Gnome wizard! (IM BORED AND COULD USE PEOPLE TO BOUNCE IDEAS OFF OF)

[Drake2009]

Ok so my group is restarting soon... kind of stinks cause we haven't finished the first campaign but the bard doesn't like being a bard. So ima be a gnome wizard, we are doing a campaign with loads of undead so illusions probably aren't a good idea. I've figured that im gonna be a mystic theurge in the later levels so i figure highest stats in intelligence and wisdom,probably dex too.

He might have to tank a little, you know using the mage armor and shield spells. probably not of course but i like to be ready. Dump stat is charisma. Not sure what else...

Any ideas? I like to have people to talk to when i think so thats why i love this forum so much, Nerds are the nicest people around!

[Slipperychicken]

Gnomes make for great Wizards. Con boost, small size, and a penalty to a dump stat. The 20ft move speed isn't sexy, but we have ways to get around that.

One way to take advantage of your size (and mitigate your move speed) is to ride a medium-sized mount (such as a pony, dire weasel, or giant bee) so you can have the mount take move actions while you cast. With an easy Concentration check, you can cast mid-movement, or even make the mount double-move or run while you cast. Combine this extreme maneuverability with carefulness (i.e. sit behind a wall, pop out to cast a spell, go back behind the wall), and you should very rarely have to deal with attack rolls against you. Mounted Combat isn't necessary, but Wild Cohort (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) will keep the mount beefy by scaling its hit points.

Wizard stats typically go like this: Intelligence (at least 15) > Con (ideally 14+, but can scrape by with 12) ~ Dex > Wis > Cha > Strength. You can safely dump strength, charisma, and even wisdom if you need to. Dexterity is useful, but not essential. Constitution is essential, as is Intelligence. Obviously, wisdom becomes more of a priority if you need it to cast more spells.

Gnome wizards are not restricted to illusion spells. You can still cast all the buffs and CC which form the staple of 3.5 wizard spell lists, and those are just as useful against undead as they are against any foe. Depending on interpretation, however, illusions can potentially be devastating against undead (for example, if undead will observe illusory walls but not attempt to move through them).

[Doc_Maynot]

Gnome is also a requirement for Shadowcraft Mage. A particularly fun class.

[Drake2009]

Cool! Honestly i think i was dreaming when i wanted to tank... but yeah thats great advice! hmm riding a weasel casting fireballs that torch hoards of undead...

[NoACWarrior]

For more fun if you can convince your DM that the scout can serve as your mount and you take the mounted combat feat you might get away with casting spells while riding him.

Then again there's Greater Disk and levitation - who needs physical movement when the baddies can't actually touch you.

But back to gnomes, they are fun to have around and make pretty fun wizards - also they make hilarious crazy wizards who can get away with being utterly insane.
I just can't stay mad at them after the nuke an orphanage, unlike the stupid elf sorcerer who explodes a bar. :smallwink:

[Drake2009]

anyone know where i can find a hummingbird familiars stats? never seen them anywhere...

[Forrestfire]

Dragon #323, iirc. It gives +4 to initiative as its bonus.

[Drake2009]

Awesome! now.... can anyone help me find dragon magazine? i cant find it! sorry im super nooby...

[Forrestfire]

Dragon Magazines are for sale on the Paizo website (http://paizo.com/products/btpy7ye5?Dragon-Issue-323) as well as Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Dragon-Magazine-323-Deadly-Domains/dp/B000W2F178) and other sites, generally, and that's all I can ethically suggest.

In any case, the familiar in question uses the stats of a thrush, from the DMG, other than the fact that it grants +4 to initiative.

[nedz]

Instead of Theurging: Play a Gnome Beguiler, take Arcane Disciple a few times for the anti-undead spells etc., go into Shadowcraft mage if you wish.

[John Longarrow]

Drake2009
I'd suggest Whisper Gnome. -2 to cha gives you a +2 to dex, 30' move, darkvision, really sneaky, and innate magice. Big things are the boost to dex, speed 30, and darkvision. Great when you need to move around and you DON'T want to attract attention!

For build, I happen to like mixing in a level of something melee-ish, so that you can grab levels in Dragon Slayer and Abjurant Champion easier. Say, LVL 1, 4, and 7 in Crusader (with 2/3, 5/6 wizard). You loose some casting but gain a LOT of durability. Also really fun to have the little gnome running around with a GREAT SWORD cleaving... :-)

[Drake2009]

Cool! Just so you know i dont really like the big complicated multiclassing.

[Mithril Leaf]

I'm a fan of the arcane, tinker, and (some sort of farmer gnome from races of ansalon). If you can get any gnome without a wisdom penalty and with an intelligence bonus, that'd be ideal. If you don't mind being a bit evil you want to take Shadow Weave Magic and a level of Shadow Adept for bonus metamagic to fuel your arcane thesis. This is assuming a Shadowcraft Mage.

[John Longarrow]

Drake2009
I'd also suggest looking at Effegy master. Make your own minions on the cheap!
What could be more gnomish than that???

[Drake2009]

Wait, can you ride dire weasels? in pathfinder?

[Dorian Gray]

If you're playing pathfinder, unless your group also uses 3.5 material, you won't be able to go the shadowcraft mage route. Which is a pity, because shadowcraft mage made gnome wizards able to cast any spell, ever, without preparing anything except illusions.
That being said, essentially all you have to do is get some method of flight (levitate is a 2nd level spell) or movement control and snipe from out of enemy range.

[Drake2009]

i dont like complicated stuff lol... im still going with the whole mystic theurge

[Drake2009]

Though i am going to try and get a SUPER HIGH initiative. With familiars, improved init. a good dex and nerveskitter i can get a 17 without spending a dime... Even higher if i use magical items!

[Dorian Gray]

i dont like complicated stuff lol... im still going with the whole mystic theurge

Mystic Theurge is a bad idea. No, a Bad Idea, with capital letters. It's a classic example of a class that looks and sounds really cool, but in actuality fails to deliver. You end up losing 2 spell levels for both classes- basically, when a wizard would be getting the orb of x spells, you get... acid arrow. Since a max level wizard spell usually can clear an encounter on its own or with one other spell (glitterdust, grease, thankyewverymuch), it's usually better to just try and grab the more powerful spells and not worry about volume.

[Drake2009]

... Any other ideas then? cause we dont have a cleric anymore and im the only wizard...

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

... Any other ideas then? cause we dont have a cleric anymore and im the only wizard...

In that case, make a Druid. They get just as much firepower as a Wizard, and even get to Turn Undead better than a single-classed Cleric (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a). Put Unguent of Timelessness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#unguentofTimelessness) on your Bone Talisman (Turning) spell foci so it lasts 365 times longer, and they can be reused indefinitely and the unguent never wears off.

Alternatively, go with something that can use Command Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/commandUndead.htm), and the first time you encounter powerful mindless undead will be the last time you encounter powerful mindless undead.

Yet another alternative would be a (Cloistered) Cleric with the Sun domain, plan on getting ten levels of Morninglord in PGtF over your career, and five levels of Radiant Servant in CD asap. Your domain from Radiant Servant should be Glory, and your items should include an Ephod of Authority, Rod of Defiance, Phylactery of Undead Turning, Scepter of the Netherworld, Circlet of Persuasion (adapted to a Mask), Reliquary Holy Symbol, Night Sticks, etc. If your other domain is Healing and you get the spontaneous domain casting ACF in PH2 for that all your spontaneously cast healing spells will benefit from Radiant Servant's empowered healing, instead of just those cast from your domain slots.

[Drake2009]

Ahh i see so if i use DMA and the GHM and then get a BLT and eat that....:smalleek:.. I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE SAYING! *sobs in a corner* me no like complicated thingies! Let me show you a role model of mine... :elan: and of course:roach: :smalltongue: Seriously though, as said in a comment earlier. please no complicated thingies! Me no understand your big words and Ack-ro-nims!

Edit: you should note that i just found the other faces like elan and the roaches so...

[Drake2009]

So....ive got about a week to figure this character out! i seriously need help. We lost our cleric and im the only wizard so i think mystic theurge is the best idea!

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

What level are you starting at, and what level do you expect to reach?

[Inevitability]

Mystic Theurge is a bad idea. No, a Bad Idea, with capital letters. It's a classic example of a class that looks and sounds really cool, but in actuality fails to deliver. You end up losing 2 spell levels for both classes- basically, when a wizard would be getting the orb of x spells, you get... acid arrow. Since a max level wizard spell usually can clear an encounter on its own or with one other spell (glitterdust, grease, thankyewverymuch), it's usually better to just try and grab the more powerful spells and not worry about volume.

If you go Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Threurge, than indeed, it is a bad idea.

However, the Precocious Apprentice feat will help us out here.
Start as a cleric. At level 1, take magical training. You now have an arcane caster level. This qualifies you for taking Precoscious apprentice (use a flaw, or be a human), which gives us a 2nd level spell once per day. (Animate Dead is my preferred one)
It has one drawback, you need to succeed on a DC 8 caster level check to actually cast the spell. Fortunately, we don't care about that, since we aren't reliant on the spell.

Once you hit level 4, take one level in wizard. You are now a cleric 3/wizard 1, who can cast both 2nd level arcane and divine spells.

Next level, become a Mystic Theurge. You'll now be advancing both your cleric and wizard levels. That means that once you complete the class, you'll have 13th level cleric casting, and 11th level wizard, while your ECL is only 14.

Some issues the DM could have with this:

-'You can't 100% sure cast the spell, so it doesn't qualify you!'
This is solved by another feat. Arcane Mastery lets us take 10 on caster level checks, so we can now 100% sure cast it.

-'You need to be high enough level to actually cast those spells!'
No, we don't. Reread your books please. We fulfill all requirements for the class.

-'You can't take flaws in my game, so away with that feat!'
This doesn't really affect the build. Just be a human, and you're good to go.

EDIT: Or go with Druid/Wizard, and put Arcane Hierophant on top of that.
9th level arcane + 9th level divine spells. AW YEAHHHH

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you go Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Threurge, than indeed, it is a bad idea.

However, the Precocious Apprentice feat will help us out here.

RAW Precocious Apprentice doesn't allow you to qualify for anything early, but a Cleric 1/ Bloodline 1/ Wizard 1 with Sanctum Spell can jump into Mystic Theurge, and that Bloodline level doesn't count toward your character level when determining how much xp you get per encounter.


I still think he should just go Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) 5/ Morninglord 1/ Radiant Servant 5/ Morninglord 9 for his build. Start with the Sun, Healing, and Knowledge domains, trade your ability to spontaneously convert prepared spells into Cure spells for the ability to spontaneously convert prepared spells into spells from the Healing domain, via the alternate class feature in Player's Handbook 2 page 37. Start with two flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) (more here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?258440-The-quot-Best-quot-Flaws#30)) that won't have much of a drawback, such as Love of Nature and Weak-Willed, to have two extra feats. Get Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, and Divine Metamagic in Complete Divine for Persistent Spell. Take Improved Turning at 3rd level and Extra Turning at 6th to qualify for the prestige classes. Divine Metamagic allows you to spend seven Turn Undead uses to make a spell Persistent so it lasts 24 hours, use that with Mass Lesser Vigor in Spell Compendium so the whole party has Fast Healing 1. Radiant Servant gives you an additional domain at its 5th level, which should be the Glory domain.

Try to get the following items:
Rod of Defiance, Magic Item Compendium p56, 7,312 gp, undead within 30 ft. are treated as 4 HD lower for purposes of Turn/Rebuke Undead.
Ephod of Authority, Magic Item Compendium p215, 800 gp, you count as one level higher for Turning Undead.
Reliquary Holy Symbol, Magic Item Compendium p120, 1,000 gp, with the above feats you'll get an extra three uses of Turn Undead per day.
Scepter of the Netherworld, Magic Item Compendium p183, 9,000 gp, you count as three levels higher for Turning Undead.
Nightstick, Libris Mortis p78, 7,500 gp, you get an extra four uses of Turn Undead per day.
Phylactery of Undead Turning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#phylacteryofUndeadTurning), DMG, you count as four levels higher for Turning Undead.
Circlet of Persuasion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#circletofPersuasion), DMG, but adapted to be a mask and take up the face item spot, you get a +3 bonus to all Cha-based checks including Turn Undead checks.

The Sun domain gives you Greater Turning, so any undead that would be turned are instead destroyed when using it. Radiant Servant gives you Extra Greater Turning, which basically allows you to use that your normal number of Turn Undead times each day instead of only once each day.

Let's say you're 7th level with just the Rod of Defiance and Ephod of Authority. You count as a (7 levels + 1 improved turning + 1 ephod of authority) = 9th level Cleric when Turning Undead, and any undead within 30 ft. are counted as though each was 4 HD lower. Let's say you're fighting a Greater Shadow (CR 8) and three Ghasts (CR 3 each), which would be an EL 9 encounter (an encounter appropriate for a 9th level party, when you're 7th level). The Rod of Defiance makes the Greater Shadow count as 7 HD, and it makes the Ghasts count as 2 HD each. Let's say you have Cha 12, and roll a 3 on that 1d20 for your turning check, getting a result of Cleric Level -2 for the highest HD undead you can turn. You still get to affect every undead creature present with that. You roll turning damage of 2d6+10, so if you roll a 1 and a 2 on those 2d6 you still get to turn every undead creature present. Since you were using a Greater Turning, all of those opponents are automatically destroyed. You just wiped out an encounter suitable for a 9th level party in a single round as a 7th level character.

[Inevitability]

RAW Precocious Apprentice doesn't allow you to qualify for anything early.

Where does it state this? If it's the customers service's answer, then please realise that the CS is not a viable source of information.

[Drake2009]

starting at level 1 and hoping to probobly get really high level ( 17 or something)

[John Longarrow]

Drake,
if you don't like complicated stuff, don't play a wizard. Spell casters in general get really complicated really quickly as you need to prep your spells to match what you expect to encounter. This gets much more complicated when you start mixing in persona/party buffs, summon spells, and area affect spells.

A complicated build for the character should give you a good set of options in game that can be used in most cases.
A simple character that needs to track spells (plus components), their durations, and their effects gets really complicated during combat.

About your best option to get the feel of a mystic theurge without going through all the complexity of spell selection would be to play a psion. You can heal, you can blast. Much easier to track, and you don't loose out on high end power.

[Drake2009]

Drake,
if you don't like complicated stuff, don't play a wizard.

I dont like complicated builds, also ive been a wizard and its pretty easy for me. I figure that im going to try the mystic theurge because what the heck? it could be cool so i want to try it. We are going up against undead but there will be other things.

[morkendi]

Most fun character i have had was a whisper gnome deviner that entered shadowcraft mage. No the best entry into scm, but worked very well. Malconvoker was pretty fun as well. The malconvoker was in a undead heavy campaign. Fun to send your demon army against the undead one.

[DMVerdandi]

Have you thought about using an archivist?
It is like a divine wizard who casts off of the cleric list as the main list, and can learn any other divine spell through adding spells to their prayerbook.

Best and most efficient way to do this is by hiring other divine casters and using aid another for scribing scrolls. Then simply add desired spell to spell book. This is the way that hardly needs your DM since most divine classes know all of their spells. Domain spells may be harder to gain, but for the most part, use downtime to find and learn from other divine spell casters.

Most wizard spells are already covered in other classes, and those that aren't usually aren't truly necessary.

Pick up Aureon's Spellshard for easy, cheap, and durable scribing.

[ericgrau]

If you're afraid you might take a hit then false life is great on top of mage armor. As does a lesser rod of extend spell for both. Shooting for 8 hours and then 24 hours will avoid surprises. Shield prevents you from taking out foes round 1 which is quite painful. But you can get it on a couple scrolls for next to nothing so if you ever have extra time before a fight begins then you can cast it.

For undead halt undead and wall of fire are quite good. As are a lot of the standard spells that they aren't immune to. To survive the painful levels 3-7 try web, command undead and levitate. For levels 3-5 flaming sphere is ok too. For levels 6-7 close wounds is quite nice. Or 24 hour false life combines well with 24 hour shield other. The poor range is a big drawback in open spaces though, so might not be as great in the open wilderness. Also get just about every level 1 utility scroll from both classes, plus a wand of cure light wounds, wand of invisibility, and heck if you still have money and want a good laugh at the DM's expense, wand of augury. Maybe a few level 2 scrolls too like spider climb and lesser restoration.

Once you hit level 8-9 the pain is over and you can cast things like halt undead, sleet storm, haste or prayer. You can start using your many lower level slots on hour/levels like the above plus unseen servant. Or swifts or immediates like nerveskitter, feather fall, swift fly and close wounds.

So... in your case I'd say necromancy, transmutation and conjuration are musts. Evocation and illusion are kinda nice. Enchantment is easy to ditch because undead. Abjuration is easy to ditch because of the cleric casting. So I'd ban enchantment and abjuration.

And mystic theurge is hard to pull off and usually worse than straight wizard, but it isn't horrible. Stay away from most of the big boom spells since you'll be bad at them, exploit the low level finesse spells as above like none other and you should be ok.

[Drake2009]

thanks! i think your the first person since the first 3 comments that didnt try and convince me to play something else!

[ace rooster]

Actually most illusions work fine against undead, it is just the phantasms and patterns that don't. Glamers and figments work even better against mindless creatures, as they will not question anomilies in their surroundings. They can see you casting, watch it appear, and still get no bonus to disbelieving it. The sudden appearance of tasty peasants running convieniently the other direction does not seem odd at all. Also while usually an illusion against a group can 'fail' if one of the group sees through it and tells the others, against zombies disbelief does not spread. They will happily let the rest of them try to cross the illusionary bridge over lava that wasn't there 6 seconds ago, and 6 seconds later, happily believe that the new bridge is real. They might pass the reflex save to not fall in, but fail the new will save. They will then happily try to cross the bridge again!

The good will save is annoying, but depending on how your DM runs illusions, and how good you are at using illusions they will not interact with, you can engineer illusions so that they do not get a save at all. For example, even in a place they live (unlive?), they will not examine a new wall that did not appear while they were looking through it. Whether they get a save from watching other zombies walk through that wall is DM call.

Mindless opponents are great fun for a character that relies on tricks, as you can rely on them falling for them! They don't even have to be believable to the point where a fish would not be tricked by it and you can reuse the same tactics again and again on the same opponent without them catching on.

Illusions definitely worth considering.

[Drake2009]

really? thats cool! ill have to use that to my advantage...

[Drake2009]

does anyone know if dire weasels are rideable? cause my dm wont let me!

[Forrestfire]

Dire weasels are actually the main mount of kobolds, so they're definitely ridable.

https://0-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/tg/image/1344/22/1344227482843.jpg

[Drake2009]

could you show me somewhere it says that... mah dm wants proof (I really want a dire weasel to ride!)

[Forrestfire]

Races of the Dragon somewhere. I'll check when I get home.

[Slipperychicken]

Races of the Dragon somewhere. I'll check when I get home.

Let me save you the trouble.


RotD pg 44
Specialized melee combatants are rare among kobolds, but they’re easily distinguished by the chitin armor (see page 121) they wear. Particularly strong and brave kobolds become dire weasel riders. These few form the light cavalry in a kobold army.



RotD pg 54
Druid: Kobold druids are champions of underground
resources and very much at odds with their own culture.
They feel that mining without exercising restraint robs the
earth of nourishment. As such, kobold druids are usually
exiled from their lair for having counterproductive beliefs.
These kobolds sometimes attack their own tribe, using
natural traps and summoned animals. Kobold druids favor
lizards or dire weasels as their animal companions.

The "Kobold Ranger" (RotD 109) substitution levels give a dire weasel companion.

References to dire weasels as Kobold mounts are also sprinkled throughout fluff sections of RotD.

[nedz]

Play a Wizard and either


Take Arcane Disciple (Healing)
Max out Use Magic Device

Buy a Wand of Cure Light Wounds and aim for the Combat Medic PrC (Heroes of Battle p99).

Healing sorted with full Wizard casting.

[Drake2009]

awesome! hopefully my dm will let me...

[Drake2009]

Well! i just made my character! apparently dire weasels are large in pathfinder.... but IM TOO SLEEPY TO CARE! WOOOH!
excuse me as i pass out!