Channeling Spells thru your Weapon and Critical Hits

[Diarmuid]

Some classes; spellsword, duskblade, ruathari battlemage, etc...are able to channel spells through their weapons to be delivered on a successful hit with that weapon.

These spells normally have the ability to crit if the normal melee/ranged touch attack used to deliver them is a critical threat that gets confirmed.

Weapons have the ability to have a much better crit range than the normal 20x2 associated with the spells.


Does the weapon crit range extend to the spell being channeled?
Does the spell now crit whenever the weapon crits?
Does the spell share the crit multiplier of the weapon as opposed to normal, simple doubling?

[Xerlith]

The spell uses the weapon's threat range and confirmation rolls, but its own critical multiplier. The rules should be in CArc

[Diarmuid]

The rules in CArc relate to spells themselves and how they can critical, but say nothing about how they interact when dependant on weapon attack rolls as opposed to the normal melee/ranged touch inherent in the spell.

If it's in another section in CArc, I didnt see it but I certainly could have missed it. Can you provide the page number where the rules you're thinking of are?

[Xerlith]

Bah, sorry. I was thinking about the weaponlike spells section on pages 85-86, but that's not what I had in mind...

[Diarmuid]

So no other thoughts or opinions on channeling spells and critical hits with the weapons?

[Doc_Maynot]

Well I'm not sure about the others, but duskblade says, "If the melee attack is successful, the attack deals damage normally; then the effect of the spell is resolved." So it would appear that at least for duskblade, the critical wouldn't matter.

[TuggyNE]

The usual interpretation I've seen on this is that the extra damage from the spell is effectively extra damage dice, and is thus not multiplied at all.

Sometimes I've seen suggestions that the spell should crit on its own range and with its own multiplier, but that seems dubious and inefficient at the table.

[Cloud]

What Doc_Maynot and TuggyNE said. If someone channeling a spell critical hits with a weapon, the weapon crits as normal. The spell is just along for the ride and happens when you hit, you don't roll an attack roll for the spell so the spell can't critical hit.

[Khedrac]

It's a messy area. Spellswords (I think) have specific text on how their crits work, but for others there are no clear rules.

A lot depends on the type of spell being channeled:

non attack roll spells - cannot normally crit, why should it now? However take fireball, it normally affects more than 1 target so may be losing more than it gains (does a save still apply?)
ranged attack spells - can crit, but if miss are lost. These get a straight advantage as they just lose the "if miss wasted" part. E.g. Orb spells
melee attack spells - can crit, if miss can "hold the charge" - so gain the weapon's crit properties if not (20). E.g. Shocking Grasp.

As has been said they are technically (usually) bonus damage dice so not subject to weapon crit multiplication, and those that are not are usually too small to worry about.

If you want them to crit, then my suggestion is that the spell's critical range be independent from the weapon (i.e. 20 x2 for all spells).

This is also my approach to multiple critical effects. I mean, why should a sword of Shocking Burst stop working because it is wielded by someone with Improved Critical? It is too easy to mix critical effects by accident - and it doesn't actually add much power to treat each critical-effect as independent.

[Talya]

I mean, why should a sword of Shocking Burst stop working because it is wielded by someone with Improved Critical?

Uhhh....it doesn't? And nobody has ever suggested it did? I'm not sure i get what you're saying here. Shocking burst is always better with abilities like keen/improved crit. It's better still on weapons with extended threat ranges or improved multipliers.

[Diarmuid]

So from what I'm reading, channeling a spell through a weapon completely forgoes the possibility/ability to critical with the spell?

[Talya]

So from what I'm reading, channeling a spell through a weapon completely forgoes the possibility/ability to critical with the spell?

it totally depends which rule the DM decides to apply. Is it "Bonus damage dice?" Or is it a "Weaponlike spell?"

Sadly, there is no definitive ruling. The DM will need to make a call, as it's not clearly spelled out one way or the other.

I can see an argument for either being appropriate, balance-wise. A "Gish" type of character is far less powerful already than a spellcaster. Why should we make the gap wider by denying them someething that a spellcaster has - a chance to crit with their spells? On the other hand, a "Gish" type of character is far more powerful than a fighter-type. Why make the gap between them wider?

[Khedrac]

Uhhh....it doesn't? And nobody has ever suggested it did? I'm not sure i get what you're saying here. Shocking burst is always better with abilities like keen/improved crit. It's better still on weapons with extended threat ranges or improved multipliers.
Heh - I hadn't noticed that the X-Burst effects lack the text about not working with any effect that affects the critical range (as Keen has). I am sure there are some that do have the text though. Thank-you for pointing that one out.:smallsmile:

[Curmudgeon]

Does the weapon crit range extend to the spell being channeled?
Does the spell now crit whenever the weapon crits?
Does the spell share the crit multiplier of the weapon as opposed to normal, simple doubling?


No. Weaponlike spells always threaten on a natural 20. (You can expand that with Improved Critical for the type of spell you're using; see Complete Arcane on pages 72-73.) The fact that you're delivering two effects with a single attack doesn't change the separate rules associated with those attacks.
No; see above. If it's a weaponlike spell it's got its own threat range and will need its own critical hit confirmation roll.
Again, no. If it's a weaponlike spell it follows the rules for such. If it's not weaponlike it's just along for the ride and won't ever be multiplied regardless of what rolls you make for the weapon attack.

[DarkSonic1337]

RAW I think that they can't crit at all, because in order you can only critical spells that you make an attack roll for. If you are channeling the spell, you are making an attack roll for the weapon, THEN applying the spell on a successful hit.

However I'd houserule them to just use the weapon's critical threat range, but keep their own x2 modifier, like the Magus does in pathfinder.

[Tathum]

The Spellsword I rolled gets to crit with any touch spell channeled into her sword.

Non-touch spells generally don't, but the DM did allow me to crit with a Bestow Curse once. Made the rest of the fight very easy against that dragon.

But, Burtal Seething Surge, Chill Touch, Disintegrate, and Scorching Ray all crit VERY well. Especially the first two as they last until all charges are used.

Disintegrate, of course, basically insta-kills anything you but when it crits...

[Terazul]

Yeah, as written the spell effects take place after you hit, so they can't crit ever. However, I wouldn't consider it unreasonable to use the ruling of the Pathfinder Magus' Spellstrike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus#TOC-Spellstrike-Su-); crit when the weapon crits, but always has a 2x multiplier.

[NoACWarrior]

What Doc_Maynot and TuggyNE said. If someone channeling a spell critical hits with a weapon, the weapon crits as normal. The spell is just along for the ride and happens when you hit, you don't roll an attack roll for the spell so the spell can't critical hit.

I'll fourth this. Unless an attack roll used for the spell, it can't critical hit. Channeling and spell storage weapons only discharge the spell on the target on any hit, and the spell simply takes effect without an attack roll. The same thing can be said about using an unarmed strike or natural attack while holding a touch effect generated from a spell, spell like ability, or supernatural ability. The touch effect affects the target (if legal) when the unarmed strike or natural attack hits.

Using a weapon like spell with their native touch and ranged touch attacks allow for the critical feature.