The love and hate of Miko and Thog

[Oxymoron]

I`ve been observing the forums for some days now, and I find it fascinating how biased people can be regarding their love or hate for one character.

People who love Miko are always trying to make excuses for her and people who hate Miko always trying to make her worse than she is. The same goes for Thog, though no one really hates him I think.

First of, I think Miko is a great character whether she is hero or a villain. Yeah, she is a bitch but she`s also cool in a psychotic way. I think she will make a great addition to the Linear Guild as a deluded blackguard as Belkars opposite (someone who dosen`t die in five strips). To those of you who love her: Keep loving her, she`s a great character, but she is a villain now. That dosen`t make her less cool. It was her destiny to fall. To those of you who hate her: don`t hate her. She makes a great addition to the comics.

So who is the worst villain? Thog or Miko? I suspect most would say Miko, because she has such an awful personality. After all Thog is funny and lovable. I find it amusing that the same people that says Miko was evil for killing the bandit lord and the sorceress (they attacked her with with deadly force forcrying out loud), somehow find it in their hearts to forgive Thog for slaughtering dozens of innocents. They even think he`s not evil , because he suppousedly doesn`t know what he`s doing. Lacking empathy doesn`t make you less evil, only more so. He could be CN, but so far I haven`t seen him doing anything good to "balance" him from from the evil alignment. People who love Thog just want him to be CN so that he can be redeemed and join the Order of the stick. I don`t agree with that. I love Thog as a villain because of all the crazy things he does. Making him a hero would destroy the character. Yes, he would still be funny and lovable, but after a while he would get boring. It`s not like he would be allowed to do so much havoc as before.

I don`t hate or love Miko or Thog or any other character in the comic, I just like them for what they are or will become.

[Sesquedoodle]

Miko is the ONE villain in the comic who is played straight. Think about it. Xykon, Redcloak and the MITD are pretty goofy, the Linear Guild is a funny concept to begin with (at least in my opinion) and Nale's overcomplicated plans and slight incompetance make it funnier. Miko is... serious. She's never funny except when she's reacting to less serious characters--Roy is often funny in the same way.

But Thog is inherantly a 'funny villain'. He's a psychopathic half-orc with a lower INT than Elan, but he's also sweet and lovable and likes puppies. Come on, the concept is funny!

I think that's part of why Thog is more popular than Miko--and, for that matter, why Xykon and Redcloak and Nale and all the other villains are more popular. They're funny, she's not. She was never supposed to be funny, methinks.

[Sir_Norbert]

I at least don't try to make excuses for Miko. She is what she is -- a mixture of faults and virtues -- and her virtues make her just sympathetic enough -- to me at least -- to make me care about how her story arc develops, whether she'll learn to recognise and overcome her faults or be led further and further towards madness.

And I agree with you that she is a villain now -- though I insist that she made the choice to become one in 409 when she turned on Hinjo, not in 406. After her attack on Hinjo, I can't empathise with her any more; she's too far gone into madness, whether temporary or not, for that. But her earlier sympatheticness still makes me pity her and hope she can recover and atone, even if it takes as long as the Haley/Elan story arc did.

In the thread that just got locked, someone was asking about why we Miko fans like her so much, so I'll repost here: she antagonises Belkar; she's on the side of good even if there are faults in the way she goes about it (nicely summarised in #223); she helps others in need, even at risk to herself; she's an enemy of Xykon and Redcloak and trying to foil their plans; she's intelligent and resourceful (as proved by the ogre fight and her escape from the forcecage) and courageous, although she lacks the wisdom to realise that sometimes fear is appropriate (Monster in the Darkness). The way she treats others, especially Vaarsuvius, is not always defensible, but, as Roy says in #219, she's had a very sheltered life, and if others were prepared to show a little more patience and goodwill in dealing with her, she might have turned out very differently. There's no question that she was deeply affected by Roy's cruelty to her in #251; I don't deny he had a point but he could have handled things in a more mature way. (Same goes for #408.)

[OOTS_Rules.]

I don't want Thog to join the OOTS. He is too good at being a villain, which makes him even funnier. Miko is the oppisite. She stinks at being a hero and is too serious. The answer: Make her a villain. Everybody knows it to n\be true.

[Lord Zentei]

I`ve been observing the forums for some days now, and I find it fascinating how biased people can be regarding their love or hate for one character.

People who love Miko are always trying to make excuses for her and people who hate Miko always trying to make her worse than she is. The same goes for Thog, though no one really hates him I think.

I'm going to second Sir_Norbert here: I do not make excuses for her recent descent into villainy, merely argue that she was not always evil, and deflect those criticisms of her past career that, as you say, are making her seem worse than she was/is (since that limits her tragedy).

Those last two reasons are perhaps what you are thinking of. Also, I argue that she could be redeemed in principle, though whether that will actually happen remains in the hands of the Giant.


First of, I think Miko is a great character whether she is hero or a villain. Yeah, she is a bitch but she`s also cool in a psychotic way.

Ah, good. :smallwink:


I think she will make a great addition to the Linear Guild as a deluded blackguard as Belkars opposite (someone who dosen`t die in five strips). To those of you who love her: Keep loving her, she`s a great character, but she is a villain now. That dosen`t make her less cool. It was her destiny to fall. To those of you who hate her: don`t hate her. She makes a great addition to the comics.

Took the words out of my keyboard. :smallwink: And to that, I add sympathy for a tragic character.


I don`t hate or love Miko or Thog or any other character in the comic, I just like them for what they are or will become.

While I say that this use of "love" is rather too strong, I'd agree otherwise. If you mean "love" as in "fanboy/fangirlism" then I agree, however.

[LynGrey]

I think Thog is a swtich hitter... if he joined the OoTS we sould be stepping on Roys toes as melee badass. Also you can't forget that Thog likes ice cream... if He was to join, he would be nothing more than he would be for the Linear Guild... the muscle of the group. Miko... i would just smack repeatily if i was a character in OoTS "BITCH get in line!!" over and over... ha! I think Thog will be best at the... switching sides do to being dupped.

[Oxymoron]

Love as in fanboy/fangirlism

I think its great that so many of you agree with me (although I hope not all of you do....)

[Jazzvader]

I`ve been observing the forums for some days now, and I find it fascinating how biased people can be regarding their love or hate for one character.

People who love Miko are always trying to make excuses for her and people who hate Miko always trying to make her worse than she is. The same goes for Thog, though no one really hates him I think.

First of, I think Miko is a great character whether she is hero or a villain. Yeah, she is a bitch but she`s also cool in a psychotic way. I think she will make a great addition to the Linear Guild as a deluded blackguard as Belkars opposite (someone who dosen`t die in five strips). To those of you who love her: Keep loving her, she`s a great character, but she is a villain now. That dosen`t make her less cool. It was her destiny to fall. To those of you who hate her: don`t hate her. She makes a great addition to the comics.

So who is the worst villain? Thog or Miko? I suspect most would say Miko, because she has such an awful personality. After all Thog is funny and lovable. I find it amusing that the same people that says Miko was evil for killing the bandit lord and the sorceress (they attacked her with with deadly force forcrying out loud), somehow find it in their hearts to forgive Thog for slaughtering dozens of innocents. They even think he`s not evil , because he suppousedly doesn`t know what he`s doing. Lacking empathy doesn`t make you less evil, only more so. He could be CN, but so far I haven`t seen him doing anything good to "balance" him from from the evil alignment. People who love Thog just want him to be CN so that he can be redeemed and join the Order of the stick. I don`t agree with that. I love Thog as a villain because of all the crazy things he does. Making him a hero would destroy the character. Yes, he would still be funny and lovable, but after a while he would get boring. It`s not like he would be allowed to do so much havoc as before.

I don`t hate or love Miko or Thog or any other character in the comic, I just like them for what they are or will become.

You're name suits you Oxy

[Demented]

For many people, liking Miko for what she is, IS hating her.

[Terraxos]

So who is the worst villain? Thog or Miko?
I don't know what counts as 'worst', but as I've argued elsewhere on this forum, Miko is certainly the most *successful* villain in the comic. You said it yourself: there are plenty of readers who actively hate Miko, while no one really hates Thog. (I mean, how could you? He's too cute!) If provoking a strong reaction in the fans is the mark of a good villain, then Miko definitely succeeds.

As Sesquedoodle said - it's probably because she's the only villain in the comic whose character is actually taken entirely seriously... every other 'evil' character so far is funny-evil rather than scary, realistic evil.

[Threeshades]

I think if I had to sort Miko and Thog to a certain alignment i would definately mike Thog a chaotic neutral. He doesnt really seem intelligent enoguh to make a difference between good and evil. So I dont think when he fights he is caring about wether he is helping someone or he is doing it for making others suffer. He just fights because its fun

:thog: Yay! Resisting arrest is fun!

Miko is a little harder to define. She is actually a misguided lawful good. She seems to me pretty much like Anakin Skywalker. She thinks she des right and brings justice while she actually is doing the opposite. That's why i think shes just turning Lawful Evil, since she is still trying to brin justice but shes clearly abandoning the "good" path since she just started to slash her way out of the palace.

Miko is not yet a villain at all but shes on the best way to become one. Thog is more of a henchman than a villain. He doesnt seem particularly evil to me. And i think villains are supposed to be evil.

[Jannex]

For me personally, at least, Miko has always been an object lesson first, and a character second. I see her as the archetypal embodiment of everything that can go horrifically wrong with the Lawful Good alignment. I've always held that Lawful Good, if taken to sufficient extremes, loops back around into profound evil. You can end up with someone who commits horrific acts, and is firm and steadfast in his belief that these actions serve the Greater Good, and are therefore justified.

I'm going to ramble philosophically for a bit about alignments. There is, perhaps inevitably, eventually a tension between Law and Good. The concept of Law is one of rules and strictures, by its very nature rigid and inflexible. (See the Clockwork Nirvana of Mechanus, for instance. Everything precise and exact, no deviations.) On the other hand, inherent in the concept of Good is compassion, mercy, and the capacity and willingness to consider extenuating circumstances and look at context. Good is not and cannot be "one size fits all." Certainly there is a similar conflict within Chaotic Good, when the championing of personal liberties and freedoms is pitted against the harm that can be brought to innocents as a result of someone else's choices, but the nature of Chaos, I think, allows the individual more ideological flexibility in attempting to resolve this tension. Law, on the other hand, comes with the ideological baggage that there is Only One Right Answer. And that, I think, is problematic for LG characters.

Speaking in very general terms, there are two ways in which a character can attempt to resolve the Lawful Good conflict; he can err on the side of Good, or err on the side of Law. The former case is mercy, is compassion, is open-mindedness. The latter case is where I see the opportunity for problems to arise.

Law has no purpose unless it supports another, more tangible ideal. It can support Good, or it can support Evil, and in each of these cases it has a practical purpose. However, Law by itself is meaningless... it isn't "for" anything. Again, consider Mechanus, where Law reigns alone, without Good or Evil. It has no real purpose other than to propogate itself. Consider, even, how the alignments are structured, grammatically. Law/Chaos becomes an adjective modifying Good/Evil, when both axial extremes are present; the Law/Chaos modifier describes how the character goes about being Good/Evil. Thus, choosing Law over Good (or Evil) does not serve the purpose of the alignment. When it comes down to a conflict between the ideal (Good) and the method of pursuing it (Law), I think the choice is obvious.

When a character makes the other choice, he is choosing his own methods ("my way") over compassion and respect for life. He is, in a sense, making himself the authority over what constitutes Good and Evil--rewriting the rules, and then following them to the letter, until they need to be rewritten again. I've always seen this as a possible pitfall of ideologies that can be described as "Lawful Good," if taken too far to their logical extreme. That way lies fanaticism, and atrocity. I've believed that since before I started reading Order of the Stick.

Thus, when Miko was introduced to the story, and her personality and ideology began to be developed, I immediately identified her as the archetype of "problematic Lawful Good." I've also read and enjoyed her characterization and development (as much as I've disliked her character on a personal level), but for me, it's always been obvious what she's represented, and where it will lead her. This isn't to say that the character can't change, can't realize what path she's walking, and undergo a shift in archetype (in fact, I think that would be interesting; I'm a fan of changing archetypes), but if she doesn't, I think it's obvious where she'll end up, and I think it will be the natural progression of who and what she's been since we first encountered her.

[Oxymoron]

Even though Thog clearly lacks empathy for other creatures (maybe not puppies?) I`m more convinced that he is CE than CN because of his actions. But we just have to wait till he does something really cruel for his own reasons to be sure. He`s still a villain (henchmen can be villains too) in my book. Did i mention he kills a lot of innocents with a smile?

Miko is a villain now. She was never truly evil before she killed Shojo, just bitchy. She would have lost her powers a long time ago if she ever comitted an evil act before that.

Hmmmmm, just a thought. Since it is clearly that Miko, like Thog, doesen`t realize what she`s doing is wrong, wouldn`t that also make her neutral. LN that is. If Thog is too stupid to know that slaying another humanoid is wrong, which makes him potentially neutral, shouldn`t that mean that if Miko is too zealous to know the same, that she is potentially neutral too? I don`t really agree with that, but it`s a good argument right? RIGHT?

[Heliomance]

But Thog is inherantly a 'funny villain'. He's a psychopathic half-orc with a lower INT than Elan, but he's also sweet and lovable and likes puppies. Come on, the concept is funny!


We're gonna have our own farm, an keep rabbits, an I'll feed 'em alfalfa, and we can live off the fatta the lan', right George?

[Threeshades]

Even though Thog clearly lacks empathy for other creatures (maybe not puppies?) I`m more convinced that he is CE than CN because of his actions. But we just have to wait till he does something really cruel for his own reasons to be sure. He`s still a villain (henchmen can be villains too) in my book. Did i mention he kills a lot of innocents with a smile?

Miko is a villain now. She was never truly evil before she killed Shojo, just bitchy. She would have lost her powers a long time ago if she ever comitted an evil act before that.

Hmmmmm, just a thought. Since it is clearly that Miko, like Thog, doesen`t realize what she`s doing is wrong, wouldn`t that also make her neutral. LN that is. If Thog is too stupid to know that slaying another humanoid is wrong, which makes him potentially neutral, shouldn`t that mean that if Miko is too zealous to know the same, that she is potentially neutral too? I don`t really agree with that, but it`s a good argument right? RIGHT?

well youre right. i didnt really think that through enough. but i think i said she isnt evil yet, shes only on the best way to become evil (as i said the typical anakin skywalker->darth vader case)

[Heliomance]

Is it bad of me that I half wanted Shojo to give her the "Yes... strike me down, and your journey to the Dark Side will be complete!" line?

[Threeshades]

Is it bad of me that I half wanted Shojo to give her the "Yes... strike me down, and your journey to the Dark Side will be complete!" line?

only for a fact that shojo would have had to be a blackguard himself. But otherwise not.

[ShiningTed]

I think that's part of why Thog is more popular than Miko--and, for that matter, why Xykon and Redcloak and Nale and all the other villains are more popular. They're funny, she's not. She was never supposed to be funny, methinks.Ahh, but Miko DID get the funniest line in the comic, even if it was utterly unintentional:

:miko: The term is Smite Evil, not 'bump uglies'

So she's a funny deadly serious character.

But as far as her being misguided LG, sad to say, she is nothing so elaborate: she is just nuts. Her cries of, "the rules don't apply to me, I'm special, I have a purpose, the Gods chose me..." - thats only one step away from hearing voices. And maybe she does that, too.

[fwiffo]

We're gonna have our own farm, an keep rabbits, an I'll feed 'em alfalfa, and we can live off the fatta the lan', right George?

He-he... Good call. Yeah, there are some people who, while being dangerously destructive, are so innocent in their ways that you can't really hate them or think of them as evil. I can't really think of Lennie as an evil person any more than I can think of Thog that way.

Miko, on the other hand...

[Charles Phipps]

Answer Thog is funny.

Many people dislike religious fanatics in real life and thus don't find Miko funny.

[Dell]

Well i think you can't really say Miko is evil, cause she's been with the whole order for a bunch of comic strips and you get to know her.
Although until a certain point you really get a chance to hate her, because I remember someone mentioning that Miko was the most hated in her guild and therefore always on outside missions - so you're not the first anymore and you switch to think about more of her bad sides.
This is a whole new thought making this character drasticly important.
(To not go offtopic: you would have never had that with thog, he is simply a antagonist - a straight idea for a character brought to a strip - while Miko changes)
So what happens here is the innitiation of a character becoming a sort of protagonist and that is where the simpleness of the comics becomes a little twisted.

Where I'm going to:
Miko is simply an unusual new element bringing more complexity to the order. Those people, who like Miko and the character itsself are either proud of paladins or simply like the somehow more serious story.

Thats simply a thought of course, I could be horribly wrong :smallsmile:

[FelixZ]

He-he... Good call. Yeah, there are some people who, while being dangerously destructive, are so innocent in their ways that you can't really hate them or think of them as evil. I can't really think of Lennie as an evil person any more than I can think of Thog that way.

Miko, on the other hand...

Miko is like Curly. You can't help but wan to shoot 'em in the back of the head, and laugh as thier body starts to spasm. :smallbiggrin:

Thog is awesome. I think Thog was a kender in another life, simply because of how he acts.

Miko however, I can't stand. She's a stertypical paladin who believes her views ARE the views, and no other view is correct.

What would be funny is if Giant stuck a CG Elven Paladin of Freedom with an 18 cha and an 8 wis in the game.... Heheheh god times...

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Actually, I have no real warm place in my heart for Thog, and Miko annoys the arcane outta me.

Thog is funny, but I don't find him to be cute or loveable like everyone else does.

I don't hate Miko, except in the possible 'love to hate' kinda thing.

So, yeah, I wouldn't mind if both got beaten up :smallamused:

[Ariko]

Thog has committed evil acts of his own accord. In one strip Nale and Sabine mention having to keep him supplied with icecream so he doesnt go on killing sprees for fun. But thats why i love him! and Belkar too!

[FelixZ]

Thog has committed evil acts of his own accord. In one strip Nale and Sabine mention having to keep him supplied with icecream so he doesnt go on killing sprees for fun. But thats why i love him! and Belkar too!

Hooray for senseless violence!!!!! And mass murderers!!! :smallbiggrin:

[Spiky]

Thog has committed evil acts of his own accord. In one strip Nale and Sabine mention having to keep him supplied with icecream so he doesnt go on killing sprees for fun. But thats why i love him! and Belkar too!
Yes, I was going to mention this, too. Another is where he got himself a "puppy" and nearly tortured it to death. Not sure how anyone can claim non-evil after that.

[Lord Zentei]

Jannex: While your argument holds merit, it seems you are asserting that Law and Chaos are less "legitimate" somehow than Good and Evil; I'm not sure I agree with that. Looking at the real world, for instance, it makes more sense to assert that the conflict between Law/Chaos is more immediate in people's thoughts, since few people actually think that they are Evil.


Ahh, but Miko DID get the funniest line in the comic, even if it was utterly unintentional:

:miko: The term is Smite Evil, not 'bump uglies'

So she's a funny deadly serious character.

Damn straight. And there is the matress scene, and sundry others. I really am not sure why people think of her as not funny; she lacks a sense of humour, certainly, but then, so does Vaarsuvius who is over-the-top serious in a similar way, and in any case, it is a parody. And yet, they are both real enough to identfy with (even though I would not get along with a Miko in real life as I have said, she does still elict sympathy. Vaarsuvius does not, since s/he has no tragedy, and certainly not a self-inflicted one. Thus far).

Charles Phipps: You have a point, but people don't like mass murderers in real life either; yet Thog gets a free pass for some reason.


But as far as her being misguided LG, sad to say, she is nothing so elaborate: she is just nuts. Her cries of, "the rules don't apply to me, I'm special, I have a purpose, the Gods chose me..." - thats only one step away from hearing voices. And maybe she does that, too.

She has become more fanatic that way over time. I can't really see her say that stuff earlier.

[Firevalkyrie]

Yes, I was going to mention this, too. Another is where he got himself a "puppy" and nearly tortured it to death. Not sure how anyone can claim non-evil after that.
Thog is evil, yes, but he's kind of ineffectual evil. Even at the height of his ineffectuality, Elan could hold his own against Thog for at least a little while. That doesn't speak particularly highly regarding Thog's capacity for actually effective villainy.

[Xeticus]

Miko is a very serious, very one dimensional character. I despise her personally. Thog, Redcloak and Xykon are all evil but they're more than that.

Thog likes icecream with sprinkles and puppies and likes hugs. And he goes on mass slaughters of innocents when bored. But he's charming! I think his INT is low but his WIS and CHA are pretty high.


Xykon and Redcloak are similar. Unredeemedly evil but smart and funny. Evil people can be charming and likeable. Look up the serial killer Ted Bundy. Committed atrocious crimes but people sure liked him.

Miko is just a word that starts with 'b' and ends with 'itch'!

[Lord Zentei]

Miko is a very serious, very one dimensional character. I despise her personally. Thog, Redcloak and Xykon are all evil but they're more than that.

Miko one dimensional and Xykon not? You have got to be kidding. Xykon is the "sarcastic, funny megalomaniac" archetype of an archvillain. That is all he is. There is no further analysis of his character relevant beyond that point.

The fact that Miko is so controversial and that so many facets to her can be seen in differing perspectives of her; it demonstrates her complexity. She is a good person - or at least a person that wants to be good - that ends up doing evil through a combination of character flaws and fate.


Thog likes icecream with sprinkles and puppies and likes hugs. And he goes on mass slaughters of innocents when bored. But he's charming! I think his INT is low but his WIS and CHA are pretty high.

<sigh> the CHA stat is not what determines complexity of character, neither is sense of humour.


Xykon and Redcloak are similar. Unredeemedly evil but smart and funny. Evil people can be charming and likeable. Look up the serial killer Ted Bundy. Committed atrocious crimes but people sure liked him.

Wow. Just wow.

[Xeticus]

Miko one dimensional and Xykon not? You have got to be kidding. Xykon is the "sarcastic, funny megalomaniac" archetype of an archvillain. That is all he is. There is no further analysis of his character relevant beyond that point.

The fact that Miko is so controversial and that so many facets to her can be seen in differing perspectives of her; it demonstrates her complexity. She is a good person - or at least a person that wants to be good - that ends up doing evil through a combination of character flaws and fate.



<sigh> the CHA stat is not what determines complexity of character, neither is sense of humour.



Wow. Just wow.Wow? I live in florida and remember Bundy's trial. People who knew him called him charming. Even during his murder trial he was joking and smiling with the jury. Evil is not necessarily one dimensional or simple. That's just the point I was trying to make.


As for Xykon I think he's more than you make him out to be. He's thoughtful and capable of long range planning. A lot smarter than he's given credit for. he's smart, funny and likeable despite being a murderous wanna-be world dictator. Much more of a rounded character than Miko. All she has is overwhelming pride and intolerance. I don't think she has any redeeming features at all. Except to make Belkar look good.

[Luvlein]

People who love Miko are always trying to make excuses for her and people who hate Miko always trying to make her worse than she is. The same goes for Thog, though no one really hates him I think.
Wrong. I love Miko, but I don't bend my mind to find excuses for her.

[Grasilich]

The last panel of this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0258.html) proves that Thog is CE, by the way. No one neutral would think to do that.

[Demented]

Oh, there's no doubting that.

[Jannex]

Jannex: While your argument holds merit, it seems you are asserting that Law and Chaos are less "legitimate" somehow than Good and Evil; I'm not sure I agree with that. Looking at the real world, for instance, it makes more sense to assert that the conflict between Law/Chaos is more immediate in people's thoughts, since few people actually think that they are Evil.

I think what I was trying to say wasn't so much that Law and Chaos are "less legitimate" than Good and Evil, but more that... I conceive of Law and Chaos as "means," while Good and Evil are "ends." Both are important, but means without ends feel kind of pointless, lacking purpose.

You're right in that few people think they are Evil; people like to imagine themselves as Good. Thus, the conflict between people often takes the form of how to serve the goal of "Good"--Law or Chaos. The means to the end. If the end were removed, what would the argument be about?

[Mike_G]

Answer Thog is funny.

Many people dislike religious fanatics in real life and thus don't find Miko funny.


Because many people have had their ancestors starved and burned out of their country by religious fanatics, or their skyscrapers brought down by religious fanatics or....

Why can't we just show compassion to those poor misunderstood religious fanatics?

[Demented]

I find it much more satisfying when my swords are bathed in the blood of those responsible (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0120.html).

:biggrin:

[Lord Zentei]

Wow? I live in florida and remember Bundy's trial. People who knew him called him charming. Even during his murder trial he was joking and smiling with the jury. Evil is not necessarily one dimensional or simple. That's just the point I was trying to make.

I know that evil is not neccesarily one dimensional or simple. I would think that if Miko were considered to qualify as evil, that she would demonstrate as much.


As for Xykon I think he's more than you make him out to be. He's thoughtful and capable of long range planning. A lot smarter than he's given credit for. he's smart, funny and likeable despite being a murderous wanna-be world dictator. Much more of a rounded character than Miko. All she has is overwhelming pride and intolerance. I don't think she has any redeeming features at all. Except to make Belkar look good.

That is not what "complexity of character" means.

And the "thoughtful, capable of long range planning" is part and parcel of the archetype. Nor has he shown any kind of character development.


I think what I was trying to say wasn't so much that Law and Chaos are "less legitimate" than Good and Evil, but more that... I conceive of Law and Chaos as "means," while Good and Evil are "ends." Both are important, but means without ends feel kind of pointless, lacking purpose.

You're right in that few people think they are Evil; people like to imagine themselves as Good. Thus, the conflict between people often takes the form of how to serve the goal of "Good"--Law or Chaos. The means to the end. If the end were removed, what would the argument be about?

That's not really what I was going for. I mean that people may actually equate Law or Chaos with the end result of what they would deem "good", if they consider them to be the first best way of acheiving said ends.

It is axiomatic that people will attempt to attain a "good" state, but that can be seen as meaningless unless it is clarified what constitutes "good".

For instance: if you deem that Law is the best way to acheive good, if you then manage to acheive this "good", you won't be discarding Law afterwards. You'll maintain it indefinately, since you want such a state to exist continiously. In short, the path and the end become one and inseperable.

[Jannex]

That's not really what I was going for. I mean that people may actually equate Law or Chaos with the end result of what they would deem "good", if they consider them to be the first best way of acheiving said ends.

It is axiomatic that people will attempt to attain a "good" state, but that can be seen as meaningless unless it is clarified what constitutes "good".

For instance: if you deem that Law is the best way to acheive good, if you then manage to acheive this "good", you won't be discarding Law afterwards. You'll maintain it indefinately, since you want such a state to exist continiously. In short, the path and the end become one and inseperable.

I think, in some regards, Miko's problem is that she is doing something similar to this; she's managed to conflate Law with "good," and in doing so, lost touch with actual Good. This is what I was talking about when I spoke of the danger of elevating Law to the status as a "goal" that Good generally holds, instead of acknowledging it as a means to an end. In Miko's mind, I think, Law and Good are the same thing. This is a Problem, for the reasons that I attempted to describe previously.

[Lord Zentei]

I think, in some regards, Miko's problem is that she is doing something similar to this; she's managed to conflate Law with "good," and in doing so, lost touch with actual Good. This is what I was talking about when I spoke of the danger of elevating Law to the status as a "goal" that Good generally holds, instead of acknowledging it as a means to an end. In Miko's mind, I think, Law and Good are the same thing. This is a Problem, for the reasons that I attempted to describe previously.

Lack of flexibility in her worldview is certainly a character trait. Most people would of course be placed in a more central location on the Law/Chaos axis. There would be differences in what areas of society they feel that the Law and Chaos should be applied, and to what degree. They would be able to compromise.

For instance: government control of economy or free market? Regulations of said free market or not? Tough on crime or lenient? Morality laws or not? What is "good" in each of these cases? This perspective is what I meant by people perceiving what constitutes good and evil in terms of law and chaos (and arguably, there is the age old issue of the alignment structure being too simplistic: there should of course be multiple dimensions).

And yes, of course there are multiple ways that laws can be written and applied, so in that case you are correct: for instance, just because law in general is good in a specific area does not mean that any given law as is is ideal.

[NinjaFish]

Heh...The title of this thread made me think it was a pairing thing.

I'm waiting for my Miko/Thog slash, people! Get crackin'! :smallwink: