How to dominate psions?

[RoboEmperor]

My main focus is psion telepaths. The problem is that they have high will saves and I want to use dominate humanoid on the telepath and make it craft a dorje of true mind switch for me (which will drain 10,000xp x number of charges I want) which would obviously cripple him forever.

I thought about using baleful polymorph to turn them into a chicken, polymorph any object them into some weak humanoid, and then spam dominate person over the next few weeks until I get a natural 20, but then it occured to me psions, unlick spellcasters, don't need speech, movements, or materials which means even as a chicken they are very dangerous so this method would not work.

So... what are some ways I can make this work? The two methods I thought of so far is
1. dominate a psion telepath at level 1, and level him up to 17 while casting dominate person on him every few days, but this method takes ages.
2. Battle with the psion until he exhausted all of his power points and then
a. imprison him
b. hire a few people to prevent him from having a good night's rest
c. Spam dominate person on him until you get a natural 20
These methods however have their flaws... so I am looking for alternatives.

Also, can I turn the psion into stone, dominate him, and then turn them back to flesh?

EDIT: Can I spam enervation on him to get him down to level 5 or something and then dominate person him?

[Phelix-Mu]

Whatever the answer may be, I'm pretty sure you can make it better by using ice assassin. IA makes all TO and PO involving spells way more effective.

I'd consider getting a way to Wis-dmg/drain the psion down to 0 Wisdom. This should render him more or less comatose, but not dead, and would hit him with a -5 penalty to Will saves (while also possibly rendering him helpless).

Alternatively, if you are really cheap, arrange to be on the Astral Plane. Gate the psion to the Astral Plane and command him to fail the save v dominate person. By RAW, this totally works.

[KillianHawkeye]

Also, can I turn the psion into stone, dominate him, and then turn them back to flesh?

This at least will not work. He wouldn't be a valid target while petrified.



Also, the rules for crafting a magic/psionic item don't allow anyone to spend so much XP that they'd go down in level, so I don't see how this plan has any chance of "crippling him forever."

[RoboEmperor]

Also, the rules for crafting a magic/psionic item don't allow anyone to spend so much XP that they'd go down in level, so I don't see how this plan has any chance of "crippling him forever."

I was not aware of this rule. It's just that dorjes have 50 charges and the rule says 50 x xpcost to cast it once, but I guess I can make a dorje with only 1 charge.



I'd consider getting a way to Wis-dmg/drain the psion down to 0 Wisdom. This should render him more or less comatose, but not dead, and would hit him with a -5 penalty to Will saves (while also possibly rendering him helpless).

This is brilliant! I can spam enervation on the guy til he's level 5 or lower (too low might risk killing him instead).

[Phelix-Mu]

This is brilliant! I can spam enervation on the guy til he's level 5 or lower (too low might risk killing him instead).

Be careful about attempting it on an actually comatose psion. There might be an argument that you can't dominate someone that has a 0 wisdom. But enervating will also help. As will poisons that damage Wisdom, the various conditions that penalize saves (dispel the guy's mindblank, then hit him with some kind of fear effect, perhaps...). Anyway, it's far from impossible to make even someone pretty powerful fail a save.

Ice assassin really is ideal. Ice assassin the psion. Ice assassin the ice assassin of the psion. Have the second ice assassin kill the first. Have the second ice assassin arrange the mind switch trick with the psion (which also involves making the psion fail a will save). Now you have the body of the psion with the mind of your ice assassin, a perfect copy of the psion that is totally loyal to your character.

[RoboEmperor]

Be careful about attempting it on an actually comatose psion. There might be an argument that you can't dominate someone that has a 0 wisdom. But enervating will also help. As will poisons that damage Wisdom, the various conditions that penalize saves (dispel the guy's mindblank, then hit him with some kind of fear effect, perhaps...). Anyway, it's far from impossible to make even someone pretty powerful fail a save.

Ice assassin really is ideal. Ice assassin the psion. Ice assassin the ice assassin of the psion. Have the second ice assassin kill the first. Have the second ice assassin arrange the mind switch trick with the psion (which also involves making the psion fail a will save). Now you have the body of the psion with the mind of your ice assassin, a perfect copy of the psion that is totally loyal to your character.

Can Ice Assassin cast spells that cost XP? I thought the answer was the same as a simulacrum, which is no.

[HaikenEdge]

Short answer is, you probably won't be able to. A telepath who can manifest True Mind Switch will be at least level 17, which means the character will likely have Mind Blank up all the time, and will be able to teleport away, Temporal Acceleration, Stygian Ward, etc, etc. A telepath who is a multi-step thinker, which psions should be, given their immense intelligence, would not so easily be caught out, to where you'd be able to actually dominate said telepath.

This doesn't even take into account telepaths who are non-humanoid, with your desire to Dominate Humanoid on the telepath.

It might take a long time, but the Dominate a 1st level Telepath, then level that Telepath to 17 is actually likely your only real option.

[NoACWarrior]

Well, there are multiple ways to make the Psion useless.

You could use a dozen lvl 5 spelltheifs which sneak attack the psion and steal all his powers. But that wastes money and is so inefficient.

If possible take 5 levels of war weaver, have him agree to be part of your "weaving session" after the weave is complete cast dominate person on your weave and BAM, no will save (you would be dominating yourself too, but since you already control your actions its cool).

If the Psion is an NPC you could try diplomacy to make him your fanatic. So long as he doesn't die he will do what you tell him to do.

[Phelix-Mu]

Can Ice Assassin cast spells that cost XP? I thought the answer was the same as a simulacrum, which is no.

Then it could probably just make use of an item of true mind switch that already had the xp invested in it? I dunno if power stones work that way, though. Also, I think you have possibly (and perhaps correctly) extrapolated your conclusion about xp spending and simulacra from the RAW. By RAW, simulacra is so vague that it's really unclear if it has xp to spend, and thus up to the DM. It is clear that it can't gain power (which probably rules out gaining experience), but it may already have some if it was a copy of a creature that had xp. If necessary, maybe temporary mind switch the second ice assassin and set up a delayed-effect true mind switch...hmmm, don't think that works.

Man, psionics really can lead to some bizarre rules interactions.

[Mithril Leaf]

Well, there are multiple ways to make the Psion useless.

You could use a dozen lvl 5 spelltheifs which sneak attack the psion and steal all his powers. But that wastes money and is so inefficient.

If possible take 5 levels of war weaver, have him agree to be part of your "weaving session" after the weave is complete cast dominate person on your weave and BAM, no will save (you would be dominating yourself too, but since you already control your actions its cool).

If the Psion is an NPC you could try diplomacy to make him your fanatic. So long as he doesn't die he will do what you tell him to do.

In order of why that won't work:
Any level 17 character worth his salt has some method of negating sneak attacks, my favorite is the gemstone of fortification. Alternatively he could metamorphosis into an elemental.
He can read your mind, literally. Tricking him will be damn near impossible, and what are you offering him that he actually wants?
Fanatic is negated by Mind Blank as it's Mind-Affecting.

Best bet is to level a first level telepath.

[Rubik]

Buy a thought bottle, pay the psion for the 500 xp it costs for him to place his xp total in the bottle, then pay for a few manifestations of Mind Switch and True Mind Switch to play roulette with you and another, to manifest Soul Crystal (placing True Mind Switch within it), or to craft a True Mind Switch power stone? Then he can use the thought bottle to revamp his xp total, and it's all much less of a hassle than it would've been otherwise.

Or just Planar Bind an efreeti and Wish for a Soul Crystal of TMS.

[RoboEmperor]

Buy a thought bottle, pay the psion for the 500 xp it costs for him to place his xp total in the bottle, then pay for a few manifestations of Mind Switch and True Mind Switch to play roulette with you and another, to manifest Soul Crystal (placing True Mind Switch within it), or to craft a True Mind Switch power stone? Then he can use the thought bottle to revamp his xp total, and it's all much less of a hassle than it would've been otherwise.

Or just Planar Bind an efreeti and Wish for a Soul Crystal of TMS.

Wish abuse solves all of my problems, except, that it is an abuse. The only way to use wish that is not an abuse in my opinion is to use it yourself and pay the exp cost OR craft efreeti bottles (which cost over 5800xp) and hope for the 3 wish result.

I am looking for alternative methods of getting what I want without using wish in the case that my DM disallows such abuse.

From what I researched from the internet, thought bottles are also banned very frequently.

[Red Fel]

Oh, using mechanics to control characters. How adorable.

If you want to dominate a character into doing something for you, any character, don't target the saves. Target the heart.

Every character has something they love, value, would kill or die for. This is as true of PCs as NPCs. (Or should be. Darn murderhobos.) Find what they love. Exploit it.

There is no save versus blackmail.

[HaikenEdge]

Oh, using mechanics to control characters. How adorable.

If you want to dominate a character into doing something for you, any character, don't target the saves. Target the heart.

Every character has something they love, value, would kill or die for. This is as true of PCs as NPCs. (Or should be. Darn murderhobos.) Find what they love. Exploit it.

There is no save versus blackmail.

Unless your target is a sociopath/psychopath.

[Captnq]

Use this spell.

TRANSFERENCE
- PLAYER’S HANDBOOK 2 (3.5)
Universal
Level: Bard 1, Cleric 1, Druid 1, Sorcerer/Wizard 1
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: 10 ft.
Target: 10-ft. radius burst centered on you
Duration: Permanent; see text
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: No
Wisps of ethereal light rise off the targeted creatures, consolidate into glowing orbs, and then streak toward the spellcaster, fusing with their body.
This spell allows you to store a transfer of XP from one or more creatures (maximum five), but only for the purpose of constructing an agreed upon magic item. The XP gained from other creatures through this spell is not counted toward attaining a new level. Targeted creatures must agree to the focus component that will be used in creating the magic item before allowing this spell to be cast on them. Once the spell is cast, targeted creatures control how much XP to transfer. You cannot accept a transfer of more XP than is needed to construct the agreed upon magic item. All the requirements for transferring XP, compensating for XP, and sharing XP costs apply to the casting of this spell. If allowable changes are made that require more XP, you must provide that XP yourself or cast this spell again to store a transfer of more XP as needed. If allowable changes are made that require less XP, the difference is returned to the targeted creatures in proportionate amounts (as per their original contributions). If you start making a magic item that is not allowed by even one of the targeted creatures, all the transferred XP is immediately returned to those creatures. If you spend at least one day making the agreed upon magic item, the XP is consumed regardless of whether the magic item is completed or not. If you start working on a new magic item after spending at least one day making the agreed upon magic item, the XP is consumed and lost (as per the normal rules for creating magic items).
Focus: The raw material of agreed upon magic item (for example, a cloak, sword, or wand).


Then PAY HIM CASH.

If time is an issue, use wish to speed up the creation time. "I wish this took less time to create" Any DM worth his salt will allow that as an "off label" use. If you are blowing 5,000 xp to speed up creation time, I reduce it to 8 hours. For big ticket items, the players consider it well worth the price.

[Eldest]

Oh, using mechanics to control characters. How adorable.

If you want to dominate a character into doing something for you, any character, don't target the saves. Target the heart.

Every character has something they love, value, would kill or die for. This is as true of PCs as NPCs. (Or should be. Darn murderhobos.) Find what they love. Exploit it.

There is no save versus blackmail.

You are also setting yourself up as a foe of a caster with 9th level powers and you will lose your leverage at the end of the deal.

[pwykersotz]

You could always target Fort instead. Necrotic Cyst and Necrotic Tumor are your evil, evil friends. :smallamused:

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I think it comes down to two options.

1: Ask very nicely for the Psion to make you the djore. Offer to pay the normal price + 25% + interest. Get the djore and go find your gold.

2: Go hire a Bard. Diplomance this NPC into the ground so that he just gives you the djore with one charge.

[Rubik]

Diplomance him? Diplomacy has a flat DC that's within reach of quite a few character builds, and it (along with effects such as Charm Person) can readily make you friends and allies.

Leadership or thrallherd and Undead Leadership and the various other Leadership feats can get you underlings that can make things for you.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Diplomance him? Diplomacy has a flat DC that's within reach of quite a few character builds, and it (along with effects such as Charm Person) can readily make you friends and allies.

Leadership or thrallherd and Undead Leadership and the various other Leadership feats can get you underlings that can make things for you.

I meant get the Bard to diplomance the Psion.

Pay the bard in gold, loose women/men, and ale.

If the Psion ever feels the need to retaliate then you have a buffer between you and the Psion... Remember folks you don't have to outrun the Psion just the Bard.