Killing a Succubus/Babau - nigh impossible?

[Jon_Dahl]

Over the past 20 sessions or so, my players have repeatedly encountered a succubus and a babau. It's always same pair and, barring one exception, it has been the same result: they teleport away. The exception came when the succubus was pregnant and I made a dubious call by banning succubus's teleporting while pregnant (the unborn baby is considered separate and independent). In this case the succubus just flew away because she was given the time and space to do so.

I was talking with one of the players a few days ago and he said that he had completely conceded to the demons. They will try to kill them but they expect them to escape every time. Such hopelessness!

How could I get the two demons killed by my players? The succubus is far more important than the babau.

The PCs are a gnome cleric 3/psychic warrior 2/pyrokineticist 3, lizardman paladin of freedom 4 and human monk 1/wilderness rogue 6. All are just about pure melee, except the pyro-gnome has some ranged capabilities.

Some options:
1. I could arrange the PCs to have some magical items that could be used slay the demons, but what items would those be? And why would anyone give them such items and not use them themselves?
2. They could hire a demon hunter. This would be a DMPC solution, and everyone hates DMPCs. NPCs fighting NPCs riiiiiight
3. Demons could be their buddies and not enemies? I don't know... If you can't beat them, join them?

[animewatcha]

wand of dimensional anchor?

[Tommy2255]

How have they gone that long without trying anything to prevent teleportation? Hell, you nerfed her teleportation one time, and they couldn't even capitalize on it. That should be lethal. Or you could be merciful and throw a wand of Dimension Anchor at them. I hope it hits one of them in the eye. Or anything antimagic. Or trick her into facing them in a castle that's warded against teleportation. Or use her goals against her in such a way that retreat is not a tactically sound option for her.

[Sir Chuckles]

Also remember that spell-like abilities provoke attacks of opportunity.
Which, in turn, means that they can disrupt it.

There's a variety of solutions, they just haven't tried them.
If you go the NPC route, rather than hiring a demon hunter, have the hunter be busy or out of town. They can ask for simple advice or rummage through his notes.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Dimensional Anchor, Antimagic Ray (SpC), Weapons/arrows of Binding (MIC), anything that stuns or dazes, ready an action to interrupt. The possibilities are there.
If your players can't be bothered to get them after it becomes apparent that the demons are recurring villains that's their own fault (unless they're new of course, in which case you should have dropped hints and/or items of the above options to steer them in the right direction).

Have they even tried to find a way to deal with the issue? Some players just want to smash things and not think about tactics to much.

[Telok]

Weighted nets: Demons have a 50 pound weight limit on teleports and nets are touch attacks.

Damage: The succubus has 33 hit points, I've seen 6th level wizards with more hit points than that. Smite Evil, Sneak Attack, Surprise Round. DR 10/cold iron is only a problem if everyone is a volley attack character.

Gold: A single use universal item of Divert Teleport. +1 Demon Bane arrows.

Plot: Find something that the demons have to stick around for, a hostage or special thingy they have to secure or defend. Find some place with Forbiddance or Hallow (linked Dimensional Anchor) and lure them there.

Minions: Cold Iron arrows are reasonably priced at this level, hire a squad of archers and set up an ambush or trap for the demons.

[Cloud]

As has been said, dimensional anchor is your friend. Anticipate teleport is a lower level and will only help if they use the teleporting offensively, but it's there as an option.

Also the Succubus has only 33 health...a dead succubus can't teleport, catch her by surprise and red mist her. Also spell-like abilities still provoke attacks of opportunity, and can still be disrupted. A Babau has only +5 concentration, and a Succubus +10, plenty easy to disrupt, DC 17 + damage dealt would be hard for them, and even the DC 22 check to cast defensively is a pain for them.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Actually, even if they catch and destroy her form, all that will do will be to temporarily banish her back to the Abyss.



Why do they need to kill her anyway? If she retreats every time it's not as if she's preventing them from their goals - and since they are the winners in every encounter they should be getting XP. Eventually, she should become irrelevant as they progress in power and she doesn't. That is also beating her in a nonlethal way.

[Cloud]

As far as I understand isn't that 'temporary' banishment 99 years of reforming, and almost always into a lower form of demon? That might as well be kill for all intents and purposes for the party.

Edit: Huh, getting out the fiendish codex, no mention of time, no idea where I got them from, but in any case being reformed as a dretch might as well end the threat of that demon.

[Jon_Dahl]

Have they even tried to find a way to deal with the issue? Some players just want to smash things and not think about tactics to much

They haven't tried anything. Once they asked an NPC what to do, but he didn't know.



Why do they need to kill her anyway? If she retreats every time it's not as if she's preventing them from their goals - and since they are the winners in every encounter they should be getting XP. Eventually, she should become irrelevant as they progress in power and she doesn't. That is also beating her in a nonlethal way.

The succubus is problematic because she charms people and makes them cultists of a demon lord. The PCs wish to stop this.
The succubus doesn't even engage in combat with PCs. She retreats and continues her business as usual without any significant interference from the PCs. No XP. The problem hasn't been overcome.

[JeminiZero]

1. I could arrange the PCs to have some magical items that could be used slay the demons, but what items would those be? And why would anyone give them such items and not use them themselves?

How about a bag of Sacred Item Sand (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?242732-Defend-this-City!-3-5&p=13206080#post13206080). All they have to do is empty the bag over a demon's head, and it should drop dead. Since its basically made by casting one spell repeatedly (and can be mass produced by a self resetting trap (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?246062-Colonizing-the-Abyss&p=13372931#post13372931)), a high level caster with a large stockpile, should be willing to give a bag to them (possibly in exchange for some current/future favor).

[Eldariel]

Also remember that spell-like abilities provoke attacks of opportunity.
Which, in turn, means that they can disrupt it.

I think the issue is getting to melee with a flying, teleporting demon in the first place, and not letting her move back and then teleport or whatever. The party doesn't look too mobile.

[Gwendol]

I have a succubus tormenting my party as well. Last time she nearly got killed by focused fire, saved only by DR. Easiest has to be to simply kill her: one well-timed orb or a charge is enough. Also, they are subject to precision damage so...

[John Longarrow]

Easiest way to gank a succubi is to use divination to find out where she will be, set up an ambush (relatively low spot), and hit hard and fast.
In a more normal party, I'd suggest using the tank to grapple. With the spread out abilities your party will have that probably won't work well.

[Mnemnosyne]

Honestly, if they have not tried anything on their own, I don't understand why you feel compelled to provide them with a solution they're not actually seeking. If they are not actually trying to solve their problem, handing them a solution without them expending any effort isn't particularly different than having an NPC solve the problem. And especially considering how easy this problem is to solve simply by casting a couple spells such as dimensional anchor or even more simply, killing the target before she can teleport away, it honestly doesn't feel like they deserve to have this victory just handed to them.

If it is growing boring for you and the players to keep fighting the fiends and they teleport away over and over without the players ever seeking means to stop them, I would recommend just having them not find these fiends anymore. Obviously the fiends aren't trying to find them, and they're avoiding combat, so just have them leave. It doesn't sound like there's a compelling reason for the fiends to stay in the PCs neighborhood anyway. They go to another city hundreds of miles away and continue what they're doing. Later in the campaign, whatever they were doing has results that require the PCs to quest to fight it. Hopefully they will have learned to actually take action to solve their problems by that point.

[VoxRationis]

As others have said:
1) Find a way of shutting down Teleport.
2) Kill them before they can Teleport, using any number of high-damage attacks or spells.
3) Find a way of stunning them or denying them actions.
These should be obvious to your players. Yes, these plans aren't foolproof, but if the villains are truly recurring, they'll be seeing the demons again, and it only takes one success to finish them.

[John Longarrow]

Very EVIL option for taking out the succubi...
1) Find out who she is going after next (Divination spells).
2) Have said person hold onto a magic item that the PCs say can't fall into said demon's claws. Story would be "Helm of kingly influence"
3) Make sure said person falls for Demon's charm.
4) Wait for succubi to put on helm of opposite alignment.....

[VoxRationis]

Very EVIL option for taking out the succubi...
1) Find out who she is going after next (Divination spells).
2) Have said person hold onto a magic item that the PCs say can't fall into said demon's claws. Story would be "Helm of kingly influence"
3) Make sure said person falls for Demon's charm.
4) Wait for succubi to put on helm of opposite alignment.....

How is that evil? It's devious, but it's bloodless; literally nobody gets hurt.

[Magesmiley]

Over the past 20 sessions or so, my players have repeatedly encountered a succubus and a babau. It's always same pair and, barring one exception, it has been the same result: they teleport away. The exception came when the succubus was pregnant and I made a dubious call by banning succubus's teleporting while pregnant (the unborn baby is considered separate and independent). In this case the succubus just flew away because she was given the time and space to do so.

I was talking with one of the players a few days ago and he said that he had completely conceded to the demons. They will try to kill them but they expect them to escape every time. Such hopelessness!

How could I get the two demons killed by my players? The succubus is far more important than the babau.

The PCs are a gnome cleric 3/psychic warrior 2/pyrokineticist 3, lizardman paladin of freedom 4 and human monk 1/wilderness rogue 6. All are just about pure melee, except the pyro-gnome has some ranged capabilities.

Some options:
1. I could arrange the PCs to have some magical items that could be used slay the demons, but what items would those be? And why would anyone give them such items and not use them themselves?
2. They could hire a demon hunter. This would be a DMPC solution, and everyone hates DMPCs. NPCs fighting NPCs riiiiiight
3. Demons could be their buddies and not enemies? I don't know... If you can't beat them, join them?

Judging by how they weren't able to deal with the succubus flying away, IMO this isn't a case of the demons are the problem. The problem is that the PCs are too specialized/focused on one style of fighting - melee. And don't seem to be able to handle other situations. From your description, a flying monster that never lands could give the party a similar level of grief (a manticore might be a good choice here). Maybe mixing things up and using other creatures that fight smartly and never land might give the PCs a bit to think on. Monsters that the PCs have to fight from a range due to obstructions between might be another good scenario.

[Yawgmoth]

No XP. The problem hasn't been overcome. Not cool. If you're having them fight her, forcing retreat is a win in battle and should get them XP. That's probably why they're feeling hopeless; you're giving them the same fight over and over with no real resolution and no reward. Maybe if they were getting anything from the encounters they might not feel so frustrated.

[qwertyu63]

How is that evil? It's devious, but it's bloodless; literally nobody gets hurt.

It is permanently changing someone's alignment without their permission; how could you get more evil? And don't give me any crap about "but it changed her alignment to good, so it's a good act"; I'd knock the entire party down an alignment notch for even trying a plan like that.

[Loreweaver15]

How is that evil? It's devious, but it's bloodless; literally nobody gets hurt.

"Helm of Opposite Alignment".

[John Longarrow]

How is that evil? It's devious, but it's bloodless; literally nobody gets hurt.

VoxRationis,

Depends on how you run alignment in your game. If you want to use real world ethics, most people will consider brainwashing very evil. If your games ethos says changing someones alignment is a good/evil act based on what it is changed to, this would be considered Good. If you use the same structure I do (what diety lays claim to your soul when you die), this COULD be a Good act, but only if your diety would approve.

NOTE: The one time I saw this done in game, it was mostly for vengance purposes... Not really a "Good" act, but the main proponents were on the Neutral side...

[Eldariel]

It is permanently changing someone's alignment without their permission; how could you get more evil? And don't give me any crap about "but it changed her alignment to good, so it's a good act"; I'd knock the entire party down an alignment notch for even trying a plan like that.

By that logic, opposing evil is evil. So heavens would literally stand there while demons walk around their planes unbidden; after all, harming them would be evil. You should certainly be able to see why it doesn't work in a world where "good" and "evil" are actual powers that pretty much define reality. Demons (and devils and yugoloths and company) are embodiments of evil; changing their alignment is still less evil than destroying them. By that logic, good people shouldn't try to kill demons.

[Loreweaver15]

By that logic, opposing evil is evil. So heavens would literally stand there while demons walk around their planes unbidden; after all, harming them would be evil. You should certainly be able to see why it doesn't work in a world where "good" and "evil" are actual powers that pretty much define reality. Demons (and devils and yugoloths and company) are embodiments of evil; changing their alignment is still less evil than destroying them. By that logic, good people shouldn't try to kill demons.

There's a big difference between fighting back against someone that's trying to hurt people and reaching into that someone's mind and erasing their free will--even more so in a world where the existence of the soul is not speculation at all.

[Frosty]

Your party should try to land a Grapple before she teleports away. Force those concentration checks.

[Eldariel]

There's a big difference between fighting back against someone that's trying to hurt people and reaching into that someone's mind and erasing their free will--even more so in a world where the existence of the soul is not speculation at all.

There's a big difference between a living being and a manifestation of evil too.

[squiggit]

It's an ethically dubious act (but so is killing...), but not necessarily a non-Good one.

Either way not really relevant. I agree that if the players aren't searching for a solution then forcing one on them isn't really any verse than having your DMPC solve it. If you're gonna do anything drop them little clues about blocking teleportation as such.

Also agree that if they're getting in a fight an dodging the enemy to flee they should get their XP and that might be half the reason they're bitter about it.

[Esgath]

There's a big difference between fighting back against someone that's trying to hurt people and reaching into that someone's mind and erasing their free will--even more so in a world where the existence of the soul is not speculation at all.

Being evil wasn't the choice of the succubi in the first place. Demons are defined as being evil, hence the [evil] subtype. Furthermore, you are not erasing the free will of someone like mind-control would, you change their alignment. Evil characters can still do good deeds, and good characters can still do evil deeds. To deny that would be erasing free will, but the helm doesn't do that.
And even denying someone their free will isn't evil. It's neutral at worst. Some people get their free will constrained by being behind bars, nothing wrong with that. If you rid the world of a being made of pure evil, without collateral damage, you would have to bend the alignment system backwards to make this an evil act.

BTT: Are your players familiar with spells or equipment in this level range? Maybe encourage them to search some books for gear or go on the forums to get an overview.

[NoACWarrior]

If your PCs have the cash they could spring for the orb spells in wondrous magical items.

Its really expensive but you could provide a lvl 7 orb of force with 2 charges (costing 504 per charge) usable with a command word.
If the party buys 2 of the command word versions then they should have enough damage to disrupt the succubus and the babau simultaneously.
Meanwhile if the rouge has UMD you could provide a lvl 7 orb of force with 2 charges (costing 420 per charge) usable as a wand spell trigger.

Alternatively you could have hiding spelltheifs as part of a hired guild help who sneak attack the two demons and steal the teleport skills.
Heck with 4-5 of them you could potentially shutdown all the spell-like abilities for a short time.

The last method you could use is counterspells - so long as you get the right spell school with a spell casting item you can counter spell the opposing spell like ability. The issue is you will have to do it EVERY round. This is not a good method unless you get a bunch of underlings to cast it for them party.

[NichG]

Being evil wasn't the choice of the succubi in the first place. Demons are defined as being evil, hence the [evil] subtype. Furthermore, you are not erasing the free will of someone like mind-control would, you change their alignment. Evil characters can still do good deeds, and good characters can still do evil deeds. To deny that would be erasing free will, but the helm doesn't do that.
And even denying someone their free will isn't evil. It's neutral at worst. Some people get their free will constrained by being behind bars, nothing wrong with that. If you rid the world of a being made of pure evil, without collateral damage, you would have to bend the alignment system backwards to make this an evil act.


Under this argument, its not evil, its simply ineffective. The succubus ignores the fact that her alignment is still Good and continues to do exactly what she did before, because the helm has not in fact removed her free will. Anyhow, there was an entire thread on the morality of this, and it isn't something with a simple answer since it depends on what the GM is actually using alignment 'for' in their campaign.

[Eldest]

There's a big difference between a living being and a manifestation of evil too.

She is a living being and can, independently, decide to be Good, Lawful, or whatever. They have free will. It might be Good but it certainly isn't good.

[Loreweaver15]

Being evil wasn't the choice of the succubi in the first place. Demons are defined as being evil, hence the [evil] subtype. Furthermore, you are not erasing the free will of someone like mind-control would, you change their alignment. Evil characters can still do good deeds, and good characters can still do evil deeds. To deny that would be erasing free will, but the helm doesn't do that.
And even denying someone their free will isn't evil. It's neutral at worst. Some people get their free will constrained by being behind bars, nothing wrong with that. If you rid the world of a being made of pure evil, without collateral damage, you would have to bend the alignment system backwards to make this an evil act.

BTT: Are your players familiar with spells or equipment in this level range? Maybe encourage them to search some books for gear or go on the forums to get an overview.

Oh, for--this lame argument again. Look, your alignment is either a result of your choices and preferences, or the cause of them. Either way, changing someone's alignment forcibly changes the way they think; if you think your character can put on a helm of opposite alignment and then just immediately go back to whatever they were doing before because CHOICES, then either you're missing the point of the item or the item doesn't actually do anything.

Likewise, putting someone in prison does not deny them free will. They can still make choices; they can still do whatever they want, subject to opposing forces. Reaching into their soul and changing their alignment means they are no longer capable of making their own choices, and are now just the result of a magical semi-lobotomization. Putting the Helm on somebody means that you have dictated how you want their mind to be shaped, not them, and that is heinous and horrifying.

Here's a question--if being made of Evil means that said creatures are always irrevocably evil forever and cannot change on their own without magical interference, what do you make of the canonical Succubus Paladin, Eludecia, who changed through her own hard work and struggles for a mortal she fell in love with? Denying aligned outsiders free will conceptually means not only are you hamstringing your own storytelling capability, but the lowliest of imps is inherently more evil than the Lord of Hell, because the Lord of Hell can make his/her own choices while the imp will do evil always all the time--unless you favor the explanation that things simply acting from instinct without a choice (i.e. the hungry wolf) are True Neutral/unaligned, in which case, those awful demons and devils are all True Neutral because they're just animals.

If it has a mind, it has a choice. What makes a demon evil isn't that it tortures the hellbound, for example, it's that it enjoys it and favors doing so over other options.

[squiggit]

Likewise, putting someone in prison does not deny them free will.
Other than of course denying them the ability to meaningfully choose anything for themselves. At least the helm still leaves the wearer in charge of their own faculties afterwards.


Here's a question--if being made of Evil means that said creatures are always irrevocably evil forever and cannot change on their own without magical interference, what do you make of the canonical Succubus Paladin, Eludecia, who changed through her own hard work and struggles for a mortal she fell in love with?
A single particular corner case brought about by specific and unusual circumstances? She's proof that "always evil" doesn't actually mean "always evil", but doesn't redefine the nature of the species at all.


Look, your alignment is either a result of your choices and preferences
If that's the case why do we have races that are born evil or born good, and are, as a race, almost unbiquitously good or evil? Yes, there are specific exceptions that exist, but that doesn't change that in D&D land certain species will have inborn affinities for a certain alignment, not on an individual basis but on the whole.


Reaching into their soul and changing their alignment means they are no longer capable of making their own choices, and are now just the result of a magical semi-lobotomization.Partially untrue because the Helm is not a lobotomy and their ability to think and act is not impaired.

More importantly I have to ask, why is altering the perspective of said soul morally abhorrent but snuffing it out entirely is acceptable? The latter utterly denies the creature of any hope or ability to do anything ever again, not sure how that's more palatable than replacing bad with good.

Putting the Helm on somebody means that you have dictated how you want their mind to be shaped That's actually entirely wrong. You have no control how the victim of the helm will act whatsoever

[sleepyphoenixx]

Since when do demons get human rights? It's a war, either for survival or to keep yourself from becoming a slave for life and beyond.
You're telling me neutralising that succubus by any means possible is evil? That's not even exalted anymore, that's just stupid.

D&D is not RL with funny shaped humans. It is a world full of fanatics and things that can't be reasoned with (and are out to kill you or worse).
There is a point where diplomacy and compromise are utterly meaningless and all you can do is kill the other side before they kill you, eat your remains and possibly enslave your soul (or use it as fuel/currency).

If you can neutralize an enemy by killing them that's great. If you can actually turn them to fight against their former allies that's even better. As long as you refrain from torture, unnecessary cruelty and collateral damage you can still be "D&D good" in my book. RL ethics do not apply to the standard high fantasy setting.

[John Longarrow]

================================================== =


PULLS OUT THE BAR OF THREAD STRAIGHTENING.

PLEASE RETURN TO YOUR NORMALLY ASSIGNED THREAD.

GOOD/EVIL RELATED TO THE HELM BELONG IN ANOTHER THREAD.



================================================== =

Alternate question for the OP... Have you talked to your players about their inability to deal with the duo and what they would LIKE to see happen? Some times the players really are not interested in a recurring villan the way you are, so they mentally gloss over it, especially if it just runs away. This could be one of those cases. Players think "Oh, just those two again, don't worry, they'll be gone shortly" and then they mentally check out. This could even be a case where the players think you are useing the two as background dressing.

[Loreweaver15]

A single particular corner case brought about by specific and unusual circumstances? She's proof that "always evil" doesn't actually mean "always evil", but doesn't redefine the nature of the species at all.

If we've established that 'always evil' doesn't mean that they're forced to be evil and do not have a choice...why do you believe that they're forced to be evil and do not have a choice?


If that's the case why do we have races that are born evil or born good, and are, as a race, almost unbiquitously good or evil? Yes, there are specific exceptions that exist, but that doesn't change that in D&D land certain species will have inborn affinities for a certain alignment, not on an individual basis but on the whole.

Generally, that is the result of cultural stuff (goblins, orcs, etc) influencing every new generation, or just bad writing.

Because that's what it is. Atrocious writing.


Partially untrue because the Helm is not a lobotomy and their ability to think and act is not impaired.

More importantly I have to ask, why is altering the perspective of said soul morally abhorrent but snuffing it out entirely is acceptable? The latter utterly denies the creature of any hope or ability to do anything ever again, not sure how that's more palatable than replacing bad with good.

We're talking about a setting with a confirmed afterlife, where souls persisting after death is common knowledge. Reaching into someone's soul and changing it to suit yourself alters them forever, stripping them of independence and agency; killing someone, while still massively impactful, is functionally just a scenery change, and in the end, the reason for killing somebody determines the alignment of the action, not the fact that you killed someone. Murdering Tarquin for his pocket change is an evil act, despite all the good it would accomplish, because the reason for the act was the pennies in his pocket, not the liberation of his oppressed nations.


That's actually entirely wrong. You have no control how the victim of the helm will act whatsoever

You've taken someone and applied a known effect to their mind and soul--you've switched it around 180 degrees. You know that that demon will be forced to have a particular perspective switch, will have all her priorities, choices, and values replaced with a particular set of other priorities, choices, and values, and thus the act of deliberately shoving a Helm onto her head has predictable results.

So, uh, yes, you have some control there, unless you're in the habit of not considering results, ever.

[Deadline]

In this case the succubus just flew away because she was given the time and space to do so.


1. I could arrange the PCs to have some magical items that could be used slay the demons, but what items would those be? And why would anyone give them such items and not use them themselves?

Well, it sounds like just picking up a couple of bows as backup weapons could at least be a start. Seriously, nobody has ranged capability except for the remarkably poorly-built Pyromancer?

If all you want is for these demons to be splattered by your party, perhaps the party tracks them down to their lair which contains an evil magical altar that the demons must defend (i.e., they don't teleport away because they have to stay and guard the altar), AND that altar is inside a room with a low ceiling? If that doesn't work, maybe have the demons start the fight tied to the floor for no particular reason? Sure, it's ridiculously contrived, but your players don't exactly sound like problem solvers, so if you want them to kill the demons, you'll either have to drill it into their heads that they need to stop trying to melee all their problems, or hold their hands and walk them through an encounter where the demons are at a serious disadvantage via DM fiat.

[Seclora]

If you know the name of the sucubus, a scroll of Lesser Planar Binding would be able to almost permanently remove her from play. Set up the Magic Circle against Evil in a secure location, cast LPB, and then command her to do some inane, time consuming task right there in the room, where she couldn't escape. Hell, you mentioned she was pregnant, make the task 'wait here until the child is born'. It's not good, it's certainly not nice, but it deals with the problem. And since she's stuck there, get in your hour a day of redemption discussion until she stops being evil.

Kill the Babau. Firstly, I hate rogues with infinite dispel and teleport. Secondly, align weapon(good) will let you bypass his DR, and with only 66 HP you should be able to deal with him fairly quickly. Dimensional Anchor is, as has been stated, always your friend; I'd couple it with fire.

[Sith_Happens]

There's a big difference between fighting back against someone that's trying to hurt people and reaching into that someone's mind and erasing their free will--even more so in a world where the existence of the soul is not speculation at all.

You're right; that second thing is an extremely Lawful action.

[VoxRationis]

Ignoring the alignment discussion I seem to have inadvertently sparked—and swallowing my own opinions on the matter—if the party is so melee focused, then play to that.

The succubus does a lot of deep-cover, infiltration and subversion missions; you said something to that effect earlier. Now, I don't know too much about how you role-play your NPCs, but it's generally considered a given that succubi take a "hands-on" approach to subverting the morals of mortals. With some applications of polymorph/seeming spells or the Disguise skill and some invisible weapons, one can easily be "led" into melee range of the demon's own free will.

[NoACWarrior]

The succubus does a lot of deep-cover, infiltration and subversion missions; you said something to that effect earlier. Now, I don't know too much about how you role-play your NPCs, but it's generally considered a given that succubi take a "hands-on" approach to subverting the morals of mortals. With some applications of polymorph/seeming spells or the Disguise skill and some invisible weapons, one can easily be "led" into melee range of the demon's own free will.

Going on with Vox's idea, you could send a paladin NPC of 6th level with the Glorious Weapons Divine feat - this would solve the DR issue once you got the demons close.

[Eldariel]

She is a living being and can, independently, decide to be Good, Lawful, or whatever. They have free will. It might be Good but it certainly isn't good.

They're living for very few definitions of "a living being". They're intelligent, sure, but they don't consume anything, they don't breathe, they lack many significant traits that define "living". Hell, whether they even "die" and what exactly constitutes their body is in the air somewhat; the fact that "they" continue to exist after their deaths in many cases muddies the waters a lot. Since "intelligent" isn't even a criterion you can use you describe a living thing (since on most levels it doesn't apply to a great number of living things), that would be difficult to use as a reasonable definition. You can create definitions under which they might fall under the term "living" but you might end up e.g. making Constructs and many types of Undead (which would be really bizarre) count equally living with that.

I'm not sure Chaotic Evil Outsiders can actually independently decide to be Good, Lawful or whatever; only cases I remember of Good demons for instance involve magic altering their behavior. And they most certainly don't have the upbringing that would enable that usually, even if it were possible, so they're "socially conditioned" (provided they react to behavior of others the way we do; since they don't "grow" and lack a span of life in the sense it applies to living things, such is of course a tad hard to assess) to evil and chaos in any case which makes such a phenomenon hard to explore.

[Loreweaver15]

They're living for very few definitions of "a living being". They're intelligent, sure, but they don't consume anything, they don't breathe, they lack many significant traits that define "living". Hell, whether they even "die" and what exactly constitutes their body is in the air somewhat; the fact that "they" continue to exist after their deaths in many cases muddies the waters a lot. Since "intelligent" isn't even a criterion you can use you describe a living thing (since on most levels it doesn't apply to a great number of living things), that would be difficult to use as a reasonable definition. You can create definitions under which they might fall under the term "living" but you might end up e.g. making Constructs and many types of Undead (which would be really bizarre) count equally living with that.

I'm not sure Chaotic Evil Outsiders can actually independently decide to be Good, Lawful or whatever; only cases I remember of Good demons for instance involve magic altering their behavior. And they most certainly don't have the upbringing that would enable that usually, even if it were possible, so they're "socially conditioned" (provided they react to behavior of others the way we do; since they don't "grow" and lack a span of life in the sense it applies to living things, such is of course a tad hard to assess) to evil and chaos in any case which makes such a phenomenon hard to explore.

Again, I'd like to point to Eludecia; completely free-willed succubus changing because she was inspired and fell in love. No magic involved. And, honestly, the only criterion for personhood I care about (and let's be real here, that's the real issue being discussed, not some silly biological 'living being' issue): does it have a thinking mind? TNG's Data does not fulfill most of the criteria for 'living thing', but he does fill the criterion for 'person'. Same goes for demons and devils.

[VoxRationis]

If you know the name of the sucubus, a scroll of Lesser Planar Binding would be able to almost permanently remove her from play. since she's stuck there, get in your hour a day of redemption discussion until she stops being evil.

Kill the Babau.

Why does the succubus get a shot at redemption but not the babau? Just because the former is more human-like and prettier doesn't mean it's any more capable of redemption.

[NoACWarrior]

Why does the succubus get a shot at redemption but not the babau? Just because the former is more human-like and prettier doesn't mean it's any more capable of redemption.

Because having a version of eludecia would be more awesome burdensome than a normal babau. Lets face it, people want the succubus cause shes got infinite charm monster and has a CR of 7. But the babau has infinite acid damage which can destroy a lot of objects, has at will dispell magic, at will darkness, and a ton of skill monkey skills.

I'd pick the Babau to reform any day of the week.

[Eldariel]

Again, I'd like to point to Eludecia; completely free-willed succubus changing because she was inspired and fell in love. No magic involved. And, honestly, the only criterion for personhood I care about (and let's be real here, that's the real issue being discussed, not some silly biological 'living being' issue): does it have a thinking mind? TNG's Data does not fulfill most of the criteria for 'living thing', but he does fill the criterion for 'person'. Same goes for demons and devils.

In her case the assumption that seems most logical to me is that it was magical love of some type and doesn't count; it seems like a succubus being physically capable of falling in love should be impossible to start with, so it stands to reason it's just some love goddess ****ing with her for funzies or something along those lines. And even that article stated something along the lines of "she doesn't really understand what good is anyways".

Let's be real here: Good opposes evil because if good lets evil outsiders do whatever they want, boom, evil wins; and it's not like evil's just gonna go "okay, okay, we stop tempting mortals and stealing souls". If you can get allies instead of just destroying or imprisoning your enemies (both of which impose much stricter restrictions on them than Helm, btw), that's a net positive in my books. If I can convert an irredeemable creature of evil into good then by the gods that's the most awesome thing ever, not morally questionable in the slightest. If there's an infinitesimal chance they are actually redeemable, well, whatever; the risk of running into one that would've converted on its own is so low it's not worth bothering about. The net result of not Helming an evil creature is with very high likelihood more evil than the net result of Helming away.

If it were about mortals, different matter but outsiders lack the freedom of choice mortals have. They need an outside source to even consider anything but what they're born to; as such, they should also be exempted from anything that assumes they're inherently capable of choosing differently from the alignment they embody. It is not hard to argue they lack free will and as such, you could actually treat them more as machines than sentient beings. Creative, intelligent machines to be sure but still incapable of fathoming concepts that are simple and natural to mortals. Hell, Helm's effect is even perfectly reversible; Wish and Miracle are quite accessible to Outsiders. So it's not like they're stuck that way if they prefer it the other way.

[Loreweaver15]

In her case the assumption that seems most logical to me is that it was magical love of some type and doesn't count; it seems like a succubus being physically capable of falling in love should be impossible to start with, so it stands to reason it's just some love goddess ****ing with her for funzies or something along those lines. And even that article stated something along the lines of "she doesn't really understand what good is anyways".

Let's be real here: Good opposes evil because if good lets evil outsiders do whatever they want, boom, evil wins; and it's not like evil's just gonna go "okay, okay, we stop tempting mortals and stealing souls". If you can get allies instead of just destroying or imprisoning your enemies (both of which impose much stricter restrictions on them than Helm, btw), that's a net positive in my books. If I can convert an irredeemable creature of evil into good then by the gods that's the most awesome thing ever, not morally questionable in the slightest. If there's an infinitesimal chance they are actually redeemable, well, whatever; the risk of running into one that would've converted on its own is so low it's not worth bothering about. The net result of not Helming an evil creature is with very high likelihood more evil than the net result of Helming away.

If it were about mortals, different matter but outsiders lack the freedom of choice mortals have. They need an outside source to even consider anything but what they're born to; as such, they should also be exempted from anything that assumes they're inherently capable of choosing differently from the alignment they embody. It is not hard to argue they lack free will and as such, you could actually treat them more as machines than sentient beings. Creative, intelligent machines to be sure but still incapable of fathoming concepts that are simple and natural to mortals. Hell, Helm's effect is even perfectly reversible; Wish and Miracle are quite accessible to Outsiders. So it's not like they're stuck that way if they prefer it the other way.

Sigh.

Okay, I'm going to respond to multiple parts of your post, but when I got to the bolded part, I just--ugh.

The Helm of Opposite Alignment doesn't let you prefer it the other way. It doesn't give you a taste of Good, or anything like that. It reaches into your head and your heart and flips every facet of your personality over to its opposite. Sure, you can err and make mistakes; you're not perfect. However, if you shove a Helm onto a sentient being, they will never choose to go back of their own volition, ever, because the parts of them that wanted things the way they were have been erased.

Gone.

Period, until something that can alter reality on a massive scale--i.e. Wish--comes along.

In light of that fact, I dare you to argue that putting a Helm onto a Good person is evil because it adds evil to the world, rather than the far more heinous crime of erasing an individual's agency.

And, no, Good doesn't oppose Evil because it doesn't want to lose; Good opposes Evil because Good cannot stand to see innocents suffer, to see harm done, to see oppression stand. Good opposes Evil because it believes the things Evil does are wrong, not to balance some cosmic scale.

If you need to invent some love goddess messing with Eludecia's brain to get her to change, then you're past stubbornness and onto putting your fingers in your ears and singing over the point of her character, which is that alignment is the sum of our actions, not the cause, and anything with an alignment and more than a couple points of INT can choose to be whatever it wants, no matter how few choose to exercise that right (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0866.html). Just because she doesn't consciously understand the changes happening in her heart doesn't mean they're not real.

[Sith_Happens]

In light of that fact, I dare you to argue that putting a Helm onto a Good person is evil because it adds evil to the world, rather than the far more heinous crime of erasing an individual's agency.

Personally I'd rephrase "because it adds Evil to the world" as "because that person is themselves going to start doing Evil as a direct consequence," but dare accepted: Freedom, agency, and all similar concepts are not only the purview of the Law-Chaos axis, they're the majority of the point of that axis.

Let me turn the question back on you: Why should Good have to respect people's right to do Evil? The reason Good opposes Evil is because Evil hurts people, and last I checked most magical alignment changes don't hurt.

[VoxRationis]

I would agree with you that using the Helm intentionally smacks of indoctrination and brainwashing and so many unsavory things—except the subject in this case is a being literally of pure evil, and only in a very, very few cases, mostly non-core, can they change their ways. It's not just that they were raised in an environment which encourages evil behavior, it's that they're made of evil, body and soul. Only in a campaign smacking of Annie's campaign from Darths and Droids are you going to be able to talk the succubus 'round. The options for decisively dealing with her basically consist of killing her or using the helm.

[squiggit]

If we've established that 'always evil' doesn't mean that they're forced to be evil and do not have a choice...why do you believe that they're forced to be evil and do not have a choice?
I didn't say that though. I said that there are measurable, standardized norms for a species of character and that extreme corner cases do not suddenly change those norms.


Generally, that is the result of cultural stuff (goblins, orcs, etc) influencing every new generation, or just bad writing.

Because that's what it is. Atrocious writing.
Or establishing that certain creatures exist beyond our normal expectations. Part of the problem here is that you're applying "real life" morality when discussing creatures literally built out of good or evil. It can be bad writing, it can also just be something different.


We're talking about a setting with a confirmed afterlife, where souls persisting after death is common knowledge. Reaching into someone's soul and changing it to suit yourself alters them forever, stripping them of independence and agency; killing someone, while still massively impactful, is functionally just a scenery change, and in the end, the reason for killing somebody determines the alignment of the action, not the fact that you killed someone. Murdering Tarquin for his pocket change is an evil act, despite all the good it would accomplish, because the reason for the act was the pennies in his pocket, not the liberation of his oppressed nations.

The creature in question is a demon, not Tarquin. Truly killing them involves utterly erasing them from existence (otherwise you're just putting them on time out). Nevermind that your Tarquin analogy doesn't fit because we're not talking about stealing pennies from some random guy. We're talking about a creature dedicating themselves to destroying or enslaving all life.


You've taken someone and applied a known effect to their mind and soul--you've switched it around 180 degrees. You know that that demon will be forced to have a particular perspective switch, will have all her priorities, choices, and values replaced with a particular set of other priorities, choices, and values, and thus the act of deliberately shoving a Helm onto her head has predictable results.

So, uh, yes, you have some control there, unless you're in the habit of not considering results, ever.

You can reasonably guesstimate what the end result would be, which is entirely different than "taking control of their actions".


In light of that fact, I dare you to argue that putting a Helm onto a Good person is evil because it adds evil to the world
Ok. Putting the Helm onto a Good person is evil because it adds evil to the world. Seems pretty straight forward. Propagating evil for its own sake = Evil.


Good opposes Evil because Good cannot stand to see innocents suffer, to see harm done, to see oppression stand. Good opposes Evil because it believes the things Evil does are wrong, not to balance some cosmic scale.
That's a given (excepting that Good can still be oppressive, merely not in an evil way). That's still completely tangential to the question here though.

Realize that while your opinion is a good one and one that can be strongly argued it's still just that. Treating it as an indelible fact is a bit annoying though. There's no need to get so angry over someone taking the opposing position in a hypothetical.

[Jon_Dahl]

I would agree with you that using the Helm intentionally smacks of indoctrination and brainwashing and so many unsavory things—except the subject in this case is a being literally of pure evil, and only in a very, very few cases, mostly non-core, can they change their ways. It's not just that they were raised in an environment which encourages evil behavior, it's that they're made of evil, body and soul. Only in a campaign smacking of Annie's campaign from Darths and Droids are you going to be able to talk the succubus 'round. The options for decisively dealing with her basically consist of killing her or using the helm.

Thank you for the voice of sanity. Can we please end the alignment discussion here, especially since it has been so nonsensical so far?


Well, it sounds like just picking up a couple of bows as backup weapons could at least be a start. Seriously, nobody has ranged capability except for the remarkably poorly-built Pyromancer?

No ranged skills whatsoever. The paladin has the Shaky flaw.


Your party should try to land a Grapple before she teleports away. Force those concentration checks.

This would work really well. The paladin could easily do this and the wilderness rogue could dominate with a selection of cold iron weapons (since they melt away in the case of babau).


Honestly, if they have not tried anything on their own, I don't understand why you feel compelled to provide them with a solution they're not actually seeking. If they are not actually trying to solve their problem, handing them a solution without them expending any effort isn't particularly different than having an NPC solve the problem. And especially considering how easy this problem is to solve simply by casting a couple spells such as dimensional anchor or even more simply, killing the target before she can teleport away, it honestly doesn't feel like they deserve to have this victory just handed to them.

If it is growing boring for you and the players to keep fighting the fiends and they teleport away over and over without the players ever seeking means to stop them, I would recommend just having them not find these fiends anymore. Obviously the fiends aren't trying to find them, and they're avoiding combat, so just have them leave. It doesn't sound like there's a compelling reason for the fiends to stay in the PCs neighborhood anyway. They go to another city hundreds of miles away and continue what they're doing. Later in the campaign, whatever they were doing has results that require the PCs to quest to fight it. Hopefully they will have learned to actually take action to solve their problems by that point.

This post really stopped me to think. How is engineering a forced solution any different from an DMPC that just solves everything by DM fiat? I don't see that much difference TBH. You're right and I'm starting to question my own motives here.

Unfortunately the PCs are strongly tied to this mission. They were given a chance to select from six different missions and they selected the "kill the leader of a cult". The leader is, of course, the succubus. If they fail that mission, it will be publicly embarassing for the PCs especially since an NPC adventuring group will take on the mission after their failure. I can't see any well-built and well-prepared mid-level adventuring group failing this mission.

[georgie_leech]

Maybe have them do an entirely different sub-quest that teaches them how to deal with teleporting enemies? Maybe a local Wizard (mostly an alchemist, say) is having problems with some weak imp-like (homebrew) creatures that he accidentally summoned. They're wrecking his equipment, defacing his notes, and attacking him by hurling random debris whenever he tries to deal with the problem. They don't have means of flight, instead constantly teleporting with Dimension Door to avoid close combat. As a result of this occurring near the end of a day, he's low and spells and can't manage himself. Said Wizard could give them a Wand of Dimensional Anchor with however many charges you think is necessary, and they get paid if they can get rid of them. If, after dealing with the little pests, they still can't figure out how to deal with teleportation... I don't think anything would be able to drill it into their heads.

[Rubik]

If the party is as incompetent as you say, maybe your group should learn a lesson from this.

You should either suggest that they start playing more capable characters OR you should start tailoring the encounters more to the party.

[AnonymousPepper]

Back on topic:

If you ever decide you just want the freaking thing dead, just drop a couple scrolls of Dimension Anchor on the party and be done with it. For extra "DO YOU GET THE MESSAGE?!" points, have them literally hit the party wizard on the head and deal damage from falling from the sky.

[Mnemnosyne]

Well, I know none of them are capable of casting it directly on their own, but if they actually go looking for solutions, the character with some levels in cleric can easily use a scroll of dimensional anchor or even a wand of it. If any of them have UMD, the flying problem can be solved with earthbind. Or they can obtain a potion of fly or a magical item that allows them to fly so they can go fight her in the air.

If your players are clueless to these solutions, and they actually expend effort trying to find such a solution, like going to a library, asking a wizard or magic item salesman, or whatever seems appropriate in your world, then I would have an NPC offer potential solutions, but first they have to ask someone that might reasonably know the answer, I would say. Certainly I see no reason to hold it against them if they don't happen to have the D&D spell lists and such memorized, but they've got to do something other than blunder forward with no changes in strategy before I would start offering them anything. And if they keep failing because they don't take the initiative to try anything different at all...I can't see a reason not to have them suffer their embarrassing failure.

[NichG]

This post really stopped me to think. How is engineering a forced solution any different from an DMPC that just solves everything by DM fiat? I don't see that much difference TBH. You're right and I'm starting to question my own motives here.

Unfortunately the PCs are strongly tied to this mission. They were given a chance to select from six different missions and they selected the "kill the leader of a cult". The leader is, of course, the succubus. If they fail that mission, it will be publicly embarassing for the PCs especially since an NPC adventuring group will take on the mission after their failure. I can't see any well-built and well-prepared mid-level adventuring group failing this mission.

Why not play that up? Being publically embarassed isn't a TPK after all, and maybe the NPC adventurers fail too. Maybe people start to suspect that there's more to the babau and succubus than meets the eye - it need not actually be true, of course. But this is actually a reasonable point in the campaign to say 'okay, you win some and lose some and the story goes on' and to get players to actually learn to deal with set backs that don't just end the story. In that sense, its sort of an opportunity.

But I would try to move on - don't make the game keep pushing them at this fight they can't seem to win; just deal with the consequences of failure and go on to the next thing. Have the succubus achieve some decisive goal of her own and then leave the prime material plane - if they keep chasing her down, its vengeance and not business at that point.

[Eldariel]

I'll just say where precisely I disagree with you and leave it at that; the chances of us actually increasing each others' understanding of anything seem miniscule so I don't see a reason to actually present arguments further arguments. I wish to offer you a way to understand why I think what I think; perhaps that's useful, perhaps it's not. Either way:


The Helm of Opposite Alignment doesn't let you prefer it the other way. It doesn't give you a taste of Good, or anything like that. It reaches into your head and your heart and flips every facet of your personality over to its opposite. Sure, you can err and make mistakes; you're not perfect. However, if you shove a Helm onto a sentient being, they will never choose to go back of their own volition, ever, because the parts of them that wanted things the way they were have been erased.

Gone.

Period, until something that can alter reality on a massive scale--i.e. Wish--comes along.

If evil, on its own, can decide to be good then someone made good by Helm can, equally on its own, decide to be evil again. It's not mind control. Just a change in alignment. If your thesis is true for the creature in question, then it's absolutely possible for it to decide to revert, even if it initially looks horrible; just as much as it's possible for non-outsider evils to become non-evil.

It's worth noting that it's equally true for my thesis; indeed, the fact that she is literally evil personified would make reversion easy since her essence remains unchanged.


In light of that fact, I dare you to argue that putting a Helm onto a Good person is evil because it adds evil to the world, rather than the far more heinous crime of erasing an individual's agency.

I don't see that as such a heinous crime from the view of the good-evil continuum. More of law-chaos. It's just a more extreme form of lifetime imprisonment, less severe than destruction; nothing out of the ordinary, an everyday event in D&D.


And, no, Good doesn't oppose Evil because it doesn't want to lose; Good opposes Evil because Good cannot stand to see innocents suffer, to see harm done, to see oppression stand. Good opposes Evil because it believes the things Evil does are wrong, not to balance some cosmic scale.

Good can be just as oppressive as evil. You seem to be arguing Law/Chaos axis. Freedom is Chaos. Order is Law. Good opposes Evil because they stand for the opposite things; that doesn't change any conclusions tho.


If you need to invent some love goddess messing with Eludecia's brain to get her to change, then you're past stubbornness and onto putting your fingers in your ears and singing over the point of her character, which is that alignment is the sum of our actions, not the cause, and anything with an alignment and more than a couple points of INT can choose to be whatever it wants, no matter how few choose to exercise that right (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0866.html). Just because she doesn't consciously understand the changes happening in her heart doesn't mean they're not real.

Eludecia is a demon. There are infinite demons. As such, if one out of infinite succubi is good it seems, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, easier to explain that through her being manipulated through an outside force than her being capable of the choice inherently. With infinite succubi, if they could become good on their own, no matter how unlikely, there'd be an infinite number of good succubi too. Harder to explain why only one is recorded than tp assume that the one did not become good on its own. In other words, based on evidence presented I find her being manipulated is the most probable theory

"Always Evil" is one thing; Outsiders are more extreme than that with the "Evil" subtype, lacking normal bodies (and hearts as it happens), and being literally beings made real by the alignment. It's just, they're alien things. I think you're trying to extend human thinking and morality to something to which that makes as much sense as a normal starfish alien to us; I think the disconnect here is, you're not actually treating the outsiders as the truly alien beings that they are.

I see absolutely no proof of them being able to choose as such. How can you choose what you cannot understand, something that is literally the antithesis of your being and mind? Freedom of choice seems to mostly characterize mortals. Indeed, that's one of mortals' defining characteristics. I don't see any basis to assume that outsiders have any more room for choice than e.g. intelligent magic items.

[Jon_Dahl]

Would this be the right moment to point out a little fact?
Creating a Helm of Opposite Alignment is NOT an evil act! Please see here:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm#helmofOppositeAlignment
If the creation of the item is not evil, how can the standard use (changing any alignment to its opposite) of item be evil? Please get with the program.
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lxr6jyQrLb1r3zat8.gif

[Jon_Dahl]

Well, I know none of them are capable of casting it directly on their own, but if they actually go looking for solutions, the character with some levels in cleric can easily use a scroll of dimensional anchor or even a wand of it. If any of them have UMD, the flying problem can be solved with earthbind. Or they can obtain a potion of fly or a magical item that allows them to fly so they can go fight her in the air.

If your players are clueless to these solutions, and they actually expend effort trying to find such a solution, like going to a library, asking a wizard or magic item salesman, or whatever seems appropriate in your world, then I would have an NPC offer potential solutions, but first they have to ask someone that might reasonably know the answer, I would say. Certainly I see no reason to hold it against them if they don't happen to have the D&D spell lists and such memorized, but they've got to do something other than blunder forward with no changes in strategy before I would start offering them anything. And if they keep failing because they don't take the initiative to try anything different at all...I can't see a reason not to have them suffer their embarrassing failure.

The cleric has the Magic domain and able to use magic items like 1st-level arcane caster.


Why not play that up? Being publically embarassed isn't a TPK after all, and maybe the NPC adventurers fail too. Maybe people start to suspect that there's more to the babau and succubus than meets the eye - it need not actually be true, of course. But this is actually a reasonable point in the campaign to say 'okay, you win some and lose some and the story goes on' and to get players to actually learn to deal with set backs that don't just end the story. In that sense, its sort of an opportunity.

But I would try to move on - don't make the game keep pushing them at this fight they can't seem to win; just deal with the consequences of failure and go on to the next thing. Have the succubus achieve some decisive goal of her own and then leave the prime material plane - if they keep chasing her down, its vengeance and not business at that point.

Good point. I might just eliminate the succubus from the game, even though she's a part of the story arch (whether live or dead).

[John Longarrow]

Jon_Dahl,

Have you tried sending the Assassin to kill the party? If the Babau actively goes after them, that should put him in melee range for a couple more rounds than otherwise, thus giving the party a chance to kill him. They HAVE interrupted the duo several times already, so the Succubi may decide to try and get rid of them...

[Eldariel]

An alternative could be having the party hire/receive help from a mage who has a low level anti-teleportation spell and mebbe fly. Catch is, the spell requires concentration so he won't be of help with anything but letting them fight. They get the fight and the glory, with a chance of victory. Of course, to best effect they need to take the initiative in seeking help.

[ace rooster]

They are fighting creatures with int of 16 and 14 respectively, who are the literal manifestations of two forms of evil cunning. Their combat numbers are almost irrelevant to fighting them, as they should be squishy enough that they will lose any straight up fight. They will do everything in their power to avoid such a fight. Ambushing them might work, but resorting immediately to insisting the party directly counter every escape tactic seems crude, and at that point your players are playing the system rather than the situation. The players need to put the demons in a situation where running is a loss rather than a null score for them. How this is done is very situation specific.

How are outsiders handled in your campaign? I would tend towards outsiders requiring some source of power to remain on the material plane, which immediately gives you a non DM fiat way out. If the only thing keeping them about is a maguffin, which needs a sacrifice every few days then problem solved. The demons are now tied to a location that they must defend. (as dismissal would result in the loss of the child and blah blah blah alignment of planets blah ... blah every thousand years blah ... blah prophesy must be fulfilled.) If their actual 'death' is only a 60 year (10a/HD) setback, the child is all important.

You now have an opening for a classic dungeon crawl, with pre made big bads, and charm person for lots of minions (with RP openings about the morals of killing charmed good guards). Add in a VIP about to be sacrificed that will keep the demons about for at least another month, and you have a time limit (full moon is traditional).

Some rules suggestions:
Things like planar binding requiring the spell slot be left open while it is in effect, and outsiders fading back into their plane at a rate of 1HD per hour without something keeping them about allow outsiders to maintain most of their function while explaining why the world is not crawling with them. If they can choose to dissolve from the material plane and reform on their home plane in 1 month per HD + 1 year per HD lost to fade, planar binding does not need a return clause (and will always piss off outsiders). If the XP cost of planar ally negates the month per HD time then PA is still good with them. Just a couple thoughts, as outsider motives need rules to be understood, and their motives are the only thing that can stop them trying to run.

As for the original question, killing smart creatures with at will teleport, change form, read thoughts, charm person, and ethereal jaunt that want to run away will always be tricky, as their objective is so easy.

[Loreweaver15]

I left the discussion because the OP asked us to stop, but since he's stepped in, I'll answer his post and take the rest to PMs: Just like with Sanctify the Wicked, you can look at the text alone or you can actually think about what it does and realize the ramifications of what's going on are much, much darker than the creators intended.

UNlike StW, there is no alignment tag attached to the Helm, so we're free to make of it what we will.

Also, for the alignment-choice enthusiasts:


and the affected individual does not make any attempt to return to the former alignment. (In fact, he views the prospect with horror and avoids it in any way possible.)

And, as a last note to those of you arguing that real-world moral considerations don't belong in D&D: Please, please just go play your murderhobos and stay out of these kinds of discussions, then, because people who actually find this stuff interesting and want to look into the guts and inner workings of the system's moral setup gain absolutely nothing from being told "oh why are you trying to bring real world ethics into this that's stupid just play the game and accept everything you're told". That doesn't serve the discussions at all, and it honestly bewilders me that people on a website devoted to a webcomic that has these very real-world considerations of the broken D&D implications at its core would be so eager to dismiss such discussions.

Anyways, OP requested the alignment debate stop, so before I ramble on any more, I'll stop. Sorry, Jon!

[Seclora]

Why does the succubus get a shot at redemption but not the babau? Just because the former is more human-like and prettier doesn't mean it's any more capable of redemption.

Actually, it's because the Babau has too many HD to be affected by Lesser Planar Binding. You'd need to get full Planar Binding to get him.
Also because it's been mentioned that she's pregnant. Frankly, I'd rather kill both of them, but if the Half-Fiend growing inside of her is independent enough that she can't teleport with it, then it has to be considered a separate being and judged as such. She might be evil, but with Capitol 'G' Good parenting, it might not be.

[Socksy]

I've only read through the first page, but... seriously, guys? Trying to grapple a Succubus??
They grapple in order to land their kisses! You're giving her a snack!

[John Longarrow]

Socksy,
With a good grapple build you could pin her, thus keeping her from kissing anyone. Alternately just have the grappler be good at saving.

From the looks of the party though, I don't think they have anyone who could pull it off. She does have a +7 after all.

[Icewraith]

How do you pin the succubus without by definition qualifying to be hit by its draining abilities?

Party needs to either hire a spellcaster, find and use scrolls or other magic items, or raise their tier level. If you hand them a set of one-time use antimagic shackles they should be able to figure out what to do with them.

Also, note that adding automatic alignment based usage consequences on unaligned items with no such rules restrictions on their normal use is as much houseruling as changing or ignoring alignment effects from other spells, even if you disagree with the mechanics.

(Clarification for those interested)
Certainly, fireballing a group of generic/default/normal orphans with a wand of fireball is an evil act. However, use of a wand of fireball is not inherently evil and has no mechanical interaction with alignment for general usage. Since creation and posession of the helm of opposite alignment lack mechanical alignment consequences, by the rules its usage is not inherently [alignment] or [opposite alignment]. Arguments to the contrary (even if well intentioned) are projecting your personal alignment houserules on someone else's campaign.

Note that there's still room for consistent use of a magic item in a certain manner to affect alignment (fireballing orphans, especially habitually fireballing orphans, for example), but the way the default alignment system is written, unless otherwise stated an act that channels the power of a certain alignment is [that alignment] and an act that intentionally inhibits the forces of a certain alignment is [opposite alignment]. Helming an evil outsider should probably be [good], and helming a good outsider should likewise probably be [evil] under the standard alignment system.

This is similar to how murder is bad under the normal system, but most of the good aligned gods are more likely to give you a pat on the back and a quest reward than pitch a fit if you kill the high priest of the god of puppy kicking, stealing candy from babies, and tying damsels to railroad tracks. Offing some poor sap is wrong, but killing someone actively participating in the opposite side of the great cosmic alignment battle is fine.

[John Longarrow]

Icewrath,

Arms behind back, faced down in dirt. One hand holds arms, other pushes face in dirt (or both hold arms, still keep head away from person holding her).
The TV show COPS shows a few other neat ways to do it also.

Course if they had a MONK it would be easy, they are the best prison guards around! Ideal for subduing inmates.... :nale:

[Trasilor]

If I read this correctly, a succubus and Babau keep fleeing from the PCs (without giving them XP :smallmad:).

As it stands, she is not a threat. As a non-threat the PCs will continue to ignore her. Make her a threat. Make is so the PCs are forced to run away. This should give them the incentive to figure out solutions to defeat this flying/teleporting nemesis.

From the succubus's point of view, these PCs are very troublesome. All of her plans have been thwarted by these 'do gooders' she would be looking to eliminate them.

Do not be afraid of killing the PCs (especially when they don't prepare or make foolish choices). If death wasn't a real consequence, players can become uninterested. Game of Thrones is interesting because nobody has plot armor.

[Zirconia]

I do agree with the person that mentioned the more fundamental problem with this party; they have no way of dealing with anything they can't melee. Throwing a few flying or otherwise mobile "random" encounters at them to encourage them to fix this could help, I've had fightery types pick up bows at 2nd level and not use them for half a dozen more levels till that ONE fight came along when I really needed it. Maybe Griffons to steal horses, something like that. With their current level it certainly wouldn't break the bank to get some ranged weapons and specialized ammo like Demon Slaying arrows.

More long term, perhaps you can get them hooked up with a grateful NPC who makes scrolls and such so that when they run into a specialized problem a largely melee party can't deal with, they can consult him and pick up supplies to deal with that specialized problem. They collect magic components, he provides 1-shot items, that kind of thing.

Somewhere around I saw a list of "things PCs need to be able to do" and magic items to achieve them, such as fly, etc. Unfortunately I can't find it now.

[VoxRationis]

Game of Thrones is interesting because nobody has plot armor.
:cough:AshaGreyjoy:cough:
You clearly haven't been reading the last couple of books. I'm not sure whether they dug it out of their spare closets or it's a new invention in Westeros, but people started getting plot armor in Feast For Crows.

[Jon_Dahl]

I haven't read the last message, I stopped after the coughing, but I hope there isn't spoilery material there without spoiler tags :)

[VoxRationis]

I don't think it was a real spoiler, but I put it in just in case.

[Jon_Dahl]

As has been said, dimensional anchor is your friend. Anticipate teleport is a lower level and will only help if they use the teleporting offensively, but it's there as an option.

Also the Succubus has only 33 health...a dead succubus can't teleport, catch her by surprise and red mist her. Also spell-like abilities still provoke attacks of opportunity, and can still be disrupted. A Babau has only +5 concentration, and a Succubus +10, plenty easy to disrupt, DC 17 + damage dealt would be hard for them, and even the DC 22 check to cast defensively is a pain for them.

Sorry, I just had to get back to this.
I checked that the dimensional anchor is subject to spell resistance. Succubus's spell resistance is 18. Any dimensional anchor cast from a wand will have caster level 7. Most likely the wand will not work, and the succubus can try to charm the wand user or escape.

Or was the plan that you spam the succubus with the wand? Right?

[Sir Chuckles]

Sorry, I just had to get back to this.
I checked that the dimensional anchor is subject to spell resistance. Succubus's spell resistance is 18. Any dimensional anchor cast from a wand will have caster level 7. Most likely the wand will not work, and the succubus can try to charm the wand user or escape.

Or was the plan that you spam the succubus with the wand? Right?

Any? It's possible to have a wand with a higher caster level than 7...

[Mnemnosyne]

Spell vulnerability (104 Planar Handbook) will lower the target's spell resistance. Assay spell resistance (17 Spell Compendium) will boost the caster's CL checks...and there's no wording that specifies it must be by a spell cast directly by them, rather than off an item (conversely, there is no wording that specifically says it works for item-cast spells either, so there's some potential interpretation issues).

[Coidzor]

Well, they obviously need some form of flight. Maybe they find a clutch of flying X eggs/young to rear or can befriend some young bucks wishing to make names for themselves by joining up with some adventurers.

The bit where you're just having her flee and not giving them any reward for forcing her to flee may be communicating to them that they're not actually supposed to fight and kill her and that you're using narrativium there, and by repeatedly doing this you're just reinforcing a defeatist attitude where they don't try anything because they feel they're not allowed to try anything because you've already got what happens set in stone.

Sounds like they need a palate cleansing sidequest for a session or two. And, hey, introducing them to flying mounts while you're at it is two birds with one stone.


I've only read through the first page, but... seriously, guys? Trying to grapple a Succubus??
They grapple in order to land their kisses! You're giving her a snack!

So your grapler eats one draining attack(if they don't have a Death Ward up) and then she gets power attacked for full by the relevant beatsticks and she's turned into a fine red mist. Big Whoop. And that's if the DM is an ass and rules that beating a Succubus in a grapple fails to prevent them from kissing the person grappling them.

Also, there's the whole *IF* she survives long enough to even use the energy draining kiss on her turn in play as well.


Some options:
1. I could arrange the PCs to have some magical items that could be used slay the demons, but what items would those be? And why would anyone give them such items and not use them themselves?

Crafters generally are running a business and thus aren't going off gallivanting after random succubi, especially if they're semi-retired or just plain retired from the whole adventuring thing, so there's that angle. Or they could have the items due to having a stockpile of anti-demon stuff, but the usual people are off on other assignments, so it's just the people who watch over the stockpile hanging around and they've got to stay there and can't go and chase after random demons.

There's *many* reasons why someone would have items that they would be willing to loan, lend, rent out to, or sell to the party and wouldn't be keen on or able to go and kill the demons themselves.


2. They could hire a demon hunter. This would be a DMPC solution, and everyone hates DMPCs. NPCs fighting NPCs riiiiiight

Not if it's not a DMPC, but is instead just a walking, talking maguffin that cancels out their ability to run away so that the climactic battle you want to happen can go ahead and happen already since you didn't plan out how to make it happen any other way.

[MadGreenSon]

3. Demons could be their buddies and not enemies? I don't know... If you can't beat them, join them?

This. I would entirely do this to a party. Have the Babau decide that they are now best buddies and come over, hang out, try get get 'em to go bar-crawling with him, etc.

Maybe they could all pose for a portrait together?:smallbiggrin: