Best classes for a no-magic campaign?

[heavyfuel]

Hey guys.

So my friend wants to DM a more realistic game where there is no magic (anything that resembles magic, including some martial schools and psionics)

My other friends (players) and I were discussing the best classes to play. My vote went to Zhentarim Fighter with Imperious Command and a 2lv dip in Pally of Tyrany for Cha synergy. One suggested the Warblade cuz it's the only mundane tier 3. While I definitely agree WB are a strong choice, I still think that since most people won't have their Wisdom very high, making foes cower almost every turn can be ridiulously good.

Well, what's your guys opinions?

[Doc_Maynot]

I'd say, I'd play a factotum in that campaign. T3 class that would work perfectly fine (in comparison) stripped of it's Arcane Dilettante and Opportunistic Piety abilities. One still get's all the other Factotum goodness without having to compete with spellcasting. And if some martial schools are banned too, it would probably be a safe bet that would require less headaches for the DM to sift through.

[Gavinfoxx]

The homebrew Martial Dilettante Factotum.

[Captnq]

Anything with fast healing.

Seriously, NO magic, at all? I'll be unstoppable with Fast Healing 1.

Get Alchemy. LOTS of alchemy. A gnome calculus and an assortment of flasks will damn effective.

Class is mostly pointless if there is no magic. And by no magic I mean, No Spells, Spell-like abilities, or Supernatural abilities.

However, what you DO want is grafts! Tons and Tons of grafts. Especially a illithid weapon graft because it could turn a +10 sword into an extraordinary ability.

[Tohsaka Rin]

Anything, then Exemplar.

The sheer ability to DO stuff with all-around high skill checks is something not to be taken lightly. After all, no magic, means there's going to be no magical locks, no magical scrying, no magical alarms on anything.

A ton of counters to general utility just went up in smoke.

...That, and your ability to be a Diplomancer is NOT magical. That's called 'cult of personality'. Buff up your perform (dance) skill, go out there, and be the king of pop.

[ekans]

Get Alchemy. LOTS of alchemy. A gnome calculus and an assortment of flasks will damn effective.



Actually, spellcasting is a requirement for creating alchemical items, so those are out too.

[heavyfuel]

I'd say, I'd play a factotum in that campaign. T3 class that would work perfectly fine (in comparison) stripped of it's Arcane Dilettante and Opportunistic Piety abilities. One still get's all the other Factotum goodness without having to compete with spellcasting. And if some martial schools are banned too, it would probably be a safe bet that would require less headaches for the DM to sift through.


The homebrew Martial Dilettante Factotum.

Hmmm, haven't even considered factotum. I don't think the DM would allow the homebrew (Full BAB and maneuvers), but I can definitely see him allowing the class without Spell-like. With Iajutsu Focus and the Quickrazor it'll probably do more damage than most classes haha.


Anything with fast healing.

Seriously, NO magic, at all? I'll be unstoppable with Fast Healing 1.

Get Alchemy. LOTS of alchemy. A gnome calculus and an assortment of flasks will damn effective.

Class is mostly pointless if there is no magic. And by no magic I mean, No Spells, Spell-like abilities, or Supernatural abilities.

However, what you DO want is grafts! Tons and Tons of grafts. Especially a illithid weapon graft because it could turn a +10 sword into an extraordinary ability.

Care to explain the uber-ness of fast healing? I get that it's great outside of combat, but how does it make you unstopable?

Don't you need to be a wizard to get Alchemy? I'm pretty sure you do (at least have some spellcasting).

How are classes pointless? Class features that allow you to do things you otherwise can't seem like a pretty big deal.

I know I said no "magic" but I also said anything that resembles magic is forbidden too. Getting a +10 weapon as an ex ability would be banned as well

[Captnq]

Care to explain the uber-ness of fast healing? I get that it's great outside of combat, but how does it make you unstopable?


Ah. That 2 HP a day from resting is not going to cut it. A healing check might up it a few points, but let's face facts. Without magic, damage is deadly. Fast Healing 1 allows me to flirt with death every combat, wait a few minutes, then I'm ready to flirt with death again.

No Magic = No Wands of Vigor = No Cheap Healing.



Don't you need to be a wizard to get Alchemy? I'm pretty sure you do (at least have some spellcasting).


Depends on your source.




How are classes pointless? Class features that allow you to do things you otherwise can't seem like a pretty big deal.


Because the major kick is going to be from feats, not from your class. if you exclude any magical class, you are excluding from core: Bard, Cleric, Druid, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Sorcerer, Wizard.

That leaves you Barbarian, Fighter, And Rogue. (Barbarian: 1/Fighter 1,2/Barbarian: 2-18), or some variant thereof. Maybe you take a level of rogue and substitute out the sneak attack for an extra feat.



I know I said no "magic" but I also said anything that resembles magic is forbidden too. Getting a +10 weapon as an ex ability would be banned as well

Again, fast heal rules because if anything "resembling" magic is not allowed, then EX healing is the best you are going to get.

[Doc_Maynot]

So, Human Factotum with Toughness and Troll Blooded(DR#319) at first level to get regeneration which IMO is better than fast healing, later taking one level in horizon walker to become immune to fatigue for maximum effectiveness?
.

[NoACWarrior]

Aww so no incarnum, vestiges, psionics, or spell like abilities.

What about Dragon Shaman or the Monk's healing touch?
What about DS's auras?
What about paladin lay on hands?
What about turning feats which create healing or other effects (unless noted by the turning feat, the effect is Ex in nature, while turning may be Su)

Also in the note of Ex based fast healing - I bet alot of fighters will be going Combat Focus-Combat Vigor and sparing with saps to regen their hitpoints. :smallwink:
Or crusaders / warblades using special maneuvers on trees or with saps against each other.

[heavyfuel]

Ah. That 2 HP a day from resting is not going to cut it. A healing check might up it a few points, but let's face facts. Without magic, damage is deadly. Fast Healing 1 allows me to flirt with death every combat, wait a few minutes, then I'm ready to flirt with death again.

No Magic = No Wands of Vigor = No Cheap Healing.

Got it. I though you ment being unstopable during combat, but yeah, outside encounters it's awesome.


Depends on your source.

3.5 PHB, so... no alchemy for me I guess. I probably should've mentioned that.


Because the major kick is going to be from feats, not from your class. if you exclude any magical class, you are excluding from core: Bard, Cleric, Druid, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Sorcerer, Wizard.

That leaves you Barbarian, Fighter, And Rogue. (Barbarian: 1/Fighter 1,2/Barbarian: 2-18), or some variant thereof. Maybe you take a level of rogue and substitute out the sneak attack for an extra feat.

It's all books available, so even Pally and Ranger are allowed with the spell-less variant. Not sure about the monk because I'm really not that used to the class. Like people mentioned, factotum is great for breaking the action economy in a mundane way. Zhentarim Fighter has a skill based crowd control that you can't get elsewhere. Warblade and Crusader can use maneuvers and stances that no one else can unless you spend all your feats on martial training and not even then.

All in all, I really don't think class choices are going to be useless.

----------------------------------------------

Now here's a crazy idea, the reason people give crap about a Monk getting VoP is that there magical items other than armor and weapons to be bought. But in a world where there is no magic, most WBL will be geared towards hirelings, ships, castles and mundane things like that. So, is Monk with VoP still insanely bad or did he just get half decend?

[heavyfuel]

Aww so no incarnum, vestiges, psionics, or spell like abilities.

Yup, none of that.



What about Dragon Shaman or the Monk's healing touch?
What about DS's auras?
What about paladin lay on hands?

Honestly, I don't know. Given his idea as he told us, I'm gonna go with no for the healing things but yes for the aura if we re-fluff the aura as being similar to the Marshall's. Probably he'll allow something else in place of healing touch/lay on hands though.


What about turning feats which create healing or other effects (unless noted by the turning feat, the effect is Ex in nature, while turning may be Su)

Again, dunno. If the devotion feat needs to be fueled by turn attempts I think it's a no. But for ones like Knowledge Devotion (really don't know if there's any other) it would be a yes.


Also in the note of Ex based fast healing - I bet alot of fighters will be going Combat Focus-Combat Vigor and sparing with saps to regen their hitpoints. :smallwink:
Or crusaders / warblades using special maneuvers on trees or with saps against each other.

Yeah, I'm starting to see just about everyone on the table get something like that. Altough he did mention buffing the Heal skill, so we'll need to see about that.

[heavyfuel]

Btw, If I were to take Exemplar, Is there anything I could do with all that Will save? With no spells I honestly can't see how they'll be useful.

[3drinks]

With no magicks? Factotum and Tome of Battle will be your best choices (ToB maneuvers are Ex).

As for the Alchemy comment, you don't need to be a Wizard to use it - it's under Craft (Alchemy) now. So by RAW, anyone could have ranks in it as everyone gets Craft as a class skill.

[Slipperychicken]

Hop on a mount (ideally a fast, flying one with Good or better maneuverability) and pick up a ranged weapon. Puny mortals and their melee focus will be helpless against your ranged might. Deflect Arrows would also be good to let you laugh at the archer-mortals. Also, if you run low on health, put up the tower shield while your mount takes actions to retreat and your regeneration/fast-healing takes care of the damage.

Also it could work to use an elvencraft bow as a Warblade. Kite foes normally. When a ranged attack comes your way, use that parrying maneuver (Wall of Blades?) to block it with your bow's club/quarterstaff functionality.

I believe there's some manner of nonmagical paste which heals people when applied, so that could help. I don't know much else, but I recall seeing it somewhere in Shax's haversack.

[Vizzerdrix]

Troll Blooded Ranger, then boost Handle animal. Go nuts with war trained riding dogs.

For weapons look to the spear and war spikards from either magic of Eberon or Eberon campaign setting (also has the Alchemy blade) to push a little extra damage out of your gear.

Unearthed Arcana has a feat in it that lets non casters make alchemical items. One to keep in mind is healing salve ( I don't remember the book. Sorry).
Complete Arcane has a breathing mask alchemical item, and either Unapproachable East or Oriental Adventures has eggshell grenades.

Just keep in mind that D&D wasn't built for non magic games and try to have fun.

[Crake]

With no magicks? Factotum and Tome of Battle will be your best choices (ToB maneuvers are Ex).

Ex by default, yes, but a bunch of them are Su.

[NoACWarrior]

Su Maneuvers don't seem to be off the table so long as they are martial in origin and have no magic like effect (including HP healing).

Any Su ability which heals was noted to be changed to something else.

In either case ToB is one of the best books for this. Melee / Phys doesn't get enough love in prior books. Sure you can make a charger which does massive damage, but will that help you break a lock, erm open a door, erm diplomacy with the BBEG, erm drink... a safe one... ah yes drink.

[SciChronic]

factotum is near the top of tier 3, but the removal of its SLAs makes is a lot weaker, getting your DM to allow a martial factotum variant would be good.

crusader was great for sustain with its built in healing strikes and general slaying power

warblade is great for raw damage as well plus IHS and WRT

i could see a swift hunter ranger doing a lot of wor as well

i once made an unarmed skillmonkey who could deal a pretty impressive amount of damage via invisible fist + decisive strike + sneak attacks i could see him making out real well in that world.

the good old captain america shield throwing bloodstorm blade could do well too, but thats more of an extension of warblade so...

[Rubik]

With no magicks? Factotum and Tome of Battle will be your best choices (ToB maneuvers are Ex).And best of all, they multiclass with each other very, very well.


As for the Alchemy comment, you don't need to be a Wizard to use it - it's under Craft (Alchemy) now. So by RAW, anyone could have ranks in it as everyone gets Craft as a class skill.Except you explicitly cannot use the skill -- no matter how many ranks you have -- unless you're a spellcaster. It's inane and stupid, but them's the rules.

Also, everyone should specialize in hiding, with Hide in Plain Sight, Darkstalker, and so on. It's the best way to protect yourself against being hurt, especially if healing and status mitigation are now nigh impossible. Though if you have access to the healing maneuvers and stances, and Iron Heart Surge, go for them ASAP.

[Eldariel]

Warblade, Crusader, Factotum and even Rogue, Barbarian, Swordsage (losing two schools really hurts), Ranger & Fighter are all okay.

[Gwendol]

In general you'll get a lot of mileage out of ToB classes (especially Crusader), but also skillful classes like scout, ranger, and rogue. Try to get Hide in Plain Sight early (through a template if possible).

Mobile archers could rule in this game.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Fighter 9/ Warblade 10/ Fighter 1, with the Dungeoncrasher, Zhentarim Soldier, and Dead Levels (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a) class features. Get all the standard fear tricks (Dreadful Wrath, Never Outnumbered, Imperious Command), Knock-Back if you're big enough, and at 20th level you can spend your Fighter 10 bonus feat on Weapon Supremacy.

[HaikenEdge]

Factotum and Warblade are likely your best options; Warblades generally have few Su martial maneuvers, and Factotums, if you avoid the Opportunistic Piety and Arcane Dilettante abilities, still get to add their Intelligence to a lot of stuff.

I agree with the Troll-Blooded/Fast Healing route; without magical healing, your best bet is to find a way to quickly heal yourself, so I'd suggest maybe even taking a flaw to get the Tireless/Toughness/Troll-Blooded combo, just to avoid the fatigue from being in sunlight while still gaining regeneration. Might be even better if you somehow get Fast Healing on top of that. Iron Heart Surge will take care of things like Ability Damage, and Diamond Mind, Stone Dragon and Tiger Claw maneuvers will give you the ability to target enemy ability scores, for when you don't want to attack their HP.

[Felvion]

What about companions and familiars? Are they in? Will there be any magical monsters in this world?

All these would make a druid an interesting shot. Sure no spells but a wartrained pet is always worth it. In low stat games it usually outshines the pure fighting classes. High charisma/handle animal/wild empathy could make you lead an army of furry friends to help you in all kinds of stuff (guarding, tracking, messaging). Additionally, since the world lacks casters you would be really special in a world full of martial-focused people and dont forget the heal skill...

In case monsters-familiars are in the shadowdancer would really seem too appealing for a roguish character.

[Ruethgar]

Scientists from Ravenloft in a world without magic means you win with science. With enough shenanigans you can enter at character level one, but I like to enter with expert since I can pick up lucid dreaming and autohypnosis. Ravenloft is under WotC so would be 2nd party sort of thing and may be prohibited.

Warblade is the least magical of the ToB classes and can be pretty powerful.

Monks are a little on the magical side(turning into an outsider and getting slow fall), though I doubt they would be prohibited. Barbarian/Fighters are a good substitute for unarmed if they are though.

Chameleons will be awesome if you can't have scientists. As part of their alternate options their spells can be non-magical but have the same effect.

[Tyger]

We are currently running a no-magic campaign (set in Westeros) and have had a great time with it. We're using a few alternate rules to change things up, including the Vigor/Wounds system to help deal with combat damage, and a change to the Heal skill to allow for some rather limited healing possibilities.

Long and short, it has been awesome and is one of my favorite campaigns in a long time. Travel and weather are actual issues now, and problems have to be solved by good old ingenuity, which magic had become a substitute for. It has meant a lot of balancing for us, and especially by me (the DM) to make sure things stay challenging without being overpowering, but its been great.

Our group includes a Scout/Rogue, a Rogue/fighter (more of an assassin than anything), a Knight / Crusader, a Warblade and a Swordsage (minus the Su abilities/maneuvers). They are doing extremely well.

The ability to hide is huge, and it is the first campaign I've seen where EVERYONE worries about cover and concealment. Everyone also has at least a rank or two in Heal, and the Survival skill has come into play more than I ever thought I would see.

Enjoy the game, it is a refreshing change for us and I hope it is for you as well. I second the above statements about the ToB classes being highly valuable - their maneuvers can make a huge difference in a combat, while they stay relevant outside of the combat as well.

[Gavinfoxx]

Here are some classes you want to start with, and then replace their Su abilities and spellcasting with Ex abilities...

Rogue
Ranger
Paladin
Fighter
Barbarian
Knight
Marshal
Ninja
Samurai
Scout
Swashbuckler
Crusader
Warblade
Expert
Factotum

Unfortunately, some those classes have spells (ranger, paladin), and the various 'magic-less' variants are kinda, uh. Iffy (remove spells and add spell like abilities of those spells you removed!).

[XmonkTad]

If alchemy is out craft(poison making) can be your new go-to. If trapmaking is in, you might want to be a sneaky combat trapsmith instead (trapsmith is out though). A bunch of combat trapsmith's traps require alchemy, but a few don't. Booby traps from DMGII will help at low levels (as they can be made for free with a survival check).

In no-magic land combat will be so dangerous it should probably be avoided at all costs. Sniper characters, characters that can kite, and tricksters will outlive the ubercharger. Heck, this might be the only time a character that focuses on trapmaking gets to shine.

[Eldest]

Ex by default, yes, but a bunch of them are Su.

1/3rd of two different schools are not Ex. So a bit over 10% of the total maneuvers.

[Telonius]

This might be a job for Takahashi no Onisan (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=153726). If it's absolutely no-magic, some of the build would have to change (no Fearsome enhancement to armor, no grafts, and I'm guessing the Shadow Hand stuff would be prohibited) but the basic build would be sound.

[The Prince of Cats]

A healing check might up it a few points, but let's face facts. Without magic, damage is deadly. Fast Healing 1 allows me to flirt with death every combat, wait a few minutes, then I'm ready to flirt with death again.
Well, you might beg for some variant rules, unless you want Shadowrun-like levels of lethality:

The Pathfinder version of Heal (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/heal) allows you a DC 20 check which uses two doses from a heal kit to restore 1hp/level over the course of an hour. That works out at 4hp/day for 24 hours of long-term care + 1hp/level for the immediate efforts to heal up their wounds for 5hp/day and that'll take the average wizard from nigh-dead to full health in 24 hours.
Vitality And Wound Points (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/vitalityAndWoundPoints.htm) will also be a great idea.
In terms of systems, Pathfinder gives a few more options (especially the Gunslinger) and D20 Modern might suit your DM better.

[Metahuman1]

In case it's not been touched upon, you might wanna look at a different system for this. D&D doesn't really handle this kinda game that well.

Mutants and Masterminds with a couple of house rules and a low Power Level setting could do it.

Gurps or Savage Worlds could do it with the right rules set.

And the Conan D20 rules wouldn't be bad for this.

Just off the top of my head.

[gorfnab]

Spellless (CW) Wildshape (UA) Ranger 5/ Master of Many Forms 2/ Warshaper 5/ Master of Many Forms 8 - could be a decent melee option in a non magic game.

[Rubik]

Spellless Wildshape Ranger 5/ Master of Many Forms 2/ Warshaper 5/ Master of Many Forms 8 - could be a decent melee option in a non magic game.I don't think it's so much "no spellcasting" as "no magical abilities whatsoever," so I don't think that quite fits.

[NoACWarrior]

It was no magic / SLAs / Su Healing / Divine turn healing / Psionics / Incarnum / Vestiges / Truenaming.

Su are allowed so long as they don't emulate a magic spell. The OP also said any classes with Su Healing abilities would be mechanically changed to something different.
While magicless campaigns don't do well in DnD, they are feasable, you'd just need to be careful about monsters abilities as well.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Human Divine Minion of Anhur (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a), Wildshape Ranger 1/ Master of Many Forms 4/ Warshaper 4/ MoMF 6/ whatever. Note that Wildshape Ranger is used for Fast Movement. Also note that a Divine Minion can Wild Shape at will as a free action, and whenever you wild shape you heal as though you'd rested for a night. At ECL 4 you can take the form of a Cave Troll, at ECL 5 you can take the form of a War Troll. Don't forget to buy off the level adjustment.

[Doc_Maynot]

Just saying, I think Divine Minion would qualify as magical.

[1pwny]

Just do a quick Fighter/Order of the Bow Initiate/Peerless Archer/Deepwood Sniper splash (find them all on dndtools.eu), and then go crazy at long range.:smallbiggrin:

Hooray for using random obscure prestige classes that basically do the exact same thing!

[heavyfuel]

Wow, thanks for all the answers!

Like many were saying and some were ignoring, no-magic doesn't include only magic. Wildshape is clearly something that wouldn't be allowed even if I didn't explicitly said so. There are just way too many forms of magic in 3.5 for me to list every single one of them, but you if something sounds magical, odds are it isn't allowed.


In case it's not been touched upon, you might wanna look at a different system for this. D&D doesn't really handle this kinda game that well.

Mutants and Masterminds with a couple of house rules and a low Power Level setting could do it.

Gurps or Savage Worlds could do it with the right rules set.

And the Conan D20 rules wouldn't be bad for this.

Just off the top of my head.

Unfortunately the group is pretty dead-set on D&D. Taking the time for 6 people to learn a new set of rules is just too time consuming for most of us. This Conan d20 doesn't look too bad though.



This might be a job for Takahashi no Onisan (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=153726). If it's absolutely no-magic, some of the build would have to change (no Fearsome enhancement to armor, no grafts, and I'm guessing the Shadow Hand stuff would be prohibited) but the basic build would be sound.

I already had in mind a fear based character, but even without Fearsome or grafts, there'll be no immunity to fear from spells as well. Since almost no character will have a decent Wisdom, that makes demoralizing that much easier.


Just do a quick Fighter/Order of the Bow Initiate/Peerless Archer/Deepwood Sniper splash (find them all on dndtools.eu), and then go crazy at long range.:smallbiggrin:

Hooray for using random obscure prestige classes that basically do the exact same thing!

That would be awesome. Without windwall or anything like that archery just got 10x more interesting! And without any means of stopping crits, deepwood sniper will demolish all things haha


Hop on a mount (ideally a fast, flying one with Good or better maneuverability) and pick up a ranged weapon. Puny mortals and their melee focus will be helpless against your ranged might. Deflect Arrows would also be good to let you laugh at the archer-mortals. Also, if you run low on health, put up the tower shield while your mount takes actions to retreat and your regeneration/fast-healing takes care of the damage.

Also it could work to use an elvencraft bow as a Warblade. Kite foes normally. When a ranged attack comes your way, use that parrying maneuver (Wall of Blades?) to block it with your bow's club/quarterstaff functionality.

I believe there's some manner of nonmagical paste which heals people when applied, so that could help. I don't know much else, but I recall seeing it somewhere in Shax's haversack.

Hmmm, I'm not sure if we'll have access to flying mounts, but I'll keep that in mind. Also will try to find this paste you mentioned since it might come in handy



We are currently running a no-magic campaign (set in Westeros) and have had a great time with it. We're using a few alternate rules to change things up, including the Vigor/Wounds system to help deal with combat damage, and a change to the Heal skill to allow for some rather limited healing possibilities.

Long and short, it has been awesome and is one of my favorite campaigns in a long time. Travel and weather are actual issues now, and problems have to be solved by good old ingenuity, which magic had become a substitute for. It has meant a lot of balancing for us, and especially by me (the DM) to make sure things stay challenging without being overpowering, but its been great.

Our group includes a Scout/Rogue, a Rogue/fighter (more of an assassin than anything), a Knight / Crusader, a Warblade and a Swordsage (minus the Su abilities/maneuvers). They are doing extremely well.

The ability to hide is huge, and it is the first campaign I've seen where EVERYONE worries about cover and concealment. Everyone also has at least a rank or two in Heal, and the Survival skill has come into play more than I ever thought I would see.

Enjoy the game, it is a refreshing change for us and I hope it is for you as well. I second the above statements about the ToB classes being highly valuable - their maneuvers can make a huge difference in a combat, while they stay relevant outside of the combat as well.

That sounds beyond awesome. Someone else also mentioned that hiding is now one of the best skills and it seems about right. Dipping Factotum with Able-learner will be blessing.

[Grayson01]

Ah. That 2 HP a day from resting is not going to cut it. A healing check might up it a few points, but let's face facts. Without magic, damage is deadly. Fast Healing 1 allows me to flirt with death every combat, wait a few minutes, then I'm ready to flirt with death again.

No Magic = No Wands of Vigor = No Cheap Healing.



Depends on your source.




Because the major kick is going to be from feats, not from your class. if you exclude any magical class, you are excluding from core: Bard, Cleric, Druid, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Sorcerer, Wizard.

That leaves you Barbarian, Fighter, And Rogue. (Barbarian: 1/Fighter 1,2/Barbarian: 2-18), or some variant thereof. Maybe you take a level of rogue and substitute out the sneak attack for an extra feat.



Again, fast heal rules because if anything "resembling" magic is not allowed, then EX healing is the best you are going to get.

Ranger can stay you can just take the no spell casting varient from the Complete Champion also there is one for the Paladin but not sure how the DM would feel about all the other divine bestowed class features.

Honestly in a no Magic campaign I would go Ranger, Rouge, or the Nerphed Factoum. Scout might be fun to play in this case.

What will the enemies be in this since there is no magic?

[heavyfuel]

Ranger can stay you can just take the no spell casting varient from the Complete Champion also there is one for the Paladin but not sure how the DM would feel about all the other divine bestowed class features.

Honestly in a no Magic campaign I would go Ranger, Rouge, or the Nerphed Factoum. Scout might be fun to play in this case.

What will the enemies be in this since there is no magic?

Yup, we'll be using the spell-less pally and ranger from CW

Enemies are up to the DM, but probably non-magical monsters and equally non magical humanoids

[The Prince of Cats]

If they're dead-set on D&D, might a nudge toward Pathfinder (which is just a more optimised 3.5) be plausible? You would not be learning a new system so much as incorporating some heavily play-tested house rules which speed up combat and give you more options.

If nothing else, Pathfinder has a load of mundane (alchemical, but without magic, you'd hope the DM opens alchemy to non-magical classes) healing options (all OGC) which can help negate some of the issues with zero-magic worlds. Bodybalm (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/herbs-oils-other-substances#TOC-Bodybalm) to improve your heal checks, Bloodblock (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/herbs-oils-other-substances#TOC-Bloodblock) to stop bleeding, Antitoxin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/herbs-oils-other-substances#TOC-Antitoxin)/Antiplague (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/herbs-oils-other-substances#TOC-Antiplague) for helping players recover from disease and poison, Healy Myrrh (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/herbs-oils-other-substances#TOC-Healy-Myrrh) to speed up the natural healing process, even Smelling Salts (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/herbs-oils-other-substances#TOC-Smelling-Salts) to wake up unconscious characters...

To be honest, a zero-magic game of D&D needs to take its cues from Shadowrun, where it's assumed that a party tackles a single task and then takes a couple of weeks to heal up and recover. Without magical healing, you need to look at long time-scales, short bursts of dangerous activities and tactics which minimise risk because one good sword-slash at first level could put your fighter on their back for days.
Without access to magical healing, I'd assume that you'd be ambushing (so lots of points in stealth) and working with crowd-control tools like tanglefoot bags, maybe smokesticks and thunderstones too.

[Zombulian]

Charlatan all day every day. Dragon Magazine 335. It's a PrC devoted entirely to bluff checks to pretend you're magical. Enter with Factotum and exit through Exemplar or something. It's a good time.

[Psyren]

I'd probably go Trapper Ranger with only Ex traps and Boon Companion. I'd focus on archery with something tanky like a bear, and rely on alchemy to keep us healthy.

Failing that, Invulnerable Rager Barbarian.

[heavyfuel]

If they're dead-set on D&D, might a nudge toward Pathfinder (which is just a more optimised 3.5) be plausible? You would not be learning a new system so much as incorporating some heavily play-tested house rules which speed up combat and give you more options.

If nothing else, Pathfinder has a load of mundane (alchemical, but without magic, you'd hope the DM opens alchemy to non-magical classes) healing options (all OGC) which can help negate some of the issues with zero-magic worlds. Bodybalm (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/herbs-oils-other-substances#TOC-Bodybalm) to improve your heal checks, Bloodblock (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/herbs-oils-other-substances#TOC-Bloodblock) to stop bleeding, Antitoxin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/herbs-oils-other-substances#TOC-Antitoxin)/Antiplague (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/herbs-oils-other-substances#TOC-Antiplague) for helping players recover from disease and poison, Healy Myrrh (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/herbs-oils-other-substances#TOC-Healy-Myrrh) to speed up the natural healing process, even Smelling Salts (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/herbs-oils-other-substances#TOC-Smelling-Salts) to wake up unconscious characters...

To be honest, a zero-magic game of D&D needs to take its cues from Shadowrun, where it's assumed that a party tackles a single task and then takes a couple of weeks to heal up and recover. Without magical healing, you need to look at long time-scales, short bursts of dangerous activities and tactics which minimise risk because one good sword-slash at first level could put your fighter on their back for days.
Without access to magical healing, I'd assume that you'd be ambushing (so lots of points in stealth) and working with crowd-control tools like tanglefoot bags, maybe smokesticks and thunderstones too.

We were totally considering PF, mostly because of the ammount of feats. I personally never played it and I think only one guy in the table has ever done so. But with this info you gave it's definitely something to keep in mind. Thanks!


Charlatan all day every day. Dragon Magazine 335. It's a PrC devoted entirely to bluff checks to pretend you're magical. Enter with Factotum and exit through Exemplar or something. It's a good time.

Hmmm, the class seems very underpowered for regular D&D, but for a no magic campaign it sounds ok. I'll have to talk to the DM to see if he'll allow it in the first place, but it's great to have new options. Thanks!


I'd probably go Trapper Ranger with only Ex traps and Boon Companion. I'd focus on archery with something tanky like a bear, and rely on alchemy to keep us healthy.

Failing that, Invulnerable Rager Barbarian.

Had never heard of either classes, but like I said, never player PF. Both seem decent, though DR 10 at level 20 is pretty underwhelming, even if it larger than most types of DR. If get around to playing PF instead of 3.5 I'm sure one of the players will want this barbarian haha

[Yogibear41]

Actually, spellcasting is a requirement for creating alchemical items, so those are out too.

Its in the PHB but it makes no sense, have to cast spells to make items that are not magical what so ever.

Also it depends on what you mean by no magic, but that has been said before. Going to assume the world is in a permanent anti-magic zone as my basis. Anything with wings, high physical score modifiers, DR or fast healing would be great. Could be something as simple as a Dwarf Barbarian Bear totem variant for bonus toughness feat and a 20 con at level 1, then just start stacking the roll with it feat dr 6/- possible at level 1 with flaws, maybe toss in some Survivor Prestige class levels as well. Become unkillable as nothing in a world without magic, except alchemists fire can hurt you, 2 levels of fighter for heat endurance and imp heat endurance for fire resist 5 and bam. 5 level of survivor, 2 levels of fighter and whatever else you want, can have DR 24/- and 5 fire resist at level 20 all as EX abilities, DR 27/- with heavy adamantine armor. :smallsmile:


Toss in warforged if they exist, lose a little bit of DR but gain immunity to just about everything else. Not to mention you can fix yourself with craft checks instead of sitting around for weeks trying to heal.


There is a class called the Master in The War of the Lance dragonlance book that can make improved masterwork weapons, non-magical but still give increasing bonuses to hit with them up to +5. No bonus on damage though. Might be of interest to you.

Also the Leadership feat, Nuff Said.

Feral Template, Water Orcs, Half Minotaurs, Bakemono,Non-Psionic Half Giants/Goliaths, Wild Template and/or Arctic Template(+0 la) Incarnate Construct Maugs, Anything that gives you something absurd for its LA, especially if LA is able to be bout off.

What is the setting actually going to be like? Medieval/Feudal type kingdoms or something else?

Also there are alot of off the wall races with large amounts of racial hd/LA that would normally be unusable but if everything is going to be physical what are a few racial hit die compared to just levels of fighter or something? How absurd can you get with races as long as they are not magical?

[Twilightwyrm]

While in a strict combat sense Z-Fighter with Imperious Command and Paladin of Tyranny might work, unless your DM is keeping many of the same monsters from the MM, this wouldn't actually net you much of an advantage. First, barring spells, skills offer you the next most sheer utility. Z-Fighter still suffers from the Fighter's lack of skills (even if you are making impressive use of intimidate), and Paladin of Tyranny...well with the lack of spells and magical effects, you just aren't going to need as high saves as before. Think about it, what exactly do you get out of a high Will or reflex save in a mundane environment? Dodging the occasional dead fall or mundane trap? And for Will...well what? Hell, even intimidate is a level check rather than a will save.
For my part, I'd be more inclines to go with Swift Hunter Spell-less Ranger. Good skills, Extra Speed, Fort and Ref saves (which is what you'll need), decent HD, full BAB, bonus feats, the Heal skill, and (because the Animal Companion from the Druid no longer exists) a free extra character, and several decent class abilities. This gets turned up to 11 if you can somehow convince your DM to let Wildshape Ranger also work, but that's not likely. I'd give it the edge over the Factorum only because of the Extra Skirmish damage, the Animal Companion, and Full BAB (which opens up combat maneuvering). The Factorum is more SAD to be sure, and coupled with Knowledge Devotion actually makes a decent Bard-replacement, but the Ranger isn't all that MAD anymore (since you don't need Wis now, and you only need a decent Str OR Dex), and its advantages are difficult for the Factorum to replace.

[Rubik]

The FactorumNever seen that one in any of the books I've got. Which source is that from?

[Urpriest]

Now here's a crazy idea, the reason people give crap about a Monk getting VoP is that there magical items other than armor and weapons to be bought. But in a world where there is no magic, most WBL will be geared towards hirelings, ships, castles and mundane things like that. So, is Monk with VoP still insanely bad or did he just get half decend?

Depends, but probably not. In all likelihood WBL isn't going to be the same, since it's currently calibrated by magic item scaling. And on the other hand, VoP bonuses probably won't stack with the bonuses that your DM gives you to correct for the lack of magic items (for example, attack bonus mostly scales with level while AC mostly scales with magic, so any DM considering a no-magic campaign first comes up with a system to correct for that).

In general, once you've got a system of houserules in place to handle the changes, you can figure out what would be fun to play in that system. Note that learning the system is probably going to be about as tough as learning most modern low-magic RPGs, but if you really like D&D for some reason then you may as well stick with it.

[heavyfuel]

Its in the PHB but it makes no sense, have to cast spells to make items that are not magical what so ever.

Also it depends on what you mean by no magic, but that has been said before. Going to assume the world is in a permanent anti-magic zone as my basis. Anything with wings, high physical score modifiers, DR or fast healing would be great. Could be something as simple as a Dwarf Barbarian Bear totem variant for bonus toughness feat and a 20 con at level 1, then just start stacking the roll with it feat dr 6/- possible at level 1 with flaws, maybe toss in some Survivor Prestige class levels as well. Become unkillable as nothing in a world without magic, except alchemists fire can hurt you, 2 levels of fighter for heat endurance and imp heat endurance for fire resist 5 and bam. 5 level of survivor, 2 levels of fighter and whatever else you want, can have DR 24/- and 5 fire resist at level 20 all as EX abilities, DR 27/- with heavy adamantine armor. :smallsmile:


Toss in warforged if they exist, lose a little bit of DR but gain immunity to just about everything else. Not to mention you can fix yourself with craft checks instead of sitting around for weeks trying to heal.


There is a class called the Master in The War of the Lance dragonlance book that can make improved masterwork weapons, non-magical but still give increasing bonuses to hit with them up to +5. No bonus on damage though. Might be of interest to you.

Also the Leadership feat, Nuff Said.

Feral Template, Water Orcs, Half Minotaurs, Bakemono,Non-Psionic Half Giants/Goliaths, Wild Template and/or Arctic Template(+0 la) Incarnate Construct Maugs, Anything that gives you something absurd for its LA, especially if LA is able to be bout off.

What is the setting actually going to be like? Medieval/Feudal type kingdoms or something else?

Also there are alot of off the wall races with large amounts of racial hd/LA that would normally be unusable but if everything is going to be physical what are a few racial hit die compared to just levels of fighter or something? How absurd can you get with races as long as they are not magical?

Wierd, I always though DR didn't stack. I mean, clearly the feat on does, but I always though you just used whichever DR was higher. So if I took the feat 3 times (+6 DR) was a barbarian lv 19 (5 DR) and used adamantine breastplate (2 DR) I would only have 11 DR, not 13. Is that correct?

Leadership will probably be banned considering we're in a group with 6 people. If leadership is allowed that will be a total of 10 "players" in a D&D game. No thank you.

I don't think there'll be warforged either. I'm not really familiar with them, but aren't they kinda like golems? Inanimate constructs brought to life by magic and all? For races in general, the DM doesn't really like absurd races as a whole. A player I have is currently playing a minotaur and this player (future DM) has mentioned his dislike for non-standard races.

Templates are definitely something to take a look at. I'm pretty sure it's LA Buyoff available, but I'll have to check with the DM.

The setting will be a maritime campaign. I don't know exactly how much time will be spent on sea and how much on land, so that's all the info I can right now.


While in a strict combat sense Z-Fighter with Imperious Command and Paladin of Tyranny might work, unless your DM is keeping many of the same monsters from the MM, this wouldn't actually net you much of an advantage. First, barring spells, skills offer you the next most sheer utility. Z-Fighter still suffers from the Fighter's lack of skills (even if you are making impressive use of intimidate), and Paladin of Tyranny...well with the lack of spells and magical effects, you just aren't going to need as high saves as before. Think about it, what exactly do you get out of a high Will or reflex save in a mundane environment? Dodging the occasional dead fall or mundane trap? And for Will...well what? Hell, even intimidate is a level check rather than a will save.
For my part, I'd be more inclines to go with Swift Hunter Spell-less Ranger. Good skills, Extra Speed, Fort and Ref saves (which is what you'll need), decent HD, full BAB, bonus feats, the Heal skill, and (because the Animal Companion from the Druid no longer exists) a free extra character, and several decent class abilities. This gets turned up to 11 if you can somehow convince your DM to let Wildshape Ranger also work, but that's not likely. I'd give it the edge over the Factorum only because of the Extra Skirmish damage, the Animal Companion, and Full BAB (which opens up combat maneuvering). The Factorum is more SAD to be sure, and coupled with Knowledge Devotion actually makes a decent Bard-replacement, but the Ranger isn't all that MAD anymore (since you don't need Wis now, and you only need a decent Str OR Dex), and its advantages are difficult for the Factorum to replace.


Yeah, low skills are going to be a bummer, but we already have a player that likes to play skill monkey types, so just having some roleplaying options with intimidate seems fine for me, though I'm pretty sure this player will play the nerfed factotum so many people mentioned.

As for the Will saves, I asked this question when someone suggested the Examplar. Is there ANYTHING that can be done with a high will save? Like Power Attack, only instead of trading Hit fo Damage, you trade Will for something.

Yeah, Rangers and Factotums seem to be a favorite around here. I'm honestly afraid that he'll just end up screwing up arrows with strong winds and rain. That's one of the reasons I though melee was a good way to go.


Depends, but probably not. In all likelihood WBL isn't going to be the same, since it's currently calibrated by magic item scaling. And on the other hand, VoP bonuses probably won't stack with the bonuses that your DM gives you to correct for the lack of magic items (for example, attack bonus mostly scales with level while AC mostly scales with magic, so any DM considering a no-magic campaign first comes up with a system to correct for that).

In general, once you've got a system of houserules in place to handle the changes, you can figure out what would be fun to play in that system. Note that learning the system is probably going to be about as tough as learning most modern low-magic RPGs, but if you really like D&D for some reason then you may as well stick with it.


Unfortunately all of this is up to the DM. I haven't had the chance to talk to him yet, but someone mentioned a Conan d20 that has no magic, so maybe we'll use that. It may just give us what we need in terms of how to handle WBL and AC and whatnot.

[Anthrowhale]

A single class is typically far worse than dipping amongst may classes w.r.t. saves. In a magicless world there are probably fewer saves, but they are also probably more important to make.

The 'Gheden' template is powerful in combination with troll-blooded, because it provides immunity to most damage as well as stun and energy drain. This may not be available because it's dragon magazine or simply because the combo is overpowered.

(ex) fire immunity is provided by the blazing berserker feat.

(ex) acid immunity is provided by one of the major bloodlines (Djinn?)

Master Thrower 5 grants (ex) ranged touch attacks which are worth at least +20 to hit at high levels.

Bloodstorm Blade grants melee abilities to ranged attacks.

Snow Tiger Berserker grants (ex) Pounce enabling charge-attack tactics.

Cloistered Cleric 1 makes sense even without spells, as it grants 3 domain abilities which (I believe?) are nonmagical by default. I particularly like the pride domain (reroll natural 1's), the dream domain (immune to fear), and the time domain (improved init). Also, knowledge devotion is handy.

Iajutsu Master 5 is an effective alternate approach to achieve high damage and high initiative. You'll want all the flat-footed skill tricks.

Marshal, Crusader, and Akodo Champion all grant cumulative (ex) bonuses to saves based on charisma.

AC is hard to optimize. Armor+dex puts you at 20ish which is an almost-always-hit for a fighter 20. Some grafts, and various X-to-AC boosters can push that up to 30. Adding in (Improved) Combat Expertise can make the difference between 50% chance the badguys hit you and 5% chance.

Serren Wood is essential if you run into incorporeal foes. It's not clear that you can find it, as it grows on a different plane. Luckily, most incorporeal foes can't do anything without magic...

As mentioned, grafts are very powerful. However, many have spell prerequisites, and many of the rest have interesting racial prereqs which could imply some interesting negotiations for access.

[Yogibear41]

The Dr from the feat and from the Survivor Prestige Class explicitly stack with everything, the Barbarians DR and DR from Adamantine Armor does not stack. So in your example you would have a DR of 11, 6 from feats 5 from barbarian. With the 2 from armor being overwritten by the 5 from the barbarian.


With that setting I would recommend Water Orc even more, having a swim speed when water is going to be around alot is good.


Feral Water Orc Barbarian 20 would probably work just fine, small amount of fast healing, along with DR stacking should work just fine when the worst thing you have to worry about is something big trying to hit you with something or bite you.


Do guns/gunpowder exist?

Also bummer about the guy not liking non-standard races. I get to play a humanoid every day, why would I want to play one in a fantasy game? :smallsmile:

[heavyfuel]

A single class is typically far worse than dipping amongst may classes w.r.t. saves. In a magicless world there are probably fewer saves, but they are also probably more important to make.

The 'Gheden' template is powerful in combination with troll-blooded, because it provides immunity to most damage as well as stun and energy drain. This may not be available because it's dragon magazine or simply because the combo is overpowered.

(ex) fire immunity is provided by the blazing berserker feat.

(ex) acid immunity is provided by one of the major bloodlines (Djinn?)

Master Thrower 5 grants (ex) ranged touch attacks which are worth at least +20 to hit at high levels.

Bloodstorm Blade grants melee abilities to ranged attacks.

Snow Tiger Berserker grants (ex) Pounce enabling charge-attack tactics.

Cloistered Cleric 1 makes sense even without spells, as it grants 3 domain abilities which (I believe?) are nonmagical by default. I particularly like the pride domain (reroll natural 1's), the dream domain (immune to fear), and the time domain (improved init). Also, knowledge devotion is handy.

Iajutsu Master 5 is an effective alternate approach to achieve high damage and high initiative. You'll want all the flat-footed skill tricks.

Marshal, Crusader, and Akodo Champion all grant cumulative (ex) bonuses to saves based on charisma.

AC is hard to optimize. Armor+dex puts you at 20ish which is an almost-always-hit for a fighter 20. Some grafts, and various X-to-AC boosters can push that up to 30. Adding in (Improved) Combat Expertise can make the difference between 50% chance the badguys hit you and 5% chance.

Serren Wood is essential if you run into incorporeal foes. It's not clear that you can find it, as it grows on a different plane. Luckily, most incorporeal foes can't do anything without magic...

As mentioned, grafts are very powerful. However, many have spell prerequisites, and many of the rest have interesting racial prereqs which could imply some interesting negotiations for access.


Yeah, many people suggested troll-blooded, unfortunately its from Dragon, which is famous for rather unbalanced feats/classes. I haven't coun't this one out, but more likely than not it's gonna be a no.

Master thrower was too suggested before, and it honestly sounds like the class with the most damage potential. Even without Str damage, you can still use power attack to the max (if you have 2 lvs in bloodstorm blade) and without magic armor to block crits, you can easily reach ridiculously high damage rolls.

Isn't it the Lion Barbarian that grants Pounce? Anyway, like I said it's a maritime campaign, so I don't think charge is gonna help all that much.

Unfortunately spellcasting classes are just as banned as is magic, so no cleric/c cleric. I posted this already but still don't know the answer, but I'm pretty sure domain feats will still be available (don't know about Turning to power them up though)

I don't think we'll be making that many saves, honest. I think Fort will come up often and reflexes every now and again. But I can't for the life in me think of a scenario where Will is gonna come up. Maybe against creature with Frightful Presence, but that's only a -2 in attack and saves. not that big of deal

As for AC, I honestly believe what's been said here before. The best defense will be hiding and keeping your distance.

Dunno about Serren Wood or incorporeal foes. Don't think we'll find any though

Yeah, wish I could have grafts, but no magic pretty much means no grafts as well


The Dr from the feat and from the Survivor Prestige Class explicitly stack with everything, the Barbarians DR and DR from Adamantine Armor does not stack. So in your example you would have a DR of 11, 6 from feats 5 from barbarian. With the 2 from armor being overwritten by the 5 from the barbarian.


With that setting I would recommend Water Orc even more, having a swim speed when water is going to be around alot is good.


Feral Water Orc Barbarian 20 would probably work just fine, small amount of fast healing, along with DR stacking should work just fine when the worst thing you have to worry about is something big trying to hit you with something or bite you.


Do guns/gunpowder exist?

Also bummer about the guy not liking non-standard races. I get to play a humanoid every day, why would I want to play one in a fantasy game? :smallsmile:

Barbarian in general seems to work fine. In regular D&D they're already a tough class that can deal lots of damage, that toughness will be much more valuable now.

As for the races, he really doesn't mind classes like orcs and dwarves. But races like Goliaths or Warforged are frowned upon (races outside PHB). Not really sure if he'll ban them, but he'll probably advise against haha

Haven't asked if guns exist, but it's probably a no.

[Anlashok]

unfortunately its from Dragon, which is famous for rather unbalanced feats/classes.
As opposed to Core which is... wait.

[heavyfuel]

As opposed to Core which is... wait.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Core D&D is clearly balanced, I mean, everyone says Wizards are powerful, but that only because your reflex save is too low to dodge their fireballs *wink wink nudge nudge*

[Yogibear41]

I have no idea what you're talking about. Core D&D is clearly balanced, I mean, everyone says Wizards are powerful, but that only because your reflex save is too low to dodge their fireballs *wink wink nudge nudge*

Thats why you just have to fireball them first! muahaha

[Alex12]

Never seen that one in any of the books I've got. Which source is that from?
Factotum was the intended class.
However,

In case anyone's wondering, the word "factotum" means "do everything". The root "totum" leads to the English word "total". A "factorum", by contrast, would presumably "do a bagel".


Open Lox is a class skill.