Combining Multiple Low Tiers to make a single higher tier

[NoACWarrior]

I'm pretty sure this was partially discussed in the tier thread on minmax / gameologists, but I'd like real opinions for what I'm trying to do.

So anyways - I was trying to come up with pre-fab gestalt setups with 3 t5 classes which had the possibility to break the t3-t4 barrier.

One such combination was Monk - Swash buckler - Ninja (but it is so MAD that its not funny)
The other was Fighter - Soulborn - Paladin.

I gave up on MSN because of MAD issues and mixed up requirements (I just saw no synergy between the 3 classes).

I powered on for FSP and finished combining all three classes. I also took the liberty of replacing the mount with the charging smite ability, and for the fighter bonus feats allowed the FSP to get a divine or incarnum feat instead.

But now I am stuck wondering if the FSP really did rise to t3 or is stuck at high t4.

I am in the middle of working for t4 gestalts as well, but I'd like some input if combining classes is good enough to push past the barrier.

[prufock]

The other was Fighter - Soulborn - Paladin.

I did something similar with my paladin (http://dndfulcrum.wikispaces.com/Paladin) redesign, except I incorporated elements of paladin, marshal, and knight instead. The three classes are all low-tier, and have good charisma synergy. My aim was tier 3 as well (or in the high tier 4 - low tier 2 range).

I used some elements of swashbuckler and factotum for my rogue (http://dndfulcrum.wikispaces.com/Rogue) rekit. As for fighter (http://dndfulcrum.wikispaces.com/Fighter), I used components of the standard fighter class, the samurai class, and a feat retraining mechanic. Monk (http://dndfulcrum.wikispaces.com/Monk) was more of a complete redesign.

[Larkas]

Let's just get this out of the way first: you may combine all T5-3 classes and you'll never break the T2 barrier.

With that out of the way, and seeing as you're not interested in breaching the T2 barrier, let's analyze the actual combination.

Hmmm... In this case T4 means being very good at something, while T3 means that AND still being useful when that something is not relevant (the other definition isn't relevant for this mash-up). This class is good at fighting, no doubt about it. It is a solid T4. But is it versatile enough to break into T3? Alas, I don't think so. It can fight very well, but what is it good for when smashing faces is not an option? It is poor at skills, it's spells are pretty battle-oriented and so are its melds (you actually reduced the class versatility when you traded away the mount). Now, that's not to say that a specific character can't break into T3 territory, it's certainly possible. But the class, by itself, is not T3

[NoACWarrior]

Thanks for the replies. Its interesting you did a complete redesign of the monk - I always thought adding monk somewhere meant you get skill monkey abilities and that in it of itself made a tier upgrade possible.

It is as I suspected - by combining the classes (and taking away the mount) I made a stronger t4 fighter, but it doesn't get around the fact that damage =/= t3. The goal was to make something a t3, the sweet spot for most games.

So with that said should I focus efforts on doing the MSN conversion - a skill monkey OoC and a sort of damage dealer in combat?

Speaking of which - I also was toying around with combining the ranger and the scout - would such a combination give enough OoC and variety to make a low t3 class?

[Shining Wrath]

A 3 class gestalt? Do we assume progression in all 3 at once?

Beguiler / Warblade / Warmage
Start with Beguiler. Light armor with light spell casting of a limited nature, INT as a casting stat. Lots of out-of-combat utility with all the Enchantment
Add the Warblade. Int synergy (not strong), but what you're taking this for is full BAB, D12 HD, and some utility maneuvers (Diamond Mind concentration-for-save series).
Add Warmage. Lots of in-combat blasty goodness; a spell list almost entirely complimentary to that of the Beguiler.

What you have, then, is two complimentary spell progressions. Requiring, unfortunately, both INT and CHA - but CHA compliments the Beguiler's Enchantments, and between the two you have all four social skills and the skill points (Beguiler: 6+INT) to fill them. One spell list excels out of combat, one excels in combat.

Warblade gives you a nearly indestructible chassis to build these two caster progressions on. With 3 classes the only weak save is Reflex, and Warblade will give you +INT modifier to that, plus the opportunity to use the Diamond Mind Moment of Perfect Mind / Alacrity / Action before Thought series to let you use the Concentration check you'll be maxing out anyway in place of a save.

Stats: INT & CHR: CON: 10's in the rest. If you DO get forced into melee combat you should have a few Warblade maneuvers prepared to make your enemies wish they hadn't cornered you. You won't be bringing the pain like a build where Warblade was the prime focus, but you'll do so much more than a cornered Wizard (yes, I know, how did that happen anyway?) would do.

[Seerow]

This thread was more focused on specific builds than general class combinations, but may have some stuff of interest to you: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?336337-The-Z-Team-Tier-5-Gestalt

[Shining Wrath]

Let's just get this out of the way first: you may combine all T5-3 classes and you'll never break the T2 barrier.

With that out of the way, and seeing as you're not interested in breaching the T2 barrier, let's analyze the actual combination.

Hmmm... In this case T4 means being very good at something, while T3 means that AND still being useful when that something is not relevant (the other definition isn't relevant for this mash-up). This class is good at fighting, no doubt about it. It is a solid T4. But is it versatile enough to break into T3? Alas, I don't think so. It can fight very well, but what is it good for when smashing faces is not an option? It is poor at skills, it's spells are pretty battle-oriented and so are its melds (you actually reduced the class versatility when you traded away the mount). Now, that's not to say that a specific character can't break into T3 territory, it's certainly possible. But the class, by itself, is not T3

Not necessarily: there are casting classes down in the lower Tiers, ranked there because of limited spell list. Add together Beguiler + Healer + Warmage + Hexblade + Duskblade + Factotum + Dread Necro + Bard and you've got way, way, WAY more flexibility than most Wizards have in their spell book, and enough spells per day to make a sorcerer cry. And yes, some of those are level 9.

[NoACWarrior]

This thread was more focused on specific builds than general class combinations, but may have some stuff of interest to you: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?336337-The-Z-Team-Tier-5-Gestalt

Ah thanks that post completely skipped my mind, I read it a while back too. I was just working on the 3 way gestalts during the forum upgrade.

So more background on what I'm looking for - In my campaign (which I dont know when I'll be DMing next) I am trying to setup as many classes as t3, sure players can play specific classes to thier choosing but I want to make sure that I make t3 options for everyone.

For t5 classes I have resorted to triple gestalt of only t5 classes.
For t4 classes I am thinking of gestalt of only t4 classes.
For t6 classes I am forcing gestalt with a few interesting tweaks.

A gestalt between a t3 class would automatically make a t3 class anyways - but that's not my intent.

[Larkas]

Not necessarily: there are casting classes down in the lower Tiers, ranked there because of limited spell list. Add together Beguiler + Healer + Warmage + Hexblade + Duskblade + Factotum + Dread Necro + Bard and you've got way, way, WAY more flexibility than most Wizards have in their spell book, and enough spells per day to make a sorcerer cry. And yes, some of those are level 9.

Qualifying for T2/1 isn't about versatility, it's about game-breaking power. A super gestalt of T3s might have a good response for everything you throw at it, but it won't have the power to "win the game" the same way T2/1 classes have, simply because it's not in their spell list. Of course specific builds can break the tier barrier (Sublime Chord Bards and Rainbow Warsnakes, for example), but the base classes by themselves cannot. Otherwise, the class doing the breaking would already be classified as T2/1.

Keep this in mind: aiming for T2/1 isn't good. Classes classified as such have something inherently wrong with them. A super T3 can probably overshadow most other characters most of the time, but it can't obviate the adventure the way a T2/1 may. There's nothing wrong with banning specific spells to bring the Wizard to T3, for example. It would still be one of the strongest classes in the game, just not brokenly so.

[Shining Wrath]

To amplify previous point: A level 18 beguiler gets to cast these 3 times per day:
Dominate Monster, Etherealness, Foresight, Hold Monster Mass, Power Word Kill, & Time Stop
While the level 18 Warmage gets to cast these 3 times per day:
Elemental Swarm, Implosion, Meteor Swarm, Prismatic Sphere, Wail of the Banshee, Weird
And the level 18 Healer gets to cast these 4 times per day:
Foresight, Gate, True Resurrection

That's 10 9th level spells per day at level 18, and I don't think anyone is going to complain about Time Stop and Gate being low-opt.

So if you let me put those 3 together, I say I'm Tier 1.

EDIT:


Qualifying for T2/1 isn't about versatility, it's about game-breaking power. A super gestalt of T3s might have a good response for everything you throw at it, but it won't have the power to "win the game" the same way T2/1 classes have, simply because it's not in their spell list. Of course specific builds can break the tier barrier (Sublime Chord Bards and Rainbow Warsnakes, for example), but the base classes by themselves cannot. Otherwise, the class doing the breaking would already be classified as T2/1.

Keep this in mind: aiming for T2/1 isn't good. Classes classified as such have something inherently wrong with them. A super T3 can probably overshadow most other characters most of the time, but it can't obviate the adventure the way a T2/1 may. There's nothing wrong with banning specific spells to bring the Wizard to T3, for example. It would still be one of the strongest classes in the game, just not brokenly so.

If you are willing to assert that the game can't be broken with Gate or Time Stop (or, perhaps, Prismatic Sphere), please continue.

[Larkas]

If you are willing to assert that the game can't be broken with Gate or Time Stop (or, perhaps, Prismatic Sphere), please continue.

On its own, Time Stop is certainly annoying (specially for someone with so many spells), but not necessarily broken. Still, you only get that at 18.

If Gate on its own was a sign of T1, then Truenamer wouldn't be T6. You are effectively T1 @18+, but up to 17, you're T3.

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?321668-Which-is-better-a-T1-or-a-gestalt-of-all-T4-and-below-classes) might be a good read.

[Seerow]

On its own, Time Stop is certainly annoying (specially for someone with so many spells), but not necessarily broken. Still, you only get that at 18.

If Gate on its own was a sign of T1, then Truenamer wouldn't be T6. You are effectively T1 @18+, but up to 17, you're T3.

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?321668-Which-is-better-a-T1-or-a-gestalt-of-all-T4-and-below-classes) might be a good read.

You'll note in that thread, it specifies T4 and below, while Shining Wrath is specifically including Dread Necromancer and Beguiler (both T3). If I remember that thread correctly, nobody even bothered arguing that once you throw those two into the mix you hit Tier2/Tier1, the heated argument was what you get when your best casting progression is Healer and Warmage.

[Larkas]

You'll note in that thread, it specifies T4 and below, while Shining Wrath is specifically including Dread Necromancer and Beguiler (both T3). If I remember that thread correctly, nobody even bothered arguing that once you throw those two into the mix you hit Tier2/Tier1, the heated argument was what you get when your best casting progression is Healer and Warmage.

Doh, completely missed the Beguiler was there. Still, I'm not sure it makes a "relevant" T1 (i.e.: with relevant T1 brokenness from spell level 4 onwards.).

EDIT: Scratch that, T3 includes Factotum. T3 mega-gestalts can hit T1 easily. Carry on, guys! :smallredface:

[Shining Wrath]

Doh, completely missed the Beguiler was there. Still, I'm not sure it makes a "relevant" T1 (i.e.: with relevant T1 brokenness from spell level 4 onwards.).

EDIT: Scratch that, T3 includes Factotum. T3 mega-gestalts can hit T1 easily. Carry on, guys! :smallredface:

At the point I entered into this discussion, the statement on the table was "combine ALL Tier5-3 classes and you won't hit Tier 2". I think that's been refuted, but we've moved on.

Combinations of Tier 4 and lower would pose more of a challenge, although I still think that *all* the abilities of Warlock + Warmage + Hexblade + Spellthief + Healer would add up to a fairly versatile set of spells, and lots of them. Limit me to two - say, Warmage and Healer - and I don't think it's Tier 2, but it's a very respectable Tier 3 and you'd have lots of fun blasting people and then patching up your friends. Sort of the guy who's nice and kind until the fight starts and then DIE DIE DIE YOU DIE TOO OH DID YOU LIKE THAT.

[prufock]

On its own, Time Stop is certainly annoying (specially for someone with so many spells), but not necessarily broken. Still, you only get that at 18.

If Gate on its own was a sign of T1, then Truenamer wouldn't be T6. You are effectively T1 @18+, but up to 17, you're T3.

The tier list attempts to generalize the classes over 20 levels, so you're right that having T1 abilities at level 18+ isn't enough to breach tier 2. However, with the spell lists combined of at least 4 full casters, you have a good shot of being pretty powerful at each level. You DO miss out on a few of the biggies, but I'm not seeing a lot that sorcerers can offer that this combo can't. You have healing, protection, damage, and encounter-ending spells at each level. You can get minions. You get mobility. You can drive a DM crazy and completely wreck his campaign.

There's no way to get to tier 1; that's basically impossible with fixed-list casters. But I'd say you certainly hit tier 2 (though maybe a lower tier 2 than sorcerer).

[Telonius]

For the Fighter/Soulborn/Paladin... would you consider changing Paladin to Expert? Between the extra skill points, class skills, and bonuses from soulmelds, it might give it enough versatility to push it into (low) T3. Paladin and Soulborn seem to have a lot of overlap (skills, hit dice, saves), so I'm not sure how much benefit you're getting from having them both in the same tri-stalt.

[lytokk]

if the point is to combine 3 T5s into one ghestalt to hit tier 3, I think fighter/soulknife/expert would really get to that level. Expert for all those skillpoints and a choice of 10 class skills to cover the social skills. Fighter for the Full BAB, all the combat feats, and a good fort save. Soulknife to ensure you're never unarmed, good ref and will saves. Heck, weapon focus soulblade is a free thing for soulknives, so get the weapon specializations in there and up the damage a little more.

If I only got to chose 2 classes, I'd go fighter//expert. I think that would put fighter into tier 4 territory at minimum, maybe a low tier 3.

[deuxhero]

Tier 3 and under ubergestalt CAN break into tier 1/2: The ubergestalt is a paladin (and ranger) that gives 9th level prepared spells (healer). Just take Sword of the Arcane Order and prepare wizard spells in them.

Mind you that requires a certain reading of gestalt AND a favorable answer on the old question of "what's an X slot anyways". Even without it, the factotum's action boost is pretty nasty with full casting that isn't gimped by 8 levels in another class (it's part of why it's such a good entry into Chameleon).

As for tier 5, short of the healer//paladin trick above I'm not sure ALL the tier 5/6s at once could push you above 4. Expert and Healer are the only ones that add anything new to the mix over just martial stuff of varying quality. Healer can be optimized to a higher level than it's peers by spelllist boosters, that that's not reallc covered in the tier list.

[Shining Wrath]

if the point is to combine 3 T5s into one ghestalt to hit tier 3, I think fighter/soulknife/expert would really get to that level. Expert for all those skillpoints and a choice of 10 class skills to cover the social skills. Fighter for the Full BAB, all the combat feats, and a good fort save. Soulknife to ensure you're never unarmed, good ref and will saves. Heck, weapon focus soulblade is a free thing for soulknives, so get the weapon specializations in there and up the damage a little more.

If I only got to chose 2 classes, I'd go fighter//expert. I think that would put fighter into tier 4 territory at minimum, maybe a low tier 3.

The idea for Tier IV is "Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining.". Except the for truly damaged classes, adding Expert to any Tier 5 ought to get you into Tier 4, because Expert gives you "reasonable degree of competence" in a lot of skills, plus feats, which you can use to get yourself to doing one thing well. If you can do one thing well but not quite well, and also do lots of things sort-of competently ...

[lytokk]

The idea for Tier IV is "Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining.". Except the for truly damaged classes, adding Expert to any Tier 5 ought to get you into Tier 4, because Expert gives you "reasonable degree of competence" in a lot of skills, plus feats, which you can use to get yourself to doing one thing well. If you can do one thing well but not quite well, and also do lots of things sort-of competently ...

I'm still new to the whole optimizing and tier system, but are you saying that this would/wouldn't get the character into Tier 3 areas? Or just adding expert to the class was the easy way out and I should try and think of something different but it was a good effort?

[Grod_The_Giant]

I am in the middle of working for t4 gestalts as well, but I'd like some input if combining classes is good enough to push past the barrier.
If you do it right, sure. The goal is to either combine a "good at what they do, but useless outside that" class with a "passable at a lot of things" class, or else grab two "good at what they do" classes with non-overlapping areas of expertise.

Some suggestions:

Warlock//Scout-- skirmish helps eldrich blast damage stay relevant, and 8 skill points/level give out-of-combat utility.
Psychic Rogue//Rogue gives you the best of two "almost there" classes.
Barbarian//Ranger combines the barbarian's pure damage power with the ranger's skills and utility spells. Plus thematic!
Warmage//Marshal has plenty of Charisma synergy and a decent Int score to make use of the Marshal's solid skill list.


Three T5 is harder. You need to look a lot more carefully at where each classes' strengths and weaknesses are. You're probably going to wind up using Fighter and Expert a lot-- the combination alone is a solid T4, with plenty of feats for combat and the skills for everything else. Ideally, you'd then find something with worthwhile class features to slap on top of that.

Knight//Fighter//Expert certainly works. Fighter gives the Knight the feats he's missing for offense, and Expert gives him the skill points to use his Charisma synergy with.
Swashbuckler//Monk with Kung-Fu Genius comes off surprisingly well, rendering Strength pretty irrelevant and giving you a nice big skill list to go with your Int. Not sure what I'd put on top of that... Fighter for feats? It's not fantastic, but it's playable.
Soulborn//Fighter//Expert would probably be OK. Fighter can get you through the early levels when you don't have melds, and Expert can patch up your skills.
Paladin with Serenity//Healer//Expert might work. Paladin gets pretty decent with splat support, and slapping on more skill points always helps. Healer... well, if you merge the Paladin and Healer lists and let Battle Blessing work on the combined thing, you get a tough warrior with swift-action buffs and healing. That's pretty fierce. Outside that, not so much. (Paladin with Serenity and splatbooks//Fighter//Expert looks passable as well)

[Larkas]

I'm really sorry I brought the uber T3 gestalt into the discussion (not less because I was wrong, the previous discussion was about an uber T4 gestalt), but let's try to not get this too offtopic. The OP is asking for reasonable triple gestalts to bring T5s into T3s.

Telonius, lytokk and Shining Wrath are onto something here, anyways. Splicing Expert into almost any T5 class will bring you up to Rogue-like levels of competency: you don't really shine at anything, but you almost always have something useful to do.

Now, to boost that T4 into T3, you need to address what's holding it back. You could give it supreme versatility (Bard-like) or real competency at something (Crusader-like). Since we're bringing up a T5, which generally are classes that strive to be good at something, but end up being just mediocre, let's go with the latter.

Let's take the previous example, the Fighter//Expert (a great combination, btw, one of my players got this in a non-gestalt, low/mid-op game and was able to keep up with the rest of the party just fine when his sword wasn't needed).

Fighters are already quite high in T5, which means they already border T4. What keeps them down is mainly a lack of flexibility: they either specialize at one combat trick to be good at it, and only at it, or they're mainly ineffective at anything. This means, in my opinion, that they need ways to (a) more easily pump their chosen trick and (b) have something to do in combat when that trick is not relevant.

To address (a), I'd open up the "Fighter Specializations" present in Dragon #310 (sans feat restriction because it's hard to make such lists when you get out of core). That article presents quite a few good abilities unavailable elsewhere - and what's better, unavailable to other classes, unlike feats. Those unique abilities may let the Fighter reach its chosen trick more easily and be better at it than most. I'd probably also tweak some chains of feats (say, Two-Weapon Fighting) to automatically scale with Fighter level as long as you meet the pre-requisites. I'd also open up the Dungeon Crasher ACF from Dungeonscape, for some optimized face-smashing.

To address (b), I'd let Fighters take the Zhentarim Soldier substitution levels (from the Champions of Valor Web Enhancement (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a)) with no strings attached, which means those levels would be pretty much default. Maybe splice in CW's Samurai's Staredown/Frightful Presence as well (I'd change the levels at which each thing is granted, though. I'd also make Frightful Presence scale AND give it some bonus to affected HD down the line, so that you can affect creatures with more HD than you). This pretty much obviates the Samurai class, but hey, Samurai is a nobility title, you can be a Fighter Samurai. :smalltongue:

To round things up, maybe add in a more generalized form of the Ancestral Daisho from OA's Samurai (call it "Bonded Weapon", if you'd like), so the Fighter can enchant his own weapon (you could just gestalt them here, but the resulting class would have an unnecessarily high number of feats and a restriction to the chosen weapon). Lastly, remove the limitation to the number of Martial Study feats for Fighters, at least for those bought with Fighter Bonus Feats.

This should make a T3 Fighter: a fairly competent character for all things combat, and still useful when face-smashing is not an option.

... I went off-topic again and presented a combination that doesn't rely just on gestalt, didn't I? :smallsigh: In my defense, this is "kind of" a Fighter//Expert//Samurai//Samurai with ACFs stacked in. :smalltongue:

[Metahuman1]

Throwing Expert and healer or soulborn or Truenamer on a fighter can get it up to lower Tier 3. Your decent to fairly good at hitting stuff with the full BAB, good Strength, Con, your Proficiency's and well choose bonus feats (and in the case of soul born with smiting and good choices for soul melds.), you've got solid hit dice and all good saves, and you can have lot's of good class skills from expert. On top of that, while healer or Soul Born or Truenamer fall flat on being dedicated magic users, they can afford you a limited quantity of nice tricks to give you something other then skills and stabbing to work with.


If Swordsage and Duskblade are Teir 3, so is this.

[Coidzor]

I am in the middle of working for t4 gestalts as well, but I'd like some input if combining classes is good enough to push past the barrier.

Probably already been said, but any martial type(Fighter, Paladin, Samurai, Monk) should jump to at least low T4 by gestalting with Expert, since that allows decent access to the skill system and shores up a weaker will save for Fighters. So anything that synergizes with that should be good, and Ninja should probably also do the same thing, even if class abilities are likely to be ignored in favor of the increased skill utility.

Similarly, any half-decent martial class should bring up a skill monkey to T4 or higher by better enabling them to contribute in the combat portion of the game. Fighter//Rogue is arguably(IIRC) low T3, high T4 and is a high T5 and a mid T4 combined respectively.

Fighter//Knight//Expert should be a decent to good tank but also able to contribute outside of combat through the skill system and maybe pick up something like Knowledge Devotion and able to do a bit more than tanking, even without a great Int score.

Fighter//Soulborn//Expert should be higher in T4 from the tricks Incarnum opens up. The first because it can start taking Incarnum feats from level one while also covering combat feats with fighter bonus feats, especially if fighter bonus feats are expanded to cover a bit more.

Fighter//Monk//Healer doesn't help with the MAD, but it fixes the BAB deficiency and increases Wisdom Synergy while sidestepping the armor restrictions of Healer by not wanting to wear proper armor anyway. Better able to do its job (Hit Things) and better able to patch itself up and buff itself, so it's at least T4 as well. And if it doesn't want quite as many feats for hitting things then Paladin, Divine Mind, or Healer all seem like they would make good additions to Monk. Not sure if a Paladin/Divine Mind/Monk would quite hit T3 though.

Divine Mind//Healer//Fighter, Divine Mind//Healer//Paladin, or Divine Mind//Healer//Expert seems like they should also hit T4, the Wisdom Synergy for the manifesting and casting combined with the combat or skill chassis of either Fighter or Expert should combine well, even if it does make the Fighter type more MAD(Fighter//DivineMind//Healer can probably get away without Charisma though). It might go into low T3 territory, I'm not sure, but it seems like even the abysmal manifesting of Divine Minds and crappy casting of Healer are the best bet for getting up to T3.

Actually A-Game Paladins can be quite nice and some people will argue they're T3, so with the addition of manifesting, more casting, and/or the ability to interact meaningfully with the skill system, it seems like you could get a T3 Paladin//Divine Mind//Expert, Paladin//Healer//Expert, or Paladin//Divine Mind//Healer.

[toapat]

Actually A-Game Paladins can be quite nice and some people will argue they're T3, so with the addition of manifesting, more casting, and/or the ability to interact meaningfully with the skill system, it seems like you could get a T3 Paladin//Divine Mind//Expert, Paladin//Healer//Expert, or Paladin//Divine Mind//Healer.

The A-Game paladin is High T3, but its also not the only way to punt paladin up there. In this topic, at least, you only need MFK + Serenity (Wisdom paladin)/Academic Priest (int casting, with the only downside being Wis to DCs, compliments SotAO very well)/Dynamic Priest (Cha version of Academic priest, equally good) combined with //Expert. Adding in //Fighter would bring this back fully into High T3 because it would allow dedication of the fighter feats to combat and the remaining 5 level feats to casting.

[Chronos]

Quoth Grod_The_Giant:

Some suggestions:
...
Psychic Rogue//Rogue gives you the best of two "almost there" classes.
Nah, they're too similar. They've both got a bunch of skills, about the same skill list, medium BAB, trapfinding, and sneak attack. If you combine them, you've basically just got a psychic rogue with 2 more skill points and a slightly faster sneak attack progression: There's not much new there. You'd be much better off combining either one with fighter, even though fighter is a lower tier, just because it offers something new to the combination.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Nah, they're too similar. They've both got a bunch of skills, about the same skill list, medium BAB, trapfinding, and sneak attack. If you combine them, you've basically just got a psychic rogue with 2 more skill points and a slightly faster sneak attack progression: There's not much new there. You'd be much better off combining either one with fighter, even though fighter is a lower tier, just because it offers something new to the combination.
Nah, think of it this way: you've got a rogue (already at the top of the T4 pile) with 5th level manifesting, from a stealthy list. (Lurk would probably be better, come to think of it, but I'm not sure where it falls on the tier list-- I'm not too familiar with it and google's not being that helpful)

[Metahuman1]

Doesn't Psi-Rouge also get a good will save? Throw the three of them together with fighter and you get feats,Full bab, all good saves, d10 hit die (D12 with some shenanigans for a sub level if it matters too you.), Sneak Attack, Trap Finding, 8 skill ranks a level and a good list to pick from, 5th level powers that are mostly thematic and don't overly raise MAD, lot's of proficiency's, Evasion, uncanny dodge, all kinds of neat stuff. I'd actually say this hits at least lose teir 3 and probably mid Teir 3.

[toapat]

Nah, think of it this way: you've got a rogue (already at the top of the T4 pile) with 5th level manifesting, from a stealthy list. (Lurk would probably be better, come to think of it, but I'm not sure where it falls on the tier list-- I'm not too familiar with it and google's not being that helpful)

i think Rogue//Psychic Rogue is middle T3, after looking at it, but only so long as you take the dungeonscape variant that lets you apply half Sneak attack to Fortified enemies, and it depends on when the class is in its progression. From level 1-10, its a Rogue. from level 11 onwards, its getting 2 bonus abilities every third level, and will drain enemies of Str and Wisdom in a matter of actions. it has decent manifestation and a thematic list.

I think overal, the most interesting gestalt going off of the list would be Healer//Warmage//Expert.


I wonder what Hexblade//Duskblade would be

[Coidzor]

So with that said should I focus efforts on doing the MSN conversion - a skill monkey OoC and a sort of damage dealer in combat?

Speaking of which - I also was toying around with combining the ranger and the scout - would such a combination give enough OoC and variety to make a low t3 class?

Monk + Swashbuckler with Kung Fu Genius lets you get Int to Damage and AC, which is nice and synergizes with the skillmonkery added by Ninja. Just make the Dodge Bonus class feature count as Dodge for prerequisites and you're good. Weapon Finesse for Free and Int to Damage combined with Kung Fu Genius allows them to focus in on Int, Dex, and Con a bit more, and it does have Full BAB and a goodly sized HD. Sudden Strike isn't as useful, but some of the Ki abilities bolster the Monk's inability to deal with incorporeal and ethereal creatures in house, and it gives trapfinding so it can act as a scout and skillmonkey like many people seem to think Monks should be.

So if one has the right sources available, Monk//Swashbuckler can actually reduce MAD. MSNs seem like they would be passable skillmonkeys between the combined lists and Int-focus and passable in combat between reducing MAD, giving full BAB, and some of the opportunities afforded by Sudden Strike and Ninja tricks.

As a note, Rokugan Ninja gives actual Sneak Attack and Full BAB on its own, as well as a good skill list but lower skillpoints and no trapfinding despite having disable device.

Scout//Ranger is basically The Swift Hunter. They've got most of the skills they'd want, so they're pretty good on that front, they've got a ready damage mechanic to either encourage charging or, more likely, ranged damage contribution, with the Urban Companion variant they've got a second skillmonkey instead of the usual weak Animal Companion, and they don't have to sacrifce levels to Scout to get the Swift Hunter feat so they've got their full casting complement, which, meager as it is, is still pretty nifty for most of their purposes.

Scout boosts the skills and the combat of the Ranger enough to go from decent to fairly good, IIRC, so I think it's probably a low T3 or right on the cusp of breaking into T3, but I don't believe the scout's skills really open up anything other than trapfinding and trapkilling that the Ranger couldn't already do with their 6+int skillpoints(and there's a ranger ACF for that).


Nah, think of it this way: you've got a rogue (already at the top of the T4 pile) with 5th level manifesting, from a stealthy list. (Lurk would probably be better, come to think of it, but I'm not sure where it falls on the tier list-- I'm not too familiar with it and google's not being that helpful)

I think Lurk is usually thought of as T4 or T5, though some contend that both Lurk and PsiRogue are T3, IIRC.


I think overal, the most interesting gestalt going off of the list would be Healer//Warmage//Expert.

Warmage is T5 now?

...Or are you going with the idea that Healer//Expert = T4, so that gestalted with Warmage would be two T4s together?

[Larkas]

I wonder what Hexblade//Duskblade would be

Redundant. :smallbiggrin: Seriously though, I think both Hexblade//Expert (with the creator's fix, of course) and Duskblade//Expert would be better off and more interesting than Hexblade//Duskblade.

[Shining Wrath]

I'm still new to the whole optimizing and tier system, but are you saying that this would/wouldn't get the character into Tier 3 areas? Or just adding expert to the class was the easy way out and I should try and think of something different but it was a good effort?

I'm just saying that for low-Tier gestalts an Expert can be very helpful to a variety of classes, because it brings three flexible things with it: skill points, class skills, and free feats. Lots of skill points and your choice of class skills allows you to tailor yourself to do what the party needs out of combat, and the feats allow you to improve your in-combat capabilities.

[Rakaydos]

I'm just saying that for low-Tier gestalts an Expert can be very helpful to a variety of classes, because it brings three flexible things with it: skill points, class skills, and free feats. Lots of skill points and your choice of class skills allows you to tailor yourself to do what the party needs out of combat, and the feats allow you to improve your in-combat capabilities.

Uh, the SRD doesnt show the expert getting any bonus feats.

[Shining Wrath]

For a T5 combination not mentioned yet, I suggest Healer / Battle Dancer / Expert. Both Healer and Battle Dancer benefit from high charisma, the healer has solid out-of-combat utility in patching everyone up, the Battle Dancer has unarmed strike progression like a monk and some interesting class features. Throw in a Monk's Belt to allow Wis -> AC, and you can have an unarmored PC with an AC north of 30. Combined with the Healer's ability to use healing spells without provoking and you've got someone who can actually stand on the front lines and heal while they do it. Expert just gives you the skill points and class skills to be a face, or a scout, depending on whether you want to emphasize CHA or DEX.

[lytokk]

just checked dndtools. He's talking about the UA expert, not the DM expert. DM expert only gets 10 class skills, and no feats. Yeah, the UA expert is definitely better. I didn't even know there were 2 expert classes.

[Shining Wrath]

Uh, the SRD doesnt show the expert getting any bonus feats.

I should have been clear: UA Expert (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#expert)

Edit: Swordsaged! Swordsages are everywhere! Watch your ba....URK!

[Larkas]

just checked dndtools. He's talking about the UA expert, not the DM expert. DM expert only gets 10 class skills, and no feats. Yeah, the UA expert is definitely better. I didn't even know there were 2 expert classes.

Oh, it's part of the generic classes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#expert). It's the Rogue to the Generic Warrior's Fighter. I don't think it's T5, though.

[Coidzor]

Oh, and for Divine Mind, tweak them so they have Hidden Talent instead of Wild Talent and the type of their aura bonus to something that'll play nice with Bards/Marshals/Dragon Shaman or just allow 'em to stack w/non-Divine Mind sources. They need the love. Also, it should bear mentioning that Psicrystals have HD equal to their master and thus can be further customized with their feats, allowing for some interesting potential.

Depending upon whether a Fighter that gets an Animal Companion is T4 or not(IIRC, just the Animal Companion alone is ~T4) and source availability(I can't recall offhand if it's 3rd party or Dragon/Dungeon), a Paladin//Variant Fighter//Expert would be able to Supermount and still be a competent mounted charger/combatant in their own right while being able to contribute out of combat.


Oh, it's part of the generic classes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#expert). It's the Rogue to the Generic Warrior's Fighter. I don't think it's T5, though.

IIRC, The Generic Classes are T2 for the caster and then somewhere between low T3 and mid T4 for the other two, since the class features they're able to get by default aren't anything in T3 territory, but they are able to get unrestricted bonus feats, so they have a lot more feats to work with more freely than other characters.

But, more than other classes, they depend the most upon what they actually end up as and the DM's table rules.

[lytokk]

When I said my Fighter//Expert//Soulknife I was thinking the regular NPC class. the one without the feats. I never even knew about those generic classes. Which class is the one on the tier list? Generic Expert or NPC expert?

[Larkas]

When I said my Fighter//Expert//Soulknife I was thinking the regular NPC class. the one without the feats. I never even knew about those generic classes. Which class is the one on the tier list? Generic Expert or NPC expert?

The NPC. I was thinking about it too.

[Coidzor]

When I said my Fighter//Expert//Soulknife I was thinking the regular NPC class. the one without the feats. I never even knew about those generic classes. Which class is the one on the tier list? Generic Expert or NPC expert?

Not sure why Generic Expert got brought up, since you're not supposed to really mix Generic classes with the other ones to the best of my recollection.

Definitely a way to shore up the deficiencies of a class to gestalt it with either Generic Warrior or Generic Expert, though, depending upon their forte, even without the bonus feats, or at least, without the class features as bonus feats thing.

[lytokk]

Wraith brought up an expert with bonus feats, and I was confused, since the expert I was looking at had no bonus feats.

[Shining Wrath]

Wraith brought up an expert with bonus feats, and I was confused, since the expert I was looking at had no bonus feats.

And I always thought that UA Expert was T5 as well, since I didn't think feats were enough to move it up to T4. If feats were all it took, Fighters wouldn't be T5.

But I will bow to the collective wisdom of GitP, as must we all.

[Larkas]

And I always thought that UA Expert was T5 as well, since I didn't think feats were enough to move it up to T4. If feats were all it took, Fighters wouldn't be T5.

Feats alone may not be. Combine that with "any twelve skills as class skills" and "6 + Int modifier skill points per level", however, and you hit solid T4. Not unlike the Feat Rogue.

[Coidzor]

And I always thought that UA Expert was T5 as well, since I didn't think feats were enough to move it up to T4. If feats were all it took, Fighters wouldn't be T5.

But I will bow to the collective wisdom of GitP, as must we all.

A lot of the reason why Fighters are T5 despite their feats is that they're from such a limited list(as well as the problem of feat chains and feat taxes that were created partially because they gave Fighters the bonus feats that they did). If they had unrestricted bonus feats they'd have jumped out of high T5 and into low T4 proper, since even many good feats for melee combatants are not fighter bonus feats.

Or at least have progressed even closer to the brink. The customability of class skills and good saves is another advantage of the generic classes though.

[lytokk]

by that logic, the Generic Warrior would be higher tiered than the normal Fighter. They get the same number of feats, but the Gen War can pick from anything, including class abilities, and pick up some social or perception skills.

*edit* sonofacrap, fighter does suck/was really horribly designed.

[Larkas]

by that logic, the Generic Warrior would be higher tiered than the normal Fighter. They get the same number of feats, but the Gen War can pick from anything, including class abilities, and pick up some social or perception skills.

*edit* sonofacrap, fighter does suck/was really horribly designed.

Exactly :smallsmile:

[Shining Wrath]

Exactly :smallsmile:

Somewhere, Conan the Barbarian refuses to weep, and instead curses Crom for permitting WotC to botch his class so badly.

[lytokk]

Somewhere, Conan the Barbarian refuses to weep, and instead curses Crom for permitting WotC to botch his class so badly.

seriously, where's the like button? Do you mind if I sig that?

[Metahuman1]

I always thought of Conan as more of a "Apply sharp objects violently for the sheer infuriating levels of incompetence on display." kinda guy myself.

[Shining Wrath]

seriously, where's the like button? Do you mind if I sig that?

You may sig it as you like.

I should warn you, though, there's someone around here (I forget who) who insists Conan is a gish.

[Kioras]

The generic classes can also choose a class feature as a bonus feat choice.

With the proper skills assigned, you can always get as the warrior sneak attack, evasion, uncanny dodge, trap sense, smite, Favored Enemy.

I would probably class the warrior and expert as a tier 4 compared to the versatility compared to the vanilla warrior. The spellcaster(tier 2) is a weaker sorcereor, but may depending on reading give a more broad selection of spells from all the lists. Wider selection, less slots to buy them with however.

[toapat]

by that logic, the Generic Warrior would be higher tiered than the normal Fighter. They get the same number of feats, but the Gen War can pick from anything, including class abilities, and pick up some social or perception skills.

*edit* sonofacrap, fighter does suck/was really horribly designed.

It is Higher tier. The generic Warrior can nick a chunk of the core class features and has a mountain of Unrestricted bonus feats. At the cost of 2 proficiencies thats alot of power. The also quallify as a fighter for feats.

Generic Warrior// NPC Expert is higher tier then the Fighter//Expert, and the Generic Warrior//generic Expert is higher tier then both. Generic Warrior // Rogue is the greek god of mundanes

[Lans]

As for tier 5, short of the healer//paladin trick above I'm not sure ALL the tier 5/6s at once could push you above 4. Expert and Healer are the only ones that add anything new to the mix over just martial stuff of varying quality. Healer can be optimized to a higher level than it's peers by spelllist boosters, that that's not reallc covered in the tier list.

Figure between the healer, paladin, divine mind, mage wright, ninja and soulborn you are probably up towards tier 3 in abilities.

Wouldn't Ninja usually be better than expert?

[Coidzor]

Figure between the healer, paladin, divine mind, mage wright, ninja and soulborn you are probably up towards tier 3 in abilities.

Wouldn't Ninja usually be better than expert?

Yeah, main thing Expert gives access to is Diplomacy/Intimidate/Handle Animal/UMD/Iajutsu Focus(if kosher) and the ability to fill specific holes. Both have the same number of skill points and Ninja does have Trapfinding.

[Kioras]

I'm pretty sure this was partially discussed in the tier thread on minmax / gameologists, but I'd like real opinions for what I'm trying to do.

So anyways - I was trying to come up with pre-fab gestalt setups with 3 t5 classes which had the possibility to break the t3-t4 barrier.

One such combination was Monk - Swash buckler - Ninja (but it is so MAD that its not funny)
The other was Fighter - Soulborn - Paladin.

I gave up on MSN because of MAD issues and mixed up requirements (I just saw no synergy between the 3 classes).

I powered on for FSP and finished combining all three classes. I also took the liberty of replacing the mount with the charging smite ability, and for the fighter bonus feats allowed the FSP to get a divine or incarnum feat instead.

But now I am stuck wondering if the FSP really did rise to t3 or is stuck at high t4.

I am in the middle of working for t4 gestalts as well, but I'd like some input if combining classes is good enough to push past the barrier.

With what had been discussed in the thread, I have a two ideas on how a few classes might interact in interesting ways. The UA expert is a good class to add that nicely fixes the classes being fear or skill point starved. Since expert provides a feat at first level, you can always grab Dragontouched with youe level 1 feat, then dragon wings with your expert feat to open up flight at 6th level.

Warmage/knight/UA Expert.
Very Little MAD (Cha primary, with con/str/dex secondary), however charisma is a key stat for both the Warmage and the Knight. The UA expert gives the feats and skill points needed to power both classes, so you can set youtself up as an interesting Mage Knight, combining spells, with tanking. Armor Mastery + Armored mage allows you to easily wear heavier armor with little penalty. The only other change I would make would be a way to fit the channel spell class feature from some class(like ordained champions) added into it. Grab Wild Cohort, Dragon Cohort or Leadership to add in a mount for yourself. You can also use the extra feats to grab martial study + martial stance for thicket of blades at higher level to add to your stickiness. Working around the knights code might be the only issue.

Healer/Marshal/UA Expert
MAD (WIS primary(for spells) CHA secondary(aura's) ) You are the noncombative buffer/face for the group. Able to both throw up both healing and aura's. You can also grant extra move actions to your party which is quite useful. Expert can go ahead and provide you with extra feats to power both your healing, and also grab the feat Dragontouched, to provide you with access to the improved draconic aura's, and to be able to run 2 draconic aura's along with your Marshal aura's. The expert will also allow you to grab turn undead, allow you access to the various divine feats. The only slight problem would be working around the healers code regardarding metal armor.

I think both those combinations would be a solid tier 3, and could hit tier 2 when used with ways to expand the spell lists of both classes. You are able to do several support functions rather well, and the extra feats allows you to those things supported by feats at the same time.

[lytokk]

I'm wondering, CA Ninja//Paladin? Where would that fall tier wise. Both classes benefit from a high wisdom, and with enough CHA, you become the party face, since you get the social skills from Pally, and the peception/stealth skills from ninja. Good fort and Ref, bad will, but with the CHA bonus and a high wisdom it'll be hardly noticeable. Granted, roleplaying this thing would require a loose interpretation of LG, unless you were a paladin of a god of stealth or something.

[Chronos]

Eh, the restrictions on the Fighter's bonus feats aren't all that significant. While there will be a few feats you'll want that aren't on the fighter bonus feat list, most of them will be. So you just spend your normal feat slots on those few, and then spend fighter bonus feat slots on feats you'd want anyway like Power Attack.

[NoACWarrior]

With what had been discussed in the thread, I have a two ideas on how a few classes might interact in interesting ways. The UA expert is a good class to add that nicely fixes the classes being fear or skill point starved. Since expert provides a feat at first level, you can always grab Dragontouched with youe level 1 feat, then dragon wings with your expert feat to open up flight at 6th level.

Warmage/knight/UA Expert.
Very Little MAD (Cha primary, with con/str/dex secondary), however charisma is a key stat for both the Warmage and the Knight. The UA expert gives the feats and skill points needed to power both classes, so you can set youtself up as an interesting Mage Knight, combining spells, with tanking. Armor Mastery + Armored mage allows you to easily wear heavier armor with little penalty. The only other change I would make would be a way to fit the channel spell class feature from some class(like ordained champions) added into it. Grab Wild Cohort, Dragon Cohort or Leadership to add in a mount for yourself. You can also use the extra feats to grab martial study + martial stance for thicket of blades at higher level to add to your stickiness. Working around the knights code might be the only issue.

Healer/Marshal/UA Expert
MAD (WIS primary(for spells) CHA secondary(aura's) ) You are the noncombative buffer/face for the group. Able to both throw up both healing and aura's. You can also grant extra move actions to your party which is quite useful. Expert can go ahead and provide you with extra feats to power both your healing, and also grab the feat Dragontouched, to provide you with access to the improved draconic aura's, and to be able to run 2 draconic aura's along with your Marshal aura's. The expert will also allow you to grab turn undead, allow you access to the various divine feats. The only slight problem would be working around the healers code regardarding metal armor.

I think both those combinations would be a solid tier 3, and could hit tier 2 when used with ways to expand the spell lists of both classes. You are able to do several support functions rather well, and the extra feats allows you to those things supported by feats at the same time.

Ah nice - I was looking for something giving Warmage a little boost while not being MAD as much. If a player is worried about mercy, theres a feat which changes your spell damage to subdual.

The Healer // Marshal is nice as well - its much much better than a dragon shamen at support, which I was trying to make a build for about a month before I gave up.

[Lans]

Have you considered letting classes with overlapping abilities and bodies getting a bonus of some sort?

Take your Fighter - Soulborn - Paladin build. They have overlapping base attack, HD, and fort saves. Maybe let it slide a class feature or a section of class features up 1 level per over lap, maybe 2 in the case of the base attack.

So it could have a Soulborns meldshaping at 1st and a paladins casting at third or both at second under this idea