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Teapot Salty
2014-04-01, 08:51 PM
Hey guys. I have a couple different peaces of homebrew, for the ranger and rogue respectively. Both are in their skeletal stages. (A little less so for the rogue) And I need some help to a) Make them more complete, (help help help.....) and b) Balance them, both to the game and each other. I'm trying to make them around tier 3. (Note, I'm not trying to balance them to the other martial classes, only to each other and tier 3 classes. The ranger will almost certainly out damage the barbarian after this brew)

For the ranger, it is my humble opinion that they should be the best damage dealer among martial classes, on a reliable basis. (A barbarian should do more raging, a rogue more on a sneak attack) So I decided to give them an ability I call favored weapon. What this ability does, is you choose a weapon (such as short sword). Attacks with the chosen weapon weapon do +2 damage/level. That's it. Skeletal, so any help is much appreciated.

For the rogue, (this was awful to balance to the ranger ability, I need your help badly on this one. This is the before picture though) I believe that rogues should do high damage on sneaks, have more reliable ways to get them, and have instant kills. So I gave them: 1) If your attack roll exceeds your targets ac by 5, you get to sneak attack them. 2) Targets you sneak attack provoke an attack of opportunity. (If they were flat footed before, they still are. Yay! Chains!) 3) If you make a sneak attack, if your amount of sneak attack die is greater then your targets hd, they must make a fortitude save (dc 10+ your rogue level) or die.

EDIT: I'm trying to think of a barbarian brew that essentially makes you out damage the ranger brew while raging. And a fighter brew that increases ac.

Help would be awesome guys. And as always, go nuts.

~Corvus~
2014-04-02, 10:05 PM
Don't mind the lack of table-ness

I think Pid6 did an amazing job (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?122811&p=6799716&viewfull=1#post6799716) of fixing up the ranger, and in much the manner that you have proposed, but going with vastly improved Favored Enemy benefits.

As for Weapon shenanigans, Grod, with Ziegander's help, has done an incredible remix of the fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?276280), which changes weapon styles and fighting prowess into an incredible concept. You might just fall in love with it.

Ziegander has done an amazing job (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?189197) of redoing the rogue into a Tier-3 class. Particularly, it has a method of overcoming Sneak-Attack immunity on its own.

Ziegander also has a fascinating redo of the Barbarian in his extended signature which you might want to check out.

If you're still chomping at the bit to create, at least these will give you some ideas about how others put them together.

Teapot Salty
2014-04-02, 11:08 PM
Don't mind the lack of table-ness

I think Pid6 did an amazing job (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?122811&p=6799716&viewfull=1#post6799716) of fixing up the ranger, and in much the manner that you have proposed, but going with vastly improved Favored Enemy benefits.

As for Weapon shenanigans, Grod, with Ziegander's help, has done an incredible remix of the fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?276280), which changes weapon styles and fighting prowess into an incredible concept. You might just fall in love with it.

Ziegander has done an amazing job (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?189197) of redoing the rogue into a Tier-3 class. Particularly, it has a method of overcoming Sneak-Attack immunity on its own.

Ziegander also has a fascinating redo of the Barbarian in his extended signature which you might want to check out.

If you're still chomping at the bit to create, at least these will give you some ideas about how others put them together.

Those are nifty, though I will have to change them a bit to become more simple, if for no other reason that I'm playing with new players, not to mention I'm uncomfortable with adding to many abilities to a single class. That said, they are all phenomenal and I will definitely barrow some of the concepts. What about you personally? Do you think they are balanced? Do you think they need any major changes?

~Corvus~
2014-04-02, 11:30 PM
Those are nifty, though I will have to change them a bit to become more simple, if for no other reason that I'm playing with new players, not to mention I'm uncomfortable with adding to many abilities to a single class. That said, they are all phenomenal and I will definitely barrow some of the concepts. What about you personally? Do you think they are balanced? Do you think they need any major changes?

I've played with the ranger fix a few times and It's fantastic. Tier 3, and it's not too reliant on defensive magical items so you can get a super nifty bow or cool weapon combos earlier.

I know Grod and Zeigander spent huge time into the fighter fix: I have every confidence that it's quite balanced. The Rogue fix is...quite balanced. I haven't tested it, but Zeigander's fixes are among the best.

Spiryt
2014-04-03, 04:08 AM
For the ranger, it is my humble opinion that they should be the best damage dealer among martial classes, on a reliable basis. (A barbarian should do more raging, a rogue more on a sneak attack) So I decided to give them an ability I call favored weapon. What this ability does, is you choose a weapon (such as short sword). Attacks with the chosen weapon weapon do +2 damage/level. That's it. Skeletal, so any help is much appreciated.

.

Definitely needs specification of level it is attainable at and 'level' in general.

The ability itself is pretty potent and potentially abusable in 3.5 - by everything that can get huge amount of attacks. Not necessarily by rangers.

Favored weapons enhancement was kind of traditional Fighter shtick in D&D, BTW.

~Corvus~
2014-04-03, 12:51 PM
Definitely needs specification of level it is attainable at and 'level' in general.

The ability itself is pretty potent and potentially abusable in 3.5 - by everything that can get huge amount of attacks. Not necessarily by rangers.

Favored weapons enhancement was kind of traditional Fighter shtick in D&D, BTW.

Yep. Thus my pointing to Grod's fighter fix which does that in a gradual way that incentivizes investment into the class.

Dienekes
2014-04-04, 05:06 PM
Honestly, if you're intent is to fix these classes to be tier 3, you're going about it the wrong way. These classes already have numbers, sure you can give them bigger numbers, but their problem comes from versatility and the usefulness of their actions.

Take your fighter for example. He could have an AC of You Miss, and he wouldn't break tier 4. Because AC doesn't really increase it's effectiveness in anything other than enemies trying to kill it with attack rolls. Most enemies at high levels have numerous means of getting around that.

Instead, I'd ask yourself, how do you want the class to play? This doesn't mean 'deal the most damage in melee' so much as 'swift combatant who uses a mix of spells and martial attacks in combat and out of combat is a woodsman with skills based around hunting, tracking, and so on." Then think up abilities that help out the class to reach that goal and make the player feel like a ranger.

toapat
2014-04-04, 07:30 PM
if for no other reason that I'm playing with new players

Reducing options for new players is kinda counterproductive. the reason i personally shut down when looking at the skill list (also skill lists are never pretty, vertical lists on here.) for a class is that on the Character sheet, there is a wall of information you are assumed to have complete knowledge of, and presented in a way that is not by any measure pretty. you would be surprized at how quickly people pick something up when they enjoy it.

~Corvus~
2014-04-04, 11:52 PM
Agreed. Furthermore, new players would find things easier just creating fascinating characters, not balanced ones. Low levels are usually OK. Its 7+ that gets unbalanced.

T.G. Oskar
2014-04-05, 04:32 AM
Hey guys. I have a couple different peaces of homebrew, for the ranger and rogue respectively. Both are in their skeletal stages. (A little less so for the rogue) And I need some help to a) Make them more complete, (help help help.....) and b) Balance them, both to the game and each other. I'm trying to make them around tier 3. (Note, I'm not trying to balance them to the other martial classes, only to each other and tier 3 classes. The ranger will almost certainly out damage the barbarian after this brew)

The Ranger is pretty close to Tier 3; in fact, dangerously close, because the only thing that limits its access is that they don't get that ONE thing they're good at (Tracking doesn't count), and they're only moderately good at others. The Rogue is also pretty close to Tier 3, but that's a different monster: the real problem here is that the Factotum beats the Rogue in everything save for damage, because it has better Int synergy, better weapon choices and a smattering of spells and class features that surpass all the Rogue offers, not to mention Trapfinding. The Rogue *could* pull off with Special Abilities, but those are too few and acquired too late.


For the ranger, it is my humble opinion that they should be the best damage dealer among martial classes, on a reliable basis. (A barbarian should do more raging, a rogue more on a sneak attack) So I decided to give them an ability I call favored weapon. What this ability does, is you choose a weapon (such as short sword). Attacks with the chosen weapon weapon do +2 damage/level. That's it. Skeletal, so any help is much appreciated.

This "fix" is too unimaginative. It's basically Weapon Specialization for the same weapon at EVERY level. You'll get a HUGE boost to damage, but that's not enough to make it Tier 3. There's a reason why the Swift Hunter feat, the Wildshape Ranger and the Mystic Ranger on their own raise the Ranger to Tier 3, and why all three drive the Ranger dangerously close to Tier 2.

To note: the Swift Ranger stacks Ranger and Scout levels for purposes of Skirmish. At 1st level, a scout gets 1d6 worth of Skirmish damage; that's 3-4 points of damage so as long as you move; your "favored weapon" adds a fixed 2 points of damage, which is good on a crit but not as much as Skirmish. By 5th level, they get 2d6 points of damage (7 on average), while your favored weapon deals 10 points of damage. By 20th level, you're looking at 5d6 points of damage (17.5 on average) vs. 40 points of damage; that's more than twice as much the damage a Swift Hunter Ranger/Scout would get, but there's two things that make Swift Hunter more interesting. The first is the competence bonus to AC they get: that's +5 to AC, something that Rangers desperately need because they're limited to light armor if they want to use their combat styles. Second, Skrimish applies to just about ANYONE, and with Swift Hunter, you can deal Skirmish damage to your favored enemies. You don't need ONE weapon to deal damage; you only need to move and full attack, that's all.

Now, Favored Weapon will still deliver bigger and better numbers: after all, it's static damage, which means it multiplies on a critical hit. On its own, it'd be fair...for a given definition of fair: you get a MASSIVE boost to damage, but if you're disarmed, you're seriously crippled. You can eat through DR like nothing (you still deal damage after DR cancels most of it) and you can probably one-shot most enemies on a full attack, but that's it. Swift Hunter grants Skirmish, which adds AC and makes the Ranger a mobile combatant; even then, that's not enough to take a Ranger to Tier 3, because you're only increasing its damage output. It's borderline Tier 3 because you're very good at one thing (against certain enemies, you're a monster because your Skirmish, your Favored Enemy bonuses and your spells stack for massive damage output), but not that good at others: you can Search for traps but not disarm them unless you replace Track; you're excellent at tracking but that's only as useful as the DM allows; you're excellent at stealth because you get lots of skills and your spells definitely allow you to survive in the wild, but that's at most circumstancial. Wildshape Ranger boosts you up a tier because you can transform into lots of animals and get the spells to boost your form, while Mystic Ranger gives you better spellcasting while sacrificing very little.

In short: more damage does not make a Ranger Tier 3. You need to give it a proper niche other than melee damage.


For the rogue, (this was awful to balance to the ranger ability, I need your help badly on this one. This is the before picture though) I believe that rogues should do high damage on sneaks, have more reliable ways to get them, and have instant kills. So I gave them: 1) If your attack roll exceeds your targets ac by 5, you get to sneak attack them. 2) Targets you sneak attack provoke an attack of opportunity. (If they were flat footed before, they still are. Yay! Chains!) 3) If you make a sneak attack, if your amount of sneak attack die is greater then your targets hd, they must make a fortitude save (dc 10+ your rogue level) or die.

Hmm...intriguing proposal.

First, the addition to Sneak Attack. You still don't bypass the immunities to Sneak Attack nearly 1/3rd of all monsters in D&D have (particularly the single largest monster type, which is Undead), but at least it rewards having higher attack bonus. For once, I see something creative; it rewards precision, which is exactly what Sneak Attack (and Sudden Strike, BTW) is. Still not enough to raise them a Tier, but it's pretty damn creative. Kudos for that.

Second, enablling attacks of opportunity. That's also pretty damn creative, but I feel it'd be something that could be a Rogue special ability. At the very least, it should be a Rogue-exclusive class feature, because you're boosting Sneak Attack directly, not the Rogue class (which is why I said it should be a Special Ability, like those you get at 10th level and every three levels afterwards). The reason is that it makes the Rogue a team player, particularly with another Rogue, and it plays to its strengths; I can't see a Rogue NOT taking this. The problem is that...I don't see this playing well with other classes that have Sneak Attack, such as...say, the Spellthief? This feels like something dirty and devious that only a Rogue could pull off. Again, pretty frickin' creative.

Third...I have my qualms on this one. It's basically stealing the shine from the Assassin, but at the same time it'd be near worthless. HD on most monsters increases far more than its CR would allow, so it's at best a mook-killer, and not the best one at it. Anything immune to death effects would also be immune to your deadly Sneak Attack. It's just as creative as the other two, but this last one loses steam really fast. At least the DC for the saving throw is pretty fair (not half your Rogue level; your ACTUAL Rogue level!), though some Dex or Int would be welcome; it's not a bad DC for a saving throw, but if you're already taking down a mook, giving it a 5% chance to survive the blow is...kinda uninspiring for a 19th level Rogue, or even a 10th level Rogue. At least you can take 11 HD creatures if you multiclass into Spellthief...

Still: it doesn't address the Rogue's problem with entering into Tier 3. The Pathfinder Rogue added a few nifty things, but it STILL doesn't address that problem. I would strongly consider that you see the PF Rogue and consider even MORE to apply your modifications to Sneak Attack. The first could be a general SA modification, since by all means Rogues need that love; the second could be a minor Rogue ability, while the third could be a major Rogue ability and a direct boost to their capstone.

As an apart: do you like Rogues? Because those are the three most creative things I've seen you post, Teapot.


EDIT: I'm trying to think of a barbarian brew that essentially makes you out damage the ranger brew while raging. And a fighter brew that increases ac.

Help would be awesome guys. And as always, go nuts.

A Barbarian can already out-damage a Ranger that deals weapon damage + Str modifier + enhancement bonus + 40 points of damage while raging. It's called PA/Leap Attack/Shock Trooper: deal 1.5 times more damage than your weapon, take the penalty to your AC instead of your attack rolls, and still have enough Strength to get a huge attack and damage bonus. Honestly. The only way you could outdamage a Barbarian would be with TWF, and a Barbarian with Whirling Frenzy and Spirit Lion Totem STILL outdamage you. You could probably outdamage the Barb at ranged damage, though, but that's definitely ONE of the Ranger's specialties.

A Fighter that gets more AC is unimaginative and can't solve the problem of the Fighter. To be honest, that's about the ONLY class I declare a lost cause, and a friend of mine (one of the guys who posted the Dark Knight) is working on a Fighter rewrite, so it's not like I have an incentive to fix the Fighter.

Teapot Salty
2014-04-05, 10:17 AM
The Ranger is pretty close to Tier 3; in fact, dangerously close, because the only thing that limits its access is that they don't get that ONE thing they're good at (Tracking doesn't count), and they're only moderately good at others. The Rogue is also pretty close to Tier 3, but that's a different monster: the real problem here is that the Factotum beats the Rogue in everything save for damage, because it has better Int synergy, better weapon choices and a smattering of spells and class features that surpass all the Rogue offers, not to mention Trapfinding. The Rogue *could* pull off with Special Abilities, but those are too few and acquired too late.



This "fix" is too unimaginative. It's basically Weapon Specialization for the same weapon at EVERY level. You'll get a HUGE boost to damage, but that's not enough to make it Tier 3. There's a reason why the Swift Hunter feat, the Wildshape Ranger and the Mystic Ranger on their own raise the Ranger to Tier 3, and why all three drive the Ranger dangerously close to Tier 2.

To note: the Swift Ranger stacks Ranger and Scout levels for purposes of Skirmish. At 1st level, a scout gets 1d6 worth of Skirmish damage; that's 3-4 points of damage so as long as you move; your "favored weapon" adds a fixed 2 points of damage, which is good on a crit but not as much as Skirmish. By 5th level, they get 2d6 points of damage (7 on average), while your favored weapon deals 10 points of damage. By 20th level, you're looking at 5d6 points of damage (17.5 on average) vs. 40 points of damage; that's more than twice as much the damage a Swift Hunter Ranger/Scout would get, but there's two things that make Swift Hunter more interesting. The first is the competence bonus to AC they get: that's +5 to AC, something that Rangers desperately need because they're limited to light armor if they want to use their combat styles. Second, Skrimish applies to just about ANYONE, and with Swift Hunter, you can deal Skirmish damage to your favored enemies. You don't need ONE weapon to deal damage; you only need to move and full attack, that's all.

Now, Favored Weapon will still deliver bigger and better numbers: after all, it's static damage, which means it multiplies on a critical hit. On its own, it'd be fair...for a given definition of fair: you get a MASSIVE boost to damage, but if you're disarmed, you're seriously crippled. You can eat through DR like nothing (you still deal damage after DR cancels most of it) and you can probably one-shot most enemies on a full attack, but that's it. Swift Hunter grants Skirmish, which adds AC and makes the Ranger a mobile combatant; even then, that's not enough to take a Ranger to Tier 3, because you're only increasing its damage output. It's borderline Tier 3 because you're very good at one thing (against certain enemies, you're a monster because your Skirmish, your Favored Enemy bonuses and your spells stack for massive damage output), but not that good at others: you can Search for traps but not disarm them unless you replace Track; you're excellent at tracking but that's only as useful as the DM allows; you're excellent at stealth because you get lots of skills and your spells definitely allow you to survive in the wild, but that's at most circumstancial. Wildshape Ranger boosts you up a tier because you can transform into lots of animals and get the spells to boost your form, while Mystic Ranger gives you better spellcasting while sacrificing very little.

In short: more damage does not make a Ranger Tier 3. You need to give it a proper niche other than melee damage.



Hmm...intriguing proposal.

First, the addition to Sneak Attack. You still don't bypass the immunities to Sneak Attack nearly 1/3rd of all monsters in D&D have (particularly the single largest monster type, which is Undead), but at least it rewards having higher attack bonus. For once, I see something creative; it rewards precision, which is exactly what Sneak Attack (and Sudden Strike, BTW) is. Still not enough to raise them a Tier, but it's pretty damn creative. Kudos for that.

Second, enablling attacks of opportunity. That's also pretty damn creative, but I feel it'd be something that could be a Rogue special ability. At the very least, it should be a Rogue-exclusive class feature, because you're boosting Sneak Attack directly, not the Rogue class (which is why I said it should be a Special Ability, like those you get at 10th level and every three levels afterwards). The reason is that it makes the Rogue a team player, particularly with another Rogue, and it plays to its strengths; I can't see a Rogue NOT taking this. The problem is that...I don't see this playing well with other classes that have Sneak Attack, such as...say, the Spellthief? This feels like something dirty and devious that only a Rogue could pull off. Again, pretty frickin' creative.

Third...I have my qualms on this one. It's basically stealing the shine from the Assassin, but at the same time it'd be near worthless. HD on most monsters increases far more than its CR would allow, so it's at best a mook-killer, and not the best one at it. Anything immune to death effects would also be immune to your deadly Sneak Attack. It's just as creative as the other two, but this last one loses steam really fast. At least the DC for the saving throw is pretty fair (not half your Rogue level; your ACTUAL Rogue level!), though some Dex or Int would be welcome; it's not a bad DC for a saving throw, but if you're already taking down a mook, giving it a 5% chance to survive the blow is...kinda uninspiring for a 19th level Rogue, or even a 10th level Rogue. At least you can take 11 HD creatures if you multiclass into Spellthief...

Still: it doesn't address the Rogue's problem with entering into Tier 3. The Pathfinder Rogue added a few nifty things, but it STILL doesn't address that problem. I would strongly consider that you see the PF Rogue and consider even MORE to apply your modifications to Sneak Attack. The first could be a general SA modification, since by all means Rogues need that love; the second could be a minor Rogue ability, while the third could be a major Rogue ability and a direct boost to their capstone.

As an apart: do you like Rogues? Because those are the three most creative things I've seen you post, Teapot.



A Barbarian can already out-damage a Ranger that deals weapon damage + Str modifier + enhancement bonus + 40 points of damage while raging. It's called PA/Leap Attack/Shock Trooper: deal 1.5 times more damage than your weapon, take the penalty to your AC instead of your attack rolls, and still have enough Strength to get a huge attack and damage bonus. Honestly. The only way you could outdamage a Barbarian would be with TWF, and a Barbarian with Whirling Frenzy and Spirit Lion Totem STILL outdamage you. You could probably outdamage the Barb at ranged damage, though, but that's definitely ONE of the Ranger's specialties.

A Fighter that gets more AC is unimaginative and can't solve the problem of the Fighter. To be honest, that's about the ONLY class I declare a lost cause, and a friend of mine (one of the guys who posted the Dark Knight) is working on a Fighter rewrite, so it's not like I have an incentive to fix the Fighter.

I don't want to quote something this long, but it's all necessary. First of all thanks so much for your advice and comments. I agree on every level that it's unimaginative, I like it cause I'm a "I hit it with my two axes for massive damage!" sort of guy, but it needs salt. A lot of salt. I'm trying to think of maneuvers or something to boost damage, and give it combat options. Maybe stance like things that only apply in certain situations and give different affects? Attack someone from above get +5 to attack rolls and damage. I'll look into it.

I really don't have anything to say to your rogue points other than thank you, and yes, I do love rogues.


For your barbarian, can it outdamage the favored weapon while un optimized, and in core?

For fighter. I am considering an ability I call castle rush. Essentially it adds half your ac to your damage roll on an attack. At tenth level it's beefed up to do your full ac on an attack. And at 20th, it does your ac x 2 damage on an attack. Still a little unimaginative, but it makes use of your ac offensively.