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its_all_ogre
2007-02-04, 12:24 PM
ok so the brief story is that a young red dragon has taken charge of a tribe of ogres who follow him willingly, cause he offers them wealth and he's a dragon and really hard.
thing is he is only young and is a 1st level sorcerer equivalent. so he'll know 2 level one spells, what spells to take?
i have kinda set on charm person for one but cannot make up my mind on the other.
the pc's are probably going to raid into the ogres lair and when the dragon finds enemies there he will flee for home, he is young and inexperienced so won't attack them while they are weak, unless they walk in with blood pouring from them noticeably(which will likely end in a tpk, but hey!).

his lair will be in a cavern dug into the side of a mountain, pools of lava will be below with walkways of stone left for his minions to move around and worship him and to store his treasure.
if it helps the party are level 6 gestalt and i have barbarian/scout as damage causer(tons), druid/scout, paladin/sorcerer and a cleric/monk.
i have core and comp adventurer and phb 2 and psionics book. i also use this to find feats http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/featsform.pl

thanks for any help btw!

PinkysBrain
2007-02-04, 12:37 PM
Expeditious retreat?

Maxymiuk
2007-02-04, 12:46 PM
I'm running an adventure featuring a young red dragon right now, and I have to say that the whole cave shtick can actually make yours weaker in a fight.

I don't know whether you have the Draconomicon, but it has a bunch of cool feats specifically for dragons. If not, the Monster Manual feats should be sufficient. As a Young Dragon, he gets 5 feats.

Flyby Attack - a complete must for any dragon serious about aerial combat. Best of all, it's useable with a breath weapon. A good tactic would be to wait till the party's in a narrow canyon with high walls. Fly over, breathe down, and disappear from view in the same round. Repeat until crispy.
Hover and Wingover - for better maneuverability in flight and that neat all-obscuring cloud of debris when close to ground.
Improved Natural Attack and Multiattack for when he's forced to fight on the ground.

Spells: At this caster level forget direct damage spells, especially against gestalt. Instead, go with something that will make him a pain to attack. Recommended:

Obscuring Mist - gives the party a miss chance, but the dragon can still breathe fire from within.

Disguise Self - Arguable that a dragon could make himself look like a rock, or a horse. Big surprise when he bites the druid in half.

Or simply Mage Armor and True Strike for that extra edge in melee.

Thomas
2007-02-04, 12:49 PM
Shield and mage armor are a good combination for totally frustrating players. Dragons are hard enough to hit, but a +8 bonus to AC is 40% less chance of hitting... but the PCs are gestalt, so I think you're fine to be giving them all the trouble you can (within the rules).

Replacing shield with charm person (if it fits your image of the dragon) isn't a bad idea.

With 13 HD the dragon's got 5 feats. Flyby Attack is a must; the rest depend on how your dragon fights. If he lands and rips into opponents, Multiattack and Power Attack. If he stays airborne using a breath weapon, Wingover and Hover. Improved Bullrush and Awesome Blow are nice if the dragon can attack the party on, say, a path up a cliff-face, near a river of lava, or in another environment where it can be used to devastating effect.

PinkysBrain
2007-02-04, 12:53 PM
Obscuring Mist - gives the party a miss chance, but the dragon can still breathe fire from within.Which also burns away the mist.

Maxymiuk
2007-02-04, 12:59 PM
Which also burns away the mist.

Fine then, spoil my fun... :smalltongue:

I still say this at least gives him the edge of a surprise round.
"The way ahead of you is obscured by mist."
"We proceed forward, weapons at the ready."
"Make a reflex save."
"..."

its_all_ogre
2007-02-04, 01:01 PM
oh yeah the cave has been dug for him by ogre allies, so it's pretty damn big! he is only large size anyway and i'm having him dive into the lava if needed.
pulling away from grappling pc's into the lava.....cause they are quite low level to take that kind of punishment. saving that for this guys mum dragon..
oh and the lava filled cavern complex will also have mephits, magmins and other fire related beasties for distraction(most will be CR3 only so not a real threat, but enough to keep players occupied!

Thomas
2007-02-04, 01:05 PM
Which also burns away the mist.

Debatable; the spell description refers to "fiery spells," not "fiery spells and effects"...

But yeah, by most sensible interpretations, fire-based breath weapons should be included in that.


And since you do have a river of lava... get Awesome Blow. -4 to hit, Power Attack to increase the DC - knock PCs into the river of lava!

Make the first 1-2 hexes on the edges of the river of lava so shallow that even being knocked prone there isn't total immersion (so it's just 2d6 damage - quite survivable), but being knocked prone further in will be total immersion (a sweet 20d6 damage).

It should scare the players, at least.

PinkysBrain
2007-02-04, 01:12 PM
If you want to be nasty take metabreath feats ... only problem is that it will kill people. Maximize breath, clinging breath and heighten breath ... 60 damage, save for half DC 22 ... 30 or 15 more next round depending on if they saved.

Saph
2007-02-04, 05:25 PM
I'm a fan of the simple approach when it comes to designing dragons.

Shield and Mage Armour for spells, Multiattack, Power Attack, and Flyby Attack for feats - dragons are combat monsters anyway, so play to their strengths. +8 AC from Shield and Mage Armour will give your draggy an AC of 29, which should drive the melee characters nuts unless someone remembered to prepare a Dispel Magic. With Multiattack a full attack from him will be 6 attacks, with an attack bonus of 17-19. Don't forget to sink surplus BAB into Power Attack for extra damage goodness. If you REALLY want to irritate your melee PCs, give your dragon +1 Int and Combat Expertise. "Hmm, your attack bonus is +14? Nope, sorry, you still need a natural 20 to hit."

Alternately go with the Flyby Attack/breath weapon/cliffs and obstacles option.

Bear in mind that a dragon with good tactics and good feat selection (and hey, dragons are smart) should probably be able to wipe out a party of level equal to its CR or lower, which is why it's a good idea to give the PCs lots of preparation time, a way to negotiate out of fighting the thing, or the option to withdraw.

- Saph

Thomas
2007-02-04, 06:14 PM
Mage armor + shield and Power Attack + Awesome Blow + river of lava would make for a very deadly encounter, definitely, but not an overpowering one. Dispel magic is something every 5th- or 6th-level party should have access to, and after the first PC gets knocked into the lava (for 2d6 damage/round), they'll probably try to stay away from it.

All dragon fights should be about putting the dragon in a position where it doesn't have the advantage, and this looks like a good chance to start teaching the PCs that. Think up some weaknesses (nothing blatant!) the dragon has that your PCs might figure out and exploit; and think up some environment or terrain features in the general vicinity that they might use to an advantage (nothing overpowering, just something to give them the edge in a well-planned fight).

Arbitrarity
2007-02-04, 09:24 PM
Now, true strike, power attack, and awesome blow could be interesting...

Full power attack! Hah, still 21 to hit! Win!

Fall into the lava... fall!

Kaerou
2007-02-05, 06:26 AM
Have him fight within a shallow stream of lava.

have him be ready to retreat.

Dragons arent stupid, he's immune to fire, they arent. He's also young and not wanting to die. He should have a line of retreat ready to use at any time, a winged method of retreat at that. Him running still means they win the encounter. (and being young, he's essentially a child, you need to remember that.. as a child he would be quite cowardly at that age).

I'm also find of traps.

As for feats.. you cant go wrong with improved toughness for more HP's.

Spells.. 1st level only.. Mage armor and expedious retreat.

Darkshade
2007-02-05, 06:39 AM
dude here is your spell,
Burning Rage
from the PHB2
it gives the Dragon a little bit of a boost in a combat,
plus it's drawback is that the dragon would be taking fire damage every round
whats that you say? its immune to fire damage?
score!

Thomas
2007-02-05, 07:43 AM
(and being young, he's essentially a child, you need to remember that.. as a child he would be quite cowardly at that age).

Not really. It's a dragon. At the tender age of 16-25, it's a literal killing machine, able to tear apart men and big animals, only threatened by bigger monsters, older dragons, and experienced adventurers. Being a red, specifically, the dragon's likely to be overconfident, cruel, and proud.

However, you're right that since it's also damnably clever - being a dragon (and having above-average mental scores) - it's certainly smart enough to have prepared one or more means of escape (I should think lair preparation is one of the first things young dragons are taught), and to take advantage of all its abilities.

Maxymiuk
2007-02-05, 07:58 AM
(I should think lair preparation is one of the first things young dragons are taught)

"...and that concludes today's Traps and Pitfalls lesson. For next class you'll write a one-page essay detailing the pros and cons of any ten engineering guilds that contract to dragons."

Saph
2007-02-05, 09:13 AM
Actually, the Draconomicon mentions that dragons are born with a store of innate draconic knowledge, absorbed from their parents. It's mostly subliminal, not conscious, but that's why a dragon only a year or two old is still lethal in a fight.

So even though he's a child, he's a child with far more experience and practical knowledge than any human could have at his age.

- Saph

Thomas
2007-02-05, 11:45 AM
Sounds like they were drawing on the AD&D setting, Council of Wyrms; the books explained that the parents whisper to the unborn dragon in its egg, teaching it basic things about being a dragon.

Maxymiuk
2007-02-05, 11:48 AM
Sounds like they were drawing on the AD&D setting, Council of Wyrms; the books explained that the parents whisper to the unborn dragon in its egg, teaching it basic things about being a dragon.

Ooh, I like that idea. Sort of like subliminal tapes, only it actually works. :smalltongue:

its_all_ogre
2007-02-07, 04:46 PM
ok have gone with this: feats power attack, improved bull rush(push into lava!) hover, fly byattack and multi-attack.
spells mage armour and expeditious retreat.
it will flee when it first gets attacked by them, they will have slain a ton of ogres by this point and it will be a bit frightened, they will be able to easily follow it to its lair, there it will not flee.
it will use swimming in lava, pop up and bull rush one into lava(shallow) then attack, next round depending on how they are doing either full attack or get out and BW them. mage armour for improved ac obviously.
if they're going for lots of spells it will get in close and breath on them, then hover and full attack then bull rush.
loads of fun.

SpiderBrigade
2007-02-07, 05:05 PM
Actually, the Draconomicon mentions that dragons are born with a store of innate draconic knowledge, absorbed from their parents. It's mostly subliminal, not conscious, but that's why a dragon only a year or two old is still lethal in a fight.

So even though he's a child, he's a child with far more experience and practical knowledge than any human could have at his age....Dragons are Bene Gesserit?

That's it. I'm totally having a dragon NPC based on Leto II in his full-on whiny mystic phase.