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celtois
2007-02-04, 05:49 PM
Bardic Adventurer PRC

After spending all that time with Rouges these Bards have begun to pick up some Rouge abilities
Requirements:
Able to use bard song at least once a day
BAB +5
Can use Suggestion ability or cast the spell Suggestion
able to cast 2nd level arcane spells

HD:D6
Skill Points Per level 8+int modifier


Class Skills
all skills on the bard and rogue list
the bardic adventurer is so talented he can learn almost anything

Dashing Strike (Ex): You may add your Charisma modifier instead of your strength modifier to attack and damage rolls. (you can't use this and weapon finess they don't work together)
Run Away (Su): As a free action, you can expend one use of your bardic music ability to double your base speed and the base speeds of all your allies within 60 ft. of you. This effect lasts for 1 round plus 1 round per level of bard and bardic adventurer, up to a maximum of 15 rounds.
Blinding Words (Ex): As a free action, you can expend a use of your bardic music ability and choose a target. You gain a dodge bonus equal to your Charisma modifier against that creature. The targeted creature must make a Will save against your Perform (oratory),(vocal),(comedy) or Bluff check. On a failure it must attack you on its next turn, provoking attacks of opportunity from all creatures threatening it. You can only target one creature at a time with this ability, and each creature can only be that target of this ability once per encounter. This is a sound-based, language-dependent, mind-affecting effect.
Can't Hit Me (Ex): If you move before you attack, you gain a dodge bonus equal to your Charisma modifier. This effect doesn't stack with the effect of blinding words.

well what do you think all the other abilities are from the Rogue class

Thoughts improvements etc.
how can should I change this for balance

Can anybody tell me how to make a chart I can't seem to find out how

Thanks for the table here it is for easier legibility

{table="head"]LVL|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special|Spells
1|+0|+0|+2|+2|Evasion, Trap-finding|as +1 lvl of bard
2|+1|+0|+2|+2|Dashing Strike|as +1 lvl of bard
3|+2|+1|+3|+3|Trap Sense +1|as +1 lvl of bard
4|+3|+1|+3|+3|Run Away|as +1 lvl of bard
5|+3|+1|+4|+4|Blinding Words|as +1 lvl of bard
6|+4|+2|+4|+4|Trap Sense +2|as +1 lvl of bard
7|+5|+2|+5|+5|Can't Hit Me|as +1 lvl of bard
8|+6|+2|+5|+5|Slippery Mind|as +1 lvl of bard
9|+6|+3|+6|+6|Trap Sense +3|as +1 lvl of bard
10|+7|+3|+6|+6|Improved Evasion|as +1 lvl of bard[/table]

levels of bardic adventure stack with bard for determining uses per day of the bard song ability,
bardic knowledge checks and the suggestion ability

celtois
2007-02-04, 07:25 PM
how am I supposed to improve the class if nobody will tell me how

Lord Iames Osari
2007-02-04, 08:30 PM
Firstly, it's "rogue", not "rouge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10445)".

I'm not sure what you mean by "Suggestion" under the requirements. Also, I don't think that being a bard should be a prerequisite.

Edit: As for a table...

{table="head"]LVL|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special|Spells
1|+0|+2|+5|+5|Evasion, Trap-finding|as +1 lvl of bard
2|+1|+2|+5|+5|Dashing Strike|as +1 lvl of bard
3|+2|+2|+6|+6|Trap Sense +1|as +1 lvl of bard
4|+3|+3|+6|+6|Run Away|as +1 lvl of bard
5|+3|+3|+7|+7|Blinding Words|as +1 lvl of bard
6|+4|+3|+7|+7|Trap Sense +2|as +1 lvl of bard
7|+5|+4|+8|+8|Can't Hit Me|as +1 lvl of bard
8|+6|+4|+8|+8|Slippery Mind|as +1 lvl of bard
9|+6|+4|+9|+9|Trap Sense +3|as +1 lvl of bard
10|+7|+5|+9|+9|Improved Evasion|as +2 lvl's of bard[/table]

celtois
2007-02-04, 08:32 PM
Changed to Rogue

Lord Iames Osari
2007-02-04, 08:38 PM
Added a table to my post above.

More issues: Your save progression is off. PrCs start off granting +2 to their good saves and +0 to their poor saves just like everyone else.

Also, they shouldn't be getting +2 caster levels at 10th. Just no.

celtois
2007-02-04, 08:51 PM
ooops posted twice

celtois
2007-02-04, 08:58 PM
okay I changed it back to my original save and spell progression
instead of the improved over powered one are any of my abilities
overpowered sorry this is my first PRC so it probably needs some help

celtois
2007-02-04, 09:14 PM
Firstly, it's "rogue", not "rouge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10445)".

I'm not sure what you mean by "Suggestion" under the requirements. Also, I don't think that being a bard should be a prerequisite.

Edit: As for a table...

{table="head"]LVL|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special|Spells
1|+0|+2|+5|+5|Evasion, Trap-finding|as +1 lvl of bard
2|+1|+2|+5|+5|Dashing Strike|as +1 lvl of bard
3|+2|+2|+6|+6|Trap Sense +1|as +1 lvl of bard
4|+3|+3|+6|+6|Run Away|as +1 lvl of bard
5|+3|+3|+7|+7|Blinding Words|as +1 lvl of bard
6|+4|+3|+7|+7|Trap Sense +2|as +1 lvl of bard
7|+5|+4|+8|+8|Can't Hit Me|as +1 lvl of bard
8|+6|+4|+8|+8|Slippery Mind|as +1 lvl of bard
9|+6|+4|+9|+9|Trap Sense +3|as +1 lvl of bard
10|+7|+5|+9|+9|Improved Evasion|as +2 lvl's of bard[/table]

the bard level 6 Suggestion ability well I made bard a requirement because
it use bard songs for the run away ability and it is the bardic adventurer

who learned from getting pointers from rouges and eventually specializing

Korias
2007-02-04, 09:26 PM
Ok. For your requirements I see a blinding Error.

You have "Bard" listed.

So what does that mean? just one level of bard? ONLY levels in bard?

Never do that. Its a very questionable pre-req. Instead, select a feature of the Bard class ( Like the Bardic Music Ability) and put that in instead.

Lord Iames Osari
2007-02-04, 09:26 PM
Your abilities need to be reworded; it's very hard to decipher them. Also, I'd suggest the following mechanical changes.

Dashing Strike (Ex): You may add your Charisma modifier to attack and damage rolls.
Run Away (Su): As a standard action, you can expend one use of your bardic music ability to double your base speed and the base speeds of all your allies within 60 ft. of you. This effect lasts for 1 round plus 1 round per level of bard and bardic adventurer, up to a maximum of 15 rounds.
Blinding Words (Ex): As a standard action, you can expend a use of your bardic music ability and choose a target. You gain a dodge bonus equal to your Charisma modifier against that creature. The targeted creature must make a Will save against your Perform (oratory) or Bluff check. On a faiure it must attack you on its next turn, provoking attacks of opportunity from all creatures threatening it. You can only target one creature at a time with this ability, and each creature can only be that target of this ability once per encounter. This is a sound-based, language-dependent, mind-affecting effect.
Can't Hit Me (Ex): If you move before you attack, you gain a dodge bonus equal to your Charisma modifier. This effect doesn't stack with the effect of blinding words.

celtois
2007-02-04, 09:27 PM
you must have at least on level of bard

that works out much better I'll reword them as you have

hows that make more sense

anything else

celtois
2007-02-05, 08:11 PM
well should I change anything else

celtois
2007-02-05, 09:20 PM
bump bump bump what do I need to change

celtois
2007-02-06, 08:46 AM
bump bump bump

Khantalas
2007-02-06, 08:51 AM
I have no idea. My own PrCs need reviewing, too, and I suck at game balance.

However, I can think of something to take from this. The class skills. Unless a class is based on skills, like Exemplar is, or about learning everything and has mid-class pre-requisites to show that, like the one from Planar Handbook it won't give the entire skill list.

It even says so in the DMG II.

celtois
2007-02-06, 09:00 AM
Well I'll exclude a few skills but they have all the skills on the bard and rogue list so thats almost all of them thanks for the advice

Telonius
2007-02-06, 09:26 AM
Okay, very nice. I'd also add in that levels in this PrC stack with Bard levels for determining daily uses of Bardic Music, Bardic Knowledge checks, and the Bard's Suggestion ability. Personally I'd say that it should use the Rogue's skill list plus Perform, but there really aren't many skills that one class has that the other doesn't; so I suppose that's okay.

As for balance, this looks good. The Bard would only lose a couple abilities if he went Bard10/Bardic Adventurer10. I really like the fact that this does NOT confer sneak attack dice; that would be a little too much. There's nothing too overpowered here. The Bard doesn't lose caster progression - also good.

The one potential problem I can see is that this PrC might make the Rogue kind of extraneous at higher levels. Except for Sneak Attacking, anything the Rogue can do, this PrC can do just as well; and, it can cast spells and use shields. But if you're building one from the ground up, you're still going to need a trapfinder until you take a level in Bardic Adventurer. So I'd give this a qualified okay.

celtois
2007-02-06, 09:56 AM
thanks I see the but shields give arcane spell failure so they are a less useful
addition and sneak attack out does the charismatic strike and the rogue has uncanny dodge which to a rouge with high dex is as good as my abilities so the only advantages are spells and my song and this is a PRC meant to be better than a base class something to work towards so I agree It is pretty well balanced

celtois
2007-02-06, 06:08 PM
bump bump bump

Lord Iames Osari
2007-02-06, 06:50 PM
It looks good now.

celtois
2007-02-06, 07:17 PM
thanks I think I've finally tweaked enough to be fair any ways if somebody could play test it that would be great

sigurd
2007-02-06, 07:37 PM
So its only bardic spell progression hm... Cant make a wizard that would suck up all the skill points and abilities and continue with wizards spells hm....


oh well

Sigurd

celtois
2007-02-06, 10:31 PM
It is the bardic adventurer

celtois
2007-02-07, 06:44 PM
well IT appears not everyone agrees I spoke to some other people and they told me it is really unbalanced

Lord Iames Osari
2007-02-07, 06:46 PM
Did they give you specifics?

celtois
2007-02-07, 10:32 PM
they said they where better than a rogue of the same level plus they had spells
that was the gist of it

Lord Iames Osari
2007-02-07, 10:42 PM
Well, this is clearly meant for bards, so...

The earliest a bard can qualify is at 7th level, which means that he'll be 8th level once he takes the 1st level of this class.

the 8th level rogue is getting Imp Uncanny Dodge and sneak attacking for +4d6.

I don't think your friends know quite what they're talking about. Either that, or they didn't think the comparison through enough. I personally think it's fine.

celtois
2007-02-23, 10:05 PM
thanks Oh well I guess I'm done unless theres anything else