E6 Power Hungry

[Ruethgar]

What are some of the most powerful builds you can come up with for an E6 world? For this particular challenge, all books are available, but no spellcasting base classes are available(not even optional ones like paladin or ranger).

Edit: Hmm, originally it was no Spells, however I would loop Psionics in as well. Su and SP based classes are fine and there is no limitation of being able to go into a spellcasting PrC, just base classes.


Silverbrow Human White Dragonspawn Abomination Magic Blooded- the children were culled unless they could cast 3rd level spells from birth.
Warlock 1/Silver Dragon Bloodline 3/Chameleon 2/Uncanny Trickster 3
Feats:

1st: University, Able Learner, Learning Mastery, Lost Tradition
3rd: Sweet Talker
6th: Bonus Essentia
Floating: Shape Soulmeld

Uncanny Trickster has an ability based on class level that should be boosted by Bloodlines giving this build access to 5th level spells.

Warlock 3/Devil Bloodline 3/Uncanny Trickster(Warlock) 1/Hellfire Warlock 2
Feats:

1st: Shape Soulmeld(Strongheart Vest), Laborious Training, Learning Mastery
3rd: Sweet Talker
Congratulations on you can hit constantly for 16d6 every round and have a Greater Invocation.

[1pwny]

I'd make a fighter, probably some kind of thrower. In a world without magic, whoever can hit you first and hardest will win. Probably using some Master Thrower/Fighter stuff can give you good range on throwing weapons, and good damage.

Plus, because you'll dump all your points into dex for throwing, you can get a much higher initiative than a Str, THF Power Attack, +5 Greatsword dude.

Or, if you want an optimizer's answer, I'd make an optimized Hulking Hurler.:smallsigh:

----

I'm assuming you meant no Psionics or Swordsage-ish stuff when you said "no spellcasting base class".:smallsmile:

[Erik Vale]

Punpun. [A non-Paladin version obviously]
STP Euridite. :p
Warlock with HD cap increases for animate dead [The Dead Walk]. Again, :p
Otherwise... Give me a moment.

[NoACWarrior]

What are some of the most powerful builds you can come up with for an E6 world? For this particular challenge, all books are available, but no spellcasting base classes are available(not even optional ones like paladin or ranger).

Since I haven't played in E6 and only recently learned of the rules for E6 I don't know if this will work.

Two builds I wanted to try in low level format was a Kensai Incarnum blade Soulborn, and a level 6 binder.

The Soulborn build isn't fully powered until 7th level in a conventional game, but from what I know of E6 is that every level after 6 is a feat or skill points, not any more levels.

5 levels Soulborn 1 level Kensai - Azurin, take Combat Expertise, Shape Soulmeld (Incarnate Weapon), Weapon Focus Longsword, and Bonus Essentia at lvl 6. If you have additional feats after 6th or get flaws, take another incarnum feat for the +1 essentia to power your sword. Always have your Incarnate weapon longsword shaped, use that as your signature weapon in Kensai. When enhancing your signature weapon, toss 1 ess into your incarnate blade to make it magical, and enhance it to have the Soulbound Weapon Lesser special ability. In combat make sure to allocate all your essentia to the soulbound weapon lesser and the enhancement making it a +4 weapon. If you don't go the Kensai Route you can get expanded soulmeld capacity and make the incarnate blade a +3 weapon instead.

6 levels of binder taking improved binder feat - other feats can be anything. Make sure to pick up Buer as your only vestige, infinite party healing ensues. But thats all you are good for.

[Erik Vale]

I would go:
Feytouched [Flight, LA 0] Insectoid X touched [+2 Extra arms and bonuses] Xeph
-Rogue/Scout [Speed and Battle Fortitude]/Barbarian 1 [levels not figured out].
Pick up Wild Cohort, Leadership, Undead Leadership, Psicrystal Affinity, Mentor [+1 Level 2 'Cohort'], draconic mount, Extra Leadership, Ecclisiarch.

For Cohorts, have your Undead Spawn Maker [I think there's one you can pick up] ride your Dragonnel and sweep through dive bombing. Wild cohort is something with pounce abusing the same cheese you do for extra attacks. Living leadership can do whatever. Psicrystal is mostly for communicating with your Wild Cohort, but you could always spring for a Pearl of Speech. For combat I'm not precisely sure what else the Psic would do.

Mundanes are easy to bury in numbers.

Other feats sink in MWF, Improved Innitiative, and Martial Study [Some shadow Hand Technique] + [Feat for Stance] Assassin Stance, persistant attacker, Exotic Shield Proficiency, Tomtor Style, Neraph Charge.

You have all the benifits of leadership to abuse, including spawn due to your undead cohort, and if you boost dex you've a good chance on going first.
On your turn, either:
-Charge for a large full attack routine [Lion Totem] due to conealed weapons [complete scoundrel], guantlets, Dastana+Chahar Ania+Other Spiked Armor, Axeshield [Need ESP], Spiked Guantlet and Gloves of Endless Javalins. Javalins are then thrown. Go Whirling Frenzy if you wish, otherwise Favoured Enemy and ignore undead's SA immunity for when spawn turn on you.
Each attack causes a sneak attack due to being a charge or thrown [Neraph Charge], you've a good chance of going first, and melee attacks with javalins cause a extra throw. You can just throw to stay out of melee.
Use persistent attacker, you'll do less SA damage, but you can sneak attack on additional turns.

Due to E6, you loose point buy instead of levels for LA, and you can pick up extra feats over time... And that's a lot of feats.

[Seerow]

You say no casters, even partial casters. Does this also include alternate subsystems like Psionics, Binding, Incarnum, ToB, etc? (ie all of the things people are currently suggesting) Or are only people who cast spells from spell slots banned? Is Ranger/Paladin okay if you stay below 4th level in those classes (and thus don't get spellcasting)?


Or really, what actually is allowed in your campaign, since once you take even the partial casters away, if other sources of special abilities aren't available, you're left with like 3-4 classes in total, and it's going to be a really boring game. If you do have the ability to use other subsystems, you'll just grab a better class and run with that.

[OldTrees1]

Dragonborn Goliath Barbarian 2 (Goliath Barbarian, Spirit Lion Totem, Wolf Totem) / Warblade 4

Works as a Large sized, flying, melee, battlefield controller. You even get White Raven Tactics/Iron Heart Surge.

Traits: -1Fort/+1Will, -1Ref/+1Will
Flaws: -3 Fort, -1 AC
Feats:
1) Extra Rage
F) Combat Reflexes
F) Power Attack
2B) Improved Trip
3) Improved Bullrush
6) Knockback

[Ruethgar]

You say no casters, even partial casters. Does this also include alternate subsystems like Psionics, Binding, Incarnum, ToB, etc? (ie all of the things people are currently suggesting) Or are only people who cast spells from spell slots banned? Is Ranger/Paladin okay if you stay below 4th level in those classes (and thus don't get spellcasting)?


Or really, what actually is allowed in your campaign, since once you take even the partial casters away, if other sources of special abilities aren't available, you're left with like 3-4 classes in total, and it's going to be a really boring game. If you do have the ability to use other subsystems, you'll just grab a better class and run with that.

Spells and Psionics are the only two prohibited. SLA, Ex, and Su based classes are allowed. As for paladin/ranger <4, no as they can both gain spells with less than 4 levels(2 for palladin, 1 for ranger).

[Mithril Leaf]

Insectile Psionic Duergar Unarmed Swordsage 4/Barbarian 1/Fist of the Forest 1. Some feats go to Superior Unarmed Strike, Skill Focus UPD, and Snap Kick. You get base 2d6 damage on your unarmed strike and grab 6 Ectoplasmic Fists, Warforged Arms, a Battlefist, Improved Unarmed Strike, and eventually Empty Hand Mastery. You get (assuming my math is correct) 32d6 damage per strike, with three of them per round, and you can do it on a charge. Plus Con, Dex, and Wis to AC.

EDIT: 1/day you can deal 48d6 per hit. You can also do Monk 4 for a purely kosher build if you don't want any fun.

[Fable Wright]

Silverbrow Human White Dragonspawn Abomination Magic Blooded- the children were culled unless they could cast 3rd level spells from birth.
Warlock 1/Silver Dragon Bloodline 3/Chameleon 2/Uncanny Trickster 3
Feats:

1st: University, Able Learner, Learning Mastery, Lost Tradition
3rd: Sweet Talker
6th: Bonus Essentia
Floating: Shape Soulmeld

Uncanny Trickster has an ability based on class level that should be boosted by Bloodlines giving this build access to 5th level spells.
Aside from the hypocrisy of saying no spells and then amending it to no spellcasting base classes, this is using retraining to qualify for classes, which is debatably legal by RAW. Perhaps take it out of the OP?


Warlock 3/Uncanny Trickster(Warlock) 1/Hellfire Warlock 2
Feats:

1st: Shape Soulmeld(Strongheart Vest)
3rd: Sweet Talker
Congratulations on you can hit constantly for 16d6 every round and have a Greater Invocation.
This one flat-out doesn't work by any rules. How are you getting those 12 ranks in Know: the planes for Hellfire Warlock?

[Ruethgar]

I started with no spellcasting base classes thank you. I only amended to add psionics. Furthurmore, Chameleon need not be a spellcaster. His spells can be alchemical tricks or mundane means to produce the same effects. And the Chameleon is not using retraining at all. Two flaws, one first level and a human for a total of 4 as level 1. If you are referring to the skills, there is only a limit on the number of ranks per level, not the number of points invested. Could easily remove the sorcerer 6-7, it was just there to display the higher reaches of power.

As to the 12 ranks of Know Planes, I forgot about the Laborious Training, Learning Mastery, and the Devil Bloodline.

[Fouredged Sword]

In a world with no casters, the Pixi Warlock rules supreme. Shoot and move, shoot and move! 3d6 damage touch attacks from a flying invisible target that is 200ft in the air. With no casters to counter the invisibility, it will be unstoppable.

[Fable Wright]

I started with no spellcasting base classes thank you. I only amended to add psionics. Furthurmore, Chameleon need not be a spellcaster. His spells can be alchemical tricks or mundane means to produce the same effects. And the Chameleon is not using retraining at all. Two flaws, one first level and a human for a total of 4 as level 1. If you are referring to the skills, there is only a limit on the number of ranks per level, not the number of points invested. Could easily remove the sorcerer 6-7, it was just there to display the higher reaches of power.
Your mundane or alchemical tricks to create Black Tentacles or Magic Jar? How does that work, exactly? And regardless of the source, you set this up as a non-caster challenge for make a powerful build, and then the first thing you submit is a caster build, regardless of how you phrase it. And yes, I am referring to the skills. You have a hard cap on the number of ranks you can have in your skills equal to your level +3. Chameleon requires 8 ranks in Bluff and Disguise. Not seeing how you can enter at second level.


As to the 12 ranks of Know Planes, I forgot about the Laborious Training, Learning Mastery, and the Devil Bloodline.
Which means the build as stated was illegal. And sources on those feats?

[dextercorvia]

How are you taking the 3rd Bloodline level in an E6 world? It needs to be taken just before 12th level IIRC.

[Ruethgar]

I have always held that it was no base class casters. If you failed to read as such then that is your issue, not mine.

It is part of the variant options of a chameleon, no other explanation is required. As I said, there is a rank cap, not a point cap. The feats are from Ravenloft:Legacy of Blood and Mongoose:Ultimate Feats.

Bloodlines require you take the levels before x level or take an xp penalty until you level in them, they never specify that it must be at least a certain level or else there would be chunks of bloodline advancement missing or moved to the minimum level.

[Fable Wright]

As I said, there is a rank cap, not a point cap.
...You do realize that the prerequisites of Chameleon specify 8 ranks needed to enter the class, which are capped in such a way that you can only have sufficient ranks at level 5, right? And that the 'points' that you keep referring to are entirely irrelevant when trying to qualify, right?


The feats are from Ravenloft:Legacy of Blood and Mongoose:Ultimate Feats.
Right, abusing poorly balanced third-party materials to make similarly poorly-balanced builds. Perhaps try using material only published directly by Wizards of the Coast as most optimization challenges do?

[ddude987]

...You do realize that the prerequisites of Chameleon specify 8 ranks needed to enter the class, which are capped in such a way that you can only have sufficient ranks at level 5, right? And that the 'points' that you keep referring to are entirely irrelevant when trying to qualify, right?

I think there is actually a feat to increase skill ranks past what they need to be, so I guess you could qualify for chameleon 1 level earlier if done right.

[Mithril Leaf]

...You do realize that the prerequisites of Chameleon specify 8 ranks needed to enter the class, which are capped in such a way that you can only have sufficient ranks at level 5, right? And that the 'points' that you keep referring to are entirely irrelevant when trying to qualify, right?


Right, abusing poorly balanced third-party materials to make similarly poorly-balanced builds. Perhaps try using material only published directly by Wizards of the Coast as most optimization challenges do?

As is common, he set the rules initially so that his build works especially well while culling other common builds. In any case, perhaps it would be a good idea to make a real thread that is no caster classes in E6.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

There's the Kobold that gets Wizard 9 spellcasting at 6th level, and knows four 5th level spells and eight of each level from 4th-2nd.

Then you have Mystic Wild Shape Ranger, which turns into a Fleshraker for 24 hours/day and can cast 3rd level Wizard spells in that form, on the standard Ranger chassis for HD/BAB/saves/skills.

Finally, you can throw Bloodline level abuse onto just about any build, since they don't increase your character level they won't count against your limit of six levels. That allows you to qualify for skill prerequisites early (Wizard 1/ Archivist 1/ Mystic Theurge 4), boosts your caster level, and increases class-level-dependent abilities such as Death Attack DC.

Sadly enough, the official ruling on Bloodline levels' interaction with the Animal Companion class feature is nonexistent, since it's a level-based-threshold ability and not a per-class-level ability. If that weren't the case, one level each in Wizard, Sorcerer, and Bard with the Animal Companion ACFs, plus one level each in Druid, Beastmaster, and Abolisher with just three Bloodline levels would give you an effective Druid level of 23 for your animal companion's benefits. So you can get Exalted Companion for a Celestial Warbeast Fleshraker that has 17 HD, AC 37, Str 28, and Vow of Poverty with 17th level benefits from that. If you get two major bloodlines and increase it to six bloodline levels, that companion would be 27 HD and can have epic feats like Fast Healing and Epic Vow of Poverty.

[Erik Vale]

In a world with no casters, the Pixi Warlock rules supreme. Shoot and move, shoot and move! 3d6 damage touch attacks from a flying invisible target that is 200ft in the air. With no casters to counter the invisibility, it will be unstoppable.

Except all the other warlocks who play spotter for a bunch of archers.


There's the Kobold that gets Wizard 9 spellcasting at 6th level, and knows four 5th level spells and eight of each level from 4th-2nd.

Then you have Mystic Wild Shape Ranger, which turns into a Fleshraker for 24 hours/day and can cast 3rd level Wizard spells in that form, on the standard Ranger chassis for HD/BAB/saves/skills.

No spellcasting base classes.

[Ruethgar]

Chameleon: 4 ranks to start +3 from bloodline +1 from Learning Mastery or +3 from Unlocked Potential or +1 from that other one, urban contact feat from city scape. Only one third party material used. Also, I made the characters after I posed the challenge, the challenge was not build to the characters. My brother was the DM who put the limit on no spellcasting base classes but wanted the ability to attain spells via Ur Priest, Chameleon, Knight of the Weave, feats etc. to still be available if you worked hard at it as opposed to getting world altering abilities to start. Of course he has since altered it to no magical(Su, SLA or Spell, not even Swordsage or Crusader) base classes after that warlock which is a might bit more difficult but doable.

[TiaC]

So, here's a post from a thread challenging people to kill Asmodeus in E6. We had lvl 20 WBL, but only items that were available in E6 with double cost if they needed an artificer.


Killing him is too easy.

Old Unseelie fey gnome savage ghost 4 Gnome paragon 3/Cleric 1/Warblade 1/Tattooed monk 1
Str —(1), Dex 7, Con —, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 19.
Visit the Worm of Minaros for +1 Cha.
Buy a cloak of charisma +6 (-72,000gp)
Buy wand of Devil's Ego (-11,250gp)
Buy wand of Inner Beauty (-42,500gp)
Domains: Charm, Pleasure
Take lifesight, travel devotion, Ability Training/Advancement in charisma, Ability Focus(Malevolence) and Quicken Manifestation

He cannot see you while you are ethereal. Get close, use your wands and domain power. Next round, Travel devotion to move next to him, Manifest as a free action, activate your tattoo, then move into his square. He has to make a DC 39 will save with a -22 penalty or be possessed.

I could lose the cleric level without real problems.

Another build from that thread:

Adamantine
A two year old Lore Drake Steel Dragon (air)
Class: Dragon 4 / Sorcerer 1 / LA 1 (la-buyoff)
Feats: Reserves of Strength, Elder Giant Magic.
Spells: River's Ravages (dragonlance is 3.5 official 2nd party).

Adamantine casts River's Ravages using Elder Giant Magic & Reserves of Strength, his effective CL is 10 meaning he ages him self twenty years. This makes him Young and grants him 6 HD as well (total 11) as four levels of Sorcerer progression (total 8), as one of his HD greanted Feat choices he takes Practiced Spellcaster.

Using his new and improved CL (17), he recasts River's Ravages again. The spell doesn't stack into it's self and the +34 year effect replaces the last. He is now Juvenile and he gains another 3 HD (14 total) as well as another two levels of Sorcerer progression (total 10).

He now casts Bestow Curse as a normal 4th level Sorcerer Spell and per the BoVD chooses to age him self one age category making him a Young Adult. 17HD, 12th level Sorcerer, possible CL of 22. He takes Snowcasting, Frozen Magic, and Draconic Power for Feats and flies to a winter environment. There he recasts River's Ravages again with a CL of 25 replacing the prior Spell.

The 52 year old Young Adult Dragon then applies that previously cast Bestow Curse effect in the most favorable order. He is now an Adult. He has 20 HD and 14 Sorcerer levels. If you rob off other Spell Lists, Greater Bestow Curse is a 4th level Demonologist Spell, and while the names and functionality are close they are two different Spells. On the same token, so is Greater River's Ravages. Using either one he progresses to the next Age Category and is now capable of casting Hasten the End while allows him to continually age him self so long as he concentrates (which is a swift action through extraordinary concentration). Per the Epic Level Handbook he is now a Colossal True Dragon with 38HD and 24th level Epic Spellcasting.

Total Feats used: Reserves of Strength, Elder Giant Magic, Practiced Spellcaster, Snowcasting, Frozen Magic, Draconic Power, Extraordinary Concentration. We don't even need Flaws or Epic granted Feats to take them all.
This one could be made to fit the challenge with any Prc that advances casting at level one in place of sorc.

Here's (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=12594.0) the thread.

[Ikeren]

I came to drop the same link as the previous poster:
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=12594.0


Risky
Dragon Born Water Half-Orc
Base Abilities (PB 32): Str 16+1+4+4, Dex 18, Con 12+4+4, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 8 (while raging).
Paladin 5 / Lion Totem Barbarian 1
Feats (two flaws, one trait): Aggressive, Battle Jump, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Initiative, Shock Trooper.
Equipment (WBL 13,000gp)
+1 Valorous Halberd (8,310gp)
Wand of Waithstrike, 1 charge (15gp)
Wand of Guidance of the Avatar, 1 charge (90gp) x 3
Single +1 Eager Warning Shuriken (366.2gp)
4038.8gp left over.
Initiative: +17 = 4 (feat) + 2 (eager) + 5 (warning) + 4 (dex) + 2 (aggressive)
Damage: +35 = 7 (str+thf) + 15 (charging smite) + 12 (pa6+thf) + 1 (enhance)
Modifier: x4 (dive + battle jump + valorous)
Attack: +12/+7 touch melee (4d10+140), 294 avg after DR if both hit putting the Balor at -4 (helpless).

Risky's plan is to solo Balors during a weekend to power level and though his contacts in his Church of Heironous and his remaining gold he sets up a bet. The terms are simple, I bet you I can beat a Balor. He UMDs the skill boosting wand while the summoning spell is being cast there by ensuring his UMD check for Waithstrike works without fail. For the fight it's self he charges in and uses both his Smite Evils and hits the Balor so hard he falls over. Knock out in one round. But the Balor didn't die yet so no big boom, instead the Balor is at -4 HP, a 60% chance he'll die if left alone. Risky simply walks away and chucks stuff at him until the Balor explodes.



Risky already wins Initiative (+17 vs +9), we just need to improve his attack and damage with items!

#1. Buy him a Belt of Battle, add Furious, some str boosts, a Noble Pennon, a Scroll of True Strike, and upgrade his weapon.
#2. He UMDs a scroll of True Strike and uses the Belt to recover the lost action.
#3. His weapon is now a +5 Valorous Collision Morphing Gloryborn Manyfanged Dagger in the shape of a Halberd.
Str: 36 (+13) = 16 (base) + 1 (level) + 2 (horc) + 5 (inherent) + 6 (enhance) + 6 (greater rage)
Damage: 63 = 13 (str) + 6 (thf) + 5 (enhance) + 5 (collision) + 1 (gloryborn) + 21 (smite:[5+2]*3) + 12 (pa)
Multiplier: x7 = x4 (manyfanged) + x2 (valorous) + x2 (battle jump) + x2 (dive)
+40 Touch Melee (7d10+441) hits on a roll of 5 and deals on average 479.5 damage. After DR it's 459.5 and Asmodeus has 432 HP putting him at -27 and dead in one hit.


You could swap Paladin levels for Fighter/Rogue/Tome of Battle stuff and probably still make it work.

Plus some other threads:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=13437.0
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-160998.html