Simple, easy, balanced allowed-classes list?

[Seharvepernfan]

While the forum was down, I spent a little time thinking of a list of classes that are balanced with each other, are mostly just plug-in-and-play, and allow people to play all the same "stereotypes" that the PHB allows. I was aiming for T3.

Beguiler
Crusader
Dread Necromancer
Factotum
Priest (cloistered-cleric, with a few spells banned; see below)
Shapeshifter (Druid variant)
Summoner (watered-down from PF; see below)
Swordsage
Warmage
Warblade

Prestige Bard
Prestige Paladin (gains access to full cleric list of spells)
Prestige Ranger (track is the only feat prereq; if accessed through priest, gains full cleric list of spells)

Summoner
-d4
-no UMD
-no armor proficiency or ability to ignore spell failure in light armor
-no enchantment spells
-summon monster ability is used to summon eidolon (though it can stay until slain)
-summon monster ability requires standard-action concentration (except for eidolon)
-summoned monsters cannot use their spell-like abilities (except constant ones) or spells
-summon monster/summon nature's ally spells otherwise don't exist
-eidolon starts at small size (can become medium at 2nd level)
-I'm sure the eidolon-based abilities need some watering-down too, but I thought I'd stop here for now and see what people say.

Polymorph spells don't exist (except baleful polymorph)
Summon Monster/Summon Nature's Ally spells don't exist (except for the summoner's ability), and Gate cannot summon creatures
Planar Ally spells don't exist

Spells that priests lose access to (only taking the PHB into account):
2 - Sound Burst
3 - Searing Light
4 - Divine Power, Giant Vermin
5 - Flame Strike, Righteous Might, Slay Living
6 - Blade Barrier
7 - Destruction
8 - Earthquake, Firestorm
9 - Energy Drain, Implosion, Storm of Vengeance
Domain spells remain, however.

All the spell schools are represented pretty well, all the class roles and archetypes from the PHB are here (as well as others), I don't *think* any of these stand above the rest (priest and summoner are probably the most likely to).

So, how is it? Would you use it if "balance" was an issue?

[cakellene]

Your tag says 3e, but those are 3.5 classes.

[Seharvepernfan]

Your tag says 3e, but those are 3.5 classes.

Ah. I was looking through the tags and there was no 3.5. I assumed that 3e stood for 3.5.

[Thurbane]

Correct, there are no inbuilt 3.5 tages, so I would assume 3E encompasses 3.0 and 3.5.

Pathfinder has it's own tag.

[cakellene]

Default is 3.5, only need tag if it's for a different version.

[Psyren]

To actually address the OP's topic... A few points.

1) For starters, keep in mind that player > class; If T5 classes are removed or buffed, T1 classes won't actually cause problems in most games unless the people playing them are actively trying to cause trouble. Having said that...

2) If you're still intent on removing the high-tier classes and aiming for T3: I would add Binder, Incarnate and Totemist to your list. I notice you mention Summoner so I assume Pathfinder classes may be on the table, ergo I would also add Magus, Inquisitor, Alchemist and Ninja.

3) Which Priest do you mean? If you're referring to the 3rd party class on the PFSRD (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/adamant-entertainment/priest), that is most certainly T1 even with the spells you've removed. The summon monster spells by themselves can probably get a class to T2 once they are high-level enough to get the really good ones.

4) Which versions of spells are you using? There are some significant differences between certain PF and 3.5 spells, so you will need to be consistent/clear. Also, if you're using PF versions, the polymorph spells are actually fine now and you can put them back in.

[Doc_Maynot]

I'm doing something similar for a setting I made's "core" list.

Warriors:
Crusader
Swordsage
Warblade

Experts:
Bard (Altered to include Trapfinding, Bardic Knack is the default)
Beguiler
Factotum

Arcanists:
Dread Necromancer
Warlock (Invocations explicitly count as arcane spells of equal level for feat prerequisites)
Warmage

Divine Casters(Couldn't think of a better title):
Druid (Shapeshifter is the default)
Favored Soul (Altered to have turn/rebuke undead, must follow a deity's worldview not explicit alignment)
"Priest" (Healer, altered to be a fixed list spontaneous caster, given some cleric buffing and utility spells, healing hands applies to each die rolled in a cure spell)

No PrCs as of yet.

[Zubrowka74]

I noticed you mostly banned blast spells from the priest list. They don't come off very often in talks about T1/T2 überness. Some do pack a punch but for exemple Flame Strike. A fifth level blast spell that's essentially a beefed up fireball with some limits to the area affected, hardly the worst offender. Since you already got rid of summons, polymorphs and the like, I'd leave a few option to our poor caster besides the role of healbot.

[deuxhero]

Factotum is balanced sure, but simple?

Psionic Rogue is a good addition/replacement. PsyWar is pretty good too. Someone who *knows* Psionics better could prob come up with a list of stuff you could ban to keep the full manifesters out of tier 2 and into a solid tier 3.

[Seharvepernfan]

To actually address the OP's topic... A few points.

1) For starters, keep in mind that player > class; If T5 classes are removed or buffed, T1 classes won't actually cause problems in most games unless the people playing them are actively trying to cause trouble. Having said that...

2) If you're still intent on removing the high-tier classes and aiming for T3: I would add Binder, Incarnate and Totemist to your list. I notice you mention Summoner so I assume Pathfinder classes may be on the table, ergo I would also add Magus, Inquisitor, Alchemist and Ninja.

3) Which Priest do you mean? If you're referring to the 3rd party class on the PFSRD (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/adamant-entertainment/priest), that is most certainly T1 even with the spells you've removed. The summon monster spells by themselves can probably get a class to T2 once they are high-level enough to get the really good ones.

4) Which versions of spells are you using? There are some significant differences between certain PF and 3.5 spells, so you will need to be consistent/clear. Also, if you're using PF versions, the polymorph spells are actually fine now and you can put them back in.

I went with tier 3 because they're fairly easy to play, yet have enough power to do well. Generally, a newbie can take one of those classes and not completely eff it up, just by playing it naturally.

2: I don't have the Tome of Magic or any Psionic stuff, but I think those would work fine as well. I only brought in the Summoner from PF because 3.5 doesn't really have an abjurer/conjurer style class (like beguiler, dread necro, warmage). Summoner is intended to be the "wizard" of the available classes, as it's the only d4/no armor one on the list, and it has a fairly "generalist" spell list.

3: Priest is just a cloistered-cleric, with some spells removed. Summon monster spells have been removed.

4: I'm using 3.5 material only; I just adapted the Summoner because my list needed something like that.


I'm doing something similar for a setting I made's "core" list.

Warriors:
Crusader
Swordsage
Warblade

Experts:
Bard (Altered to include Trapfinding, Bardic Knack is the default)
Beguiler
Factotum

Arcanists:
Dread Necromancer
Warlock (Invocations explicitly count as arcane spells of equal level for feat prerequisites)
Warmage

Divine Casters(Couldn't think of a better title):
Druid (Shapeshifter is the default)
Favored Soul (Altered to have turn/rebuke undead, must follow a deity's worldview not explicit alignment)
"Priest" (Healer, altered to be a fixed list spontaneous caster, given some cleric buffing and utility spells, healing hands applies to each die rolled in a cure spell)

No PrCs as of yet.

Looks like we're on the same page. I left out favored souls because they're still a fairly solid T2 with their spell list, and healers because that's all they do (though my "priest" is basically the opposite of your "healer", given that it has mostly buffing/utility spells but can heal as well).


I noticed you mostly banned blast spells from the priest list. They don't come off very often in talks about T1/T2 überness. Some do pack a punch but for exemple Flame Strike. A fifth level blast spell that's essentially a beefed up fireball with some limits to the area affected, hardly the worst offender. Since you already got rid of summons, polymorphs and the like, I'd leave a few option to our poor caster besides the role of healbot.

I figured that without the ability to directly aid in a fight (through damage dealing spells or uber self-buffing), the priest would be relegated to buffing/utility/healing, and therefor not T1 or T2. Also, summon monster got banned. My list needs a "healer", so it got one who can do other stuff as well, just not direct combat ability (unless it takes death/destruction/strength/war domains).


Factotum is balanced sure, but simple?

Psionic Rogue is a good addition/replacement. PsyWar is pretty good too. Someone who *knows* Psionics better could prob come up with a list of stuff you could ban to keep the full manifesters out of tier 2 and into a solid tier 3.

The classes themselves weren't what I was talking about by "simple"; I was referring to the list itself. I generally avoid psionics; but what you said is true.