What's so great about a Spiked Chain?

[Oddman80]

I'm new to DnD (incl. 3.5), and i have been researching like mad this past week. My Character is a Half-Orc Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian with Whirling Frenzy Variant Rage-type ability.

Everyting I have read talks about how great the spiked chain is as a weapon - due to its extended reach - but it seams to have pretty dinky damage at 2d4/x2, compared to a Greatsword or Heavy Flail with 2d6 (19-20)/x2, or 1d10 (19-20)/x2.

Considering I would need to spend a feat to use the spiked chain (EWP), wouldn't I be better off using that EWP feat on a Fullblade w/ its 2d10 (19-20)/x2, then bumping its reach up to 10' through a +1 Elastic Enchantment?

Either way, I would need to pick up Combat Reflexes tot truly take advantage of the greater pool of AoO's.

Am I missing something? Is the greater damage capability not that important?

[Squirrel_Dude]

The spiked chain is great because it allows you to both hit adjacent targets, as well as count as having reach. It's also counts as two handed for the 1 1/2 strength bonus to damage and other modifiers/feats based off of that, and the user can drop the chain on a failed trip attempt.

Don't sweat base weapon damage too much. Your strength damage is going to pretty quickly outpace it. Crit range/multiplier is more important.

[Sian]

Because it can also target enemies closer than reach so it can both hit 5" and 10"

[Ketiara]

well a lot of your dmg will come from extra damage from strength etc. The dice rolls is only a small part of it.

But the reach AND adjacent reach you get from the spiked chain along with bonus to trip makes it very versatile. And even worth the feat.

[eggynack]

Tripping is also relevant, in addition to what's been listed. Really, minor differences in weapon damage is irrelevant to overall melee potency, primarily because your other damage sources are so much greater. You should probably pick up wolf totem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wolfTotemClassFeatures ), incidentally, for incredibly cheap access to improved trip, at least if you exit barbarian early. Anyway, the threatened squares is the most relevant factor, though realistically, just having reach is enough for most purposes. To that end, if you don't want to spend a feat, I'd advise using a guisarme. You lose the ability to hit adjacent opponents, but you can get armor spikes for that, and there's not much else in the way of difference between the two. A spiked chain is significantly better, don't get me wrong, but a guisarme plus a feat might be better than a spiked chain.

[Knaight]

Everyting I have read talks about how great the spiked chain is as a weapon - due to its extended reach - but it seams to have pretty dinky damage at 2d4/x2, compared to a Greatsword or Heavy Flail with 2d6 (19-20)/x2, or 1d10 (19-20)/x2.

The average damage with a spiked chain is 5, before accounting for strength or criticals. A greatsword has a whopping 7, and a Heavy Flail 5.5. These are really small differences, particularly when the bulk of damage comes from things like Strength (for instance, Strength 18 is +6 damage for any of these weapons, and Strength 30 is +15 damage), Power attack (2 per point lost, before any of the ways to improve it), etc. Size increases do somewhat expand the damage gap, but they also increase the range effects

In exchange for losing a bit of damage, you gain reach without losing the ability to hit nearby targets, trip capability, a disarm bonus, and the ability to use it as a finesse weapon, though that is kind of useless. It's a pretty good trade. Plus, D&D doesn't model the big issue with such a weapon - as weapons don't improve AC (even though they really should), the extent to which a spiked weapon is a terrible thing to try and block with is safely ignored.

[hemming]

What source is the elastic enhancement? I looked around for it and only found a Dnd wiki entry for a homebrew. If that is what you are using and homebrew is accepted, then sure

Base dice damage doesn't mean a whole lot to you once you begin gaining many bonuses and enhancements (The old "1D12 + 64, I hope he rolls a 1" scenario comes into play) - if you are using power attack w/ a high strength damage, the benefits of a potential extra 4 damage from a D12 are generally not thought to outweigh the benefits of reach, adjacent attack and maneuver bonuses

[PaucaTerrorem]

And don't forget the +2 to disarm

[hemming]

I would also contend the full blade stats here - the Arms & Equipment version is 2d8. Having never been updated for 3.5, there is also some question as to whether the full blade should be treated as a Large Bastard Sword or if the EWP from 3.0 should negate size requirements in the description

[Oddman80]

What source is the elastic enhancement? I looked around for it and only found a Dnd wiki entry for a homebrew. If that is what you are using and homebrew is accepted, then sure

I didn't realize that +1 Elastic was Homebrew and not from some random (yet official) supplement. I must have seen it on dnd-wiki and not given it a second thought. I had been searching for options to enhance reach without needing to take a hit to base damage - When i saw the +1 Elastic, it seemed like a nice alternate to the whole "Abberation Blood" / "Inhuman Reach" combo that would disfigure the player to a monstrous degree... but double the effective reach.

My DM did say some homebrew was ok... I might ask about the enchantment. It seemed like since its a magic-based reach, I would still be able to fight adjacent foes, but have an effective reach range of 5-10 ft.

[Oddman80]

I would also contend the full blade stats here - the Arms & Equipment version is 2d8. Having never been updated for 3.5, there is also some question as to whether the full blade should be treated as a Large Bastard Sword or if the EWP from 3.0 should negate size requirements in the description

Yeah... i've seen those discussion threads as well... Given that I just found out the +1 Elastic was homebrew anyway, I guess it will be up to my DM. But assuming there is no -2 penalty, it seemed like a pretty sweet combo - it would lose the disarm and tripping capabilities for higher base damage. But i am getting from all these other posts that the 2000 Gold i'd spend on the +1 Bonus isn't worth the extra +2 to base attack, and I should just go with spiked chain... I don't want to be limited to 10', as is the case with the guisearm, so i suppose the spiked chain is the way to go...

Now - planning ahead, is the +1 Valorous the way to go on it when i can afford it, or are there better enhancements given my build?

[Shining Wrath]

The Spiked Chain is the only weapon with both reach and the ability to hit the square next to you. On top of that, you can use Weapon Finesse if you are a high-dex fighter rather than a high-str fighter. On top of that, it gives bonuses to trip and disarm.

If you can qualify as size Large (e.g., Goliath w/powerful build) and use a Large spiked chain, you can attack every square within 20' of you. With some appropriate feats (Combat Reflexes, Stand Still) you can render a 45' x 45' square impassable.

[eggynack]

If you can qualify as size Large (e.g., Goliath w/powerful build) and use a Large spiked chain, you can attack every square within 20' of you. With some appropriate feats (Combat Reflexes, Stand Still) you can render a 45' x 45' square impassable.
This is an uncertain thing. In particular, the spiked chain specifically notes that it allows you to attack adjacent squares, and reach+large lets you attack squares either 15 or 20 feet away, but that leaves an annoying and somewhat illogical blank spot at 10 feet away. I think the last time this came up, we settled on ambiguous, leaning towards the worse reading.

[Oddman80]

This is an uncertain thing. In particular, the spiked chain specifically notes that it allows you to attack adjacent squares, and reach+large lets you attack squares either 15 or 20 feet away, but that leaves an annoying and somewhat illogical blank spot at 10 feet away. I think the last time this came up, we settled on ambiguous, leaning towards the worse reading.

And while interesting, this will most likely be moot for my campaign as there is minimal magic use among the adventuring party (Barbarian, Monk, Rogue, & Cloistered Cleric). Not sure if any of them would be able to cast the required spell for that effect.

Thanks Everyone.

[Talya]

The Spiked Chain is the only weapon with both reach and the ability to hit the square next to you. On top of that, you can use Weapon Finesse if you are a high-dex fighter rather than a high-str fighter. On top of that, it gives bonuses to trip and disarm.

If you can qualify as size Large (e.g., Goliath w/powerful build) and use a Large spiked chain, you can attack every square within 20' of you. With some appropriate feats (Combat Reflexes, Stand Still) you can render a 45' x 45' square impassable.

The size category of the weapon used has no effect on reach, only the size category of the creature using it. Powerful Build also explicitly does not affect reach:


However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size.

[hemming]

I didn't realize that +1 Elastic was Homebrew and not from some random (yet official) supplement. I must have seen it on dnd-wiki and not given it a second thought. I had been searching for options to enhance reach without needing to take a hit to base damage - When i saw the +1 Elastic, it seemed like a nice alternate to the whole "Abberation Blood" / "Inhuman Reach" combo that would disfigure the player to a monstrous degree... but double the effective reach.

My DM did say some homebrew was ok... I might ask about the enchantment. It seemed like since its a magic-based reach, I would still be able to fight adjacent foes, but have an effective reach range of 5-10 ft.

Its a very powerful enhancement - if your DM allows it, then go with it!

DnD wiki is somewhat notorious for including homebrew (and not always accurately labeling) - user beware

[Oddman80]

Its a very powerful enhancement - if your DM allows it, then go with it!

DnD wiki is somewhat notorious for including homebrew (and not always accurately labeling) - user beware

Yeah - but now I'm thinking it should be a Spiked Chain +1 Elastic, giving a the chain a 0-15 ft reach in any direction, allowing my character to control a 35'x35' square.

[Captnq]

Go to my sig. Get the EVD. Go to the combat section. Look up the weapon. Read the comments. Go to the Weapon Special Ability section. Read the starting section where I break down the various methods of combining WSAs to make cool weapons. Have fun.

[ddude987]

The size category of the weapon used has no effect on reach, only the size category of the creature using it. Powerful Build also explicitly does not affect reach:

True but the goliath barbarian racial substitution makes you actually large when raging, which is a viable way increase range as a goliath.

[Sian]

The Spiked Chain is the only weapon with both reach and the ability to hit the square next to you

Wrong. Spinning Sword from Secrets of Salona is basicly a one-handed Spiked Chain

[sleepyphoenixx]

There's also the Kusari-Gama (DMG), Manriki-Gusari (OA), Drow Scorpion Chain (SoX) and another chain in savage species. The Kusari-Gama is a light weapon, The Manriki-Gusari is bludgeoning, the Drow Scorpion Chain is slashing and has one or two feats associated with it. They also differ slightly in damage dice but that's rarely significant, so it comes down to flavor or having spells/abilities that synergize with a specific damage type.

The only other notable reach weapon is the Duom(DComp) since it's a martial reach weapon that can attack adjacent targets.
You take a -2 to attack rolls if you attack more than one target in a single round and it lacks the tripping and disarm options but it does save you a feat.

[ddude987]

I believe it has been said before it is the only core reach weapon that hits next to you, and that may have gotten construed. Anyhow, I'd say it is certainly the best reach weapon that also hits next to you.

[Coidzor]

Reach & can attack adjacent targets, Finessable, 2-Handed(for Power Attack multiplier), Tripping, and Disarming.

The only really other Finessable Two-handed weapons are one or two things like the Elven Courtblade? Greatblade? So if you're focused on Dexterity(for attacks of opportunity) then you can also use Dex for your to-hit and rely solely upon Power Attack for the damage.

At each level past 1st, the base damage dice become less and less important in comparison to flat bonuses to damage, especially those which interact with power attack(and its multipliers), which is part of why the Monk Unarmed Strike damage progression isn't quite as good as it seems at first glance, for instance.


There's also the Kusari-Gama (DMG), Manriki-Gusari (OA), Drow Scorpion Chain (SoX) and another chain in savage species. The Kusari-Gama is a light weapon, The Manriki-Gusari is bludgeoning, the Drow Scorpion Chain is slashing and has one or two feats associated with it. They also differ slightly in damage dice but that's rarely significant, so it comes down to flavor or having spells/abilities that synergize with a specific damage type.

The only other notable reach weapon is the Duom(DComp) since it's a martial reach weapon that can attack adjacent targets.
You take a -2 to attack rolls if you attack more than one target in a single round and it lacks the tripping and disarm options but it does save you a feat.

IIRC, there are also the Dragon Chains from Red Hand of Doom which allow the user to use the weapon to grapple opponents and use a version of Constrict.

[Lord Vukodlak]

In short the Spiked Chain is made of win.

[Grayson01]

The Spiked Chain is the only weapon with both reach and the ability to hit the square next to you. On top of that, you can use Weapon Finesse if you are a high-dex fighter rather than a high-str fighter. On top of that, it gives bonuses to trip and disarm.

If you can qualify as size Large (e.g., Goliath w/powerful build) and use a Large spiked chain, you can attack every square within 20' of you. With some appropriate feats (Combat Reflexes, Stand Still) you can render a 45' x 45' square impassable.

The Whip and Whip Dagger also does this.