this method? I have thought up and found a few, myself.

Monk/Caster. More useful with cleric than the others, this is a good combo, especially if you take a lot of touch spells. Duskblade is another really good one for this combo, too.

Fighter/Rogue This is one of the best gestalts, in my opinion.

Dragonfire Adept/Monk can be pretty good, too.

Warblade/Swordsage is really good, if you don't mind having all good saves, best BAB, D12 hit die, and a HUGE amount of manuevers. Oh, and access to all the disciplines except devoted spirit.

Barbarian/Fighter is pretty sub-optimal for most optimizers, but they really do work together well.

Scout/Rogue is great for that fun sneak attack skirmish nastiness. However, the class abilities overlap so much, it isn't a good one.

Hexblade/Warlock This combo of classes seem to be made for each other. Almost like they planned it that way...

its_all_ogre
2007-02-04, 11:16 AM
druid//scout
paladin//sorcerer(obviously) change paladin to dragon disciple asap(level6)
psion//fightery type prestige the fighter
wizard//ranger prestige the wizard

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-02-04, 11:25 AM
Scout//Rogue is useless in gestalt, UNLESS you use the feats from Complete Scoundrel, and then instead take, say, one level of rogue, then the rest in scout, or vice versa.

Swordsage//Fighter is awesome for a melee lover. If you're a human, take Able Learner with your first feat and then you also double as a very good (and only slightly depowered compared to a rogue) skill monkey.

Monk is just a generally solid secondary for anyone, but is especially potent if point buy lets you get lots of high attributes all around. The only time when it's not so good is when you're planning on wearing armor. Crusader//Monk is incredible, and I highly reccomend it.

Druid//Cleric is the single most powerful gestalt build there is, I feel. So much so that I ban this choice from my games (literally the only thing I ban). But hey, if you can get away with it, you will become a terror that makes DM's weep.

Wizard//Rogue/Scout is perfect for those that love both skills and arcane magic. As you pump your intelligence, watch as your skill points go cosmic and your powers become legendary.

Ranger is a good compliment to nearly any class. It'll aid your martial prowess and get you a few spells, as well as some nifty outdoors stuff. Add in the high skillpoints, full BAB, and two good saves, and you've got a pretty competent addition to nearly every gestalt build there is.

WARNING- if you aren't playing a full caster on either half of your build, you have only two options for not being useless during the late game. One is to be a skill monkey. The other is to use ToB. Remember this. Dead serious, you will become a pale shadow to the casters otherwise.

EDIT- Oh, and yes, Swordsage + either Crusader or Warblade will create the ultimate melee combatant. You will be able to stand toe to toe with casters and wreak some serious havoc.

AtomicKitKat
2007-02-04, 11:25 AM
Hex/Duskblade. :P
Wizard/Swashbuckler.
Barbarian/Rogue going into Frenzied Berserker/Fang of Lolth. With pouncy equipment. :P

dead_but_dreaming
2007-02-04, 11:26 AM
warmage/swashbuckler or warmage/hexblade I suppose. Haven't analyzed in depth, but it sounds cool.

Emperor Tippy
2007-02-04, 11:35 AM
Wizard//Monk with Kung Fu monk as your feat level feat

Maxymiuk
2007-02-04, 11:38 AM
How about Wizard/Specialist Wizard for twice the fun?

NEO|Phyte
2007-02-04, 11:47 AM
Barbarian/Rogue going into Frenzied Berserker/Fang of Lolth. With pouncy equipment. :P
I'm actually planning something like this out for a game that might be starting back up.
Its currently sitting as a WereDeinonychus/Ninja//Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker/Warshaper, though I'm kinda looking for something to change the ninja out for.

Use Warshaper to give myself an extra natural attack at some point while in animal form, swift action Ghost Step to be invisible for 1 round, Free actions to activate Rage and Frenzy, then Pounce on something up to 140 ft. away with 6 attacks at or near your full attack bonus, dealing lots of STR/Power Attack damage, and 7d6 Sudden Strike each if applicable.

Probably not nearly as powerful as it could be, but the mental image of a raptor disappearing with a screech to reappear next to a suddenly eviscerated foe a few seconds later is much awesome.

PinkysBrain
2007-02-04, 11:49 AM
Artificer 12/X 8//whatever
Cleric 20//whatever.

The big problem with Gestalt is that you can't use combo classes, which actually makes some combination less suited than they are in non gestalt. In non gestalt a monk/wizard is great because enlightened fist is an amazing PrC ... in gestalt it's only a so so combo.

its_all_ogre
2007-02-04, 12:08 PM
for damage barbarian/scout. barbarians normally do not have the feats to make full attacking really worthwhile and normally go with power attack/leap attack with two handed weapon. scout gives a few bonus feats and skirmish.
plus you get a 50 foot speed at level 2(i think) so you are as fast as a horse!

i think the duskblade cannot channel non-duskblade spells argument is about to get a seriously aggressive debate about now.....

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-02-04, 12:11 PM
You can't do wizard//specialist wizard, because you're only allowed to take wizard once, and you can only choose your specialization then.

PinkysBrain
2007-02-04, 12:12 PM
Oops, nevermind ... don't know what I got that mixed up with.

Emperor Tippy
2007-02-04, 12:46 PM
Wizard//Monk with Kung-Fu Genius gets all good saves, 3/4ths BAB, Evasion, Int to AC, a speed boost, better HD, and has little mad.

The wizard's spell casting makes up for the monks sucky offense and the monk levels make the wizard much more survivable. And the only stat you need to pump for it is Int.

PinkysBrain
2007-02-04, 12:50 PM
Meh, survivable ... if you want survivable put warforged juggernaut on one side ;)

Thomas
2007-02-04, 12:55 PM
Frenzied Berserker/Fang of Lolth... as in taking one of each at every level?


A gestalt character can't combine two prestige classes at any level.

Morbo, does not work that way, vermin, etc.

mikeejimbo
2007-02-04, 01:54 PM
Monk//Barbarian

Yeah, I know that the alignments don't match up, but I've got a DM that rules that barbarians don't need to be chaotic. That would make this viable, with the extra speed from the monk and the barbarian, full BAB with flurry of blows, DR from the barbarian and AC bonuses from the monk, and you don't even need armor!

Rogue//Battle Sorcerer

Probably your DM won't allow variants in a gestalt campaign, but this basically makes you a bard, and then some. You can cast with no arcane failure in even medium armor, you retain your roguish abilities and all you would lose are some songs.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-02-04, 02:43 PM
The chaotic monk variant actually meshes better. They operate more or less like the regular monk, just with a cooler random flavor. Yes, I've used it in several gestalt combos :)

The Rogue//Battle Sorcerer sounds like it could have some excellent merit for a lower level cap gestalt game. I'll have to toy with it some time.

Were-Sandwich
2007-02-04, 02:43 PM
Fighter//Swordsage or Fighter//Warblade. The one thing ToB characters need is feats, and fighter gives them to them.

Jack_Simth
2007-02-04, 02:50 PM
Depends on what sources are available.

A few things to keep in mind for your final build:
1) At least 3/4 BAB, two good saves, d8 or better HD (this is a minumum; it's not too hard to get at least two of all good saves, full BAB, d10 or better HD).
2) One side pretty much needs to be a primary spellcaster (Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric, or Druid, for the Core classes) even if it's just for support for the main side (e.g., the Barbarian/Cleric who uses Clerical buffs to be a really good combatant).
3) You still only have one action per combat round. Pick a "primary" class that fills the role you want to fill (one of the classic four - Warrior, Healer, Skill Monkey, Mage) and a "secondary" class that supports it in some way (ideally with strong of passive defensive abilities, such as the Monk or Paladin, but a spellcaster for the primary Warrior or Skill Monkey).
4) Avoid MAD (this goes with the Primary/Secondary thing). The Sorcerer/Paladin needs Charisma (Spellcasting, saves) and Dex (AC - armored arcanist doesn't work so well), and con (but to a lesser extent due to the d10 HD) if he doesn't want to get into the thick of things. Charisma powers saves, healing, and spells. As a Primary Arcanist, it's great - you effectively lose the Paladin's armor proficency (can't cast in armor) and Smite (you really don't want to be in the thick of it without armor)
but makes a solid arcanist. The Paladin/Sorcerer has no more MAD than a normal Paladin - take Still Spell and spells without Somatic components, and focus on personal buffs on the Sorcerer side. Full armor in the thick of it. Non-core feats such as Ascetic Mage (for the Sorcerer/Monk - moves the Monk's Wis to AC to Cha to AC - you can drop Dex and Wis, needing only Cha and Con, in addition to other benefits) really help with this.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-02-04, 02:51 PM
I'd really reccomend the swordsage//fighter combo over the warblade//fighter combo, though. Swordsage compliments fighter with high skillpoints, high reflex and will saves, and it has the most (and arguably the best) maneuvers.

Desert Wind, Shadow Hand, and Setting Sun are really awesome schools, and are easily the best mage killers (force cage? Ha! Shadow Blink next to you, then full attack!)

Ramza00
2007-02-04, 03:14 PM
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31362
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1682906
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30145
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18609

TheThan
2007-02-04, 03:35 PM
Duskblade/cleric
All the way, probably the best fighter/caster hybrid I can think of

Though wizard/cleric comes close. But you need a feat to be able to wear armor and cast the wizard spells. But fortunately one exists.

nows7
2007-02-04, 03:54 PM
Favored Soul/Sorcerer for 6 levels, then switch to Monk (maybe fighter 2)/Mystic theuge. If you want to be realy obsene, i gues you could take the Astetic mage feat or use TOB, but I don't own that to offer any sugesstions, two levels of palidin would add in Cha to Saves as well

3/4 BAB (or more) Full arcane and divine spell casting, monk abilities, Cha to AC (and possibly to saves), all good saves (except -1 on reflex saves for palidin levels. Charisma is the primary stat, Dex and Wis are secondary.

I win. :)

Catharsis
2007-02-04, 04:38 PM
I particularly like the idea of Swashbuckler 3/Ranger//Beguiler. Make her a believer of Selūne, too. ;)

Favored Soul//Paladin sounds rather flavorful, too.

Dhavaer
2007-02-04, 04:39 PM
I've been wanting a Warblade//Psychic Warrior/Warmind. I don't have the Book of Nine Swords, though.

Legoman
2007-02-04, 04:44 PM
Clarify if your DM will let you gain more than one spellcasting level per character level.

In which case: Archmage/Incantrix/Wizard//Sorcerer/Ultimate Magus

Glass cannon? Yes.

9th level spells at level 13? Hells yes.

Dhavaer
2007-02-04, 04:46 PM
You can't get combo classes in Gestalt, so no Ultimate Magus.

Legoman
2007-02-04, 04:51 PM
Define Combo class?

Dhavaer
2007-02-04, 04:52 PM
Anything that combines two classes. So no Arcane Tricksters, Mystic Theurges or Ultimate Magi.

Rama_Lei
2007-02-04, 05:02 PM
Someone had to say it. Druid/Cleric. Heck yeah.
I like the Wizard/ Barbarian concept. Neither needs much armor, the barbarian brings a d12 and a way to be useful once your spells are out.

nows7
2007-02-04, 05:13 PM
Anything that combines two classes. So no Arcane Tricksters, Mystic Theurges or Ultimate Magi.

Dhavaer, I don't appriciate you're ruining my wonderful build. It was so beutiful... Time of death: 1:52 PM pacific standard Time...

I'll never forgive you for this....

Ok, Pal2//Monk2, Then take the Sor//Favored soul all the way up. You'll be two levels behind in casting, but you will get all those other nice defensive things. Alternativly, Sor 20//monk 2/pal 2/favored sould 16. Add in astetic mage, Get evasion, cha to AC and Saves, and such. I would be better if building at 20th level to only take one monk level and take te extra level in favored soul, for the nineth level spell... (or do favored souls get 9th level spells at 18th level...)

Meh, the point is Sorc// Favored soul. And Dhavaer is a jerk for ruining it for me...

Dhavaer
2007-02-04, 05:16 PM
So, how much XP do I get for killing that build? :smallbiggrin:

Ted_Stryker
2007-02-04, 05:16 PM
I like the Wizard/ Barbarian concept. Neither needs much armor, the barbarian brings a d12 and a way to be useful once your spells are out.
Or do some Arcane Strike action even before your spells run out, if you need to, in a pinch.

The Arcane Strike feat is even better when the arcane side of the Gestalt is a Sorcerer, since that class has a fairly limited spell selection. Forget casting spells with the Paladin/Sorcerer, just be a melee guy and buff with Arcane Strike. No worries about armor and arcane spell failure that way. This also works for a buffing Cleric, especially if the character is already going the Divine Metamagic route. Make the other side Sorcerer, and you have a Cleric of Doom with Arcane Strike from 6th level onwards.

TO_Incognito
2007-02-04, 05:24 PM
I wanted to try Tinker from the Warcraft Roleplaying Game and Wizard together. Wizard, plus 5738297498 skill points, a better BaB and hit dice, good reflex save, and neat technological device crafting.

I had a Monk/Cloistered Cleric once; but everyone knows that one.

Saph
2007-02-04, 05:35 PM
I've always liked the idea of Ranger//Wizard. Full BAB, full wizard spells, three good saving throws, huge skill points, and a d8 HD. When you want a REAL Arcane Archer, accept no substitute. :) You could probably solo most things with careful planning.

- Saph

Draz74
2007-02-04, 06:55 PM
As usual, I'd like to mention my favorite - an Int-based caster comboed with a Duelist/Swashbuckler. Beguiler is my favorite for flavor:

Rogue 3 / Swashbuckler 3 / Fighter 2 / Barbarian 2 / Duelist 10 // Beguiler 20.

I also liked a suggestion of Knight // Favored Soul that I once saw.

Monk//Divine caster X has been mentioned several times ... but Druid can also combine really well with Ninja! Weird flavor FTW! Wild Shape: Dire Bat! Cleric//Ninja isn't so good.

Fighter//Soulknife is pretty cool too. Or at least it was, before ToB classes added to the melee power creep so much. Maybe now Warblade//Soulknife is better.

Hamster_Ninja
2007-02-04, 07:23 PM
I remember Archivist/Artificer being mentioned as incredibly good. One main stat, plus the Artificer's ability to make any spell in the game as a divine scroll means your Arch side can learn and cast any spell in the game, among other things.

Zincorium
2007-02-04, 07:34 PM
Illumian (Aesh-Krau Sigil) Sorc 20//Monk 5/Survivor 5/Dragon Disciple 10

Slight MAD, but with Ascetic Mage, you can get a nice AC in addition to decent damage. And with the strength you can get with Dragon Disciple, bonus spells out the wazoo.

AtomicKitKat
2007-02-04, 10:43 PM
Yeah, I keep forgetting some of the PrC rules for Gestalt. No combo classes, no combining 2 in 1, etc. I wonder if it's possible to finish with multiple types though. That would be a cool goal. Like part construct, part undead, part dragon, part outsider, or something similar.

ringsnake
2007-02-04, 11:22 PM
Since some people seem confused, link to Gestalt character info (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm).

I'd go the same as for my favorite multi-class build. The Ascetic Warrior Monk, Ranger + Monk.

This gets neat at higher levels because you get access to the Ranger spells that'll improve your unarmed strikes and other Monk abilities. Greater Magic Fang plus favored enemy plus Ranger BaB plus ranger abilities that only work in light armor... Hee.

I am a little vague on whether the two weapon fighting benefits unarmed strikes or whether you have to be hanging onto a Quarterstaff.

The nice aspect of this is that it isn't an obvious grab for power, since you can point to any of a hundred HK martial arts movies for the archetype.

Zincorium
2007-02-04, 11:23 PM
Yeah, I keep forgetting some of the PrC rules for Gestalt. No combo classes, no combining 2 in 1, etc. I wonder if it's possible to finish with multiple types though. That would be a cool goal. Like part construct, part undead, part dragon, part outsider, or something similar.

Only thing I can see you being able to do via PRCs is combine undead (dread necromancer) with one of the PRCs that give you an new type at 10th level. Unfortunately, there's no way to include more than one of those in a single 20th level build without changing the 'no two PRCs at once' clause. Still, turning into a dragon then undead is very doable, and you might be able to squeeze your DM into giving you dracolich when you hit 20 after going all the way through dragon disciple.

On a side note, the only Gestalt game I've been in that went for entire campaign waived that rule, but instituted others for flavor. Was a lot of fun, we were able to challenge a lot of critters that would have normally wiped a three player group of our level.

AtomicKitKat
2007-02-05, 12:35 AM
I was thinking more like Dread Necromancer married with Dragon Disciple or Elemental Savant or Green Star Adept or Walker in the Waste. Granted, Dread Necromancer is apparently a very sucky class, but it's the only one I could remember offhand that changed into something other than the Monk's weakass Native Outsider(DR 20/magic. Riiight).

Darkshade
2007-02-05, 05:54 AM
Warlock//Monk works really well if you want to play Dragonball Z you can go into Tattooed Monk as well.
Fighter//Knight may not be super broken or anything but it is fun to play.
Fighter 20// Barbarian(bear totem)10/Bear Warrior10 = grappling GOD
Scout 20// Fighter4/Ranger1/Tempest5/Dervish20 = Full Attack, while moving, with Skirmish, and two scimitars, at no penalties.
Ninja 20// Fighter 10/ Weapon Master(Scythe)10 = really fun assassin
Rogue// Warlock = yes you can build Tuxedo Mask, seriously its fun to lay the charismatic magical rogue
Halfling WuJen // Ninja = you know that spell Giant Size? yeah that's right the minja turns into a giant super ninja, for no apparent reason other then the fact that it is awesome!
Dwarven Fighter//Cleric = hey I took the class Dwarf.
Elven Fighter/Arcane Archer//Wizard = pretty much anything involving a Gestalt archer is gonna get broken

Zincorium
2007-02-05, 07:29 AM
Optomization in gestalt, since it's based on the premise that more roles have to be covered with fewer people, tends towards 'covering all the bases'. You need to be cabaple of at least two party roles to really pull your weight. If you can excel at both those, then you have a successfully optomized character from my viewpoint. A review:


Warlock//Monk works really well if you want to play Dragonball Z you can go into Tattooed Monk as well.

Still low BAB and HD for a fighting class, horrible MAD, completely contradictory fighting styles. A lot of semi-nifty abilities, but no punch and poor versatility.


Fighter//Knight may not be super broken or anything but it is fun to play.

Not only is it not broken, it's a complete waste of gestalt. You're a knight with more feats, and you've pigeonholed yourself as a tank with no other talents.


Fighter 20// Barbarian(bear totem)10/Bear Warrior10 = grappling GOD

Bear warriors are cool, true. But, um, what else can you do? Right. Thought so.


Scout 20// Fighter4/Ranger1/Tempest5/Dervish20 = Full Attack, while moving, with Skirmish, and two scimitars, at no penalties.

Okay, now we're getting it. Good synergy, you can easily cover the melee damage dealer and skill monkey. Problem is you're bad at either math or typing, and I'm going to assume you meant 10 in Dervish. A better lead in is two levels of fighter and three of swashbuckler, one level of ranger doesn't even give you TWF. Oh, and take Tempest after Dervish, since you get one of the prerequisites for Tempest as a bonus. And using Rogue instead of Scout would let you pump profession early to extend Dervish dance, but it's not a bad choice overall.


Ninja 20// Fighter 10/ Weapon Master(Scythe)10 = really fun assassin

They, uh, invented the 'assassin' Prc for a reason. Weak overall, but no serious criticisms.


Rogue// Warlock = yes you can build Tuxedo Mask, seriously its fun to lay the charismatic magical rogue

Until combat. Of course, you weren't ever planning on drawing a weapon with this build, right? Shame on you if you do. Who needs weapons when they've got personality?


Halfling WuJen // Ninja = you know that spell Giant Size? yeah that's right the minja turns into a giant super ninja, for no apparent reason other then the fact that it is awesome!

On the dot with 'for no apparent reason', but the 'awesome' is more than a little subjective.


Dwarven Fighter//Cleric = hey I took the class Dwarf.

Don't touch anything. A PRC or two would be nice, but a solid class combo for what it does.


Elven Fighter/Arcane Archer//Wizard = pretty much anything involving a Gestalt archer is gonna get broken
Er, yes, by something else, but not in the overpowered sense. It works okay. And just okay. like the fighter/cleric dwarf, keep it around.

I'd apologize for the overly harsh criticism, but a lot of people have mentioned the stuff I'm saying, and Gestalt is supposed to be HARD. That's part of the allure, that you're tough enough to handle things way out of your league, and do it with style.

That Lanky Bugger
2007-02-05, 10:45 AM
Monk/Druid
While the class lacks a decent HD or BAB (a d8 with 3/4 progression in Gestalt is fairly low, afterall) it more than makes up for it with the synergy between the classes. Druidic Transformations allow the Monk to shift his stats as needed via transformations, and the all-good saves help quite a lot. The kicker is that it allows the Monk to pump Wisdom so that they can cast spells better AND pump their AC, and Monks go well with Druids to to the fact that neither relies on Armor much to begin with. The only problem is that the only alignment you can pick with this combination is Lawful Neutral, which some people might find limiting.

Barbarian/Rogue
Normally I wouldn't recommend two non-casters for any Gestalt, but this one just works well. The Barbarian makes the character's ability to go toe to toe with his foes pretty impressive, and the Rage allows him to deal a lot of damage. With another ally in the melee to allow flanking opportunities, this combination becomes a damage dealing fiend. By the RAW, I see no reason why Rage and Sneak Attack don't work together. This grants the party a skill monkey who also doubles as an effective front line combatant. The only real hole in the combination is the character's Will Save, which can be patched by taking Iron Will as a bonus feat AND taking the Slippery Mind rogue ability. If you've got a secondary front-line fighter, TWF for the added attacks might be an option to maximize the use of Sneak Attack.

Fighter or Barbarian/Wizard
Specifically for the ability, at higher levels, to use full attack actions while still being capable of using buffing spells. Quickened Haste to start the combat and then Quickened Fireball, anyone? Damage dealing with this combination can quickly reach levels which could be called ludicrous.

ringsnake
2007-02-05, 11:03 AM
It seems to me people are getting too fancy. There are such depths just in the SRD...

The actually good arcane archer:

First six levels Ranger/Wizard (or Sorcerer)
Next ten levels Arcane Archer/Wizard (or Sorcerer)
Last four levels Ranger/Wizard

Starting at the second level of Arcane archer you can be imbuing the arrows with fourth level spells instead of just first or second level spells, and that includes spells that can normally only be centered on the caster or that are range touch. The ranger powers are armor intolerant which is no big deal, and you can max out the Hide/Move Silently. There also appears to be no restriction on Imbue arrow, so you can imbue arrows with ranger spells.

The Highly Competant Assassin

First five levels: Ranger/Rogue
Next ten levels: [alternate ranger and rogue]/Assassin
Last five levels: Ranger/Rogue

This is obviously a villian build, and favored enemies should be PC races. This character can track and has loads of Sneak Attack dice and skill points. This is not a brute-in-your-face build, and in game play it might tick your players off to suddenly be told "Ok, you're walking through the forest and a few arrows hit you. Take 6d6 from each arrow and make a poison save."

The Blackest Guard

First six levels: Fighter(or fallen Paladin)/Cleric
Next ten levels: Cleric/Blackguard
Last four levels: Fighter/Cleric

Once it starts getting Blackguard levels it turns into a melee monster. Especially if it's built as a Miko, err Fallen Paladin. Slather on the right magic items and give it some allies and those poisoned sneak attacks backed up by Weapon Specialization and an handful of others has a lot of damage output. Again, a villian build.

Monkey See, Monkey Duelist

First six levels: Fighter/Monk
Next ten levels: Duelist/Monk
Last four levels: Fighter/Monk

Requires high INT and high WIS to exploit the AC bonuses from both Monk and Duelist. And oh goodness gracious me the Duelist can't use armor or a shield! The extra damage from Precise strike will work with Unarmed Strikes since it is a light weapon. Plus I always felt that Monks should get Acrobatic Charges!

Necrodancer

First seven levels: [Bard/Monk/Ranger/Rogue]/Wizard(Necromancer)
Next ten levels:Wizard(Necromancer)/Shadowdancer
Last three levels same as the first two.

Combines the shadow summoning with the necromancy spells for boosting it. For a more heroic character you can use some other specialty. There's also just the ability to Hide in Plain Sight and fling Silent Evocations. There are spells enough the lower the light as well. It'd work just as well or better with Cleric instead of Wizard levels.

pestilenceawaits
2007-02-05, 11:12 AM
My recent thought was a warblade20/ rogue3 swashbuckler17 with the daring outlaw feat for full Sneak attack with the swashbuckler good intelligence benefits for all classes. Full sneak attack use a finessable weapon. you would have some serious HP, good skill points bad will save but fort would rock and reflex would be insane with all the pluses to it.

Ramza00
2007-02-05, 11:12 AM
It seems to me people are getting too fancy. There are such depths just in the SRD...

The actually good arcane archer:

First six levels Fighter/Wizard (or Sorcerer)
Next ten levels Arcane Archer/Wizard (or Sorcerer)
Last four levels Fighter/Wizard

Starting at the second level of Arcane archer you can be imbuing the arrows with fourth level spells instead of just first or second level spells, and that includes spells that can normally only be centered on the caster or that are range touch.

Only take 2 lvls of Arcane Archer. The other abilities of the Arcane Archer can be simulated with Ranger Spells.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-05, 11:23 AM
Duskblade 13/Enlightened Fist 7//Warblade 20. Maneuvers, INT-synergy, duskblade casting, arcane channeling, ray holding, d12 HD, skill variety, casting in medium armor...

pestilenceawaits
2007-02-05, 11:25 AM
Duskblade 13/Enlightened Fist 7//Warblade 20. Maneuvers, INT-synergy, duskblade casting, arcane channeling, ray holding, d12 HD, skill variety, casting in medium armor...

This sounds quite nice where is the enlightened fist?

Saph
2007-02-05, 11:25 AM
The actually good arcane archer:

First six levels Fighter/Wizard
Next ten levels Arcane Archer/Wizard
Last four levels Fighter/Wizard

Isn't Ranger/Wizard better, at least for a few levels? That gives you lots more skill points and a good Reflex save. You can max out Hide and Move Silently and be the scout and the archer and the arcanist all at once, as well as being able to use a cure wand so that you're a backup healer, too.

- Saph

nows7
2007-02-05, 11:28 AM
What about Swashbukler 5/ Invisible blade 5/ duelist 10//Wizard 20?

Filling the Rouge and the arcane needs of the party, completly Int driven, with a low need for Dex and Cha.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-05, 11:31 AM
This sounds quite nice where is the enlightened fist?

Complete Arcane.

PinkysBrain
2007-02-05, 11:39 AM
Enlightened fist is of course a combination class and as such not allowed under default gestalt rules.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-05, 11:49 AM
Enlightened fist is of course a combination class and as such not allowed under default gestalt rules.

Uh, no it's not.

ringsnake
2007-02-05, 12:00 PM
Only take 2 lvls of Arcane Archer. The other abilities of the Arcane Archer can be simulated with Ranger Spells.

There's a ranger spell that simulates Phase Arrow, Hail of Arrows, and Arrow of Death? In what borken supplement is that crap?

Though I confess I totally brainfarted on the Ranger. I was thinking bonus feats and weapon specialist on the bow, which of course is not the point. Post amended.

Ramza00
2007-02-05, 12:10 PM
Hail of Arrows can be simulated Arrow Storm (Spell Compedium, where all the good archery spells are). There is one spell though I don't remember where that does Phase Arrow, Brilliant Energy Arrow is close but not the spell I am thinking of (Champions of Ruin, the other main archery spell book). By the time you can get Arrow of Death anybody can make that fort save.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-05, 12:12 PM
The Arrow of Death replacement is called "Finger of Death".

Mikal
2007-02-05, 12:17 PM
Sorcerer/Monk that eventually goes Duskblade/Enlightened Fist. Cheesy? Yes. Fun when you sacrifice 3 spells a round for +crapload-d-4's of extra damage along with bonuses to hit, as well as putting a spell effect on everyone you hit in a round? Very much so.

Or, if you want to be evil: Fighter/Barb into Fighter/FB into Fighter/Exotic Weapon Master into Fighter/Master Samurai into (if epic) Fighter/Warhulk.

EWM and MAster Samurai give you *3 str mod to damage when wielding a bastard sword two handed (provided you take uncanny blow with your EWM level), while War Hulk in epic levels gives you +2 Str per level, for free. (with the nasty +0 BaB negated by the automatic +1 Epic BaB every other level)

Catharsis
2007-02-05, 12:46 PM
Until combat. Of course, you weren't ever planning on drawing a weapon with this build, right? Shame on you if you do. Who needs weapons when they've got personality?
What's so bad about the Warlock/Rogue combo? Against sneak attackable foes, you get your level in d6 as unresistable, always-hit damage (except for SR, for which you will obviously take Vitriolic Blast). With Eldritch Chain, you can spread the hurt to several targets (it's not a volley, each subsequential hit is a new attack, so sneak damage applies, much as with Rapid Shot). Oh, and you can slap a debuff onto all targets for good measure. Did I mention the free invisibility, flight, tentacles, and dispelling?

And even against non-crittable foes, you can contribute more to a fight that the average rogue. And that's all aside from your two other roles as the irresistible party face and the skill monkey.

Indon
2007-02-05, 12:47 PM
Monk/Druid
While the class lacks a decent HD or BAB (a d8 with 3/4 progression in Gestalt is fairly low, afterall) it more than makes up for it with the synergy between the classes. Druidic Transformations allow the Monk to shift his stats as needed via transformations, and the all-good saves help quite a lot. The kicker is that it allows the Monk to pump Wisdom so that they can cast spells better AND pump their AC, and Monks go well with Druids to to the fact that neither relies on Armor much to begin with. The only problem is that the only alignment you can pick with this combination is Lawful Neutral, which some people might find limiting.


I'd like to add, I do believe monk/druids can elect to use their monk unarmed damage when wild shaped; and when wild shaped into a different sized animal, they would logically use unarmed damage as a monk of that size.

SpiderBrigade
2007-02-05, 12:54 PM
Monk/Druid
While the class lacks a decent HD or BAB (a d8 with 3/4 progression in Gestalt is fairly low, afterall) it more than makes up for it with the synergy between the classes. Druidic Transformations allow the Monk to shift his stats as needed via transformations, and the all-good saves help quite a lot. The kicker is that it allows the Monk to pump Wisdom so that they can cast spells better AND pump their AC, and Monks go well with Druids to to the fact that neither relies on Armor much to begin with. The only problem is that the only alignment you can pick with this combination is Lawful Neutral, which some people might find limiting.
My two cents on this (which is a v. good gestalt build, I agree) is that you'd be even better going Cleric 20//Monk 2/druid 18. With possibly some full-caster PRCs on one side, depending on what you want to do. I personally like Contemplative from Complete Divine, since you're getting BAB from spells, and those bonus domains are hot. You could also go for Master of Many Forms or another shapeshifting PRC on the druid side, instead.

Point being, you get the triple-Wisdom synergy of monk/druid/cleric, and the basic flurry (the to-hit penalty will be balanced by Divine Power etc), and you can wildshape into things with better damage.

If your DM is allowing you to completely unleash the cheese, have fun with cherrypicking your domains. Personally I'd suggest Strength and...Magic, maybe. That way you can be the fighter, and the cleric, and the wizard (sort of, anyway). Of course you could also go the Divine Metacheese route in which case the Planning domain looks better.

Catharsis
2007-02-05, 12:58 PM
What about Swashbukler 5/ Invisible blade 5/ duelist 10//Wizard 20?
No reason to take 5 levels of Swb, replace that with Swb 3/Ftr 2.


Filling the Rouge and the arcane needs of the party, completly Int driven, with a low need for Dex and Cha.
The party has no Rouge needs unless one of them is a noble or a prostitute.

SpiderBrigade
2007-02-05, 01:02 PM
Or a Khmer.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-05, 01:02 PM
The party has no Rouge needs unless one of them is a noble or a prostitute.

See Also: Deadly Dancer PrC, in Comp. Scoundrel.

tarbrush
2007-02-05, 01:14 PM
A new favourite of mine.

Druid 20//Rogue3/Swashbuckler3/Warshaper4/Master of Many Forms 10

No longer are you a giant bear that casts spells, you're pretty much 'any entry in a MM that casts spells'

And disarms traps as a side benefit.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-05, 01:20 PM
A new favourite of mine.

Druid 20//Rogue3/Swashbuckler3/Warshaper4/Master of Many Forms 10

No longer are you a giant bear that casts spells, you're pretty much 'any entry in a MM that casts spells'

And disarms traps as a side benefit.

That is rather nifty.

Rama_Lei
2007-02-05, 01:20 PM
I'd like to add, I do believe monk/druids can elect to use their monk unarmed damage when wild shaped; and when wild shaped into a different sized animal, they would logically use unarmed damage as a monk of that size.
Are for instance, a bears claw's, not considered weapons. I think there is a difference between natural weapon and unarmed strike.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-05, 01:23 PM
Are for instance, a bears claw's, not considered weapons. I think there is a difference between natural weapon and unarmed strike.

Yes. The bear's claws and bite are natural attacks. The bear's knee, backhand, and hip-check are unarmed strikes.

Rama_Lei
2007-02-05, 01:34 PM
Yes. The bear's claws and bite are natural attacks. The bear's knee, backhand, and hip-check are unarmed strikes.
So we have a giant bear who backhands and hip-checks people ? Greatest. Bear. Ever.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-05, 01:39 PM
So we have a giant bear who backhands and hip-checks people ? Greatest. Bear. Ever.

Yes. Yes it is.

That Lanky Bugger
2007-02-05, 01:46 PM
Alright, this is a down and dirty Gestalt build using core stuff only. I wouldn't actually use this in a game, but it's nice to consider as a theoretical idea.

Sneak Attack Cheese

Begin with Fighter/Rogue until level 5/5. Switch to Assassin/Rogue until level 10/15, then go back to Fighter/Rogue so you finish with the following:

Fighter 10
Assassin 10
Rogue 20

This leaves you with +15d6 Sneak Attack damage because the Assassin entry explicitly mentions that Rogue and Assassin SA dice stack. Add in the TWF feat tree and a pair of light weapons and you're looking at some real nasty damage.

Admittedly you lose out on roughly 20 Hp (10d6+10d10 HD as opposed to 20d10) and your BAB will suffer a hit of -3, but the damage potential on a successful Sneak Attack can't be ignored. On average, you'll be doling out 52.5 damage per shot with this nasty combination, and this doesn't even include weapon die damage. In theory with some decent to-hit bonuses, you can hit with two or three attacks on a full attack action.

If you want to take this to the extreme, you could take a lot of nasty feats with the 6 Fighter bonus feats which would let you really pump up the to hit on your character. I'm sure there are a few nasty feats out there in the splat books which would make this even "better".

Draz74
2007-02-05, 01:47 PM
Monk/Druid
While the class lacks a decent HD or BAB (a d8 with 3/4 progression in Gestalt is fairly low, afterall) it more than makes up for it with the synergy between the classes. Druidic Transformations allow the Monk to shift his stats as needed via transformations, and the all-good saves help quite a lot. The kicker is that it allows the Monk to pump Wisdom so that they can cast spells better AND pump their AC, and Monks go well with Druids to to the fact that neither relies on Armor much to begin with. The only problem is that the only alignment you can pick with this combination is Lawful Neutral, which some people might find limiting.

This is why I was suggesting using Ninja instead of Druid in this combo. (Or hey, with complete scoundrel, be mostly Ninja with a couple levels dipped in Monk, and take Ascetic Stalker. Then you still get the crazy unarmed damage.)

Still get to shift your stats around with Wild Shape as needed. Still have all-good saves, even though neither class does by itself. Still can pump Wisdom for spellcasting's sake, and get AC as a side benefit. Still don't need armor on either side. And -- your alignment restriction is gone! AND -- your Wisdom ALSO pumps your ki abilities! And you get Sudden Strike.

Shame that it still has that dumb 3/4 BAB.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-02-05, 01:55 PM
Wouldn't work, Lanky. There's a clear progression in sneak attack there, and in gestalt, you only get the highest progression of your two classes.

That Lanky Bugger
2007-02-05, 02:04 PM
Wouldn't work, Lanky. There's a clear progression in sneak attack there, and in gestalt, you only get the highest progression of your two classes.

Normally I'd agree with you, but it mentions explicitly that Rogue and Assassin SA dice stack. According to the RAW this is entirely legal.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-02-05, 02:14 PM
So does uncanny dodge, but it likewise doesn't work that way with gestalt. It only increases by the quickest progression on either half of your level board, never both at the same time. So long as the assassin's feature is clearly listed as sneak attack, it progress with one or the other. The stacking's only really relevant when you're not getting sneak attack from the rogue.

However, it doesn't say anything about other abilities that are like sneak attack and more or less act the same way. Sudden Strike might be a wise investment.

EDIT: Try this one- Rogue1/Scout4/Assassin10/Rogue5//Swashbuckler3/Fighter2/Ranger1/Duelist10/Ninja4. You absolutely need high intelligence, Combat Reflexes, Swift Ambusher (CS, to let Scout and Rogue levels stack for skirmish and sneak attack), Leap Attack and Spring Attack. What you do is hide around your target, apply poison to a light weapon (I suggest shortsword), study your target for three rounds, then combine leap attack and spring attack along with sneak attack, death attack, precise strike, skirmish, poison, insightful strike, and sudden strike for... well, make up a very big number. Finish it off by jumping back into some shadows at the end of the spring attack, hiding in plain sight, and generally making your DM frown.

ringsnake
2007-02-05, 03:12 PM
This isn't a tactical build, it's just a means of pushing a concept past all reason.

Aaaahnold

Race: Half-Orc, or some other race with STR boost. Costs one level in many cases.

First five levels: Barbarian/Sorcerer
Next ten levels: Barbarian/Dragon Disciple
Last five levels: Barbarian/Sorcerer

Of course this wants for an eighteen on strength, which starts us off at 20/24 with Rage. Once we reach fourth level you get Bull's Strength and a stat increase for 25/29, and when you get into Dragon Disciple that starts handing out STR boosts too.

If I'm counting right base STR at level sixteen is thirty-two before boosts from buff spells and rage is up to Greater Rage for +6 STR and CON. Oh, and he has wings and darkvision and a bite and claws. With Bull's Strength I think we're up to STR:42, so a +16 to hit and damage with melee on top of a +15 BAB and feats. At his base STR 600 pounds is a light load, 1400 pounds is medium load, and 1920 pounds is a heavy load.

He won't be casting more than second level spells for a long while, but that's not really the point. This character wouldn't have much more than CHA:12 anyway. If you're using points allocation he'd have to be dumber than a sack of rocks. It seems like it hits its stride early and keeps up with the more complicated builds.

There may be better classes to take than Sorcerer after the first few levels, but the fifth level of Sorcerer gets in an extra casting of buff spells, and at twentieth (as if!) you'll be getting fifth level spells. His CHA should be up to it after all those levels of Dragon Disciple.

Ikkitosen
2007-02-05, 03:21 PM
I've just made a Duskblade // Conjurer/Abjurant Champion gish-style character. Very good indeed - good BAB, 2 good saves, great spells with Quick Cast and Channeling working for both sets of spells. Lots of swift spells via this and the AbjChamp free quickening of abjurations. Abrupt Jaunt and Power/Leap Attack for lots of charging. Swift Disple Magic for bringing your opponents down a notch!

Anyhow, not as cheesy as cleric//druid or anything, but awesome nontheless.

Rama_Lei
2007-02-05, 03:22 PM
This isn't a tactical build, it's just a means of pushing a concept past all reason.

Aaaahnold

Race: Half-Orc, or some other race with STR boost. Costs one level in many cases.

First five levels: Barbarian/Sorcerer
Next ten levels: Barbarian/Dragon Disciple
Last five levels: Barbarian/Sorcerer

Of course this wants for an eighteen on strength, which starts us off at 20/24 with Rage. Once we reach fourth level you get Bull's Strength and a stat increase for 25/29, and when you get into Dragon Disciple that starts handing out STR boosts too.

If I'm counting right base STR at level sixteen is thirty-two before boosts from buff spells and rage is up to Greater Rage for +6 STR and CON. Oh, and he has wings and darkvision and a bite and claws. With just Bull's Strength I think we're up to STR:42, so a +16 to hit and damage with melee on top of a +15 BAB and feats.

He won't be casting more than second level spells for a long while, but that's not really the point. This character wouldn't have much more than CHA:12 anyway. If you're using points allocation he'd have to be dumber than a sack of rocks. It seems like it hits its stride early and keeps up with the more complicated builds.

There may be better classes to take than Sorcerer after the first few levels, but the fifth level of Sorcerer gets in an extra casting of buff spells, and at twentieth (as if!) you'll be getting fifth level spells. His CHA should be up to it after all those levels of Dragon Disciple.
What about Hulking Hurler (I think that's it) which adds 2 strength per level.
Also, cleric instead of sorcerer. Half-Orc's get no WIS penalty and clerics get great buffs (Bull's Endurance, Bull's Strength)

SpiderBrigade
2007-02-05, 03:32 PM
Rama Lei, you're probably thinking of Warhulk from the miniatures handbook, which has NO attack bonus, but instead gives, yes, 2 Str. per level. THis isn't something I'd thought about for Gestalt before, but now that you mention it...good GOD, y'all. Combine with full-BAB class on the other side...and then you still get the cool combat abilities that warhulk gets.

Of course, you can't use any Int, Wis, or Cha-based skills. Ever. So that might be a drawback.

Indon
2007-02-05, 03:34 PM
Of course, you can't use any Int, Wis, or Cha-based skills. Ever. So that might be a drawback.

So, go Barbarian. Almost no downside to raging.

Ramza00
2007-02-05, 03:38 PM
Rama Lei, you're probably thinking of Warhulk from the miniatures handbook, which has NO attack bonus, but instead gives, yes, 2 Str. per level. THis isn't something I'd thought about for Gestalt before, but now that you mention it...good GOD, y'all. Combine with full-BAB class on the other side...and then you still get the cool combat abilities that warhulk gets.

Of course, you can't use any Int, Wis, or Cha-based skills. Ever. So that might be a drawback.
Yes you can use them, you just don't have any ranks in them. It is just 1d20+Ability Modifier

So, go Barbarian. Almost no downside to raging.
The things you lose with warhulk also count for non encounter playing.

Indon
2007-02-05, 03:40 PM
Yes you can use them, you just don't have any ranks in them. It is just 1d20+Ability Modifier

The things you lose with warhulk also count for non encounter playing.

My point was, since you essentially can't use int/wis/cha based skills while raging, that downside becomes moot if you can't ever use them anyway.

But if it works the way you describe it, then I misunderstood. Nonetheless, barbarian seems very flavorful for a character who pumps his strength up to the point where he strips away most of his ability to, say, talk good.

SpiderBrigade
2007-02-05, 03:43 PM
Ohh, yeah, good catch Ramza. So if you don't put any points in those abilities in the first place, you're not losing much. And this is obviously only for a dumb combat-brute kind of build anyway.

The other problem is, you have to be large to even take the PRC. So you're going to be eating a Level Adjustment. Unless someone can convince me that Powerful Build counts for this...

Fax Celestis
2007-02-05, 03:53 PM
Ohh, yeah, good catch Ramza. So if you don't put any points in those abilities in the first place, you're not losing much. And this is obviously only for a dumb combat-brute kind of build anyway.

The other problem is, you have to be large to even take the PRC. So you're going to be eating a Level Adjustment. Unless someone can convince me that Powerful Build counts for this...

"You are treated as one size larger for all circumstances where it would be beneficial."

One would think this is beneficial, no?

Ikkitosen
2007-02-05, 04:04 PM
"You are treated as one size larger for all circumstances where it would be beneficial."

One would think this is beneficial, no?

That's not what it says unfortunately. RoS refers to size modifiers to opposed checks, whether creatures' special attacks work on it, and the size of weapons it can wield. Those are all of the areas in which Powerful Build has an effect.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-05, 04:06 PM
Then probably not.

Ted_Stryker
2007-02-05, 04:06 PM
The other problem is, you have to be large to even take the PRC. So you're going to be eating a Level Adjustment. Unless someone can convince me that Powerful Build counts for this...
A Permanent Enlarge Person should do the trick.

Ikkitosen
2007-02-05, 04:08 PM
You could just buy off your LA, of course.

Ramza00
2007-02-05, 04:15 PM
Half Ogre (RoD), Minotaur, Cenatur, Ogre, should all qualify.

Ramza00
2007-02-05, 04:18 PM
Note I would never play a Warhulk, just trying to help everybody else out.

Krimm_Blackleaf
2007-02-05, 06:20 PM
I like Beguiler//Rogue/Assassin.

Grizzled Gryphon
2007-02-05, 07:10 PM
Sorry guys, I haven't been around for this massivenumber of posts!!

I appreciate the build ideas, but I am just asking what everyone thinks is a cool gestalt combo. I am not, however, looking for any build ideas. I just like the idea, and this is a fun way to find out any I haven't thought of.

here is a nice one, by the way... Ranger/Warmage. I mean, 'sneaky' and 'explosives' go together like milk and cookies.

AtomicKitKat
2007-02-05, 08:46 PM
Bear Warrior can be qualified for at ECL 8. Sadly, a Black Bear is still only Medium Sized. If you took 5 levels, you qualify for Brown Bear, which is Large.

This puts you at ECL 12(7 to qualify, +5 levels Bear Warrior). You now have room for 8 levels of War Hulk. Personally, I've always felt it was a 4 level dip anyway(previously due to loss of BAB). Being able to hit 3 squares 4 times a round(5 with Haste) is usually more efficient than 4 whirlwinds a round(greater likelihood that you face a few enemies in a small arc/cone near you than surrounding you).

Goliath can still qualify. He just needs to take the Substitution Barbarian level that grants him the ability to go Large when Raging.

The Great Skenardo
2007-02-05, 09:15 PM
An exclusively-PHII combination is Dragon Shaman 20/Knight 20. This build is interesting because it provides you with everything you need to be Mr. Helpful on the battlefield: d12 HD, Heavy Armor Mastery, Draconic Auras, Touch of Vitality, plus all of the nice Wall abilities of the Knight. Essentially, you become the best friend of any ally withing 30 feet who would much rather the enemies weren't up in her fries.
Plus, you only need CHA, STR, and CON, which mesh perfectly with each other for the two classes.

Rama_Lei
2007-02-05, 10:30 PM
How about Halfling Rogue 20(Using substitution levels in RoW)/Ranger 11/ Fighter 9?
Full Bab and the substitution levels allow for ranged sneak attack. Your ranged sneak attacks are supplemented by the combat style (bow, obviously), and the plethora of feats as a fighter.

Darkshade
2007-02-06, 08:47 AM
Optomization in gestalt, since it's based on the premise that more roles have to be covered with fewer people, tends towards 'covering all the bases'. You need to be cabaple of at least two party roles to really pull your weight. If you can excel at both those, then you have a successfully optomized character from my viewpoint. A review:

that is a problem i see with a lot of people playing gestalt, IT DOES NOT HAVE TO BE ABOUT BEING SUPEPPOWERED, it can be about fun and versatility to, you dont always have to optimize everything.


Still low BAB and HD for a fighting class, horrible MAD, completely contradictory fighting styles. A lot of semi-nifty abilities, but no punch and poor versatility.

take a look at flee the scene and sun school

Rigeld2
2007-02-06, 09:07 AM
Warlock//Wizard. Staying Power+UMD+Crafting//The feats to power the crafting+Batman.

zomg you wouldnt have to take the mandatory 2 level chameleon dip!
Okay.. time for me to take some more medicine and go back to bed.

its_all_ogre
2007-02-06, 02:46 PM
What about Hulking Hurler (I think that's it) which adds 2 strength per level.
Also, cleric instead of sorcerer. Half-Orc's get no WIS penalty and clerics get great buffs (Bull's Endurance, Bull's Strength)

since when did clerics cast spontaneously?
which is a pre-req for dragon disciple.
dragon disiple in gestalt with sorcerer is a really good plan on one side with a full bab class on other(paladin ftw) those bonus spells can all be added into the highest slots available!
oh and charging smite paladin variant from phb2, combined with true strike and smiting spell(if you fancy it) gets very very nasty at low levels.

NullAshton
2007-02-06, 02:55 PM
War hulk adds 2 strength per level, in the Miniatures handbook. If I recall correctly, it needs a large size, and it gives +2 strength per level instead of +1 BAB. And that class shouldn't even be allowed in gestalt build, because of the whole being able to add +1 to BAB and +2 to strength bit...

Ramza00
2007-02-06, 03:05 PM
War hulk adds 2 strength per level, in the Miniatures handbook. If I recall correctly, it needs a large size, and it gives +2 strength per level instead of +1 BAB. And that class shouldn't even be allowed in gestalt build, because of the whole being able to add +1 to BAB and +2 to strength bit...

Why isn't that allowed in gestalt? I don't follow your logic.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-06, 03:35 PM
Why isn't that allowed in gestalt? I don't follow your logic.

He's not saying it's not, but that it shouldn't, because with something like Fighter//Warhulk, you can get (effectively) +2 BAB/level.

Zincorium
2007-02-06, 05:26 PM
He's not saying it's not, but that it shouldn't, because with something like Fighter//Warhulk, you can get (effectively) +2 BAB/level.

Not...exactly, but a fairly accurate description. When it becomes broken are is when the character can apply more of their strength bonus to damage (Uncanny blow ability of exotic weapon master, multiple arms, etc.) or can use that additional strength to offset power attacking for their full BAB.

Ramza00
2007-02-06, 05:36 PM
He's not saying it's not, but that it shouldn't, because with something like Fighter//Warhulk, you can get (effectively) +2 BAB/level.
Base Attack Bonus, is very different than Attack Bonus. BAB gives iterative attacks, Attack Bonus Doesn't


Not...exactly, but a fairly accurate description. When it becomes broken are is when the character can apply more of their strength bonus to damage (Uncanny blow ability of exotic weapon master, multiple arms, etc.) or can use that additional strength to offset power attacking for their full BAB.
Yes, but they still have to deal with the fact they are large size (thus can't enter a lot of dungeons) and they still have to deal with the No Thought penalties. If a person wants to play a warhulk as a DM I would make sure they deal with some encoutners/situations (not all but enough to challenge them and cause them to reconsider) that takes advantage of the fact they are large size, is consider a "freak according to society" (similar to how Ur Priests are hated by Churches), and are very stupid and can't make a good spot check.

--------------------------------------------

Seriously though why would you want to do the warhulk in gestalt? You can get similar strength bonuses with the Bear Warrior while also getting bonuses to con, and some dex, while not having to deal with the annoying no thought part of warhulk.

soylentplaid
2007-02-06, 07:54 PM
Here's one I'm running right now. Fighter/Psion. At 6th level I switch to Fighter/Metamind, then alternate Fighter and Psion and take Metamind levels. (7th psion/metamind, 8th fighter metamind, etc.) At 15th level, full BaB, decent Fort, full Will, and most importantly, full manifester progression and power list. By 18th level I'll not only have Font of Power, but 9th level powers. I'll be a mini-god!

Also, he carries a scythe, but that's just because I wanted to be different.

Rei_Jin
2007-02-07, 01:07 AM
Ye gods, you just reminded me that horrible build.

Metamind with full manifesting powers....

OUCH.

AtomicKitKat
2007-02-07, 01:55 AM
Clerics can cast cure spells without preparation, just not Arcane spells. :P

The_Snark
2007-02-07, 02:18 AM
I've got a couple interesting ones.

The first involves the Frenzied Berserker, and figuring out that age-old problem of how not to annihilate your allies. The build runs: Barbarian 6/Frenzied Berserker X//Telepath 5/Thrallherd 1/Telepath X-1.

Order your thralls and servants to remain close and guard you during combat. Taa-daa, you've got a replaceable buffer of minions between you and your friends. Avoid the Great Cleave feat, and it should give you plenty of time to recover from your berserk rage. And none of the minions will last long enough to catch on anyway.

The second uses the beguiler (or warmage, or dread necromancer, but those are thematically kinda weird) and the Rainbow Servant. The Rainbow Servant gives the ability to cast spells from domains, and eventually caps by giving access to the whole cleric spell list. The beguiler and its companion specialty spellcasters have the ability to cast any spell on their list spontaneously. Normally, the Rainbow Servant kinda hurts by losing some caster levels, but gestalt solves that too.

Ninja Chocobo
2007-02-07, 04:26 AM
Warhulk//Hulking Hurler.
Throw the universe at people. Get it enchanted with Returning first, though.

Grizzled Gryphon
2007-02-07, 07:41 AM
I found an excerpt on the Wizards site with the warhulk class all spelled out in it. It has everything you need to play the class, with the level progression, and everything.

Except the No Thought feature. They forgot to include what, exactly, that is.

I have to admit, an adaptation on this class where you don't get all the str bonuses and the (probably) No Thought feature, give it a full bab, and this could be a nice class.

So, what, exactly, is No Thought?

Rigeld2
2007-02-07, 07:55 AM
Its actually No Time To Think (Ex), and it says that the character is treated as having 0 ranks in all Int, Wis, and Cha skills, with the exception of Intimidate, which acts normally.

Ikkitosen
2007-02-07, 08:11 AM
Warhulk//Hulking Hurler.
Throw the universe at people. Get it enchanted with Returning first, though.

This is Very Funny.

Rigeld2
2007-02-07, 08:12 AM
Cause its true.

Enzario
2007-02-07, 10:33 AM
Beguiler//Sorcerer

Monster's point of view:
Man in black jumps out of shadows and casts fireball.
You and your five buddies all die.
Where'd he go?

Grizzled Gryphon
2007-02-07, 09:05 PM
Beguiler//Sorcerer

Monster's point of view:
Man in black jumps out of shadows and casts fireball.
You and your five buddies all die.
Where'd he go?

Does that make it the perfect class for a "Men in Black" game?

Wow, that was just... bad. Sorry for subjecting you all to that.

Arceliar
2007-02-07, 09:39 PM
Ninja/Rogue = ... lets just say your enemies don't want to get caught flat footed.

Particularly deadly if you're a Pixie.

Catharsis
2007-02-08, 06:46 AM
Beguiler//Sorcerer
Monster's point of view:
Man in black jumps out of shadows and casts fireball.
You and your five buddies all die.
Where'd he go?
That would work better with Warlock//Sorcerer. They use the same stats, and the Warlock is perfect for that Flee the Scene/Invisibility thing.