Small people are immune from lycanthropy?

[felinoel]

I have a player who knows he is infected but I've only hinted at it so far and he keeps sending me messages trying to convince me that he won't be or to convince me not to turn him. lol

His latest message was that small people are immune to lycanthropy because you have to be the same size of the werebeast to be infected... lol that sounds too ridiculous to be true, is it?

It doesn't matter anyways because he was infected by a magical stone in the Beastlands but yeah, just wondering.

[Rubik]

The size of the animal of the lycanthropy strain that infected you must be within one size category of yours. Thus, halflings cannot catch dire wolf lycanthropy, though they can catch regular wolf lycanthropy.


Size and Type

The base creature’s type does not change, but the creature gains the shapechanger subtype. The lycanthrope takes on the characteristics of some type of carnivorous or omnivorous creature of the animal type (referred to hereafter as the base animal).

This animal can be any predator, scavenger, or omnivore whose size is within one size category of the base creature’s size (Small, Medium, or Large for a Medium base creature). Lycanthropes can also adopt a hybrid shape that combines features of the base creature and the base animal. A lycanthrope’s hybrid form is the same size as the base animal or the base creature, whichever is larger. Allow him to buy off his LA and rebuild his HD into class levels, and he'll likely want to start catching all sorts of strains for super-quick level-ups.

[ShurikVch]

I personally have a number of issues with lycanthropy size restriction.

1. Templated animals may still be animals, but lycanthrope doesn't inherit it's template. What if halfling will be afflicted by lycanthropy from dungeonbred dire wolf? (Or, for more impact, - Storm Giant and Titanic Rat?)

2. Unusual fantasy family: one parent is human natural wererat, other is minotaur. By the rules of natural lycanthropy, their children should inherit it, but half-minotaurs are too big for wererats

3. Let's say, half-ogre werewolf (normal wolf, not a dire wolf) became Thrall of Kostchtchie and turned huge at capstone. Does it mean he was accidentally cured from lycanthropy?

[NoACWarrior]

If you have issues with lycanthropy size restrictions you are free to houserule them instead.

The size restriction is important to balance the game, otherwise people could potentially abuse lycanthropy and go from medium to Huge (battletitan), or be nerfed (regular rat is tiny).

Lycanthropy is a curse handed down by infection, not by birthright. Natural lycantrhopes are generated by godly intervention or some type of divine power.

If you gain or lose a size category that makes you not qualify to be a lycanthrope you still retain the Hitdice and the lycantrhopy condition, but are unable to use any special abilities which are reliant in your other forms which you now cannot change into. Congratulations, you suddenly have x animal HD and a higher ECL (+2 or +3) for having a disabled ability.


But yes, there are problems with the size restrictions of a lycanthrope.

[ShurikVch]

Lycanthropy is a curse handed down by infection, not by birthright. Natural lycantrhopes are generated by godly intervention or some type of divine power. "Infection" is just a fluff talk - characters immune to all diseases (say, Paladins) are not immune to lycanthropy. And where you get it about "godly intervention"? All the book say is: "Other lycanthropes are born as lycanthropes, and are known as natural lycanthropes." Since "village of werewolves" is fairly typical setup, I think they more likely inherited lycanthropy from their parents, than were bitten as a toddlers


If you gain or lose a size category that makes you not qualify to be a lycanthrope you still retain the Hitdice and the lycantrhopy condition, but are unable to use any special abilities which are reliant in your other forms which you now cannot change into. Congratulations, you suddenly have x animal HD and a higher ECL (+2 or +3) for having a disabled ability. Hey, then what's about temporal size change? Does it mean rampaging werewolf can be stopped by simple Reduce Person?

[Raezeman]

i would say don't cling to the rules so much, and make him turn in a smaller version of the beast. So let's say if the creature usually is large, and the character is small, make him turn in a medium sized variant of the creature. For the stats, you can use the rules in the monster manual for increasing the creature size from medium to large in reverse.

[TuggyNE]

Hey, then what's about temporal size change? Does it mean rampaging werewolf can be stopped by simple Reduce Person?

Seldom if ever. For that matter, in hybrid or animal form, a lycanthrope of a large creature is also large, which would suggest that they would just go back down to being medium, which doesn't disqualify them.

A small humanoid with a small animal form, on the other hand, could be disqualified in theory with reduce person, or a large with a large; both are quite rare, though, especially the latter.

[Zubrowka74]

"Infection" is just a fluff talk - characters immune to all diseases (say, Paladins) are not immune to lycanthropy.

Isn't lycanthropy a curse?

[ShurikVch]

Isn't lycanthropy a curse?
Not exactly.
Despite SA name "Curse of lycanthropy", it's not a curse, but very unique affliction

What ordinary curse allow to remove by eating some belladonna?
Also, it can be removed by remove disease or heal spell cast by a cleric of 12th level or
higher.

So sometimes it behave like a curse, sometimes - like disease, and for natural lycanthropes it's just a part of what they are

[Metahuman1]

What form of Lycanthropy are you dropping on him? And what's his current build?

Cause depending, he might be right and by not following RAW here, you could be completely screwing his character over permanently, which is kinda a jerk move. Heck, it's a jerk move even if he can by-pass it cause he has to expend time and resources to do that. Time and Resources he might not really be able to afford not spending on other things.

That said, depending on his build and the kind acquired, this might be workable for him, particularly with LA buyoff or some tweaking to the rules for how the Lycanthropy works.

[felinoel]

I personally have a number of issues with lycanthropy size restriction.

1. Templated animals may still be animals, but lycanthrope doesn't inherit it's template. What if halfling will be afflicted by lycanthropy from dungeonbred dire wolf? (Or, for more impact, - Storm Giant and Titanic Rat?)

2. Unusual fantasy family: one parent is human natural wererat, other is minotaur. By the rules of natural lycanthropy, their children should inherit it, but half-minotaurs are too big for wererats

3. Let's say, half-ogre werewolf (normal wolf, not a dire wolf) became Thrall of Kostchtchie and turned huge at capstone. Does it mean he was accidentally cured from lycanthropy?I agree but issues like inheriting (and the one my player is infected by, magical infection) don't seem to apply to those rules from the sound of it, it seems that these rules are more for people infected by another lycanthrope rather than by other means.


If you have issues with lycanthropy size restrictions you are free to houserule them instead.I know, as I said in the OP it just seemed like a weird rule and wanted to be sure he wasn't lying lol, he is cursed magically so no worries here.


The size restriction is important to balance the game, otherwise people could potentially abuse lycanthropy and go from medium to Huge (battletitan), or be nerfed (regular rat is tiny).But... that just sounds awesomely hilarious?


Hey, then what's about temporal size change? Does it mean rampaging werewolf can be stopped by simple Reduce Person?xD


i would say don't cling to the rules so much, and make him turn in a smaller version of the beast. So let's say if the creature usually is large, and the character is small, make him turn in a medium sized variant of the creature. For the stats, you can use the rules in the monster manual for increasing the creature size from medium to large in reverse.That is what I would do if the issue were here, though I think I will just make him medium when it benefits him and small when it benefits him, I think I saw a rule like that for large people or something...


What form of Lycanthropy are you dropping on him? And what's his current build?lol uhhhhh, well he is an anthropomorphic lemur airbender from the Avatar d20 system (I allowed it since it was funny) with a pretty much pure wisdom build.
He is infected with the weretiger form of lycanthropy which he rolled for because he signed his true name on some magical lycanthrope stone in the Beastlands from this one book on the planes where lycanthropes went to sign their beastmarks on to gain stat boosts or something. He did it to try to fit in with the tons of lycanthropes there but he didn't realize it was his true name I guess lol

So an anthropomorphic lemur/tiger man shall be the end result. Hilarious.


Cause depending, he might be right and by not following RAW here, you could be completely screwing his character over permanently, which is kinda a jerk move. Heck, it's a jerk move even if he can by-pass it cause he has to expend time and resources to do that. Time and Resources he might not really be able to afford not spending on other things.

That said, depending on his build and the kind acquired, this might be workable for him, particularly with LA buyoff or some tweaking to the rules for how the Lycanthropy works.To be honest the big baddies of this campaign are the Vashar, they are merging all of the planes together in order to kill as many gods as possible and then be able to pick them off one by one the ones that survive the ordeal of all planes combining, so because of this I am eventually going to be turning my players all into gods for the end battle and since he is abusing his wisdom stat horribly I was going to make him ascend into godhood purely from being wise enough for it while the others are doing things like the Deck of Many Things (for the luck-based player), Ssendam stepping in and granting divine ranks (for the player who's character is literally insane), and etc.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Lycanthropy is a curse handed down by infection, not by birthright. Natural lycantrhopes are generated by godly intervention or some type of divine power.
The template flat out states. "The lycanthrope template can be inherited (for natural lycanthropes)"

[Metahuman1]

lol uhhhhh, well he is an anthropomorphic lemur airbender from the Avatar d20 system (I allowed it since it was funny) with a pretty much pure wisdom build.
He is infected with the weretiger form of lycanthropy which he rolled for because he signed his true name on some magical lycanthrope stone in the Beastlands from this one book on the planes where lycanthropes went to sign their beastmarks on to gain stat boosts or something. He did it to try to fit in with the tons of lycanthropes there but he didn't realize it was his true name I guess lol

So an anthropomorphic lemur/tiger man shall be the end result. Hilarious.

To be honest the big baddies of this campaign are the Vashar, they are merging all of the planes together in order to kill as many gods as possible and then be able to pick them off one by one the ones that survive the ordeal of all planes combining, so because of this I am eventually going to be turning my players all into gods for the end battle and since he is abusing his wisdom stat horribly I was going to make him ascend into godhood purely from being wise enough for it while the others are doing things like the Deck of Many Things (for the luck-based player), Ssendam stepping in and granting divine ranks (for the player who's character is literally insane), and etc.

Well, here's what I'd do in that case.

I'd stick him with the LA and Animal Hit Dice, as normal, and then immediately offer him one of the rebuild quests in the PHB 2 to get rid of them so that he can keep advancing his class levels. Also, if he hasn't been told he's a Were Tiger yet, while I might still keep that, I'd also look at making him suffer being a Were Bear or a Were Lion. Maybe even making suffer the dire version of one of the three just for the lol's.

You still get your humor out of the situation, and he get's a power up after he's been made to work and suffer for it just a little.

[Particle_Man]

The size of the animal of the lycanthropy strain that infected you must be within one size category of yours. Thus, halflings cannot catch dire wolf lycanthropy, though they can catch regular wolf lycanthropy.

Were-kitty for the win! Housecats need more love, and one might get confused with a tibbet!

[Rubik]

Were-kitty for the win! Housecats need more love, and one might get confused with a tibbet!Considering the LA involved, you're better off just using a tibbit.

[felinoel]

Well, here's what I'd do in that case.

I'd stick him with the LA and Animal Hit Dice, as normal, and then immediately offer him one of the rebuild quests in the PHB 2 to get rid of them so that he can keep advancing his class levels. Also, if he hasn't been told he's a Were Tiger yet, while I might still keep that, I'd also look at making him suffer being a Were Bear or a Were Lion. Maybe even making suffer the dire version of one of the three just for the lol's.

You still get your humor out of the situation, and he get's a power up after he's been made to work and suffer for it just a little.
Why werebear or werelion instead? I like weretiger cause of the coloring of the fur mixed with the lemur fur. Red on white. He seems to think he will get a wisdom boost, it has been a while since I've looked at that but is that true? Why would it be?


"Fair warning, if I get infected with lycanthropy I will basically gain damage reduction and a wisdom boost with no downsides. Might want to try to avoid that"

[Metahuman1]

Yeah, 3.5 E all Lycanthrops regaurdless of type get either a +2 or a +4 to Wis, I forget which off the top of my head.

The downside is the template also makes pretty much all builds except "wereX but weak at it." unplayable from the HD and LA it assignens, hence my suggestion to give him a rebuild quest to ditch those cause otherwise your kinda taking his character and royally screwing it into unplayability.


As for why a bear or a lion, cause of the funny impact of itty bitty lemer suddenly turning into giant hulking monster when it transforms.

[Doc_Maynot]

Speaking of Lycanthropy, I hope you are aware of the Control Shape skill, and the potential forced alignment change.

[Rubik]

Speaking of Lycanthropy, I hope you are aware of the Control Shape skill, and the potential forced alignment change.Isn't there a feat that forces a natural lycanthrope to use Control Shape to do anything, which is literally nothing but a nerf to the character?

[Doc_Maynot]

Isn't there a feat that forces a natural lycanthrope to use Control Shape to do anything, which is literally nothing but a nerf to the character?

Not that I am aware of.

[felinoel]

Yeah, 3.5 E all Lycanthrops regaurdless of type get either a +2 or a +4 to Wis, I forget which off the top of my head.

The downside is the template also makes pretty much all builds except "wereX but weak at it." unplayable from the HD and LA it assignens, hence my suggestion to give him a rebuild quest to ditch those cause otherwise your kinda taking his character and royally screwing it into unplayability.

As for why a bear or a lion, cause of the funny impact of itty bitty lemer suddenly turning into giant hulking monster when it transforms.Wis is a weird stat to buff... wait... it buffs other stats too, right? Cause that would make more sense lol

I gave them some hero levels they don't know about, predestinying them for their role, the LA can eat into that.

lol true, ok fine werelion for the size and color. :smallbiggrin:


Speaking of Lycanthropy, I hope you are aware of the Control Shape skill, and the potential forced alignment change.
I didn't realize it had a name, only figured it was a natural part of lycanthropy, I knew of these stats and rules just not the name lol
As an airbender monk he is pretty much a paladin form of LG

[Lord Vukodlak]

Isn't there a feat that forces a natural lycanthrope to use Control Shape to do anything, which is literally nothing but a nerf to the character? No there is not.
3.0 had a feat called "Improved Control Shape" buried in at the end of the control shape skill which read.

"Natural lycanthropes instead have the Improved Control Shape feat, which gives them full control over their shapeshifting abilities."It was barely a feat just one line buried in a paragraph, 3.5 eliminated the feat and instead simply says "natural lycanthropes have full control over this power."

You probably saw the feat at the website www.realmshelps.net which due to piss poor editing mixed up the improved control shape feat from 3.0 with the control shape skill. But to reiterate there is not actually a feat that forces a natural lycanthrope to use Control Shape.

[Doc_Maynot]

I didn't realize it had a name, only figured it was a natural part of lycanthropy, I knew of these stats and rules just not the name lol
As an airbender monk he is pretty much a paladin form of LG

Well then he may run into some issues, I think werebear is the only LG aligned lycanthrope


No there is not.
3.0 had a feat called "Improved Control Shape" buried in at the end of the control shape skill which read.
It was barely a feat just one line buried in a paragraph, 3.5 eliminated the feat and instead simply says "natural lycanthropes have full control over this power."

You probably saw the feat at the website www.realmshelps.net which due to piss poor editing mixed up the improved control shape feat from 3.0 with the control shape skill. But to reiterate there is not actually a feat that forces a natural lycanthrope to use Control Shape.

Yeah, control shape is the only thing that forces you to use control shape. (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Control_Shape_Skill)

Only using a dandwiki link due o control shape being buried at the bottom of the lycanthrope page on d20srd.

[felinoel]

Well then he may run into some issues, I think werebear is the only LG aligned lycanthropeTo be honest his paladin-y goodness is quite annoying and may end up with him and the literally insane guy fighting to the death, something that forces an alignment change would be good for the party... unless airbender requires LG... will have to check that...

Speaking of the literally insane guy, I was having him ascend to godhood by having Ssendam (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=5053288&postcount=10) find him worthy and whatnot, but Tharizdûn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Forgotten_Temple_of_Tharizdun) seems to have his own dungeon already made, I would just need to acquire a copy of the book and update it to 3.5... plus Tharizdûn is actually IN 3.5, in both the Complete Divine and the Lords of Madness, for that matter so are Zagyg and Ralishaz...

Maybe I should make a new thread for this...

EDIT:
Done.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?339286-Deities-of-Insanity-or-just-deities-who-are-actually-insane

EDIT:

Well then he may run into some issues, I think werebear is the only LG aligned lycanthropeWerelion isn't listed anywhere I can find, what alignment would a werelion be?

Lions seem more LG to me than a bear but that is just me.

EDIT:
I've found:
http://thecreaturechronicle.tumblr.com/post/41187081054/lycanthrope-werelion
http://thecreaturechronicle.tumblr.com/post/41192711108/lycanthrope-dire-werelion
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3359.0
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031212a

But werelions are LE while dire werelions are LG, due to nobility and whatnot? lol
I guess I could make him a dire werelion due to the affliction afflicting him magically instead of naturally...

[Metahuman1]

Wis is a weird stat to buff... wait... it buffs other stats too, right? Cause that would make more sense lol

I gave them some hero levels they don't know about, predestinying them for their role, the LA can eat into that.

lol true, ok fine werelion for the size and color. :smallbiggrin:


It buffs other stats in the transformed state, what and how much depend on what your turn into. Wis however is an always on buff, and it's suppose to help reflect your vicious determination to do things a certain way per your new alignment by boosting your will save, and your heightened senses by helping spot and listen checks. And your increased cunning cause Wis is tied to Cunning and Insight by fluff though not mechanics.


And like I said, make him sit through a session or two with the hit dice and LA while muddling through a quest to get rid of the hit dice and LA, and he'll be fine. I promise.

And as for Dire Lion, it's technically gonna require a rules fiat for you to do that but as the DM, that's your poragative. I think all it does is offer some extra stat boosts and maybe a small boost to natural weapons, Natural Armor and movement speed, nothing too game breaking.

[Vogonjeltz]

If you have issues with lycanthropy size restrictions you are free to houserule them instead.

The size restriction is important to balance the game, otherwise people could potentially abuse lycanthropy and go from medium to Huge (battletitan), or be nerfed (regular rat is tiny).

Lycanthropy is a curse handed down by infection, not by birthright. Natural lycantrhopes are generated by godly intervention or some type of divine power.

If you gain or lose a size category that makes you not qualify to be a lycanthrope you still retain the Hitdice and the lycantrhopy condition, but are unable to use any special abilities which are reliant in your other forms which you now cannot change into. Congratulations, you suddenly have x animal HD and a higher ECL (+2 or +3) for having a disabled ability.


But yes, there are problems with the size restrictions of a lycanthrope.

The players have no say in the existence of lycanthropes. No player abuse is possible.

[felinoel]

It buffs other stats in the transformed state, what and how much depend on what your turn into. Wis however is an always on buff, and it's suppose to help reflect your vicious determination to do things a certain way per your new alignment by boosting your will save, and your heightened senses by helping spot and listen checks. And your increased cunning cause Wis is tied to Cunning and Insight by fluff though not mechanics.

And like I said, make him sit through a session or two with the hit dice and LA while muddling through a quest to get rid of the hit dice and LA, and he'll be fine. I promise. lol, to both of those statements.


And as for Dire Lion, it's technically gonna require a rules fiat for you to do that but as the DM, that's your poragative. I think all it does is offer some extra stat boosts and maybe a small boost to natural weapons, Natural Armor and movement speed, nothing too game breaking.Or I could give him the weretiger stats as planned, call him a dire werelion so he gets to be LG and a liomur

hmmm... liomur as in a lemur/lion, maybe... lemon? xD!!!!
Yes he shall be a lemon!


The players have no say in the existence of lycanthropes. No player abuse is possible.I saw your avatar and thought someone hijacked my account to make this post. :smalltongue: