Gunslinger Question

[Buddha's_Cookie]

I have an upcoming pirate campaign and looking over the classes, I am a bit concerned with the Gunslinger. More specifically the Dead Shot ability, So you don't need to look it up:


Dead Shot (Ex): At 7th level, as a full-round action, the gunslinger can take careful aim and pool all of her attack potential into a single, deadly shot. When she does this, she shoots the firearm at a single target, but makes as many attack rolls as she can, based on her base attack bonus. She makes the attack rolls in order from highest bonus to lowest, as if she were making a full attack. If any of the attack rolls hit the target, the gunslinger’s single attack is considered to have hit. For each additional successful attack roll beyond the first, the gunslinger increases the damage of the shot by the base damage dice of the firearm. For instance, if a 7th-level gunslinger firing a musket hits with both attacks, she does 2d12 points of damage with the shot, instead of 1d12 points of damage, before adding any damage modifiers. Precision damage and extra damage from weapon special abilities (such as flaming) are added with damage modifiers and are not increased by this deed. If one or more rolls are critical threats, she confirms the critical once using her highest base attack bonus –5. For each critical threat beyond the first, she reduces this penalty by 1 (to a maximum of 0). The gunslinger only misfires on a dead shot if all the attack rolls are misfires. She cannot perform this deed with a blunderbuss or other scatter weapon when attacking creatures in a cone. The gunslinger must spend 1 grit point to perform this deed. -PFSRD

I can understand why the ability is this way, it makes good use of the base attack bonus for guns that can only be fired once a round. My real concern is that it turns into a one round boss killer. Are my fears unfounded? If the ability (or class) needs a bit of change I would like your advice.

[grarrrg]

Compare to the Vital (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/vital-strike-combat---final) Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/improved-vital-strike-combat---final) chain (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/greater-vital-strike-combat---final) of feats, and the Clustered Shots (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/clustered-shots-combat) feat.

It's mostly the same as Vital Strike.
Worse, in that it takes a Full Round action, and you get a penalty to confirm Criticals. And it costs a Grit Point.
Better, in that you get to take multiple attack rolls, with only one success needed, and you get (virtual) Misfire Immunity.

And Vital Strike is FAR from 'OMG overpowered'.

[Snowbluff]

I am a bit concerned with the Gunslinger.

Pfft... HAHAHAHAHA!

Anyway, it's fine. You might have someone getting an easy crit off of it, but it won't really be a problem. It's the TWF gun guy that can hurt, but if they are investing as many feats and gold as it takes, it's not really worth messing with them.

[Buddha's_Cookie]

Compare to the Vital (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/vital-strike-combat---final) Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/improved-vital-strike-combat---final) chain (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/greater-vital-strike-combat---final) of feats, and the Clustered Shots (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/clustered-shots-combat) feat.

It's mostly the same as Vital Strike.
Worse, in that it takes a Full Round action, and you get a penalty to confirm Criticals. And it costs a Grit Point.
Better, in that you get to take multiple attack rolls, with only one success needed, and you get (virtual) Misfire Immunity.

And Vital Strike is FAR from 'OMG overpowered'.

I don't agree with the Cluster Shot, as this is early fire arms, not advanced. And I would think the Vital strike would be an improvement as you only roll once.
But I guess at the higher levels where Dead Shot would be "OP" it is balanced by encounter level, and range increments etc.

[TheIronGolem]

And I would think the Vital strike would be an improvement as you only roll once.

Yes, but it's once at your highest bonus (the most likely one to hit), and if it hits then that's like getting auto-successes on all of your subsequent Dead Shot rolls. And you can either save the Grit point, or use it on another Deed to improve the shot. Plus you still have a move action left over.

[Slipperychicken]

Honestly, it doesn't seem that good to me. I'd bet the gunslinger would be better off full-attacking. He should be hitting almost every shot anyway (Full BAB + Good Dex + enhancement should utterly ruin anyone's Touch AC). And if a gun-user gets to level 7 without some way to reload as a free action, that's his own fault, really. Even with muskets, he could just take Musket Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/gunslinger/archetypes/paizo---gunslinger-archetypes/musket-master) 3 and use paper cartridges.

It isn't a boss-killer partly because you only get to roll confirmation once, partly because you get a -5 to that confirmation roll. Also, it only adds an extra damage die for the extra attacks, not the other modifiers like Dexterity or enhancement bonus.

To settle this, we'd need to compare expected damage output from a gunslinger's full-attack, and from the same gunslinger's Dead Aim action.

[Ssalarn]

Dead Shot isn't something to worry about. It's basically the consolation prize for characters who can't get their weapon reload times down enough to make a full attack. Most palyers I've seen end up using either the Musket Master or Pistolero archetypes and never even use this Deed. If they are using a build that relies on Dead Shot, you've dodged a bullet and they're probably playing a perfectly balanced character, maybe even one who's a little bit of an under-performer in combat, though with some solid versatility.

[Buddha's_Cookie]

Care to explain the action economy on a full attack, I don't know if I am not looking at the right things, but as I see it the player does not make a full attack with firearms. Even with rapid reload.

[Ssalarn]

Care to explain the action economy on a full attack, I don't know if I am not looking at the right things, but as I see it the player does not make a full attack with firearms. Even with rapid reload.

It's a standard action to reload a one-handed firearm normally, Rapid Reload lowers it to a move, and alchemical cartridges allow you to do it as a free action.

The Musket Master archetype allows a character to reload a two-handed firearm as though it were a one handed firearm and gives up pretty much nothing the character cares about.

The Gunslinger's ability to craft his own ammunition makes the basic paper cartridge dirt cheap, so full attacking is generally not an issue for a lot of Gunslinger builds, even at first level.

And remember, the Gunslinger is a ranged combatant, so his archer analogues can generally full attack much more easily and much earlier, and usually with more attacks. The only real problem is when you get into the whole dual-wielding double-barreled pistol with an extra limb or a Glove of Storing so you can reload.

[squiggit]

The Gunslinger's ability to craft his own ammunition makes the basic paper cartridge dirt cheap, so full attacking is generally not an issue for a lot of Gunslinger builds, even at first level.
Other, of course, than free action economy being entirely DM fiat. I've seen more than a few come down hard on gunslingers in that regard, especially the TWF ones. Even while in a party with wizards and half elf oracles

[Mithril Leaf]

Dead Shot isn't something to worry about. It's basically the consolation prize for characters who can't get their weapon reload times down enough to make a full attack. Most palyers I've seen end up using either the Musket Master or Pistolero archetypes and never even use this Deed. If they are using a build that relies on Dead Shot, you've dodged a bullet and they're probably playing a perfectly balanced character, maybe even one who's a little bit of an under-performer in combat, though with some solid versatility.

The obvious solution to all of the flaws of dead shot is to use it with a cannon in a portable hole.

[Slipperychicken]

Care to explain the action economy on a full attack, I don't know if I am not looking at the right things, but as I see it the player does not make a full attack with firearms. Even with rapid reload.

Assuming you get the reload time down to a free action (see below), it's the same as with a bow: you reload as a free action between each shot.


Basically, the spectrum of possible reload actions has "steps", like these.

Full-Round -> Standard -> Move -> Free.

Pistols start as a standard reload. Rapid Reload(pistols) moves it down to a Move action. Using an alchemical cartridge moves that down to Free.



[Rapid Reload Excerpt]
Benefit: The time required for you to reload your chosen type of weapon is reduced to a free action (for a hand or light crossbow), a move action (for heavy crossbow or one-handed firearm), or a standard action (two-handed firearm). Reloading a crossbow or firearm still provokes attacks of opportunity.


Alchemical cartridges:
An alchemical cartridge is a prepared bundle of black powder with a bullet or pellets, sometimes with more exotic material added, which is then wrapped in paper or cloth and sealed with beeswax, lard, or tallow. There are many types of alchemical cartridges, the simplest being the paper cartridge—a simple mix of black powder and either pellets or a bullet. Alchemical cartridges make loading a firearm easier, reducing the time to load a firearm by one step (a full-round action becomes a standard action, a standard action becomes a move action, and a move action becomes a free action), but they tend to be unstable. The misfire value of a weapon firing an alchemical cartridge increases as listed in each entry.

[Ssalarn]

Other, of course, than free action economy being entirely DM fiat. I've seen more than a few come down hard on gunslingers in that regard, especially the TWF ones. Even while in a party with wizards and half elf oracles

I can't say I've had that issue. Most GM's I've dealt with who want to put a cap on free actions look at what an archer would need for a full attack and set it about there, so the only Gunslinger who loses out is the guy TWF with double-barrels and using a Glove of Storing to free up a hand for reloads.

ANd to be fair, I kind of think that guy deserves the hit :P

[squiggit]

Also you lose out on extra static mods with dead shot, so if you aren't crit fishing it's worse than a full attack other than saving you gold on ammo I guess (so maybe if you need to shoot an adamantium bullet and you aren't high enough level for that cost to be trivial).

I can't say I've had that issue. Most GM's I've dealt with who want to put a cap on free actions look at what an archer would need for a full attack and set it about there
Must just be bad luck on my part. Most of the DMs I've played with as a gunslinger balked at the idea of reloading more than once per turn and I've had a couple who wouldn't let me reload between shots.


so the only Gunslinger who loses out is the guy TWF with double-barrels and using a Glove of Storing to free up a hand for reloads.

ANd to be fair, I kind of think that guy deserves the hit :P

Depends. In an average game, maybe. But when she's in a party with a witch, summoner and half elf oracle? Eh, let him have his one cool thing. It's not like gunslingers are good at anything other than shooting people anyways.

[Ssalarn]

Must just be bad luck on my part. Most of the DMs I've played with as a gunslinger balked at the idea of reloading more than once per turn and I've had a couple who wouldn't let me reload between shots.



Depends. In an average game, maybe. But when she's in a party with a witch, summoner and half elf oracle? Eh, let him have his one cool thing. It's not like gunslingers are good at anything other than shooting people anyways.



I can agree with the second part of that. Generally the GS only needs to be nerfed when compared to non-casters.

Having a DM who won't let you reload more than once a round is.... Rough. I suppose that would mean you could still squeeze out up to three attacks with Lightning Reload that lets you do it as a swift action?

Paizo made firearms way too complicated. We throw out the touch AC and misfire mechanics and replace them with a system called PR or "Penetration Rating". All one-handed Early Firearms have a PR of 2, and two-handed early firearms have a PR of 4. Enhancement bonuses automatically improve your PR by that amount, so a guy with a +2 Musket has PR 6, meaning he ignores the first 6 points of AC due to armor, natural armor, or shields. It works wonders for making the class and weapon more acceptable and accessible to everyone.

[Snowbluff]

If firearms have PR, other weapons should, too. Crossbows were better at penetrating armor, for example.

But that's still too complicated. I think just removing misfires and touch attacks would be fine.

[CombatOwl]

I have an upcoming pirate campaign and looking over the classes, I am a bit concerned with the Gunslinger. More specifically the Dead Shot ability, So you don't need to look it up:



I can understand why the ability is this way, it makes good use of the base attack bonus for guns that can only be fired once a round. My real concern is that it turns into a one round boss killer. Are my fears unfounded? If the ability (or class) needs a bit of change I would like your advice.

Someone is a glutton for punishment if they're playing a gunslinger in a skulls and shackles game.

[Buddha's_Cookie]

To the above: it is a homebrew setting not a published setting. Honestly I know next to nothing about most of the published setting out there.


I can't say I've had that issue. Most GM's I've dealt with who want to put a cap on free actions look at what an archer would need for a full attack and set it about there, so the only Gunslinger who loses out is the guy TWF with double-barrels and using a Glove of Storing to free up a hand for reloads.
I think I will end up doing something similar.

To all others: I think that answers all of my questions for the moment, thank you for your input.

[Slipperychicken]

I can't say I've had that issue. Most GM's I've dealt with who want to put a cap on free actions look at what an archer would need for a full attack and set it about there, so the only Gunslinger who loses out is the guy TWF with double-barrels and using a Glove of Storing to free up a hand for reloads.

ANd to be fair, I kind of think that guy deserves the hit :P

That guy's taking pretty huge penalties to hit if he wants to spam that much dakka. Double-barreled pistols aren't light weapons, so TWF is giving -4 to hit, firing both barrels at once gives an additional -4, Rapid Shot throws on -2, then deadly aim's penalty, then the regular minuses for iteratives. Even against Touch AC, the tohit chance isn't looking good.

That's not even touching the chance to misfire aggregated over that many attack rolls. Unless he's using a pair of +1 Greater Reliable double-barreled pistols, it's all but guaranteed. And if he misfires with both barrels at once, that instantly wrecks/destroys the firearm.

[Ssalarn]

That guy's taking pretty huge penalties to hit if he wants to spam that much dakka. Double-barreled pistols aren't light weapons, so TWF is giving -4 to hit, firing both barrels at once gives an additional -4, Rapid Shot throws on -2, then deadly aim's penalty, then the regular minuses for iteratives. Even against Touch AC, the tohit chance isn't looking good.

That's not even touching the chance to misfire aggregated over that many attack rolls. Unless he's using a pair of +1 Greater Reliable double-barreled pistols, it's all but guaranteed. And if he misfires with both barrels at once, that instantly wrecks/destroys the firearm.

By the levels he's doing it the penalties are pretty negligible compared to hitting touch AC. He's often ignoring 20+ points of natural armor against Bestiary monsters. Remember, Touch AC is the only defense that actually scales down as levels go up. And getting rid of misfires is not hard. Dwarven Gunslingers can use their favored class bonus to negate misfires without ever needing magical gear, there's the Reliable enchantments, and frankly you can pump enough damage out that sometimes it's just as effective to keep a few extra non-magical firearms on hand to replace the busted one.

There's a very narrow window between 3rd and 7th level where misfires and attack penalties are actually a balancing factor. After that, everyone with a fair degree of system mastery isn't the least bit inconvenienced and average to beginning players are wondering why on earth they thought playing this terrible class with the exploding weapons was a good idea.

There's also a very large amount of dissent over whether you can auto blow up your firearm when firing a double-barrel that I don't even want to get into. There's literally threads like 20 pages long on the Paizo forums with people discussing that one to death at length, due to the odd verbage tied into firing both barrels as a single action. I'm not arguing for or against, I'm just saying that it's a can of worms not worth opening. Misfires were a terrible idea, and martial weapons targeting touch AC was a worse idea. It's mechanically the worst full class and subsystem Paizo has ever published. You don't balance to negatives, because people will find a way around them. You don't balance to cash management, because that will be handled differently in every game. You have to ensure that your new subsystem actually fits into the existing framework of the game. All of those were thrown out the window on this one, which is unfortunate, because a lot of the other ideas and mechanics were super cool.

All of that being said, if your player isn't going for the TWF double-barreled Pistolero, you'll be fine. He has all the tools at his disposal to make things work, and he's going to avoid most of the things that are likely to leave a bad taste in the mouth of a more conservative GM

[magwaaf]

so by the time my campaign ended i had all the dual wield feats 2 revolers and 5 single shot pistols with returning so i could fire an drop. this let me abuse dead shot as i could just fire away at touch ac and makesure to do massive damage.

[Ssalarn]

so by the time my campaign ended i had all the dual wield feats 2 revolers and 5 single shot pistols with returning so i could fire an drop. this let me abuse dead shot as i could just fire away at touch ac and makesure to do massive damage.

That doesn't have anything to do with abusing Deadshot. Deadshot only allows you to apply bonus damage for the additional attacks you can make based on your BAB. It doesn't allow you to pile on extra damage for attacks you could make due to feats and special equipment properties.

Deadshot is worth, at most, 4 weapon damage rolls worth of attacks. The guy firing, dropping and quickdrawing is an excellent example of why Deadshot isn't something worth worrying about.

[The Insanity]

The new Gun Twirling feat makes it even easier to TWF rapid-fire pistols.

[Ssalarn]

The new Gun Twirling feat makes it even easier to TWF rapid-fire pistols.

And it's a great way for Rogues to get Sneak Attack damage on firearm attacks :)

[grarrrg]

The new Gun Twirling feat makes it even easier to TWF rapid-fire pistols.

SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY!
No...seriously...we can TWF decently withOUT needing a third arm now!

[Slipperychicken]

And it's a great way for Rogues to get Sneak Attack damage on firearm attacks :)

There has got to be a way to make ranged feinting work with full-attacks. Because ranged full-attacking against [Touch AC minus dex] while adding SA dice to every shot is a Rogue's wet dream. Once we have all the necessary feats/tricks, then we just need to pump the bluff check.

Even without full-attacks, our gun-Rogue could use a double-barreled pistol to score two attacks in between each feint.

[Big Fau]

There has got to be a way to make ranged feinting work with full-attacks. Because ranged full-attacking against [Touch AC minus dex] while adding SA dice to every shot is a Rogue's wet dream. Once we have all the necessary feats/tricks, then we just need to pump the bluff check.

Expect the nerf bat to be in full force less than a month after this dream is realized.

[Slipperychicken]

Expect the nerf bat to be in full force less than a month after this dream is realized.

I wouldn't mind that too much. At least Paizo is visibly trying to keep things balanced with errata, FAQ, and commentary.

[Anlashok]

I wouldn't mind that too much. At least Paizo is visibly trying to keep things balanced with errata, FAQ, and commentary.

I wouldn't call worrying about Gunslingers in a game where Wizards are also a class "trying to keep the things balanced".

[Slipperychicken]

I wouldn't call worrying about Gunslingers in a game where Wizards are also a class "trying to keep the things balanced".

I said "trying", not "succeeding" :smalltongue:

[Ssalarn]

There has got to be a way to make ranged feinting work with full-attacks. Because ranged full-attacking against [Touch AC minus dex] while adding SA dice to every shot is a Rogue's wet dream. Once we have all the necessary feats/tricks, then we just need to pump the bluff check.

Even without full-attacks, our gun-Rogue could use a double-barreled pistol to score two attacks in between each feint.

If you can come up with a ready way to give yourself concealment, Moonlight Stalker Feint plus Greater Feint would do it. Maybe Wind Stance?

That's a lot of feats though.

[Erth16]

If you can come up with a ready way to give yourself concealment, Moonlight Stalker Feint plus Greater Feint would do it. Maybe Wind Stance?

That's a lot of feats though.

Hellcat Stealth would probably be better than Wind Stance, especially since some DM's might rule the concealment being only from ranged attacks as not qualifying for Moonlight Stalker Feint, and that Wind stance requires more than five feet of movement, so the full attack is gone anyways.