Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra

[eastmabl]

For the coming adventure, my adventurers will be traveling through steppes populated by barbarians.

To give a good impression of "other-ness" that I want these barbarians to have, I am giving them a tribal language that no one speaks. However, to make sure that the party can communicate with the barbarians, all will speak Common through a series of metaphors akin to the TNG episode "Darmok (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darmok)." (For the /tldr crowd, in the episode the Enterprise makes contact with an alien race whose language they can decode, but the race communicates in a series of metaphors and allusions that elude comprehension until the end of the episode). While not integral to the larger adventure, it adds a verbal puzzle to an otherwise hack and slash adventure (I have players who have asked for puzzles) while pulling in some party members who might otherwise sleep through a normal puzzle encounter.

In order to make sure that my players can figure out the trick to barbarian's speaking, I want to litter the barbarians' speech with allusions to fantasy and science fiction books/films/etc. For example, while the party crusader practices his sword fu in the morning, a barbarian might come up and chuckle, "Yes - what is best in life." This would reference the Conan the Barbarian movie, where the answer might be "the open steppe, a fleet horse, falcons at your wrist, and the wind in your hair" or "to crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women."

Where I need the playground's help is mining other references that could be used in other circumstances. Do you have any ideas?

Thanks.

(I should also note that tribal leaders [who the party will meet after the barbarians] will speak the common language fluently, so failure to figure out the metaphor puzzle will not completely hamper the party in the future. Rather, it's a fun way to emphasize the otherwise and to give some XP in a way which isn't just "we killed the monster").

[Telonius]

"It's a dark corner," "The tavern is open." ("Hello, nice to meet you.")
"I mean to do what's most dangerous." ("Good-bye," "Let's split the party.")
"I'm taking a gift from the Drow they can't use." ("I'm going to sleep.")
"Blue warrior." ("I'm hungry.")
"Seems like a very small rock." ("The boat looks seaworthy.")
"We'll send her to a place evil can't touch her." ("Let's try to fool that bad guy.")

[Segev]

"There is a hole in your mind." (You're forgetting something.)

"Bad Wolf." (Run. In terror. Right now. Why aren't you already running?)

"It's only a model." (That's the city there, on the horizon.)

"You made Nami cry." (I'm going to break you, your house, and everything you hold dear, and you deserve it.)

"Reapers like apples." (He's dead, Jim.)

[Telonius]

"Martin will write of this." (The most serious threat possible; implies the destruction of everything the person holds dear).
"He's gone to be with Ben." ("He's dead dead, and not coming back.")

[Karoht]

Do what Aristotle did.
Assume that all 'barbarian' languages are just "BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR BAR."
In fact you should absolutely reference that.
Also this.
Wait for it... the Mongols! (www.youtube.com/watch?v=szxPar0BcMo
)
At least once or twice.


As far as the 'reference-fu language' is concerned (seriously, players should record the language on their character sheets just like that if/when they learn it) you probably need to establish enough source material in universe for them to reference. Perhaps hand the players a book, some great 600 page long saga that tells the tales you are going to reference.

As a bit of a backup to this language perhaps being too difficult to interpret, or your players just having an off night, let them use the book to make an int roll for clues or clarifications on what the person is saying. Basically, this is the person trying to quickly google the references to get some context.


And if that doesn't work. Relate all metaphors back to Yurts. Everyone understands a Yurt.

[gr8artist]

Could we go back and put in the source of the references? I'm curious as to where some of them came from.

These aren't quotes, because I'm not very good at pop-culture references, but are descriptions of memorable circumstances.
"In the Wolf's mouth" - Something surrendered or given up, a reference to Tyr and the Fenris Wolf.
"Without his string" - Lost, without a sense of direction or location, a reference to (insert name of the guy who killed the minotaur) and Ariadne's thread.
"With only his 300" - Overcoming great opposition or overwhelming odds, a reference to Leonidas and his 300.
"As a boulder atop the mountain" - An impossible task or unachievable goal, a reference to Sisyphus pushing his boulder to the top of a pointed mountain.
"Drinking from the Lethe" - Sleeping, resting, or dying (drinking deep), a reference to the river Lethe in the greek underworld
"As a snake in a garden" - Fooling someone or lying to them, a reference to Adam and Eve being fooled by the snake.
"As if to make the walls fall" - A plan that could never work or is doomed to failure, also following strange instructions, a reference to the walls of Jericho.

Also, people in the tribe would need the ability to form new sentences to tell others what they'd done. References like these are good for describing situations, or telling about a current event that's like something from history, but couldn't really be used to say "My son fell and broke his ankle, and I don't know how to help him."

Edit: we should also be able to pull up a few from Firefly
"I am a leaf on the wind" - I am concentrating very hard. Do not disturb me. Alternatively, I'm busy flying gracefully right now.

[eastmabl]

As far as the 'reference-fu language' is concerned (seriously, players should record the language on their character sheets just like that if/when they learn it) you probably need to establish enough source material in universe for them to reference. Perhaps hand the players a book, some great 600 page long saga that tells the tales you are going to reference.

As a bit of a backup to this language perhaps being too difficult to interpret, or your players just having an off night, let them use the book to make an int roll for clues or clarifications on what the person is saying. Basically, this is the person trying to quickly google the references to get some context.

Given the amount of allusions that are dropped in a standard session, I don't foresee them having an off night when it comes to making/understanding references like these. Nevertheless, the book would be a good way to reward them for remembering to investigate where they are going before going there (sometimes, this is forgotten). "These people communicate through stories. You'll probably want this." /throws 600 page tome.

And thank you for all the references so far, and keep them coming!

[NoACWarrior]

If keeping with the TNG theme - only people and places are listed in those sayings.

Basically - Iron Man at new york city. Private Ryan at Ramelle.
Iron man makes a great chance at his own life to stop the invasion with a nuke.
Private Ryan is saved by his comrades and defends the last bridge for the invasion at Ramelle.

But these things have no meaning a a real dnd game...
You might want the players to use knowledge history to understand the slogans.

[Taelas]

Quick way to do it would be to reference events that the barbarians' gods have been through.

But really, I never thought the communication in "Darmok" was feasible in the first place. It always seemed far too clunky to have evolved naturally.

[Mootsmcboots]

"Yes - what is best in life." This would reference the Conan the Barbarian movie, where the answer might be "the open steppe, a fleet horse, falcons at your wrist, and the wind in your hair" or "to crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women."

First thing, I like your Darmok like allegory idea. One caveat;

Ok, so I am going to be a bit of a Conan stickler on behalf of Robert E Howard.

As much as I love the movies with all of that cheesyness, this is one of my least favourite quotes from anything related to Conan.

It comes from no Conan book, and if I recall correctly it's a Gengis Khan quote?

Sadly I know that most other Conan quotes, especially the Howard stuff will be lost on most people, but he's so much more awesome than that quote makes him seem. So shallow, so bland.

That line robs Conan of any personality beyond blood crazy barbarian. That's not him.

A fav of mine:

"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing"

Also, the Mongols are always the exception. DFTBA

[eastmabl]

Quick way to do it would be to reference events that the barbarians' gods have been through.

But really, I never thought the communication in "Darmok" was feasible in the first place. It always seemed far too clunky to have evolved naturally.

I appreciate this (and other comments), because it helps me round out the way I present it to my players.

The thought behind this is not that the only way the barbarians communicate is in allusion - they have their own tribal language for that. The problem is that no one understands "BAR BAR BAR BARBARA ANN" unless you're a Beach Boy.

However, these barbarians do communicate in common as well. They are so set in their ways that in communicating with the outside world, they do it in their own way. The outside world must accommodate for them when talking in the common language.

And please, keep the advice coming!

[lsfreak]

But really, I never thought the communication in "Darmok" was feasible in the first place. It always seemed far too clunky to have evolved naturally.

You're right. As presented in TNG, it makes no sense because the metaphor requires a normal language to work off of in the first place. That is, you have to have the words to describe what happened with Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra before "Darmok and Jalad at Tenagra" even has any meaning. If somehow they don't have that, then "Darmok and Jalad at Tenagra" is really just a single (extremely clunky) word, likely to be reduced in the future, in the same way that our "God be with you" is now most commonly "bye." The closest real-word example I know of to what the OP is trying to do is a case of written words from one language used to represent another language's spoken word, essentially creating a number of logograms [made-up example: language A has kisama "king" and language B has dzahe "king;" dzahe is spelled in language B not with the letters "dz" "a" "h" "e" but the logogram "kisama"]. The only time I know of it happening was when cuneiform was still big, plus the Pahlavi script where Aramaic words were imported into Middle Persian. [The Japanese/Korean borrowing of Chinese was rather different.]

The OP is doing something vaguely similar, but instead of language A's writing being imported into language B as a logogram, it's Common lexicon, grammar and syntax being imported to make the barbarian's metaphors into lexical words, without the barbarians otherwise understanding Common. I'll just point out to the OP that this is staggeringly unlikely. So don't try and rationalize it, just handwave, like you do that a sword is worth a pound and a half of gold or that a couple size increases doesn't cause a terrible death by asphyxia/stroke/skeletal collapse. It's not worth the effort or unintended consequences to try and rationalize how that could possibly be the case.

[dysprosium]

To reiterate what has been said, the Tamarians (the aliens in "Darmok") referenced their own culture and stories. Part of the reason why the Federation could not understand them in the first place was there was no reference point for them to work with. You could come up with a history or accomplishments for these barbarians and phrases just might flow on their own.

"Shaka when the walls fell, his eyes wide!" the moment of understanding. (I'm sure I misquoted that from the show--been too long since I've seen that episode.)

And for other ideas:
"When Motok slew the beast!" After a great chief took down a large threat.
"Motok's feast for the ages!" Could be used to celebrate anything or remember a great feast.
"Like a seedless spring" Could be used for representing low birth rate or anything with diminishing returns.

I will try to think of some more.

[Prime32]

"Shaka when the walls fell, his eyes wide!" the moment of understanding. (I'm sure I misquoted that from the show--been too long since I've seen that episode.)Have a compilation (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Tamarian_language)

[dysprosium]

Thank you Prime32! I knew I messed up the quote.

"Sokath, his eyes uncovered!" the moment of understanding.

[Jeff the Green]

I appreciate this (and other comments), because it helps me round out the way I present it to my players.

The thought behind this is not that the only way the barbarians communicate is in allusion - they have their own tribal language for that. The problem is that no one understands "BAR BAR BAR BARBARA ANN" unless you're a Beach Boy.

However, these barbarians do communicate in common as well. They are so set in their ways that in communicating with the outside world, they do it in their own way. The outside world must accommodate for them when talking in the common language.

And please, keep the advice coming!

This makes me wonder at their motives. Because if you're at all interested in interacting with outsiders this is a horrible way to do it, and as TNG shows, a good way to get yourselves exterminated by accident. The only thing I can think of is that they've had a bad brush with colonialism in the past because they control access to some resource, and decided to force outsiders to learn their entire corpus in order to trade.

...and I'm still skeptical at that idea. How would an outsider even learn those stories?

[eastmabl]

This makes me wonder at their motives. Because if you're at all interested in interacting with outsiders this is a horrible way to do it, and as TNG shows, a good way to get yourselves exterminated by accident. The only thing I can think of is that they've had a bad brush with colonialism in the past because they control access to some resource, and decided to force outsiders to learn their entire corpus in order to trade.

...and I'm still skeptical at that idea. How would an outsider even learn those stories?

Please understand that I'm not following the plot line of the TNG episode as dicta; I gave a strikingly different example for what I'd like to do in the first post.

The party and the barbarians share a common history. To give a quick history of the world as it is relevant:

- 500 years ago, the majority of the continent was ruled by one human empire with other racial kingdoms allied with them. This alliance kept the savage species under control and other fell species underground.
- A necromancer fell in with the heir to the mountain dwarf kingdom, and the two took over the dwarven kingdom. The necromancer then killed the heir, raised the dwarven graveyards and marched them on the human empire.
- The empire and other kingdoms beat back the necromancer's army, but at great cost to the human empire + kingdoms.
-The human kingdom splintered into five kingdoms, one of which was steppeland. The steppeland had a connection to the Underdark, and the new ruler (and the residents) of the steppeland could not protect their cities from attack by the drow. As their cities were sacked and burned, the residents of the steppeland (the barbarians, in this case) took to horseback and began a nomadic lifestyle, where they could avoid the drow and other denizens of the Underdark.

Because they were both members of the human empire five hundred years ago, they share some similar stories, as well as a common language. However, five hundred years is a long time, so often, the only relation back to the human empire is through these stories.

[Lord of Shadows]

Here is an idea...

Long ago an explorer/scholar/scout/whatever traveled among these Barbarians. He learned this strange way that they communicated, and wrote down all their legends/references in a tome, which he then used to better communicate with them. This explorer eventually left the Barbarians for some reason, and his "Tome of Darmok" (just a suggestion) was lost.

Now fast forward to the present day. An adventuring party either:


a) knows they are going to come into contact with these strange people, find out about and seek out the Tome

or

b) the Tome ended up back with the Barbarians (and perhaps is now a holy relic/cursed item and no one is allowed to get near it)

Want some further twists?


a) the Barbarians can't read, so they have no idea what is in the Tome, nor can they help anyone else find anything in it. There aren't even any pictures (maybe this is an "enhancement" the party can add to the Tome)

b) this explorer's exploits likely became a part of the "Darmokian" language, but they do not appear anywhere in the Tome, since they were added after he departed. Imagine a Barbarian using one of those references, and the party's "linguistics expert" frantically turning through pages in vain...

c) what was the reason the explorer left the Barbarians? (This may relate to something in your campaign)

Enjoy...
.

[Telonius]

"This is just a show. This is just a show." ("Calm down and don't overthink it." Especially useful for discussion of his own culture and method of speech).

[Thanatosia]

"Rodents of Unusual size? I don't think they exist." ("I'm about to be attacked by a Giant Rat, please help")

[eastmabl]

"Rodents of Unusual size? I don't think they exist." ("I'm about to be attacked by a Giant Rat, please help")

A good one. I hadn't thought about the intensely quotable nature of the Princess Bride.

[Akal Saris]

Thank you Prime32! I knew I messed up the quote.

"Sokath, his eyes uncovered!" the moment of understanding.

Star Trek trivia moment! In the script for the episode, that line is accompanied in parentheses with some Greek: (Eureka!)

As a sidenote, I'd be careful of using Princess Bride or Monty Python, because that can easily derail my gaming group for 30 minutes of giggling :P

To the topic at hand, Game of Thrones has a ton of short catch-phrase quotes that many gaming groups might recognize.

"You know nothing, ___" - Don't make assumptions!
"Winter is coming" - general ominous reminder that work is not yet finished, the worst is yet to come, etc.
"Dark wings, dark words" - bad news

Some more which you might create your own meaning from:
“Different roads sometimes lead to the same castle.”
“Nothing burns like the cold.”
“If I look back I am lost.”
“Every flight begins with a fall.”
“Laughter is poison to fear.”
"The dragon has three heads"

Or you could always go the Star Trek route:
"Stark and Baratheon, at the Trident!"
"Robb at the Crossngs, a red wedding"

[Pex]

"Lucy in the sky with diamonds." - at the time of the full moon

"We all live in a yellow sinking boat." - cooperate or we both die

"I want to hold your hand." - peace

"Ain't she sweet." - prostitute

"Being for the benefit of Mr. Kite." - Nice weather we're having.

"Blue jay way" - a mile's walk

"The continuing story of Bungalow Bill" - A bore.

"Fixing a hole" - redemption, atonement

"The fool on the hill" - Caught with your pants down.

"A hard day's night" - snus snus

"I'll follow the sun." - I'm going to sleep.

"Lonesome tears in my eyes." - You're beautiful.

"Piggies" - Smart

"She came in through the bathroom window" - I leave it to the reader's imagination

"Strawberry fields forever" - He's dead, Jim.

"Watching rainbows" - Idiot

:smallcool:

"How I met your mother" - To a tell a story that has nothing to do with what you say the story is about. :smallbiggrin:

[Telonius]

"This was a day to celebrate life." ("This was an utter travesty. Let us never speak of it again." Reference: Star Wars holiday special).

[Slipperychicken]

So what happens to all this planning if the PCs hire a translator? Or if they get a Pearl of Tongues (600gp, MiC)?

[Karoht]

So what happens to all this planning if the PCs hire a translator? Or if they get a Pearl of Tongues (600gp, MiC)?Same thing that happened in Star Trek to the universal translator. They hear the language of their choice, but don't necessarily grasp the metaphor due to lack of context.

[Talya]

Whedon Edition:

"I've got a theory." - Dire Rabbits are a major threat in the area.
"It would have been like Woodstock!" - The vampires are pretty normal here.
"Guess I'm just a good man." - You should rough up the enemy a little. (Edit: Follow up with "Well, I'm okay," if you want to rough them up even more.)
"I can kill you with my brain." - Her Power Point Reserve is not yet depleted.
"He was adopted." - This is a vile enemy who requires your best efforts to defeat.

[Karoht]

@Translators
Perhaps the Barbarians are offended by such things (especially magical ones), as they feel it "robs them of their voice." It removes the need for context and understanding of their metaphors, which they deem key to understanding them as people, critical to keeping personal communication personal rather than perfunctionatory.
Actual translators exist among the Barbarian tribe. They are more like envoys and storytellers. Bards, basically. The Barbarians teach them their language and send them out into the world to discover other languages and stories. But any time someone wants to translate the native barbarian language to something like Elven, the translator supplies them with the stories first, and a bit of background on them and what they mean. Only then will they translate the barbarian language to elven.
The elves in audience hear "BAR BAR BAR BARBARI ANN" /sorry, had to steal that again
Which translates to "Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra. Chokra, when the wall fell."
And the audience knows what those stories are, so they comprehend.
It also allows the Barbarians to pass secret messages, simply by not telling certain stories to outsiders.

To represent them, I would dig up an Intelligence based Bard (or some kind of equivilent), or perhaps a Wisdom based Bard. Certain types of Cleric will also work in a pinch.

Just some thoughts, more fluff related though.

Also, I am reminded of an amusing moment from the film Shanghai Noon.
"No no no, you said 'wet shirt not break' not 'piss shirt bend bars' " during a jailbreak.

[Slipperychicken]

Same thing that happened in Star Trek to the universal translator. They hear the language of their choice, but don't necessarily grasp the metaphor due to lack of context.

So you're saying that a person who knows both riddle-speak and Common cannot possibly translate meaning from one to the other? That seems unlikely.


Even if the subtleties aren't easy to convey in Common, the translator could still do his best to explain them. That should be sufficient to carry a group of travelers through without too many problems.

[Gwaednerth]

So you're saying that a person who knows both riddle-speak and Common cannot possibly translate meaning from one to the other? That seems unlikely.


Even if the subtleties aren't easy to convey in Common, the translator could still do his best to explain them. That should be sufficient to carry a group of travelers through without too many problems.

The problem is not translating the literal words, i's that the language itself is composed entirely of idioms. Google translate can tell me the translation of the literal words "lache mes baskets" (leave my shoes) but it cannot tell me that that means the equivalent of "leave me alone"

[eastmabl]

So you're saying that a person who knows both riddle-speak and Common cannot possibly translate meaning from one to the other? That seems unlikely.


Even if the subtleties aren't easy to convey in Common, the translator could still do his best to explain them. That should be sufficient to carry a group of travelers through without too many problems.

As the OP: If they think to hire a translator or use magic to solve the puzzle, it's less fun but certainly an option that they would get the XP for solving. I'm not going to railroad them into my preconceived notions of how the adventure must go.

Knowing my group, they're probably going to focus more on the language they can understand (the allusions) than the language they cannot.

EDIT: There are two languages in play - the secret barbarian tongue (SBT) and the Common-based idiomic language (CIL). The barbarians speak the secret language with each other, but communicate with outsiders using Common.* If the party can use Comprehend Languages to understand SBT, they will have the underlying context to better understand what is said in CIL. Similarly, a translator would play a similar role in helping to understand.

That being said, comprehend languages would not assist in listening to CIL alone, since it gives the literal meaning of the other language, and (for example) "When in Rome, do as Vandals" imparts the meaning from the context.

*I'll analogize to the Two Towers, where the ents are talking in Ent about the hobbits, but Treebeard comes back to the Merry and Pippin and tells them that the ents decided the hobbits are not goblins.

Keep 'em coming! You're being a big help.

[lsfreak]

But at what point does an idiom get translated? I mean, je ne sais pas literally refers to walking (as does every other negative with pas), but just means "I don't know". Is it translated that way? When someone is taken aback, is it translated as their sails being thrown against the mast? Or taking a vacation about seizing? If I do something on Sunday, is it translated with the idea of being atop a particular rotation of the planet (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean)? Maybe you want to distinguish between idioms that are less opaque in meaning, but how messy would things be if sayings like "getting to the bottom of X" or "checkmate" or "fool's errand" couldn't be translated in-context?

TL;DR it's a mess and like I said before, handwave stuff. Trying to justify why pearls of speech wouldn't work is just a total cluster****. Either say they do or say they don't, but recognize the latter makes no sense at all.

[Karoht]

The pearl might be fine for you hearing. It might even translate the idioms for you, maybe it doesn't.
How can the pearl translate what you are saying into what effectively works as slang?

I say, rule that they work 100% fine. Use the barbarians early in the campaign when the players don't have the money to afford the pearl. If they can afford one, so what?

I am fond of the idea that the barbarians might be offended by the pearls or any translator not sanctioned by them. Which can be smoothed out by a diplomacy check, maybe not. That's probably the best justification I can come up with against the pearls. Now how hard are the barbarians going to look for the pearls on visitors? Not very, if at all, so it will likely be a moot point.

[eastmabl]

I say, rule that they work 100% fine. Use the barbarians early in the campaign when the players don't have the money to afford the pearl. If they can afford one, so what?

They're at fourth level (save one who is still third level), so it is likely the case.

Really, I'm concerned with making sure this stays fun for the players (most of whom like illusions, even if they dislike puzzles), so having more allusions at my disposal should hopefully keep it fun.

Worst comes to worst, they don't communicate with barbarians but instead make contact with their tribal leaders, who do speak Common fluently.