Infinite feats? Dark Chaos Shuffle + Otyugh Hole

[TeslaJr]

For those who don't know, the Dark Chaos Shuffle is a method where you use the spell Embrace the Dark Chaos from Fiendish Codex 1 to switch out one of your normal feats for an Abyssal Heritor feat, and then use the spell Shun the Dark Chaos, also from Fiendish Codex 1, to switch out one of your Abyssal Heritor feats for a normal feat that you qualify for. An Otyugh Hole is a magical location from Complete Scoundrel that allows you to gain one of four bonus feats for the cost of 3000gp. Now, my question is: if you were to spend a week in an Otyugh Hole and gain a bonus feat, then use the Dark Chaos Shuffle to switch it out for whatever feat you want, would you be able to go back and repeat the process, ad infinitum?

[Phelix-Mu]

Maybe this might work in the cheesiest of TO or a DM that is up for the craziest DCS and fusion-astral seed suicide chaining. It depends on the precise wording of Otyugh Hole and whether Magical Location rules say they are repeatable. I was under the impression that there was a limit on how many times someone could benefit from a magical location, but I honestly haven't looked at it lately. Beware flying books if you try to use this at an actual table, though.

[ryu]

Maybe this might work in the cheesiest of TO or a DM that is up for the craziest DCS and fusion-astral seed suicide chaining. It depends on the precise wording of Otyugh Hole and whether Magical Location rules say they are repeatable. I was under the impression that there was a limit on how many times someone could benefit from a magical location, but I honestly haven't looked at it lately. Beware flying books if you try to use this at an actual table, though.

He's not kidding. The people there won't even be throwing them. The books themselves will get angry and grow wings.

[TeslaJr]

Ha, yeah! If I tried to actually do this my DM might stab me. It was meant as more of a thought experiment then anything.

[ryu]

Ha, yeah! If I tried to actually do this my DM might stab me. It was meant as more of a thought experiment then anything.

Do not joke about that subject here. It has precedent.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You could just skip the Otyugh Hole and use the spell Heroics instead. When Heroics ends you lose the feat it granted, but if you no longer have the feat it granted when it ends you don't lose anything.

It's not exactly infinite though, considering the xp cost of Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos.

[Magikeeper]

Either the shuffle maintains feat associations, or it does not. The RAW is unclear in this regard.

If it does not, then there are many ways to shuffle for as many feats as you want. Using Otyugh Hole isn't even optimal in such a game.

If it does, then DCS + Otyugh Hole does not grant infinite feats, since you can't use it to gain multiple feats in the first place and whatever feat you shuffle in is still filling the "Granted by Otyugh Hole" feat slot.

I highly recommend ruling that associations are maintained.

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More on the RAW:

Embrace says the heritage feat "replaces".
Shun the dark chaos says it "removes and replaces".

I do not believe the exact meaning, with regards to D&D mechanics, of 'replaces' with regard to feats (or a similar resource, like skills) is ever specified. It is possible to argue it both ways, although I favor DCS feats keeping any and all associations.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Either the shuffle maintains feat associations, or it does not. The RAW is unclear in this regard.

If it does not, then there are many ways to shuffle for as many feats as you want. Using Otyugh Hole isn't even optimal in such a game.

If it does, then DCS + Otyugh Hole does not grant infinite feats, since you can't use it to gain multiple feats in the first place and whatever feat you shuffle in is still filling the "Granted by Otyugh Hole" feat slot.

I highly recommend ruling that associations are maintained.

--------
More on the RAW:

Embrace says the heritage feat "replaces".
Shun the dark chaos says it "removes and replaces".

I do not believe the exact meaning, with regards to D&D mechanics, of 'replaces' with regard to feats (or a similar resource, like skills) is ever specified. It is possible to argue it both ways, although I favor DCS feats keeping any and all associations.

There's no such thing as a 'feat slot' in the RAW, nor in the RAI, this is completely made up. If that were the case, then there would be mention of it in the rules, yet there is not. Feat acquisition may be restricted to a certain list, such as Fighter bonus feats or metamagic feats, but once a feat is gained you simply have it, free of restriction. It doesn't occupy a 'slot' on your character sheet like it's a magic item, you simply have a feat. I've been over this with you before, yet you continue willfully spreading this misinformation.

Certain mechanics which allow feats to be replaced, namely Psychic Reformation or the retraining rules in PH2, specifically require you to replace existing feats with legal choices that could have been selected when that feat was acquired. Thus any newly gained feat carries the same limitations as the one it replaced, but this is specific to those mechanics and not a general rule. Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos carry no such limitation, and even have the capability to replace a feat of a given type: "This Abyssal heritor feat replaces one feat of the subject’s choice that it already possesses. The replaced feat need not have been an Abyssal heritor feat." A Ranger can replace Track with an Abyssal Heritor feat, and then Shun the Dark Chaos can remove that abyssal heritor feat and replace it with, "any other feat for which the subject qualifies (except an Abyssal heritor feat)." Note that it does not carry any restrictions whatsoever, other than you must qualify for the feat gained, and it cannot be another abyssal heritor feat.

[Cruiser1]

There's no such thing as a 'feat slot' in the RAW, nor in the RAI, this is completely made up. It doesn't occupy a 'slot' on your character sheet like it's a magic item, you simply have a feat.
Actually, the term "feat slot" is used in various places in the books, even in the context of feats changing. For example, in PHB2 we have the rules:

"Retraining involves small-scale changes to your character, such as reallocation of feat slots and skill ranks." (page 192)

Also, if "your character no longer qualifies for a feat she already has, she loses access to the feat, as well as to any others for which it is a prerequisite. However, the feat still occupies a feat slot." (page 198)

There's even a SRD reference: Search for "feat slot" on http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spontaneousMetamagic.htm

[Magikeeper]

Embrace says the heritage feat "replaces".
Shun the dark chaos says it "removes and replaces".


Again, there is nothing that describes what replaces means. Nothing, nowhere, there simply is not something that defines what was meant by that with regards to the D&D rules. Feel free to prove me wrong. Anyway, I don't recall ever stating that there is a smoking gun noting that associations are kept, because there isn't one. I have noted - here and elsewhere - that keeping them solves problems. There is no RAW directly specifying what happens here, there is no precedent. As you noted, all the other abilities that do this have additional restrictions. Although, again, if such a precedent exists please tell me about it.



Actually, where does it say that once you have a feat you have it "free of restriction"? I'm arguing from the position of "The rules don't cover this, I seriously recommend ruling it ~this~ way for reasons XYZ". All you have to do is give RAW proof that associations are definitely not kept. I.E., show the unambiguous smoking gun.

[Adverb]

It seems cheaper to create the demiplane of gaining infinite feats.

[Icewraith]

Not compared to the cost of being sent to the demiplane of infinite thrown books.

[Mithril Leaf]

It seems cheaper to create the demiplane of gaining infinite feats.

Even cheaper is having a familiar for most practitioners of the DCFS.

[Yael]

I will be seen like a total newbish player for asking what I'm about to ask, but where's the Otyugh Hole located (sourcebook)?

Seems like a good idea to take a look at its properties, also my Elven Wizard already did the Embrace the Dark Chaos + Shun the Dark Chaos combo, maybe it won't work again?

[CIDE]

I will be seen like a total newbish player for asking what I'm about to ask, but where's the Otyugh Hole located (sourcebook)?

Seems like a good idea to take a look at its properties, also my Elven Wizard already did the Embrace the Dark Chaos + Shun the Dark Chaos combo, maybe it won't work again?


OP says it. Complete Scoundrel.

[Yael]

OP says it. Complete Scoundrel.

Nice one, thank you.