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View Full Version : Operation: Make My Friend Not A Bad DM



Menevalgor
2014-04-01, 12:44 PM
As the title implies, one of my friends is a really bad DM. And I mean REALLY bad. The list of dungeon mastering faux pas that my friend (let's call him Richard). I'll give you guys a couple examples just to show what we're dealing with. Now I know that the solution to these problems is usually just to not play in his games, but as he's a friend of mine, there are times when I'm obligated to (he really likes to DM, and tries to frequently). He told me recently that as a birthday present, I get to choose the subject matter with no limitations of a game that he will run. My first thought was to dodge it, but since I get to choose the subject matter of the game, I want to see if I can make one that forces him to improve as a DM, or see the error of his ways, or something like that. So now I ask you guys, O Great Forum Readers, is there a way he can be saved, or should we just not let him DM?

A few years back, Richard tried running a campaign. Things went fine except for the ridiculous amount of railroading, but all of us in the game were willing to deal with it. We figured that he was just new, and that we could help him along as he learned how to DM, and everything would go well despite the rocky start. This hope went out the window when we come to the infamous Gunk incident. Gunk was my brother's character at the time. A half-orc fighter with 18/93 strength (we mostly play AD&D) who had a wonderful backstory and a penchant for two-shotting bosses. He was by far the most beloved character in the party. One session, where we were far behind the enemy nations front lines looking for a lost magic weapon, we were attacked by a swarm of monsters that were vastly more powerful than our party. We started out surrounded, so there was no chance of escape, and at the end of combat, Gunk (and maybe one other person) was the only person still conscious. Immediately thereafter, a patrol of soldiers (all of which were 4th level for some reason) surrounded Gunk and demanded surrender. Gunk was convinced to (the DM may have actually said "you have no choice" in character) and we were all taken to the middle of the army's camp for interrogation. After a while, we came up with a plan to escape. I forget the exact details, but it involved disguises and sneakiness, and had a good chance of working. But then one of the prisoner NPC's informs us that HE has a plan to escape, and we have no choice but to take it now (he flat out tells us that other plans but his won't work). After a bit of arguing we agree to go with him, and we almost instantly get locked into combat with basically infinite soldiers. We all naturally try to escape, but he flat out tells my brother "Gunk can't get away". After a few novel rounds of combat, he runs out of hitpoints and "dies heroically." He then asks to keep the character sheet. I asked him about this incident, and he said "well it wouldn't have made sense if everyone made it out alive". The campaign died a couple sessions after.

This incident is probably his most not-OK moment. We recently started college and began running our own games there, and would tell each other about how they're going. He is currently running a game with entirely new players. As in, these people had never played D&D before, much less any other tabletop roleplaying game. He is also running this with two parties, due to the number of people in the game. Recently in his (extraordinarily deadly) campaign, the second party got captured by some enemy soldiers (seeing a pattern?) and were brought to a city, where they were forced to fight in a gladiatorial arena (he told me he didn't expect any of them to survive). Surprisingly, they smash the monsters and baddies that they have to fight, which arouses the interest of one of the higher-ups in the Big Bad Evil Organization. He gives the party a choice: they can either allow themselves to be charmed and put under his control, or die. Now normally, this would be a great roleplaying experience, pretending to be evil and trying to fool the evil guys and work around the party members who may have failed their saving throw; however, Richard told the players that the bad guy would know if they tried to resist the charm, and that they couldn't even get a saving throw (he really has a problem with omnipotent NPC's). This even applied to an elf, who in AD&D has 90% resistance to charm spells. The entire party was thus mind controlled by this one guy, and then forced to go try and assassinate the other party of the game (who was meanwhile going through some seriously bad stuff with a deck of many things, including one player choosing for his character to commit suicide due to the repercussions). Eventually, party 2 met up with party 1 and kicked the s**t out of them. A band of wizards then teleported in and killed the guy controlling party 2 (who I assume was with them, but they weren't allowed to kill him or something), and then proclaimed them free of the charm. This is especially bad in my opinion, because I think he's ruining the game for a lot of potential players.

The Oni
2014-04-01, 01:06 PM
...The problem here, really, is there's nothing anyone can do but you. And by you I mean you all, collectively, the people he plays with. You tell him "Hey, we feel like we don't have a lot of player agency here and we're kind of just along for the ride, could you maybe be a little less Blue Bolty and a little more stage-setty?" And if that doesn't work, the next time he pulls it hand him your character sheet and tell him to run it himself.

Red Fel
2014-04-01, 01:14 PM
As the title implies, one of my friends is a really bad DM. And I mean REALLY bad. The list of dungeon mastering faux pas that my friend (let's call him Richard). I'll give you guys a couple examples just to show what we're dealing with. Now I know that the solution to these problems is usually just to not play in his games, but as he's a friend of mine, there are times when I'm obligated to (he really likes to DM, and tries to frequently). He told me recently that as a birthday present, I get to choose the subject matter with no limitations of a game that he will run. My first thought was to dodge it, but since I get to choose the subject matter of the game, I want to see if I can make one that forces him to improve as a DM, or see the error of his ways, or something like that. So now I ask you guys, O Great Forum Readers, is there a way he can be saved, or should we just not let him DM?

Bad DMing is like many other bad habits - the first step is admitting you have a problem. If your friend Richard doesn't acknowledge the existence of a problem, you can't "force[] him to improve as a DM, or see the error of his ways, or something like that." You can't force enlightenment on an unwilling subject.

That said, you've said he's your friend. And he offered to let you choose the subject of a game as a present. So we can infer that he is at least trying, and seems to care about his players (or at least you). So let's assume he's not an irredeemable sub-human husk of monstrosity, and that he's amenable to reason.

Have you tried talking to him about it?

I know it sounds too simple, but so many - so very, very many - problems between players, or between players and DMs, stem from a lack of communication, and can be neatly fixed simply by talking. Polite, civil conversation.

My advice? Come up with a simple list, sort of a gentleman's agreement. Things like "The DM shall not take control of any PC's actions," or "The DM shall not create unwinnable scenarios," or "No NPC shall have an 'I win' button," or things like that. Provide examples of things Richard has done in the past that you've liked, and things that he's done that you've found detrimental and would ask that he change. Always, always, be polite, supportive, and constructive in your remarks. Consider the "plus-delta" strategy - start with the good things he does (the plus), follow with things you would change (the delta) - not bad things, not negative stuff, just things you would change - and then conclude with more positives.

Suggest that he implement a feedback system. After each session, he should endeavor to ask the players what they liked and disliked, and what he can do to make things more enjoyable for everyone.

Be advised, these things go both ways. In your earlier example, you had a PC who would two-shot bosses - maybe he felt he had to give you an unwinnable encounter because you were steamrolling over everything else. Be prepared, because he might have issues with how you play the game, just as you have issues with how he runs it.

Menevalgor
2014-04-01, 01:34 PM
Thanks for the replies. I have tried talking to him about this in the past, and he's been pretty unresponsive. I (and I think other people who have played with him) have given him some points where we thought we didn't have any choice in the game, but he either tries to pin his mistakes on other players (saying that we have choices we may not have considered) or kinda shrugged it off. At one point I think he said that he would consider what we brought up, but nothing really came of it.

Friv
2014-04-01, 01:52 PM
Part of me wants to have you suggest that he run a game in which the GM obviously has no actual agency (or even a game which is actually GM-less, such as Fiasco), but that might be a little too passive-aggressive.

I think you may be stuck. If your friend won't admit his faults, he can't fix them. You can't really trick someone into being a better DM.

I mean, you can always go the route of flat-out saying that you are uninterested in that birthday present because you don't like his DMing style and don't expect it to be a fun evening, but that's moving straight into confrontation territory, so YMMV.

Menevalgor
2014-04-01, 03:28 PM
Thanks everyone. The more I think about this, the more I think that the best thing to do would be to explain that the issue that we all have with his DMing, especially in the new light of what we've heard of the game he's been running in college, and hope for the best.

TriForce
2014-04-01, 03:53 PM
Well, step one of changing a bad DM, is telling him he is a bad DM.

normally, i would just advice to have a normal talk with him about it, and give him some advice, but i see you already did that and it didnt work, so i am recommanding a more "blunt" approach

Tell him you guys are tired of his allpowerful NPC, that you want EVERY NPC to follow normal rules instead of having plot powers, tell him you dont want to hear "you cant do that" without anything to back it up, tell him you dont want NPC's making plans for the party and lastly, tell him that you will not accept as much railroading any more.

next, judging from your last post, he will probably keep doing the things you all dislike.
the exact moment that happens, stop the game entirely, and explain calmly to him that he is doing it. i get the impression this guy really does not realize his mistakes, and they need to be pointed out to him (in a friendly manner, no need to make this hostile) give him a chance to explain his viewpoint, but if he blames others for anything, just tell him that his game simply is not fun the way he is making it.
keep on doing this for at least 1-2 sessions.

if after that time, he STILL did not change the way his game is played, i would judge him to be a hopeless case, and i would stop playing with him if i were you.

kyoryu
2014-04-01, 04:47 PM
Have him run a few games of Dungeon World *by the rules*.

Eonas
2014-04-01, 05:00 PM
Have him run a few games of Dungeon World *by the rules*.

Yeah, or Donjon.

Kaun
2014-04-01, 05:35 PM
Have him run a few games of Dungeon World *by the rules*.

Thats really not a bad idea.

I would just front foot it and tell him... Your style of GMing and my preferences as a player don't mesh well.

I do this with my friends and i encourage them to do it with me.

You need to get the issues out in the open, otherwise they will never resolve.

lytokk
2014-04-02, 07:12 AM
My thoughts, in regard to the Gunk incident at least, is that he was dealing with a difficult character, that being one he couldn't challenge, so he needed to get rid of that character, albeit in the worst way, but thats the thought I have regarding that.

Has he ever played in anyone else's game or has he always been the DM? Some of it might have to do with he's never seen DMing done right, so all he can do is do it the way he knows how to do. Maybe he'd truthfully just be more comfortable on the other side of the screen. If he's always inserting NPCs who have the solution, maybe he just wants to play, but thinks he wants to DM.

Just some thoughts from me.

Friv
2014-04-02, 11:01 AM
Thanks everyone. The more I think about this, the more I think that the best thing to do would be to explain that the issue that we all have with his DMing, especially in the new light of what we've heard of the game he's been running in college, and hope for the best.

This game he was running in college didn't involve a cheese forge (http://irolledazero.blogspot.ca/2013/09/we-do-something-significant-part-3.html), by any chance?

(I kid, I kid. This guy doesn't sound nearly that bad.)

Jay R
2014-04-02, 11:08 AM
The first step is to explain why you don't like what he's doing now. That's your job.

The second step is for him to decide he wants to change. That's his job.

Until those happen, there is no third step. Most people with bad DMs never get past step one. Many DMs whose friends actually do step one, nonetheless never decide to do step two.

Get those done (if you can). Then come back and tell us what he said in the process, and how he said it, and we may have more advice for you.

Sebastrd
2014-04-02, 01:18 PM
Don't just tell him he's a bad DM, because that will immediately put him on the defensive. Keep the focus on you. Tell him that you don't enjoy his games for x, y, z reasons and tell him what you'd prefer. State your criticisms in terms of you feelings and perceptions, so that he can't try to logic his way out of things. You're already at an advantage, because he approached you for a game, and I'm guessing he'll be willing to give a little to get you back.

Menevalgor
2014-04-02, 11:30 PM
Thanks again for the responses! You all have been very helpful!
Has he ever played in anyone else's game or has he always been the DM? Some of it might have to do with he's never seen DMing done right, so all he can do is do it the way he knows how to do. Maybe he'd truthfully just be more comfortable on the other side of the screen. If he's always inserting NPCs who have the solution, maybe he just wants to play, but thinks he wants to DM.

Yes he has been in a player in many games, some with highly experienced DMs and even some with me as the DM, so he's seen a variety of styles of how to do it. I don't think that the problem is him not seeing a variety of DMs but more that he sees every aspect of a game as being part of a film in which he's the director/producer/writer rather than something cooperative.

I'm definitely going to try and reason with him, with a lot of the points you've mentioned. Hopefully he will see reason...

lytokk
2014-04-03, 06:31 AM
Using the filming metaphor, He's the guy who came up with the original concept, being kept on the staff as a consultant. The PC's are the writers and actors. While he may step in to direct a scene or two, he needs to leave it up to the actual writers.

At least in my mind.

DontEatRawHagis
2014-04-03, 06:38 AM
Thanks again for the responses! You all have been very helpful!

Yes he has been in a player in many games, some with highly experienced DMs and even some with me as the DM, so he's seen a variety of styles of how to do it. I don't think that the problem is him not seeing a variety of DMs but more that he sees every aspect of a game as being part of a film in which he's the director/producer/writer rather than something cooperative.

I'm definitely going to try and reason with him, with a lot of the points you've mentioned. Hopefully he will see reason...

I doubt you'll get him to. I've seen this happen with a few DM's in my area. In fact my first experience with 3.5e was with a guy who has DM'ed since Middle School(now College age). As soon as I brought a monk he was dedicated to killing my character so I could play a wizard because he didn't leave any items in the world for monks.

He had bad improvisational skills and couldn't deal with the players not playing how he would play. Quick example he got mad at us for not examining every area in the dungeon, but when we got to the maze part of the dungeon he was surprised that we tried to cover the entire maze. Of course we are going to go over the maze with a fine tooth comb you told us that we were missing something in a previous room and that we weren't thorough enough.

Another example was telling the Paladin they had to run head long into a demon temple(suicide mission) because of his alignment and saying that his detect alignment ability wouldn't work half the time.

In the end he rage quitted our party and our characters are forever stuck in that dungeon.

GoblinGilmartin
2014-04-03, 06:53 AM
The real issue is that he isn't being responsive to the players. It's a game, not a movie or book, and if no one's having a lot of fun, then he is not doing his job. You might want to tell him that (in less confront-y terms).

I'd really like to hear how your friend responds to the suggestions put forth here.

Daer
2014-04-03, 07:57 PM
as said pretty much comes down to talking to him but addition to that might be good if you could get him watch some other people playing dnd.. youtube and twitch ( for example rollplay on itmeJP channel ) have now days quite lot videos , might help him understand how to DM better.

nedz
2014-04-03, 08:37 PM
Talking to him is the solution, but it will only work if he listens.

Try discussing it over some beers ?

You could use something like a foil of describing a (possibly fictional) DM who runs in a better style. If you simply criticise his style then it will probably not get through. Now you know this guy better than any of us, so you are in a better position to know what will work with him — take a note of how other people influence him.

Menevalgor
2014-04-07, 01:08 AM
So today my friend and I had a brief discussion about the game he's running in college, so I figured I'd update you guys. Another character in the game died (this has a very high death rate) and I asked him if he ever got feedback from the players about what they liked/disliked about the game. I like to get a lot of feedback and find it really helpful when DMing. He said that "everyone said they were enjoying it" so if that's the case, then there's really nothing to be done in that situation. I do get the impression though that he doesn't think there's a problem, so that may be something to consider going forward.

Taffimai
2014-04-14, 10:58 AM
If you don't want to bring up his DMing again, I suggest playing Paranoia.

veti
2014-04-14, 06:03 PM
He said that "everyone said they were enjoying it" so if that's the case, then there's really nothing to be done in that situation. I do get the impression though that he doesn't think there's a problem, so that may be something to consider going forward.

"Everyone said they were enjoying it"? That's - not useful feedback, even if it is true, which seems pretty unlikely. I mean, in what circumstances would you expect that answer to come up?

"Hey, is everyone okay with how I'm running this game?" - asked to an audience of people with no prior roleplaying experience at the start of a session - what else are they going to say? To answer "no" to that, you'd pretty much have to be prepared to take over DMing yourself, which means you'd have to have a clear concept of how things might be different, and the confidence to dive in.

If your friend is at college, it seems very unlikely that there isn't an existing RP club/society, which would rapidly expose him to a much wider variety of games, players, and DMing styles. That's his best bet - exposure to many different RPing experiences, rather than being allowed to carry on as a little backwater of his own.