Was everyone in the first world first level?

[Particle_Man]

Did goblins/kobolds only get invented in the 2nd iteration of the World? If so, does that mean that everyone in the first world was only first level, because they had no low-level monsters to "train up" on? No wonder the Snarl kicked their asses.

[kivzirrum]

Hmm, to the best of my knowledge, there's no clear answer to that question anywhere in the comic or Rich's comments. Though I'm certain that even without low level monsters, at least SOME characters would level up beyond 1.

[Mith]

Only the Evil characters leveled up, as they killed a lot of Commoners for XP, which is not OK.:smallsmile:

[Raddish]

The first world involved a lot of role-playing xp instead.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

In the first world, they used diplomacy and talking. Also, they liked to climb trees, use rope, make boats, catch fish, and do all sort of other things that aren't fighting.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I have two hypotheses:

1) They used the others ways of leveling up than merely killing things. The first world had some of the best role-playing ever created.

2) In the first world, there were no divine casters. So, the wizards and sorcerors used their magic to kill easy targets (commoners and the like), allowing them to level up enough to fight higher-level threats.

[Mighty]

They killed rats in basements for xp.

[David Argall]

While we have no reason for doubt, we really have no information [and no real reason for interest]. The only information we have comes from biased sources, and not much of that either. Just about anything is possible.
274 says "newly minted world", which suggests higher levels had not had time to show up. But it also says "mightiest of dragons" who would also not show up except under conditions that would allow higher levels. And we can assume that the stated creation of humanoids as XP fodder happened in the 1st world if we want...
So you can put in any conclusion you want.

[Finagle]

False premise. A world in which epic level characters are common as dirt still wouldn't have stood a chance against the Snarl. It killed gods, for Pete's sake. Mortals? Forget it.

[smuchmuch]

False premise. A world in which epic level characters are common as dirt still wouldn't have stood a chance against the Snarl. It killed gods, for Pete's sake. Mortals? Forget it.

Actualy I do believe said premice extrapolate from the theory stated in comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html) that because the Snarl is litteraly made out of god frustration, gods are more vulnerable to it, hence why mortlas of the same level would stand a better chance against the snarl.

However i think what the opening post is missing here is that it would require said mortal to be at the same level as gods, which I would assume is the higher tier of epic, at the very least ?
So yes it does seem reasonable there wouldn't be oodle of those in a newly created world. And anyway being less vulnerable is not the same as 'sure victory'. And it's jsut a theory anyway

[factotum]

Did goblins/kobolds only get invented in the 2nd iteration of the World?

Not enough information to say. The Gods could have had their revelation about their clerics all sucking during the construction of World #1 and they would thus have had time to introduce the goblinoids before the Snarl awoke. (Mind you, there's a bit of a contradiction in the Snarl story there anyway--it was supposedly created from the Gods disagreeing about how to build the world, yet the world was definitely in existence and populated with people at the point it was destroyed).

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Not enough information to say. The Gods could have had their revelation about their clerics all sucking during the construction of World #1 and they would thus have had time to introduce the goblinoids before the Snarl awoke. (Mind you, there's a bit of a contradiction in the Snarl story there anyway--it was supposedly created from the Gods disagreeing about how to build the world, yet the world was definitely in existence and populated with people at the point it was destroyed).

I think they decided this in the second world, because in their discussion they hint at the Snarl's existence, saying "We all know what happens should we ever come to direct conflict over how to run this new world" at the start of their discussion. Also, there are no Eastern Gods.

And I always assumed that the Snarl, while a result of the gods arguments, only became sentient after the world had been built. Perhaps the gods continued arguing afterwords, or perhaps there was some touching-up that they wanted to do, which they then continued to argue over.

[Sylthia]

There's always animals and evil player race humanoids for murder XP.

[SavageWombat]

They didn't invent experience points until world 2.0. Until they agreed on the need for a more robust rule set, they were playing under sort of a Free Kriegspiel kind of system, much like yelling "I shot you! You're dead!"

/what do kids play now instead of Cowboys and Indians anyway?

[Particle_Man]

/what do kids play now instead of Cowboys and Indians anyway?

Videogames?

[Drake2009]

I have two hypotheses:

1) They used the others ways of leveling up than merely killing things. The first world had some of the best role-playing ever created.

2) In the first world, there were no divine casters. So, the wizards and sorcerors used their magic to kill easy targets (commoners and the like), allowing them to level up enough to fight higher-level threats.

Actually they did have divine casters. They were just super low level. its in the Start of Darkness.

A lot of what your talking about is in Start of Darkness. The snarl killed the eastern gods and was then trapped in a new world (as we all know). They built the humanoids after they trapped the snarl, but not at the same time as others. Then the gods put the humanoids in terrible places of the earth to make sure they dont take over cause there are more of them. They were used as easy xp and it went well till the dark one banded them all together, tried to negotiate, and was killed. He rose up a year later cause all the humanoids were killing everything for revenge. He learned of how they sabotaged the goblin race and he was angry!

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Actually they did have divine casters. They were just super low level. its in the Start of Darkness.

That was the second world. In the first world, the gods didn't have any set territories, so they didn't need any divine casters to work for them. Their discussion to make divine casters occurs after the first world is destroyed.

[Kish]

Of course, Start of Darkness has an inconsistency there. The gods were concerned about their divine spellcasters never getting past first level. They didn't seem concerned about the earlier-created classes, the fighters and sorcerers and bards, getting past first level; they talked about clerics being "not as cool as wizards," but there's nothing terribly cool about casting Magic Missile at the darkness all day, and they were concerned about the humanoid monsters they'd created taking over, but not previously concerned about a beholder nest declaring all humans their slaves.

[Selvec]

Almost sounds like some sort of throwback message about how D&D gamers always think the earlier editions are the best ones. The 1st world had the best RP, and the best experience, and everything was so awesome. Which is pretty much what everyone says about the last editions of D&D "Oh 2nd Edition was so much better for RP then 3rd Edition. It was a better experience and everything was awesome." or "Oh 3.5 was so much greater then 4th edition, the RP was better and we had way more fun!".

[Finagle]

Actually they did have divine casters. They were just super low level. its in the Start of Darkness.

A lot of what your talking about is in Start of Darkness. The snarl killed the eastern gods and was then trapped in a new world (as we all know). They built the humanoids after they trapped the snarl, but not at the same time as others. Then the gods put the humanoids in terrible places of the earth to make sure they dont take over cause there are more of them. They were used as easy xp and it went well till the dark one banded them all together, tried to negotiate, and was killed. He rose up a year later cause all the humanoids were killing everything for revenge. He learned of how they sabotaged the goblin race and he was angry!

Do you know what Spoilers are?

A lot of people reading this form haven't read Start of Darkness. You've just ruined the story for them. Good job!

[Finagle]

Almost sounds like some sort of throwback message about how D&D gamers always think the earlier editions are the best ones.

Nah, that's pure psychological projection (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection) on your part. Nobody was talking about this until you brought it up.

[BroomGuys]

Imagining a tweet:

Ugh, got completely annihilated by a god-killing monster. #firstworldproblems

*ducks*

[Leviting]

Template Stacking. You will eventually get epic level adjustments. Even if it makes no logical sense.

[looklikefrost]

Almost sounds like some sort of throwback message about how D&D gamers always think the earlier editions are the best ones. The 1st world had the best RP, and the best experience, and everything was so awesome. Which is pretty much what everyone says about the last editions of D&D "Oh 2nd Edition was so much better for RP then 3rd Edition. It was a better experience and everything was awesome." or "Oh 3.5 was so much greater then 4th edition, the RP was better and we had way more fun!".

This looks better..

http://dailydigitaldeals.info/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/11/10/buy.gif

[NihhusHuotAliro]

[QUOTE=SavageWombat;17250824]They didn't invent experience points until world 2.0. Until they agreed on the need for a more robust rule set, they were playing under sort of a Free Kriegspiel kind of system, much like yelling "I shot you! You're dead!"

/what do kids play now instead of Cowboys and Indians anyway?[QUOTE]

we still play that.

[ /[SP OIL ER]

ttextt ttextt ttext[/ SP OIL ER]

Remove the spaces and replace ttextt ttextt ttextt with what you want to spoil.

EDIT: OH hey, it's the twelfth!

[ReaderAt2046]

Probably the gods created people with levels to start out with, just like Adam was created as a grown-up.

[Khay]

I'd be very careful about placing too much importance on small details in the Crayons of Time content. In both narratives we get, key points are based on third- or fourth-hand-information, and both stories have been filtered through at least one character with an agenda. We do get some circumstantial evidence that seems to confirm parts of each narrative, but it's nothing conclusive.

And hey, not having monstrous humanoids doesn't mean there are no low-level monsters. Who has never been on a quest that involved killing ten rats in the tavern cellar?

[Bulldog Psion]

Frankly, the entire thing about the low level humanoids is illogical, which is why I suspect it's at least partly propaganda, if not a whole-cloth lie by the Dark One. In D&D games I've played, giant rats, stirges, human bandits, and even stuff like wolves and bears are just as common as humanoids as opponents, if not more so. It would be very easy to level up in the absence of humanoids, in a RAW world.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Frankly, the entire thing about the low level humanoids is illogical, which is why I suspect it's at least partly propaganda, if not a whole-cloth lie by the Dark One. In D&D games I've played, giant rats, stirges, human bandits, and even stuff like wolves and bears are just as common as humanoids as opponents, if not more so. It would be very easy to level up in the absence of humanoids, in a RAW world.

I don't think I've ever noticed that before. After all, you're right, there are other ways to level up, and even if there are only higher level creatures, there are other ways to gain XP. Yet, according to Redcloak's story, the divine casters weren't getting any levels at all. Although, it is still possible that the gods created the humanoids for their clerics to level up faster, as opposed to so the clerics could level up at all, but perhaps they had reasons other from what the Dark One claims. Of course, in the end the goblins still seem to have gotten the short straw of life. :smallfrown:

[factotum]

perhaps they had reasons other from what the Dark One claims. Of course, in the end the goblins still seem to have gotten the short straw of life. :smallfrown:

An evil God wants to give his worshippers a reason to fight? Darn right he'd lie about anything and everything! I suspect the truth about why the goblinoids are always on the margins is simply that they're not as good as humans, elves, dwarves etc. at taking and holding territory, but Redcloak wouldn't have gone to the effort he's gone through if he believed that, so the Dark One gave him something else to believe instead.

[Khay]

There is some evidence for what Redcloak/the Dark One claims. Look at how the Western Continent is set up (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0680.html) - the elves get a lush forest up north, which is protected by an impassable mountain range, and the lizardfolk (and to a lesser extent humans) are left to fight over the scraps. It's the same with Southern Lands. I'll spoiler it because this is based on bonus content from War & XPs. It's possible that this is a coincidence, or the hobgoblins'/lizardfolks' own fault, but it's a strange coincidence to be sure.

The travel guide makes it clear that Azure City is located in a highly defensible location, with easy access to freshwater, the oceans, tillable soil, steel and so on. The hobgoblins are all crammed into a small landlocked valley surrounded by rough terrain on all sides, and the only path to Azure City leads past the fortress-town of Blueriver Fort, which is also in an easily defensible location. Without Xykon and Redcloak, the hobgoblins would never ever have been able to expand into more desirable lands. Of course, Azure City does not grant citizenship to anyone without human blood.

This is all going off-topic, though. Point is, there's really no reason that a lack of monstrous humanoids would mean everyone would have to be first level; there's plenty of space non-humanoid monsters. (And evil humans/elves/dwarves/gnomes/what-have-you, for that matter.) If the Dark One is even slightly right, the gods are jerks.

[ReaderAt2046]

If the Dark One is even slightly right, the gods are jerks.

We already knew that just from what we see in SoD.

[factotum]

There is some evidence for what Redcloak/the Dark One claims. Look at how the Western Continent is set up (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0680.html) - the elves get a lush forest up north, which is protected by an impassable mountain range, and the lizardfolk (and to a lesser extent humans) are left to fight over the scraps.

The only problem there is that the Elves didn't have gods of their own until a fair while after the world's creation, so why would they get special treatment? I think this is one case where it *is* just a coincidence that the Elves managed to find themselves the choicest bit of real estate in the Western Continent to live in.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

We already knew that just from what we see in SoD.

That's his point. If what we see in SoD is even a little true, then the gods are huge jerks.

[Flame of Anor]

Also, they liked to climb trees, use rope, make boats, catch fish, and do all sort of other things that aren't fighting.

Did they have...*gasp*...nonweapon proficiencies?!?


Do you know what Spoilers are?

A lot of people reading this form haven't read Start of Darkness. You've just ruined the story for them. Good job!

And now your own post contains those same spoilers, unconcealed. They'll still be there even if Drake2009 edits his post. You've just ruined the story for those people, too. Good job!

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Did they have...*gasp*...nonweapon proficiencies?!?

Yes.

In fact, they engaged in dance-offs with Giant Spiders for XP. In fact, they became allies with the Kobolds (trap masters, amazing miners); over a shared hate of the Gnomes. Also, they rode Basilisks, and used Basilisks to turn trees to stone, which would then be destroyed by the grey ooze.

THe first world had a focus on altering an environment to your advantage (with all those commoner skills) and making it a perfect trap. Green Slime was a favorite.

Purple Worms were also domesticated, because of their tunnel-making capacities for the kobold-human side.

In fact, a commoner who had completely mastered the art of knowing plants could brew the dreaded Yellow Mold and use it to fend off the dwarven tunnels.

Ochre Jelly was a player character race, but it was removed for being OP.

In fact, rather than DUngeons and Dragons, it was "Oubliettes and Ogres".

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I think Kobolds were created in the second world.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Can't be.

They were in the very original 1974 boxed set, from what I've heard.

Older than the thief class, I think.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Can't be.

They were in the very original 1974 boxed set, from what I've heard.

Older than the thief class, I think.

:smallconfused: Are we still talking about OOTS?

[NihhusHuotAliro]

(That's the joke. I'm confusing the "first world" of Original Dungeons and Dragons with the "first world" of OOTS, which clearly didn't have kobolds. I'm joking about the weird continuity in how in the Dave Arneson memorial strip, blackmoor is called one of the very first worlds, and it talks about the book of Odad (Original Dngeons and Dragons).

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0644.html)

(If you take 644 as canon, then the first world would be the unnamed world of Original Dungeons and Dragons, which had kobolds but not a thief class (it had only Fighter, Wizard, and Cleric). So, kobolds were in the first world of this comic.)

(If 644 is non-canon, than the first world is the one created by Zeus, Hera, and everyone else, which had no Kobolds).

It's a continuity, dare I say it, Snarl.

(It's a joke, like claiming that Elan really becoms invisible when he is naked. It's a joke taking something literally that should probably not be taken literally. Sorry, I'm bad at humor.)

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Ah, I get it now. Forgive me for my previous lack of understanding.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

It's alright, Jaxzan. (:

[Kish]

I don't remember any kobolds in Basic D&D. I remember goblins but not kobolds.
'Course, that doesn't prove they weren't there; I last read the Basic books a while ago (and I wasn't scrutinizing them for the presence or absence of kobolds anyway).