What abilities automatically put a class in Tier 2 or better?

[Endarire]

Greetings, all!

Just as the title says - what abilities, when used by a player character class, make that class automatically tier 2 or better?

I'm not counting loops here. Being able to infinitely use an ability either has no major effect on tier (like a Warlock's invocations or dealing infinite damage against something with finite HP) or makes someone effectively unstoppable (using gate to call a Solar then bringing in an arbitrary amount more Solars that round).

[Spore]

Spells or psionics. Anything supernatural providing a wide variety of solutions.

[Zanos]

Spells or psionics. Anything supernatural providing a wide variety of solutions.
The fixed list casts are all Tier 3 or lower.

Spells or psionics from a wide list with few restrictions is probably more accurate.

[NoACWarrior]

Any full caster who can cast spells spontaneously gets a ride in tier 2 so long as they don't have a restricted list.
Also any supernatural ability to use a flexible spell effect (one which creates monsters, can cast other spells, or just is plain useful) which can be used infinitely throughout the day.
Also if the class has a specific ability or two at nearly every level of play which breaks the game in combat and out of combat then it is deserving of being in t2.

Warmage / Beguiler are t3 because they have restricted lists despite their full casting and knowing all the spells in their field. Binders get on t2 only with infinite summon monster.

[Erik Vale]

The above, and the ability to create any item by mimicing spells.
Also the Alter Form [or whatever] ability of that thing from the snake book that makes pun-pun possible.
Anything with Planar Binding.

So off the top of my head, Sorcerer, Wizard, Psion, Warlock [Crafting, Level 12+ only, Can be as lows as teir 4 though. Can also gain Teir 2 by being level 21 with the shadowmaster feat, either by sinking invocation slots into bad ones for the entire conjuration list up to 8 for wizard, or retraining to qualify.], Artificer, Sha'ir, Cleric, Druid, Dread Necromancer [Needs Crafting and Stronghold Builders Guide or other person though]

[Ansem]

Greetings, all!

Just as the title says - what abilities, when used by a player character class, make that class automatically tier 2 or better?


Anything that makes wizard-fanboys drool slightly.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Even the fixed spell list classes can move up to Tier 2 or higher with Magical Training (spellbook) + Versatile Spellcaster. You can add more spells to your spellbook just as a Wizard does per the Rules Compendium, so it basically gives you spontaneous access to anything from the Wizard spell list you're able to find and learn.

[Ansem]

Even the fixed spell list classes can move up to Tier 2 or higher with Magical Training (spellbook) + Versatile Spellcaster. You can add more spells to your spellbook just as a Wizard does per the Rules Compendium, so it basically gives you spontaneous access to anything from the Wizard spell list you're able to find and learn.

And how many DM's have allowed you to use that?
Next to the fact: You prepare your spells exactly as a wizard does.

[Taelas]

Even the fixed spell list classes can move up to Tier 2 or higher with Magical Training (spellbook) + Versatile Spellcaster. You can add more spells to your spellbook just as a Wizard does per the Rules Compendium, so it basically gives you spontaneous access to anything from the Wizard spell list you're able to find and learn.

:smallconfused:

No, you cannot. A fixed spell list caster does not gain levels in an "appropriate arcane spellcasting class". You cannot add squat to that spellbook, unless you start taking levels in Wizard, which would be the appropriate class in this context.

You do not have a class spell list associated with the spellbook, so you cannot add spells via copying them from a scroll or another spellbook. You know only 3 0-level spells from the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list.

Besides, as Ansem pointed out, you cast those spells precisely as a Wizard does. You cannot cast them spontaneously; they are not added to your fixed spell list.

[Urpriest]

In my opinion, there are a few relevant arenas:

First, singularity-cheese. This isn't the same thing as infinite loops. Rather, it's the fact that, with one of a short-ish list of open-ended abilities (Planar Binding/Greater Planar Binding/Gate, Shapechange/Greater Metamorphosis, Wish/Miracle/Reality Revision, Ice Assassin) you can get access to essentially any other ability in the game, including all of the other abilities on the singularity list. Basically, it's the equivalent of NP-complete problems but for optimization. Getting anything in this category makes you a Tier 2.

Second, similarly but at lower power, abilities that give extremely broad toolkits. Summon Monster, Polymorph, Planar Ally/Spirit Binding/etc.

Third, abilities that let you emulate another role very very efficiently. Divine Power/Righteous Might, various similar abilities.

Fourth, world-screw. Blizzard/Fimbulwinter, Apocalypse from the Sky, etc. The ability to have disproportionately large effects on the surrounding area.

BFC fits in, though BFC alone doesn't make you a Tier 2. In general though, Tier 2 classes have access to mass disables and extra-reliable single-target disables at low levels.

Edit: very open-ended divinations and broad-spectrum immunities are in the same category as BFC: not Tier 2 in their own right, but good indicators.

[Rubik]

In my opinion, there are a few relevant arenas:

First, singularity-cheese. This isn't the same thing as infinite loops. Rather, it's the fact that, with one of a short-ish list of open-ended abilities (Planar Binding/Greater Planar Binding/Gate, Shapechange/Greater Metamorphosis, Wish/Miracle/Reality Revision, Ice Assassin) you can get access to essentially any other ability in the game, including all of the other abilities on the singularity list. Basically, it's the equivalent of NP-complete problems but for optimization. Getting anything in this category makes you a Tier 2.

Second, similarly but at lower power, abilities that give extremely broad toolkits. Summon Monster, Polymorph, Planar Ally/Spirit Binding/etc.

Third, abilities that let you emulate another role very very efficiently. Divine Power/Righteous Might, various similar abilities.

Fourth, world-screw. Blizzard/Fimbulwinter, Apocalypse from the Sky, etc. The ability to have disproportionately large effects on the surrounding area.

BFC fits in, though BFC alone doesn't make you a Tier 2. In general though, Tier 2 classes have access to mass disables and extra-reliable single-target disables at low levels.

Edit: very open-ended divinations and broad-spectrum immunities are in the same category as BFC: not Tier 2 in their own right, but good indicators.Generally, having 2 or 3 of the above makes you T2, especially if changing your options on a day-to-day basis is difficult. Generally, T3s can gain access to 1 or more of them with sufficient optimization, which pushes them over the tier barrier. Having access to all of them (and more!) makes you T1, even if you can't have all of them at the same time. As a character gains levels, though, T2s tend to get more and more of them simultaneously, and T1s find it easier to pull more in at the same time, mixing and matching them to their whims.

[Person_Man]

My opinion is that to be Tier 1 or 2, you need:

A verbose list of abilities (spells, powers, vestiges, etc) that can cover multiple niches.
The list of abilities includes at least one open ended ability, such as Wildshape/Polymorph, Summons, Wish, Gate, Scrying, etc. This is really the key to being able to actively re-shape reality in your favor.
The list of abilities scales fully with your levels (ie, keeps pace with 1st through 9th level spells, and is not a nerfed version of them)
The ability to choose among these abilities (and not be locked into certain choices at certain levels).
You gain at least one ability known and at least one additional use per day each time you gain a level.


Though I would say that my preferred balance point is Tier 3, which would remove at least one of the above from it's class design.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

And how many DM's have allowed you to use that?
Next to the fact: You prepare your spells exactly as a wizard does.

It's par for the course in the group I play with.

You prepare and cast the 0-level spells exactly as a Wizard does, per Magical Training. You spend two spontaneous spell slots of the same level to cast any spell you know of one level higher, including those you copied into your spellbook, per Versatile Spellcaster.


:smallconfused:

No, you cannot. A fixed spell list caster does not gain levels in an "appropriate arcane spellcasting class". You cannot add squat to that spellbook, unless you start taking levels in Wizard, which would be the appropriate class in this context.

You do not have a class spell list associated with the spellbook, so you cannot add spells via copying them from a scroll or another spellbook. You know only 3 0-level spells from the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list.

Besides, as Ansem pointed out, you cast those spells precisely as a Wizard does. You cannot cast them spontaneously; they are not added to your fixed spell list.

Rules Compendium page 160:
ADDING SPELLS TO A SPELLBOOK
Spellcasters who use spellbooks can add new spells to their spellbooks through several methods.

That's not limited to Wizards, that's any character who uses a spellbook. Magical Training allows you to cast 0-level spells from the Wizard class spell list from a spellbook.

As I already pointed out, you don't need to prepare any spells you put into that book, the feat Versatile Spellcaster from Races of the Dragon allows you to spend spontaneous spell slots to cast any spell you know.

[Taelas]

Yes, spellcasters who use spellbooks can add spells to their spellbooks through several methods. Thing is, those methods? They aren't available to you in this situation.


Rules Compendium, page 160, "Gained Spells":
Spellcasters who use spellbooks perform spell research between adventures. Each time such a caster attains a new level in the appropriate arcane spellcasting class, that spellcaster
gains spells to add to the spellbook according to the class’s description and any restrictions from specialization.
Sorry, can't use this. You don't have an appropriate arcane spellcasting class, so you don't add any spells to your spellbook at level up--unless you start taking levels in the Wizard class, of course.


Rules Compendium, page 160, "Copied Spells":
The spell to be copied must be on the copier’s class spell list.

Guess what, you don't have a class spell list -- not one associated with spellbooks. Magical Training gives you access to 3 0-level spells drawn from the Sorc/Wiz spell list. It does not give you access to the Sorc/Wiz spell list.

[Ssalarn]

My opinion is that to be Tier 1 or 2, you need:

A verbose list of abilities (spells, powers, vestiges, etc) that can cover multiple niches.
The list of abilities includes at least one open ended ability, such as Wildshape/Polymorph, Summons, Wish, Gate, Scrying, etc. This is really the key to being able to actively re-shape reality in your favor.
The list of abilities scales fully with your levels (ie, keeps pace with 1st through 9th level spells, and is not a nerfed version of them)
The ability to choose among these abilities (and not be locked into certain choices at certain levels).
You gain at least one ability known and at least one additional use per day each time you gain a level.


Though I would say that my preferred balance point is Tier 3, which would remove at least one of the above from it's class design.

This is a really good summation. I usually go with "Any class that has the ability to effectively and consistently predict and deal with a large array of challenges in and out of combat, usually with the ability to 'port in' any solution he doesn't have immediately prepared, either through summonings, conjurations, or class abilities that give unusual access to magical items or effects".

If you can build an entire party out of that one class and expect them to perform consistently well in any given scenario, the class is probably at least Tier 3. If any given member of that group can be the one to deal with any given problem or encounter, it's probably Tier 1 or 2.

[Phelix-Mu]

No thing in the game is a non-situational, free, renewable, and exploitable as Spellcasting. This is a simple and profound truth.

A theoretical class was devised for a similar thread way back. d12, 8+Int skill points, all skills, all good saves, bonus feats as fighter but can be any feat, and bonus feats can be reselected every morning (or slots left empty to be set later in the day), maneuvers as a swordsage with warblade refresh mechanic, the full array of Evasion/Mettle and the Improved versions, trapfinding, and on and on. This theoretical class, it was widely agreed, might, just might, be a very weak Tier 2.

And that pretty much says it in a nutshell. Without manifesting or spellcasting or a comparable subsystem with the same kind of scope and support, one has to really cram a lot into a class to even get close to the edge between Tiers 3 and 2.

[NoACWarrior]

Now the question is, would warlock be T2 or T1 with a summon invocation which scaled with caster level?

I'm not talking about summon swarm, I'm talking about a fully scaled summon monster at each invocation step.

[Phelix-Mu]

Well, there was speculation that Zceryll binder breaks into Tier2. But, to tell the truth, summon monster line is actually one of the less effective versions of minionmancy that is out there. It is pretty useful, and adds great versatility for a single series of spells (though the early versions quickly start soaking up spell list space for sorcerers and the like...definitely don't want to select it nine times), but a single planar binding is way better than an endless series of summon monster.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Yes, spellcasters who use spellbooks can add spells to their spellbooks through several methods. Thing is, those methods? They aren't available to you in this situation.

Sorry, can't use this. You don't have an appropriate arcane spellcasting class, so you don't add any spells to your spellbook at level up--unless you start taking levels in the Wizard class, of course.

Guess what, you don't have a class spell list -- not one associated with spellbooks. Magical Training gives you access to 3 0-level spells drawn from the Sorc/Wiz spell list. It does not give you access to the Sorc/Wiz spell list.

PGtF p41, Magical Training:
"You have a spellbook with three 0-level spells of your choice from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. You prepare your spells exactly as a wizard does."

Since 'class spell list' is not defined in the PHB, DMG, or Rules Compendium, we'll have to conclude that casting from the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list means that this is the class spell list you use for this spellcasting ability, as well as for your spellbook.

[Seerow]

Now the question is, would warlock be T2 or T1 with a summon invocation which scaled with caster level?

I'm not talking about summon swarm, I'm talking about a fully scaled summon monster at each invocation step.

That would put them in Tier 2, like the Binder with access to the web supplement.

[Taelas]

PGtF p41, Magical Training:
"You have a spellbook with three 0-level spells of your choice from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. You prepare your spells exactly as a wizard does."

Since 'class spell list' is not defined in the PHB, DMG, or Rules Compendium, we'll have to conclude that casting from the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list means that this is the class spell list you use for this spellcasting ability, as well as for your spellbook.

No, that conclusion is unnecessary. You have the capability to cast three 0-level spells as a wizard, you have a spellbook three 0-level spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, and you must prepare them as a wizard does. That is the extent of the wizard side of the feat. Concluding that this somehow gives you full access to the sorcerer/wizard spell list is utterly absurd. At best, you could inscribe the rest of the 0-level spells in your spellbook, as that is the level the feat gives you access to, and even that is excessive.

[RedMage125]

To be above tier 4, you basically need spellcasting (or similar ability).

Tier 3 classes are those with limited spell lists.

Tier 2 has access to a broader range of class list, but has a limited spells/powers known (sorcerer, psion, favored soul).

And Tier 1 classes have that broad class list, but can change their spells known for the day with as little as 8 hours notice (cleric, wizard, etc.).